I recently wrote a piece for The Nation about the disconnect between mom activists/bloggers and young feminists, and I sent the link to Jessica and Courtney to get their thoughts. Both of them disagreed—that they actually saw a lot of overlap between feminist blogs/community and parenting issues. And it’s true. Feministing does post on these issues, such as here , here and here .
Yet, all of the mombloggers I talked to, feminist/activist/political or not, felt very separated from the young feminist community and discussions around it. Blogs and orgs I mentioned in my article, like Sistas on the Rise and Hip Mama , as well as ones I didn’t, like MOMocrats and PunditMom , don’t often, if ever, get linked to on sites like Feministing, Feministe , and Broadsheet . (In fact, MOMocrats wrote me a letter telling me that my own omissions proved my disconnect theory even more. Point taken.) MomsRising shows up from time to time , but not in the context of reproductive rights, an issue that needs to be associated more often with economic parenting issues (e.g. maternity leave, daycare) if we want to have real choice.
I certainly didn’t mean for my piece to single out Feministing and feminists as the culprit for this separation. It also has a lot to do with what the media focuses on when they talk about feminists—namely sex, reproductive justice, and body image—and by contrast what kind of mombloggers Oprah’s producers choose to feature on the show—not the feminist/political ones, to be sure.
I know that young women and feminists care about these issues. My article (and Feministing) proves that. I also know that there are feminist/political moms out there. Still, parenting organizations who are under the media’s feminist radar but instituting real change need to align themselves with younger feminist blogs and organizations that get more face time. And vice versa. They should be linking each other, Twittering each other, and inviting each other to conferences. There needs to be groups like the MOMocrats that includes and speaks to non-moms, too. Young women need to not only comment on, but be engaged with these issues—and connect them to issues of abortion and birth control. It’s always hard to take action on issues that don’t directly affect you, but childless young feminists need to secure their futures.
In short, I think moms and feminists need to work together more. What do you all think?
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Thanks for posting this, Nona. The thing is - moms are feminists and feminists are moms. I don't think they're separate groups. Here at Feministing we have hundreds of posts motherhood (check out our archives) and child care issues - but I see your point about connecting more, and I'm certainly all for it!
Actually, a lot of feminists aren't moms. And won't be. And a lot of us feel incredibly alienated by what seems like an already mommy-focused shift in feminism.
Thank you, Happiestsadist. Nearly all of the feminist blogs are overrun with "HipMamas" already, and everything's got to be All About Them And Their Widdle Pweshuses. Just like IRL.
If you're interested in marriage equality, how the Farm Bill can be used to support agribusiness/factory farming OR support organic/local CSAs, transportation/commute issues, or who you might want to vote for in 2010, I'd suggest you visit MOMocrats.com, because those are all things I'd guess the child-free would be interested in too. And that we've blogged about at our site.
I think this is what's so frustrating--people make assumptions about what mothers are interested in. But they don't read the site, and find out what we feminist politically active moms are actually doing and thinking. We've had debates about our name before, some saying it "ghettoizes" us or contributes to the condescension we receive from other political bloggers. But my personal perspective is this: I'm unwilling to give up on the emotional and political real estate that comes with the word "mom," as double-edged as it may seem. I'm unwilling to cede this signifier to the "Moral Majority/Family Values" people. FTS.
And to give one example, I think it's very powerful to be vocal about my support for LBGTQ marriage equality as a straight, middle class, married-with-child feminist MOM. Another example: it's powerful to say, I'm pro-child and pro-choice. Reproductive justice to me includes the fact that for the first 36 years of my life, 24 of which were possible for me to conceive, I CHOSE to be childfree. Others choose to be childfree their whole lives. That's as it should be, people living as they choose.
When 12 of us traveled to the Democratic National Convention, a male reporter from the LA Times scanned our press passes and snerked, "MOMocrats." I told him, "If you've ever HAD a mother, then you're a MOMocrat. Or should be." To me, that's what the MOM in our blog's name means. If you came out of a woman's body, man or woman, you need to honor that.
I am a full life-cycle feminist. Feminism needs to sustain us wherever we are in our life-cycle. I'm against forced procreation; there's nothing inevitable about a woman having a child. But other women will, and we can support and advocate for each other across that gap, can't we? As homebird pointed out, we may not have motherhood as a universal experience, but we certainly have childhood and old age as universal experiences.
(I LOVE your screenname! I assume it's a L'Engle reference? I'll post actual substantive thoughts below.)
It is indeed. :) (I'm not actually an evil mind-controlling alien brain. Probably.)
