Long term reader, first time poster but have been writing and re-writing posts over and over to get the perfect one - I'm just going to go for it this time!
I really needed to rant and also to ask, how do the rest of you cope? I try to be idealistic but sometimes (including tonight after a long and fruitless argument with some supposedly liberal men) I feel as if ending misogyny and sexism is hopeless. Does anybody else feel like this? What do you do to cope with it? There are times when I just don't know how I'm supposed to live in a world that is so set up against women.
I have had debate after debate with my boyfriend (who identifies as a liberal progressive democrat) about rape and victim blaming. He spews many of the victim blaming myths and no matter what evidence I offer to show how rape is always the fault of the perpetrator, he won't back down. This is the same for all of his friends. I don't understand how people who can be so liberal in some areas are so sexist (and often downright misogynist) in others.
Men's rights organisations are another group that take away my hope. How can we end the problems of gender stereotyping and patriarchy when these groups are constantly reinforcing them and fighting us?
I'm sorry that I'm not going into much detail. I'm upset after having yet another argument about women's rights and having my view destroyed and belittled because I am a woman. I'm so frustrated and feel like I can't cope living in a world where I have to constantly fight and work harder then men to be taken equally seriously.
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This is a difficult question but I'll try to offer some advice/opinions.
First off, I think you need to pick your battles. You can't fight against every single thing you see or you'll be fighting constantly and never get anywhere.
Related to this, and I hope this comes across the way I intend, to certain extend having a little bit of apathy and acceptance is required. I find so at least. When I was younger I was so obsessed with alot of this stuff, constantly thinking about it, fighting it, reading about it, etc. I wasn't healthy. You can become almost suicidal when you do that! I had to finally take a step back and tone it down a bit and focus more of my time on other things and pick my battles a little more and then I became much happier. I AM NOT SAYING stop fighting or stop believing in what you believe. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying - sometimes you should go home, read a book or watch a movie or whatever and just plain not think about it. So you can stay sane.
I also make an effort to surround myself with people who are as like minded as possible. Sometimes you need to purge certain friends or even family members because of their attitudes in order to cope better. It can't be completely done because you have work, certain family members, etc. that can't be avoided - but even still you can make an effort to avoid the worst offenders.
I also like to look at all the good stuff. Look at the good stuff in this world. Compare our situation now to how it was 20 or 50 years ago. Or to how it is in other countries and it will make you feel better, it does for me at least.
I dunno, I could say so much more but this is already a long post. Maybe I'll add more later. Just try to stay positive, try to avoid the worst offenders, and try to take at least some occasions to just forget about all this stuff and enjoy yourself, even if it means temporarily ignoring what you see around you.
And never forget that no matter how bad things may seem right now - they used to be alot worse. Big progress has been made. I feel progress is slowing now - but only because of how far we've come. Look forward to a future (even it's a future generation...) where hopefully alot of these issues are resolved.
Hey, I can totally empathize. I have felt like that often as well! I have found it vital that in order to be helpful to any movement I need to find ways that re-charge me in a positive, hopeful way as well as in a pissed off, vengeance kind of way. Kind of like a balance.
One way I do that is to make sure I schedule in some time to spend with my feminist friends. Time where I don't have to worry about hearing things that drain me. Also, I work with young girls. In a world full of misogyny, hatred and double standards, I find their courage, intellect and actions inspiring beyond belief.
Finally, when I am starting to feel hopeless, drained and angry beyond action, I have identified who and what in my life I need to avoid for awhile. Like Bill O'Reilly, Glen Beck or even just the obliviously privileged dude across the hall.
I can relate to this - I have been going through a struggle getting my longtime boyfriend to understand and accept my feminism (which I'm relatively new to).
Here is what I've learned and what advice I can offer: don't give up or get discouraged! Its extremely hard when you are finding your feminist voice to share that with others. It took me a long time to clarify my thoughts, perfect my arguments and be able to give people a clear and concise criticism.
Also, I have been finding that my experience is SOOOO different from my boyfriends that I can't even believe it sometimes. I was telling him about Jessica's book, the Purity Myth, and talking about its implications, but I found out he didn't even understand the "be sexy...but be pure" crazy mixed messages that we give our girls thing. To me that was so basic and obvious from my experience that I overlooked the fact that he might not have heard or felt that message like me. We, as girls growing up, saw and internalized these messages...so they are like second nature sometimes. To me they are plain and obvious as day, but he is not aware.
