I don't have an answer. I'm hoping to get feed back to see what other people think.
I used to be against stripping. Or strip clubs any way. Now I'm unsure.
Honestly I've been thinking about doing it lately. I did it for a night once, and it didn't bother me at all. I have no problem showing by body. If anything, I had fun.
I do think it's reducing your body to a product, but aren't most jobs? Most people I've talked with about it give me the response that if I feel comfortable with it then it's fine. I have a close friend who is extremely against it though. He makes the argument that it isn't just about me. It's about the liberation of women as a whole. That me being a stripper will have a negative impact on women's liberation. I disagree. I think that it will only effect me.
I would be grateful if people'd take the time to share their thoughts.
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This is an issue that divides feminists sometimes, and you're likely to get debates started.
I personally think that the way things are now, stripping for men as a career reinforces the idea that women are objects to be paid for, in this case rented. It also reinforces the idea that men enjoy women best when they are stripping, and that women's bodies, particularly breasts, are sexual.
Basically, if women weren't already plastered half-naked everywhere, it wouldn't be as big of an issue. But the male gaze is catered to everywhere, and I think it needs to be toned down everywhere, not just with the strip clubs. Men strip for women and gay men, too, but men aren't subject to the sexual objectification that women are. I think that if women were to be shown as sexual objects less, it wouldn't be a big deal. My main issue is really just with men who go to strip clubs because they think they deserve to ogle half-naked women as much as possible.
I went to a strip club once, expecting to be horrified, but what I saw was bored-looking women (coated with thick layers of glitter and body spray) and a roomful of assholes. The leering, smirking, entitled men making horrible comments and acting like kings in a brothel made me sick, and honestly lowered my opinion of men (which is unfair, as I know many men don't go to strip clubs and some who do don't act like that, but that's what happened). They know those women aren't interested in them, but they act like having naked women around makes them gods. UGH.
That probably doesn't add to the discussion, but that's my limited experience.
I have been to strip clubs before, and a lot of the men that frequent these places are misogynistic a-holes. I have known women to strip and they said its not all glamorous. For example, they start off topless, then go full frontal, and move to lap dances. Each time, money would increase. I also heard stuff for more money would occur after hours, so to speak. Also heard the availability of drugs are prominent. Yes, its the money that lures women into this occupation. I spoke with a former stripper who told me by the time one reaches 25, she is considered old. WTF is that all about? I am not telling you not to do it, but consider the pitfalls. Before making the decision, talk to others about it.
It doesn't affect just you, it affects every woman by supporting the entitlement to see women naked and by supporting the objectification of women. Stripping is not the same as showing your body - far from. If it were the same, strippers would not dance, would wear particular outfits, would not need platform heels. They could just walk around naked and hang out (pun intended). Stripping is about a particular view of decorative femininity defined by and for men. In addition, every job does not objectify your body. Most jobs are about your accomplishments and skills, not about how well you serve men.
If you enjoy showing your body, why not seek out art model positions? You can show your body to people who are usually also comfortable with naked bodies, and you don't have to wear stupid outfits or do stupid dances.
I don't think stripping is feminist. I also don't think it's anti-feminist. In that regard, I feel the same way about stripping as I do about brushing me teeth.
It's your body and you should do what you like with it. I agree that your choice to strip doesn't affect women's liberation as a whole, and I don't think you have a responsibility to NOT strip because some strippers and sex workers are exploited.
Check out http://renegadeevolution.blogspot.com/. She's a sex worker and she writes about feminism, and she's far more eloquent about this than I am.
I agree with you. It isn't feminist, it isn't anti-feminist. I'm so sick of all the comments saying that stripping is anti-feminist. We should not have to police our behavior because some people constantly objectify and exploit women. Those people need to stop continually objectifying/exploiting us.
Also, women should be able to choose when and how we want our bodies to been seen as a body, and when and how we want to be seen in the context of our whole personality. The desire to be seen as your body on occasion isn't wrong. It becomes a problem when we are not permitted to express ourselves as more than our bodies. (For example, during performance art or dance or sex I might want my partner to focus on only my body. The rest of the time I have the right to be seen as a whole person. Likewise, on occasion, I may only see my partner as his body and neither of us have a problem with that)
Policing self & sexual expression of women because it "supports objectifying women" strikes me as a blame-the-victim mentality. Do whatever you want with your body. Interpret your actions as you will.