It's true.. and I'm kinda sick of the shaming that I seem to get from moms..I'm "old enough" to have kids, I'm good with children, I was a nanny and when I say I dont' want kids I get the shunning, the talking down to me, and the "YOU couldn't possibly understand kids attitude."
Alot of us "political mommy's" are also young feminists. There is no set age that a feminist has to wait till to have children.
One more thought before I run off...just about your scope.
It's unclear to me what you mean when you say there's a disconnect among "young feminists." There are plenty of young feminist (and not so young feminist) mom orgs and blogs, as you point out. You seem to be focusing on "young" feminist blogs - and if that's the case, that's fine - I just think that needs to be made clearer so folks don't conflate a handful of blogs with all of young feminists.
On a related note, and as I wrote in our email exchange, you open the piece by mentioning that The Purity Myth, Perfect Girls Starving Daughters and Female Chauvinist Pigs don't talk enough about mothering/child care - but these books are about very specific issues. There are a ton of feminist mothering books out there...
Ummm, what about young feminist moms? Not all feminist moms are older. Both feminism and motherhood spans a huge spectrum of ages. I think you are the one creating a separation largely by not even mentioning that a lot of us are both. Being a 23 year-old feminist mother myself, I often feel like my issues (both as a young mother and a feminist) are overlooked, but thanks for taking that a step further by not even acknowledging my existence.
Because are all feminists, it shouldn't matter that we are in different stages of life or from different generations. We need to talk and expose each other to the issues we each face.
Just as the feminist community at large needs to discuss issues facing queer women, economically disadvantaged women, and women of color, so should we talk about the issues facing parents.
Ironically, while I find a pretty high level of acceptance within the feminist community as a queer-identified person and as a person of color, the most alienating comments come from those who declare themselves "child-free". Seriously guys, I won't ask you to babysit.
Thanks for the dismissal of our life choices with your little scare-quotes. I know that's a great way to foster discussion among different groups of feminists.
We're just as alienated by "feminist mamas" who think that childbirth is the greatest, most feminist achievement ever.
Can't speak for all feminist mamas, but as one I will say this. I'm not sure if we are saying that childirth is the greatest achievement ever. However, I think women who manage to have a good experience during childbirth in this society do tend to feel very happy about that, though, since unless your idea of a good experience involves tubes, being strapped to a table and subjected to procedures without your consent, it takes a lot of research, hard work and initiative to achieve a good experience.
I would venture to say that women who are resisting mainstream narratives of childbirth (i.e., that its dangerous, horrible, and you need a doctor to tell you how to do it) are doing a service to all women, by trying to get us out of the idea that female bodies are inherently pathological sites of extreme danger that must be medically altered in order to function.
Oh hey, Sadist, thanks for jumping to conclusions. You know, sometimes quotation marks are used GRAMMATICALLY, and not for sarcasm.
Did I attack you? No. Did I make any disparaging remark about people who choose not to have children? Hell no - in fact, I think people think too little before they go and jump into parenthood, because they assume wrongly that it's the thing to do. And did I say even once that my biggest contribution to feminism is to raise kids? No again - it's only my biggest responsibility.
So hey, thanks for seeing "breeder" before human being. I appreciate your illustration of exactly the hostility I was talking about.
I'm sure your use of condescending quotation marks to refer to a group you clearly have no respect for and are simply talking about to deride are for grammar's sake. Really.
Funny how you're the one who's pulling the persecution whine. Other mothers here don't seem to see the existence of childfree feminists to be a threat. And mothers expressing a general feeling of marginalization are being respected here. So why exactly do you get so defensive when the feelings of another group of feminists comes up?
Typical smug, self-impressed breeder entitlement. If it's not All About Mommy, it's unimportant. Why didn't you just tell HappiestSadist that "she'll change her mind when she grows up," too?
Oh, and maybe if the "hipmama" contingent would stop blithering on about how being an erth gawdesses with saykrid breastesses and wombzes is the pinnacle of Wombanly achievement, maybe you wouldn't get so much snark from the CFers.
A reminder that personal attacks aren't tolerated - thanks.
That one, and the several like it in the thread, look pretty tolerated to me.
Well I for one don't tolerate it, I just hadn't had a chance to respond yet. Thank you for deleting the one below, Jessica.
Again, can't speak for all "hipmamas", but as someone who may be guilt of the "sacred breasts/womb" mentality, will say this.
I don't think most of us espouse that mentality in order to say that we are better or more valuable than women without children, or to reflect poorly on them. Instead, for me the "sacred breasts/womb" mentality, as you call it, as a response to very anti-women-in-general attitude that childbirth and breastfeeding are dirty, yucky and unfortunate things that women have to do but should try to avoid as much as possible. By reclaiming birth and breastfeeding as positive experiences, I think the intention is to destigmitizing women's bodies in general.