So...take it slow. Start simple...things that he can't reject. I actually showed my boyfriend some of the posts here on Feministing about vintage ads that are just blatantly sexist and then said, look at ads now....not as blatant but the SAME message and sexism can be found in both ads! Or...he really understood the video Killing Us Softly (google it) and that made some things click for him.
Also, make sure he doesn't feel that you are attacking him when commenting on sexism. Even if he does/says something sexist, I always say, "I know you didn't mean it like this..." or something.
Finally, don't give up! Keep reading, learning, talking about it, etc. Eventually it will click and your arguments will come together and BAM - he won't be able to refute them!
I identify with Wonderwall. I only realized I am a feminist less than a year ago, and at first I was upset because I thought my boyfriend had sexist and misogynist tendencies. Don't get me wrong, he treats me as an equal and we have an amazingly balanced relationship. However, some things he thought were funny, I found incredibly sexist and upsetting. Once I explained why these things upset me, he started looking more for sexism in the things around him. It's amazing to see him making the connections. Almost every day he explains a situation to me in which he recognized something as sexist, victim blaming, misogynist...etc.
I think a lot of the problem is that we, as women, understand what it feels like to be oppressed, and we as feminists can see why certain videos, ads, etc, are degrading to women. My boyfriend had never been exposed to the feminist line of thinking. Where we, reading books like The Purity Myth, have learned to view the world this way, he had never been conditioned to consider certain things in a feminist light. Now that I have exposed him (and continue to expose him) to how much sexism is present in so much of our society, he is seeing it more in his every day life and beginning to understand why I get so worked up. I asked if he might like to read The Purity Myth, because it would probably explain my views better than I can (being a fledgling feminist), and he has agreed because he knows how much feminism means to me. The book will also give him a better idea of who I am and how I think.
It is this dedication he shows for wanting to understand me that makes me know that deep down, my boyfriend is not a misogynist or a sexist; it is merely the male entitlement he has been conditioned to believe in that made him originally not understand where I was coming from. Ever so slowly, he is fighting that feeling of male entitlement.
Sorry this is such a long post, but what I'm trying to get at is that your boyfriend, if he is dedicated to you, will at least try to understand your views. Hopefully this will lead him to admit the presence of sexism and misogyny in our culture. (You may want to ask him to read something such as The Purity Myth and see how he reacts.) If he continues to disagree and say things that hurt you, I agree with Honeybee...it's best to not surround yourself with people who hurt you and other women. It causes a constant upsetting feeling that can be too difficult to deal with.
OP here. Thank you for your comments, I really agree about sometimes just distancing myself from the sources of anger and hurt and just taking a break. I find that I'm much more aware of examples of sexism now than I used to be, especially as I have become increasingly more involved in women studies and have been reading more feminist literature than before. Don't get me wrong though, I'm really glad to be more aware and will continue to try and increase this awareness. However, I need to learn how to not let this bring me down to the point where I just feel frustrated and helpless.
you post actually prompted me to post my first post...on the "Five Stages of Feminism"
Lets look forward to that "peace and understanding" part! :)
Keep your head up!!! I get overwhelmed all the time. I am a huge sports fan and feel that I expose myself to a ridiculous amount of misogynistic crap and thus feel that nothing will ever change... but I know this is not the case.
Social change is a slow, winding road and we can't let day to day bullshit get us off track.
-S
I agree with Honeybee (and the others).
I do not wish to upset you, but I will add that you are too woman-centric. If I may, let me explain...
"I'm upset [...] having my view destroyed and belittled because I am a woman." I am struck by the link you make. Your view is almost certainly based on what you observe and experience as a woman. However, you should not believe that your view is the only valid one. Do not start by thinking that your boyfrind's poinr of view or opinion is any less worthy or valuable simply because he sees things differently. A man's opinion is useful: it will allow you to see things from another angle, and to adapt your arguments to it.
It might also be wrong. But it will be wrong regardless of its origin.
That is my second point: opinions are sexless. Arguments are also sexless. You should remove the messenger from the equation and address the argument itself, only.
If something is wrong, it will remain wrong even if spouted by a woman. If it right, it is right even if a man says it.
From a broader perspective, try to accept that people who disagree with you are not (all?) idiotic, misogynistic, racist, sexist, uneducated or oblivious. If you can do that, you will find that their arguments will be less upsetting to you (for a start), and that, hey!, maybe they do have a point. And if they do, you will have gained alittle perspective.
Good luck!