As long as there are women willing to get naked for anything then women as a whole will be constantly seen as a body rather than a personality/mind.
You also seem to be missing the fact that strippers aren't "victims" because of the stripping. They do however allow others to be made victims and for this victimhood to be socially acceptable because it is just one more way in which women are shown to be hypersexualised (and afterall, you can't rape the willing, right?)
Saying "there are women willing to get naked for anything" is an unfair snap judgment about what some women choose to do with their bodies.
As for the rest of the statement "women as a whole will be constantly seen as a body rather than a personality/mind". That's exactly the problem with the people who choose to hold those views, not with the way women present their bodies/sexuality. See, our actions will never be good enough. It's the virgin/whore dichotomy at work. As long as one woman is showing her body in a sexualized way, to be looked at for her body, ALL women are suddenly "WHORES". The appropriate response to this is to be criticize those who constantly objectify women all of the time, not repress the way women express their sexuality. Otherwise you're effectively telling women they must be "Virgins" or they'll be "Whores". Not helpful.
Also, since when are individual women responsible for how all women as a whole are seen? The "if you strip, it makes all women look bad" argument is saying exactly that women should be judged as a whole instead of treated as individuals.
Exactly.
http://xkcd.com/385/
Same idea, different context.
An individual is not going to overthrow thousands of years of misogyny, the group can. Why even bother calling yourself a feminist if you're playing right into the hands of the patriarchy? It's like a Jew trying to enter the KKK.
"It's like a Jew trying to enter the KKK". This argument does not make any sense to me and I find it inappropriate.
Yes, as a society we can work to end misogyny. This calls for criticizing those who hate women, those who view us only as our bodies, NOT the individual sexual choices of women. I refuse to tell women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies. It is patronizing to tell adult women that you know what is best for them.
If you think stripping is so awful because some women do it for economic reasons, the answer is to work towards equality, pay equality efforts, a world where the opinions of women are taken seriously etc., not to go on a moral crusade against personal sexuality choices. Really that mode of "feminism" is just the same old BS of someone else telling us what to do with our bodies.
Heh, that's highly ironic given what I do (my whole life is centred around equal pay for women).
You continue to ignore the fact that we live in a patriarchy and until you face that I am not buying your argument. Her ability to have the choice to do it is irrelevant. The fact that she is making such a choice within the patriarchal society structure however, is not. Ideally she should be able to make that decision, but to call herself a feminist and make that decision whil living in this society is just a joke.
"It's like a Jew trying to enter the KKK."
If you really believe it is like this, then who do you focus your criticism on: the group who is causing the harm, the KKK (men who feel they have a right to a woman's body)? or the "misguided Jew" (as you see it, the "misguided" woman who makes a personal choice regarding the way she wants to present her body)?
The problem is both. They are allowing each other to exist. If women refused to strip until there was actual equality and respect for women then men can no longer go around saying how empowering it is and how *all* women want to do it.
True, but society is still a patriarchy and isn't going to radically change anytime soon. By stripping she's not being subversive or only doing what she wants to do but is feeding into the very machanics of what allows the patriarchy to continue.
This has nothing to do with being "subversive". Each individual woman has the right to express her sexuality as she sees fit.
"society is still a patriarchy and isn't going to radically change anytime soon." Our whole job as feminists is to work towards this change, not alter the way we express our sexuality.
"she's not...only doing what she wants to do but is feeding into the very machanics [sic] of what allows the patriarchy to continue." I don't understand what you mean by this comment. Men and others who only see women for our bodies all of the time need to be criticized for engaging in that behavior. Limiting the individual sexual choices of women only further supports the virgin/whore dichotomy.
"True, but society is still a patriarchy and isn't going to radically change anytime soon."
Basically what I hear you saying is it's okay to enforce the virgin/whore dichotomy because "things aren't going to change anytime soon" and that's the way patriarchy is. We're supposed to change the system, not try to get all women to look like "virgins" so we're taken more seriously. We deserve to be taken seriously no matter how we choose to express our sexuality. What if instead of condemning the sexual choices of individual women we could condemn the way people constantly place value judgments on the way women express sexuality?
