I am a male feminist, 17 years old (very young for a guy to be into this stuff, I know, but that's beside the point), and I find dating a bit of a a complicated issue. The truth is, I like girls as much as any other teenage guy. None the less, I have always found that I can be just as sexual as anyone else without being at all degrading to those I am with. There is very little about sexuality that seems truly affected by which person you happen to be in the relationship (male or female) other than that which is generated by our culture.
Anyway as a guy, I can't say I have experienced the same sexism that most women have. I have seen misogynism, and male privilege imposed on girls, and feel for them greatly. none the less, my perspective is always that of an observer. I can sympathize, and I can fully understand intellectually, but I can't feel what it is like to be on the receiving end of patriarchal oppression. I do my absolute best to be a good feminist, doing what I think I would want someone to do for me if I were the oppressed one, but sometimes that isn't good enough. Sometimes, like in cases like this, I need some perspective and direction from those who are actually taking the brunt of tradition.
It seems to me that one of the more socially immobilizing traditions that must be fought is the established rule that men initiate relationships, and women simply accept or reject. For the person who has to actually ask the other out to go out with the person they are most interested in, the person they are interested in does not have to actually be all that attracted to them; they simply have to be nice enough to give them a chance. For the person who does not initiate relationships to go out with the person they are most interested in, they must be the one that that other person likes most, in order to be asked out by them. I can't speak for everyone, but at any given time, there are only one or two people I like enough to ask out, but a huge number of people I would gladly go out with if they asked me. Therefore, this tradition dramatically reduces the odds of a woman getting the guy she is most attracted to. This is something that meeds to be stopped.
If I were female, the method of fighting this would be obvious; ask guys out. Since I am male, I am not quite sure. The best thing I can do is to simply do nothing to hinder girls in doing this, and, when a female friend mentions a guy she likes, encourage her to go after him, rather than waiting around. However, these are passive, rather than proactive steps. Now, the time has come for me to decide what to do with my own dating policies. I suppose me asking girls out the normal way doesn't hinder them in doing the same. However, I feel as if by doing that, I am exercising male privilege. Perhaps it's irrational, but it doesn't feel right for me to do something that women have a harder time with. I would in effect, be using male privilege. While initiating a relationship is something that all human beings deserve the right to do, and I would merely be exercising this right myself while encouraging women to do the same, I would feel as if, by doing something that my female friends have a hard time with because of their gender, I am participating in the patriarchy. I feel better about making myself as available as possible, flirting now and then, and hoping that the girl I am interested in will make a first move. However, this essentially puts me in the same position as women, which allows me to better understand their position, but does not help them get out of it. On the other hand, it could be argued that the passive steps I already described in the previous paragraph are a lot easier to take than the proactive steps women can take, and that therefore it is unreasonable for me to expect a girl to initiate a relationship with me when it is easier for me to do it.
In short, if I ask girls out, I feel like I'm using male privilege, and participating in the patriarchy by doing something to them that society tries to prevent them from doing to me. I would certainly increase the ration of guys asking girls to girls asking guys, which is not at all a good thing. If I don't, I am expecting more of them than I am giving. I feel a bit stuck. Anyone have any thoughts?
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I think it's ok for you to do the asking...otherwise you may miss out on someone you like. But equally - be REALLY sure you are cool with her asking you!
I say this because although most men give lip-service to the idea of a woman asking a man out, I have done this and been called "unfeminine", "too forward" and "desperate" by men I have asked out.
I am not saying they are all like this - but many of them still hold the idea that a strong woman is pushy or controlling.
Argh, I hate this too! When women ask a man out we either get branded as desperate or a whore. Never again.
This is exactly it.
Clay, feel open to directly asking for a date and encouraging your female friends to do the same, but remember that forward women are seen as emasculating to many men, and that is why they don't feel comfortable. It's an indirect solution, but working against sexism and social expectations of gender is the best way to fight this.
also I promise it gets better as you get older. I'm not saying that to be patronizing, but high school and the teenage years reflect some of the worst of social stigmas. It's a survival instinct in a hostile environment. But when you escape that and people become comfortable with themselves, men and women request dates on more equal footing.
I also agree that you should ask. Encourage your female friends to ask out guys they're interested in. Like nurgetts said, imagine the situation in reverse (her asking you out), how you would want to be asked out, make sure you're 100% okay with that, and then do the asking. Maybe she'll initiate other things. As you get to know each other you can share your ideas about feminist beliefs and healthy relationships. I asked my boyfriend out almost four years ago when I was 17, and we're still together. I also initiated our first kiss. I definitely appreciated how he stepped back, especially because that was/is my first relationship.
Of course you should ask! I'm seventeen too, and people who are too scared to ask bother me- male and female. I've been the initiator for every relationship I've been in, because the guys were 'too nervous' to ask or do anything.
It all comes down to being brave enough to try at our age, hardly a patriarchy problem. At least, for what I've known.