Although I think I like the idea behind it, I'm not sure I buy that opinions are sexless. You mentioned that the OP's boyfriend's opinions may be different from the OP's because he has different experiences and observations in life- all of which are colored by the fact that he's male. This is not to say that his point of view is necessarily wrong because it's masculine, but I think what the OP is grappling with is that in a patriarchy, a masculine point of view is socially advantaged; it comes from a place of privilege. And you must admit that it's not uncommon for a woman's opinion to be dismissed simply because it is a woman's opinion, and not on the basis of its own (sexless?) merits.
But isn't the point that that is wrong? (to dismiss a women's opinion because it's from a woman).
What was posted is correct - if an opinion or fact or whatever is correct - it doesn't matter if a man or woman said it. If it's wrong - it doesn't matter if a woman or man said it.
In fact it's pretty much the point of feminism to espouse this...
"What was posted is correct - if an opinion or fact or whatever is correct - it doesn't matter if a man or woman said it. If it's wrong - it doesn't matter if a woman or man said it."
I used to think the same thing, but then I realized that thats not true. depth of understanding when saying what you say is imporrtant, not just saying something. I can say racism is wrong but a s a white person I dont know the full extent of the word or meaning of racism because I havent walked with it in life like someone of a non-white person has. I'm not that familiar with it. I dont know the full extent of its terrain like someone who experiences it on a daily basis. The extent of the truth that one is saying or supporting comes from knowing it. A guy cant fully know it as much as a woman.
I don't really understand what you are saying.
Well I guess I do, but I don't think it makes sense. Why do you have to know the full depth of something to be able to speak the truth?
I can say the sky is blue without being a scientist. It IS blue afterall. A white person can know racism is wrong without having experienced is to the same extent. They are still right - it is wrong. So I'm not really following you.
More like, I think, that we should recognise that just because an opinion is more prevalent among men, we shouldn't think of it as a "masculine opinion"; and similarly for opinions more prevalent among women. It echos the complaint of stereotyping, and probably entrenches us, rather than opens us to other ideas.
Beyond that; I have to wonder how problematic jargon is in talking to her boyfriend, and how much the way men are modelled in a lot of feminist discourse is a problem. I'll admit plainly that I'm far less open to an idea presented here when "men" in it are nothing like me, or men that I know; it shouldn't be surprising that people react negatively in the gut when you make claims about them (generally) their experience tells them is false (if only specifically).
With respect to jargon, (making some assumptions on my part) victim "blaming" is not really used the way I normally connotate "blame", so if you're not clear in the whole line of thinking, you may well disagree over choice of language, without disagreeing over substance. (Depends, depends, depends, of course, but one can entertain the position that a victim bears no ethical responsibility for their situation while still advocating eschewing risky behaviours; obviously there's a minefield given historical opinions, but I'm still not going to say we shouldn't tell children not to take rides from strangers, even if I might say we shouldn't have to tell children not to take rides from strangers (and even though that's a small risk compared to family members & whatnots)). I dunno, maybe they fundamentally disagree, and I'm just extrapolating from my own experience ... but barring useful data, all I have are valueless anecdotes. :(
Victim-blaming is NEVER useful. Never. I don't care if it comes out of a man, woman or alien, perpetuating rape myths is wrong.
Elixir, I feel so bad for you. I wish I could be there helping your boyfriend and his friends see where you are coming from, or vice versa! Unfortunately that's not possible.
I'm so skeptical that the boyfriend's point of view is the valid one because of the subject matter. The rape victim is never to blame for what happens to her, no matter what. It could be that, that is not what he means. But if that is what he means, I have a hard time seeing how he could be right.
I just want to say, I don't believe it's hopeless. So much progress has been made, and so much progress can be made still. Others generations have had it much worse. When I think about the suffragettes in England that faced hunger strikes, violence, and even suicide, simply to get the vote, I can't imagine such struggle in our generation. When I saw those Jeremiah Wright videos from last year, I could hardly imagine the place of bitterness that that pastor, who had been a US marine, could have harbored towards this country and its government. How could he have imagined that one of his own flock would be elected the President? Just hang in there.
Personally my first move would be to dump the boyfriend. If he accepts the rape myths then he's only a few steps away from being a rapist himself (rapists rarely actually think they have raped someone because of the myths that men believe).
Honest truth is that I can't talk to my brother about anything related to feminism... because the minute he hears the word "feminism" he conjures up all the stereotypes about feminism, and insists on arguing with me about why feminism as a whole is right or wrong, using the straw men about feminism he gets from Fox News (and his belief that socialism in any form is anti-American). Fortunately he doesn't really buy into the rape myths (he thinks that girls *shouldn't* do some stuff... but that it's still not right to have sex with them), but... he just. doesn't. get. it.