It has absolutely nothing to do with the virgin/whore dichotomy. You cannot strip for men within a patriarchy and call yourself a feminist. It doesn't work like that. You can't play into the hands of the group oppressing you and call it empowerment. If you do it doesn't make you a whore, it makes you a liar.
Why are you so insistent on being the feminist police? Just because someone has different views than you do doesn't mean they're not a feminist. There are a lot of really great feminists out there who have done sex work, or who don't find it particularly anti-feminist.
Just because we live in a society dominated by heterosexual male sexuality, doesn't mean that heterosexual male sexuality is a bad thing and anything that caters to it is enforcing the patriarchy. You don't create a world that accepts different sexualities by making one sexuality into the villain.
You also don't create a world accepting of different types of women/sexualities by conforming to the most restricting view of sex/women that exists.
When heterosexual male sexuality objectifies women and allows rape and abuse then, yes, I will vilify it because that's exactly what it deserves.
First of all, I would like to say that I will not tolerate or respond to any more personal attacks, including being called a liar. This means that I will not respond to comments that attack my self-identify as a feminist. We may disagree on what actions are feminist and what actions are not, the definition of feminism, and any number of other things. This disagreement is fine. What is not fine is to attack my personal identity. So keep the comments on feminist theory, action, thoughts, discourse not personal identity.
Next, I will address all of the comments directed towards me in this one comment to keep better track.
"You can't play into the hands of the group oppressing you and call it empowerment."
I never said that I find stripping empowering. Rather, I argue that stripping is not inherently unfeminist.
"It has absolutely nothing to do with the virgin/whore dichotomy."
The virgin/whore dichotomy is a phenomenon in our society that women are either viewed as hypersexualized or virginal - there is no in-between, healthy, normal or variant forms of sexuality. This ensures that women must always be shamed for our sexuality, for not being sexual enough or for being too sexual. Our sexual expression is continually scrutinized no matter what we do. Can you agree with this? If not, I'd like to hear your perspective. I will explain my thoughts on how this relates to stripping if you would like me to, otherwise there's no point.
My view plays on your second line:
"I used to be against stripping. Or strip clubs any way. "
I think that stripping, if the the stripper is treated with respect, is fine. But many of stripclubs and other sex-based industries commodify the woman's body and through the industry's set up allow a disrespectful and disempowering "attitude" (maybe not the best word, but you get the idea).
Unfortunately many of the patrons are arse's who feel that they're entitled to see "nekkid womenz and titz" because they are in possession of a couple bills.
(This is very similar to my view on porn.)
If you had fun and find a place to work that you like and feels like it's respectful to you, I think you should totally go for it! ^^
I think this question could be loosely analogous to the Recovered Memory thing from the last couple days on here.
In the abstract, stripping is not really Feminist in nature. It objectifies women and reinforces patriarchal values. It can be very damaging if that hyper-sexualized view of women becomes what men think of when they think of women -- just objects there for their pleasure.
However, for individual women, it may be Feminist. It can give women an opportunity to take control on their bodies in a certain sense. It can give women an ownership of their physical beauty, which can freeing and empowering. And while there are skeezy men all around, the woman is in control of who gets to do what when. It's an illusion of power that's created for the man -- yes, it's a show for him, but she decides when it starts and stops.
Honestly, a big part of Feminism is the ability to decide for yourself what it is you want to do. If you want to do it, you can totally be feminist and do it! You believe in your own empowerment into the choices for you life, and that's what Feminism is!
Riiight. It doesn't give women an ownership of their beauty it gives men ownership of a very particular type of "beauty". It is not freeing because it has nothing to do with the individual's body being attractive but having that indivdual become consumed within the patriarchal idea of beauty. When there are big women in strip clubs then maybe I will believe you.
Also it may be an illusion of power, but I'm sure the men don't see it that way! As long as they've got the money and are clothed, they have the power.
Right, something is wrong when 'empowerment' is 100% in compliance with what men want from you.
If a woman wants to wear revealing clothing around, I can see that as a kind of empowerment because she can actually say "fuck you" to anyone who tries to objectify her. Hard to tell guys you are not an object when you are selling yourself as one and there are 70,000 who are doing the same everywhere people go, reinforcing the idea that any naked woman men perceive as hot is an object.
I think it's problematic when you base your definition of "empowerment" on being the opposite of what society expects.