I don't think asking a girl out is participating in the patriarchy. And I think encouraging your female friends to ask out guys is being proactive against the patriarchy. I'd recommend also encouraging your guy friends to be more accepting when a girl asks a guy out---whenever I've done it, it meant that I was SUPER interested in the guy!
Wouldn't be great if guys bragged about how many girls asked them out instead of how many girls they slept with? :)
As others have said, I don't think you should avoid asking a woman out for the reasons you're stating. That puts too much emphasis on one interaction, and not enough on the overall social trend. You can still support women being assertive in other ways, like talking publicly about women's assertiveness in a positive way, and challenging people who say that only men should do the asking and women should just accept or reject. Also, remember that asking a woman out is just one moment in a relationship. You will have many other moments, and you can work to make sure the overall relationship is egalitarian.
Clay,
I can't answer your question but I have to admit I am struck by your eloquence. You are completely outside of the norm of what I would expect from a 17 year old. How did you come to this level of maturity? (And did your Mother have anything to do with it?)
Mother? Why mother? Are only women eloquent, that his father couldn't have had some qualities to pass on?
Mother? Why mother? Are only women eloquent, that his father couldn't have had some qualities to pass on? Or that only women are mature? I'm sure you were referring to the fact that Clay is so aware of sexism in high school that it's likely his mother was an influence given a woman's general lack of sexist privilege, but let's be wary of phrasing that elevates one sex over the other.
YES! I was going to post the very same thing! It should be repeated in parenting!
(First, I would like to say that my english isn't good, and I will make a lot of mistakes in this comment... I hope you can unterstand what I'm trying to say)
About what you asked, I agree with the other here, you should ask her out.
About women asking men out, I really hope that one day they will do it without being called "unfeminine" or anything like that... My ex-girlfriend has asked me out when we started, and we had a great time together... As it was the first time I dated someone (I'm just 15, and I was 14 when this happened)), and we started in a strange situation (we're both from Brazil, live in cities 900 km far from each other, and we were in Germany for two weeks as we met us. And also she was 2 1/2 years older than me), I was to scared to ask her out. So, if she hadn't asked me out (and she only did that because we had had some conversations about feminism before and she knew my opinion... in any other situation she wouldn't do it because she would be afraid of being called any of those things already mentioned) we wouldn't had our relationship, that despite being over has left a good friendship and great experiences.
Since that happened to me I started thinking about how many relationships don't happen just because women can't ask guys out without taking the risk of being called "a whore". How many women, and also men, would have good times with someone from the other gender, if it hadn't stopped by "i can't ask him out, and he doesn't asks me".
I talked to much about myself and almost nothing about what's been asked here, but that's because I agree with what the other comments say.
(And again, I hope you can understand what I was meaning, sorry for my bad english, I'm trying to improve it)
I understood what you were writing! And I agree that guys dont often think about how they could miss a good relationship if they play according to the traditional male/female paradigm.
Your English was really good, don't worry! :)
The fact that you care about this means a lot. I don't think you should overthink this or worry too much about it, but it's good for you to be aware and honest about your feelings. I think anyone should feel comofrtable about asking anyone out: a man who finds a woman "unfeminine" because she's asked him out on a date is useless. The fact that you ask women out doesn't make you sexist; if you had a real problem with assertive women because it made you somehow feel like less of a person, that would be buying into privilege.
Do what works for you, be kind and respectful and open, and keep thinking. And have fun.
Thank you ZP27, I signed in to say just that.
Oh, I just realised.
How great you're a self-identied feminist man at age 17! As you may have seen in the overrated/underrated list, you are in fact in demand.
Very high in demand. Especially for, you know, young feminists who are sick of being friends with guys who are completely ignorant jerks.
Geez. Dude if you like a girl ask her out, she will say yes or no. It ain't hard. Personally I would really be turned off by a guy with that much angst over it.
I wouldn't. I don't see it as "angst" either, just rational, respectful concern.
Clay, the entire "guys ask girls out, girls have full veto power" is sometimes a hobby horse of mine: when I'm stressed out, single, etc., I tend to whine about it a lot. I have plenty of female friends who have never asked a boy out in their entire lives but have been in plenty of relationships, while nearly all straight male friends I have who never ask girls out have been single their entire lives. Talk about an unequal distribution of labor!
Your early description of the process suggests that you recognize and are a touch uncomfortable about how unfair it is at root: men and women who never ask people out themselves are banking on other people taking a larger portion of the psychic risk in starting relationships. Need this be a fatal flaw in all instances? of course not. Some of us are just shy. But when it's institutionalized in movies, in social conventions, in dating guides, etc., it can put an undue amount of pressure on men to be the active agents in dating. And it's complicit in a host of other active/passive stereotypes.
But having said that, it isn't activity that is the problem: admit that the world would definitely be a much better place if both men and women approached each other (politely! with respect!) when interested. We would almost double the chances of making a close connection with someone we care about.
So don't give up asking people out (it's hard, but important!), be sure to give your female friends pep talks and advice towards being more expressive of their own desire, and treat with respect both those whom you approach and who approach you (whatever the answer to the question). You sound like you're on the right path already! Good luck!