What I do to deal with it? I back off. I rant at my fiance (who is probably more feminist than I am), and just... forget about it until something reminds me. We need our safe spaces for our ideas.
One way to approach your brother may be to personalise the issue - ask how he would feel if, for example, you his sister, were raped and then blamed for it? Or beaten by your spouse and then told you 'provoked it'? I know it's a bit manipulative, but if, through those kind of shocking images, you can get him to see feminism as 'something that support my sister whom I love' rather than 'evil man hating conspiracy', that'd be a good first step.
Maybe if the word 'feminism' is such a provocation you should come at it from another angle - i.e. ask all the obvious questions (do you believe in equal pay for equal work, do you believe in votes for all, do you believe we should all have control over our bodies etc) and when the person answers 'duh, yeah, of course I do', then you hit them with the, "well, hate to tell you this matey, but you're a feminist too" line. It's ridiculous that the word remains so taboo and misunderstood but don't let that stop you from trying to make your brother see another P.O.V.
Keep up the good fight!
You should totally dump your boyfriend.
Okay, okay.. maybe give him a few good feminist books to read first, and then if he still doesn't get it or just doesn't read them, dump his sorry ass.
What's wrong with Men's Right Groups? I think they're great.
As for coping: Drinking and Masturbating (not at the same time)
I cannot imaagine how horrible it would be to be a victim of rape. But to have others suggest that the victim is to blame blows my mind. I didn't realize there are men's groups out there who are pushing this agenda.
I can relate to you because I am afraid to ask my own boyfriend how he feels about these victim blaming mysths. I have only discussed the issue of feminism with him once, and it was a quick and slightly embarrassing converstation for me. I think it is hard to defend women's rights when most people don't think this is an issue anymore.
I feel it hard for us women to resolve our desire to be close with our significant other and to live our our beliefs as feminist. I hope with time I will be able to construct a stronger argument so that I am more comfortable discussing my beliefs with someone who may not agree with me.
Some of these comments are making me sad.
How do you have boyfriends that you don't discuss feminism with? How can you date someone who seriously believes in victim-blaming?
Is this for real?
However, people DO change. Usually it's of their own volition but it can happen...Take my brother.
I grew up in a born-again household. Church twice on Sundays and Wednesday nights. My aunt was the president of a county chapter of Right to Life. Somehow in junior high I became interested in feminism, and I started reading about it. My family made fun of me for my choices (mostly the not shaving part)but I didn't care. I felt a lot better about myself.
Fast forward 10 years later. My brother actually asks to borrow some of my feminist books because he took a class on Title IX and has since become interested. Did living with me for 10 years help that decision? Maybe. But I think the more he learned about feminism the more he realized it's not about man-hating but about equal rights. I had tried to tell him this for years, but he had to come to this conclusion on his own.
I agree with changing the people you hang out with. I have had to cut people out of my life that I disagreed with on my most crucial ethical topics. Some people tried to tell me to "just get over it" or "it's no big deal" but if it is a serious ethical issue for me, then I prefer to cut that person out of my life - or at least phase them out from a good friend to an acquaintance.
It sounds to me like your boyfriend is never going to agree with you since you've already talked with him a lot about it. If you can stand that about him, I guess you could date him casually, but he's not going to be the best life-partner for you unless he has a change of heart. It sounds like this disagreement over such core issues is really having a strong negative affect on you, so I suggest at the very least spending some time away from him. Not every liberal is a feminist - I've met many liberal men who are still quite sexist, and liberal women, too. If you don't wish to date a sexist man, don't let his liberalism be a curtain covering his blatant sexism and victim-blaming mentality. [of course, if he is genuinely interested in learning more about feminism, then educating him would be appropriate. contrarily, if he seems to not want to talk about it, or jumps to argue, that sends up a flag in my opinion to get away from him.]
Concurrently, you can be reaching out to make new friends - feminist friends that you can talk about these things with. Join a local chapter of NOW. Blog about more topics you care about on here. Spend a few hours reading feminist news/mags/etc. Find your own voice, and write. Maybe journal. Either about your feminist ethics, or about your personal feelings, or whatever you feel like.
If you are the spontaneous adventurous type: consider moving to a more liberal place where there are local meet-up groups for feminists.
If you are the sit at home type: watching Rachel Maddow is helpful, too.