I also think it's problematic to make sweeping statements about what is empowering and what is not. For some women, stripping might actually be very liberating, and for some women it might be horribly degrading. For some women, it will be neutral -- just a way to pay to bills.
Empowerment doesn't have to be the exact opposite (I really like LilithLuffles example of how public displays of sexuality can be empowering but playing 100 percent into what the patriarchy expects of women can not ever be empowering. Maybe in a utopia where stripping is a choice and where that view is not then extrapolated onto all women it could be. Unfortunately, we don't live in a utopia, we live in a patriarchy, where people stripping and being in sex work negatively influence the lives of other women by reinforcing misogynistic BS.
I think that whatever women do is going to have an impact on the women around us. Men go to strip clubs because women are willing to strip for money; those men get a sense of entitlement; those men go out into the public and treat other women like they treat the strippers.
Most jobs do not objectify your body. That's not to say that people aren't exploited, because thats bound to happen in a capitalist society but they are what they can do, not just the size of their tits.
I think feminism and stripping are completely incompatiable. I think it is possible to stand up for equality and then cheapen your body by selling it to men who don't really give a shit if you're a feminist as long as they get to use you.
I'm surprised most posts seem to be against it.
I disagree with the majority of what is posted here. Stripping can be perfectly feminist. All sex work can be. Feminists support sex workers, including strippers. I don't like the tone of most posts here even though I understand where they are coming from.
I think that what matters is how YOU feel. It doesn't matter about the guys in the club - I disagree with those points. Who cares if they feel power or not - question is do you? If yes, then go for it girl. Just be wary of the drugs or other seedy elements.
You can be a stripper and a feminist too. They are not incompatible. You own your body and You can do with it what you like. Don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise.
Exactly. I think everyone is focusing to much on what the men will think about the OP, rather than what the OP will feel about herself.
And really, that's just another way of letting men control women.
The guys in the club matter when they live the club and catcall the woman walking down the street, go home to their girlfriends and expect them to conform to patriarchal beauty standards and to perform sexual acts and go to work the next day and sexually harrass his female coworkers because, afterall, women should be sex objects, not contributing to a male dominated society.
right, so because some men in the club exhibit inappropriate behavior that violates our rights, the answer is to limit the way some of us want to express our sexuality. sorry, not buying it.
What kind of right is it to live in a society where a woman earns more money if she drops out of school and strips than if she gets a degree? What kind of right is it that that is often the only viable way for women to support themselves is by taking off their clothes? Why don't men have this "right"?
Of course women who want to earn a degree, have a different job, etc. need to be supported. The institutions that make it happen need to be supported. As feminists we can work towards the broader change that will put a college degree firmly in the future of those who want it. Just as all of those things need to be supported, so do women who want to be strippers. There is a variety of ways that people express their sexuality and some people will always want to display their bodies and sexuality in particular ways. Instead of condemning that, we need to work to give people CHOICES, the real choice (not pressure because of economic reasons), to be a stripper or to not be one. Completely denying that some women choose to be strippers and enjoy it ignores the real problems.
But that's exactly the point. Within a male-dominated society it is harder for women to get degrees and nearly impossible to get a decent managment position. Similiarly, within the same society stripping as empowerment is impossible.
I worked as a cocktail waitress in a strip club for about a month and here's what I got out of it...
It really depends on you. I think it takes a really strong individual to not get really fucked up warped by the mind-fuck of an institution that is most strip clubs. The club I worked in had something like 40 dancers and 10 waitresses, and maybe... 8 of those girls at the most had something going for them that wasn't a drug problem or sleeping with the managers.
Correlation doesn't imply causation though, and one could argue that most of the girls attracted to this line of work are the ones who need a way to get a lot of cash quick. The girls who did have something going on were truly amazing though. Their sense of humor, their wisdom, and their refusal to take shit from the assholes who came in, or their crazy coworkers was inspiring to me.
I think it's possible to be a feminist and a stripper, but I think it takes more strength than some people have to not get warped by the way you get treated (you definitely get treated like an object, or I did as a waitress anyway). --But I don't believe that stripping is inherently unfeminist.
Also, pretty much every other job I've had, I had people thinking they could buy me/my body. Maybe that's just treatment that comes with waitressing in general? The one exception was when I worked for my university for a term. I think though, that if you work most any service job, you're going to have dicks inviting you back to their hotel room despite the 9%T tip they left (wtf).
Am I the only one struck by how much the "stripping is anti-feminist!" outcry is beginning to sound like good old-fashioned slut-shaming?
"Dirty whores who get naked for anything and are too dumb to know better when boys talk them into having sex make boys disrespect other women, including the nice virgins they're supposed to marry!"
"Women who strip for money are too dumb to know they're being exploited and they're definitely way too dumb to know that they might make guys go home and try weird sex positions!"
Seriously. Catcalling is totally the fault of strippers? Men bullying their girlfriends into going totally shaved is completely the fault of strippers?
It can't possibly be because said men are assholes?
Yes, of course, if I wear a short skirt and a slutty top and I get raped, it's totally my fault for making myself look like an object.
Right.
That's not the argument at all. You're playing on hyperbole but it doesn't work if that's not what we're actually saying.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the strippers sexuality at all. Doing exactly what your oppressors want you to do can never be subversive or empowering because it does nothing but reinforce the misogynistic BS some women are actually attempting to fight.
Strip clubs don't make men assholes, but strip clubs exist because they are. It's just one more part of the way women's bodies are put on show in order for men to feel like they have a right to them.
"You also seem to be missing the fact that strippers aren't "victims" because of the stripping. They do however allow others to be made victims"
"I think that whatever women do is going to have an impact on the women around us."
Yeah, that's not at all what you're trying to say.
Do you honestly think society approves of strippers? Sex workers are looked down on by pretty much everyone. We have to be hot, but we can't ever be whores.
If you refuse to do something entirely because someone you hate would approve, THEY'RE STILL CONTROLLING YOU. You're centering your life around the patriarchy and making choices based on that rather than on what you actually want to do.
Of course it does. Every second person of my generation has done a sex video/stripped etc at some point in their life. A lot of them did it precisely because society not only accepted it but encouraged it.
Have you not been paying attention to the whole abstinence thing? Haven't you heard douchebags talk about how they want to marry virgins, or at least women without a lot of sexual experience? Haven't you ever had a friend made to feel ashamed of her "number?" Haven't you ever heard someone make sweeping statements about how sex workers and promiscuous women have low self-esteem and daddy issues? People have certainly given me shit for sleeping around.
If you think society embraces the whore, you're not paying attention. In certain circles it may be more acceptable or even glorified to some extent, but that's not true of most of the world. The religious right still has a lot of power, and they think a woman wearing a short skirt is asking for it.
It's important to remember that not everyone has had the same experience as you have, and that not everyone thinks about sex the same way you do, and you can't expect them to, and you can't think that your view is the only valid one. You don't hear me arguing that everyone needs to have a lot of one-night stands. I just think that people who want to have one-night stands should be able to.
I'm not paying attention? Society loves the whore and hates the virgin. What you are spouting is theory, not practice. Abstinent-ed may be taught but in the real world its a lot different. People don't want to be with a virin or with anyone who attatches emotions to sex.
I agree that people think that women in the "wrong" clothes are asking for it but thats because according to them *all* women are whores, not because they are comparing them to virgins. Just by stepping outside the house women become sexual public property. Stripping just reinforces that all women are whores and want it, which just leads to more rape.
Please learn to step outside your own experience.
You've written a lot about your sex life in these threads, and from what I gather you are fairly vanilla, attach emotion to sex, and have a sex life that's on the tame side of mainstream. There's absolutely nothing wrong with any of that, and if you're happy with it then it's exactly what you should be doing.
But it also means that you haven't ever experienced discrimination because you are sexually aggressive or sexually deviant. If you're on the tame side of mainstream and you hang out with more liberal types, you wouldn't.
I'm kinky and I've had a lot of very random sex. I've gotten more shit for it than you would believe, and not all of it was from super-religious save-it-for-marriage types. Most of it wasn't. A lot of it came from women my age, not even religious, who thought that my tendency towards no-strings-attached sex showed deep psychological issues. I had one close friend who worried that because I am slutty, I was going to try to sleep with her boyfriend. She was from a non-religious liberal family, and she'd been sexually active for longer than I had.
I've had much more experience facing pressure to be less sexual than I am, but that doesn't mean I deny that women are pressured to be more sexual, because I am actually capable of putting myself in another's shoes.
Most female celebrities have been referred to as whores. People make fun of the dumb slut. Sexually aggressive women are often treated as comedy relief in movies and on TV. If you've ever watched TV news in regards to anything sex-related, you should have seen what I'm talking about. If you haven't noticed this you're very sheltered, very oblivious, very dumb, or you agree with them.
And to bring some evidence to my argument, the more strip clubs/brothels there are in a place the higher the rape/sexual assault rate is. Also when a place gets a new strip club/brothel the rape/sexual assult rate increases dramatically.
Just as one example, a women’s crisis center serving Wahperton, ND reported a 96% increase in domestic violence and sexual assault referrals after a second strip club opened in that town.
There's also been quite a bit of evidence that easy access to pornography lowers the rate of sexual assault.
Also, no one is saying that she can't do it, just that to do it and call herself feminist would just be lying to herself.Do it, great, but quit with the excuses of "empowerment".
So you're taking away her feminist card because she strips? I'm so glad we have the feminist police.
I don't think stripping is inherently feminist or empowering, if that's what you're implying. I also don't think it's inherently anti-feminist.
I can believe that for some people in some situations it might be liberating. You can talk all you like about how society constantly oversexualizes women, but you can't forget that women are also constantly told we must cover up, we can't be sexy, we can't try to sexually arouse anyone. I went to Catholic school, I've heard this shit. For someone raised in that environment, I can see how stripping might be a fun, empowering activity.
I can also believe that some people might find it terribly degrading, and still others will see it as just a job. Either way, it's stupid to generalize.
There's a difference between my argument and what you're making it out to be. I don't believe it is *inherently* unfeminist. Doing it within a patriarchy which abuses and objectifies women's bodies everyday? Absolutely.
I had written a similar post originally with some links to other feministing topics that were similar, but the comment monster got to it. So apologies if this posts multiple times.
I suppose that if we had true equality, we wouldn't even think to discuss this question; so my first inclination is that businesses that seek to profit off the concept of feminine sex appeal to the exclusion of a more humanist perspective do not reflect the egalitarian goals that feminism strives for.
Having said that I think it helps to make a distinction between the industry and the individual women working in it. You can understand why things get problematic when so many businessfolk put into place policies that collide the fundamental issues that women and feminists are still fighting for. (You can search in the community forum as there have been a couple of postings about issues in the stripping sector or other places such as clubs and restaurants that rely on female sex appeal as part of the business model).
However, some people say that there are some progressive venues out there. I don't know if it's an option in your area, but I'd start there if you decide to go for it.
How on earth can a strip club be progressive? Exploiting women isn't exactly a new concept.
In another community post here some folks who have worked in the industry (which I have not, so I'm taking their word) said that there are some clubs that have both male and female acts for example; clubs where the performers cater to a more diverse audience and where performers themselves represent diversity in terms of age, orientation, body types. I'm thinking an evolution of burlesque type acts...
Sounds pretty progressive to me in the way a private topless/nude beach is not going to draw the same types of people who are drawn to a topless bar or strip joint.
One thing that I've learned when arguing about this type of stuff is to NOT assume that it's 100% bad. Even if it's 99% crappy (which I'll admit often seems like it is the case) that 1% that is positive or creative or inspiring, represents progress in my opinion.
Does feministing keep topical archives? I think that would be kind of neat, so I could reference other posts and the responses I've made.
I study embodiment and paid employment. I don't study sex workers, but I use the literature. I also happen to be an ally in the sex workers rights movement. I don't think stripping is or isn't feminist. It's highly, highly contextual.
Strip clubs have highly problematic labor rights records. (Live Nude Girls Unite is a documentary that goes into this.) That certainly bothers me more than the exploitation versus empowerment debate does.
Stripping is neither purely exploitation or purely empowerment. I think Katherine Frank and R. Danielle Egan have both done a lot of work on this. I could rattle off a list of other works on embodiment and paid work. All bodies are objects in the work context. The ability an individual worker or a whole occupation has to distance itself from the body is a reflection of social status. IE, the difference between nursing home attendants and physicians. So I think to deny that work doesn't objectify the body only holds if you have the privilege.
Stripping invokes the broader social locations in which the female body is located, of course. But does stripping reconstitute this? I don't think so. The act itself does not. It all depends highly on the context.