It does feel a lot of an active embrace of the body essentialism we're supposed to be fighting to a lot of us. I don't feel empowered and better about my body by being reduced to a womb and a set of breasts. That's the thing.
I see what you are saying, and actually I think we have the same goal. My whole point is that birth and breastfeeding should be just another part of some women's normal lives, which they are able to do if they want to and be respected and in control in the process - that's all I mean by "sacred", i.e., that a woman's right to make decisions about her body, and her feeling about her body, should not be diminished by her choice to have children.
NB, not my thing but I have talked to some women in the birth reform/natural birth movement for which a positive birth experience was a truly transformative and healing process for them (because they had serious issues with their body due to abuse/eating disorders, society's general focus on women's bodies looking a certain way, what have you). Successfully birthing and breastfeeding a baby can really help some people to make peace with their bodies. I think that is sometimes the motivator behing the "sacred breasts/womb" thing and I don't think anyone is in a position to judge those women for that.
MDC, are you talking to me? Did I say ANYTHING other than that I want more (constructive) dialogue?
You implied that childfree feminists are simply hostile as a group. Please stop backpedaling.
This comment has been deleted.
As someone who recently crossed over from "childless young feminist" to mom, I definitely agree that there is sometimes a disconnect.
Economic parenting rights - and the ways women are uniquely discriminated against when we choose to have children - are huge, and should be considered part of reproductive rights. Another big topic I would like to see the U.S. feminist movement at large focus on more is birth rights. The US maternity care system is extremely disfunctional, resulting in U.S. women having far fewer choices and far worse outcomes than women in other developed countries that have less medicalize, midwife-centered models. I think the right to choose the circumstances under which you give birth is a core reproductive right, but unfortunately it a right denied to most US women due to health care financing in the US, the attitude of the US medical establishment and lack of information. Something ike 85% of women will have a child at some point in their lives, most women I think would consider birth as a major experience in their lives, so it shocks me we are not focusing more as feminists on improving the situation.
I see more awareness of this in the wake of "The Business of Being Born", but its something that seems to me that many women, even highly political and aware feminists, don't think about very often. Talking to women in the U.S. after having a baby abroad, I am often shocked by the low standards and expectations U.S. women have for maternity and birth care.
PS, I think feministing does an excellent job of covering birth and breastfeeding issues.
yes! yes! this! A huge reason I want a homebirth is so that I have some control and say over my birth experiance, with my first I was never given any options. I was told what to do and maybe given some info about what was going to happen. it was so degradeing.
Also, Nona, as you wrote this I did a live chat at RH Reality Check today about access to home birth, which was posted at Feministing (see a few posts down).
I'm a "young" feminist--25 years old, and try to write about motherhood and childbirth specifically at Feministing.
Just want to highlight the way these conversations are overlapping, at least in my work.
Some of this disconnect comes from the tradition of feminist movements, where reproductive rights meant access to abortion but not access to birth options. I think there are people trying to break the divide down.
My "birth activism"--working for the reform of maternity care practices that are more mother centered and less medicalized, it's central to my feminism, which I elaborate at
Radical Doula.
The feeling of disconnection may be more on the side of the parenting blogs. I'm sure the non-parenting bloggers feel that the feminist movement is very open and supportive of motherhood, but from a mother's perspective it really isn't.
Sure, the mainstream (if there is such a thing) feminist movement is for more available childcare, breastfeeding opportunities, and healthcare; all issues that would go far to help women have more choice in their mothering styles. Yes, most feminists are all for mothers being able to choose whether they stay at home or not, whether they breastfeed or not, etc.
However, I can see where mothers can feel that what feminists support is not really what many of them feel. Stay at home moms are often made to feel inadequate as feminists by off-handed remarks or general attitude. I have been told by more than one nonparent feminist that if they had kids, they wouldn't let it change them or effect their career. The unsaid, flip side to this comment is that if you do let having a child change your priorities, you are a little bit less. Maybe that's not what's intended, but it is what comes across.
I recently had a discussion about this very thing, and there was an almost universal experience of having to justify one's ability to have or voice an opinion by citing your former (pre-baby) life. Once you are "just a mom," many feminists (yes, especially the younger ones) don't seem to feel you are entitled to or educated enough to form a thought. Even after saying that "I used to be a..." or "I graduated from..." there are often comments about education or experience going to waste or how "I could never spend all day just watching a baby."
I'm glad you feel that the feminist movement, and feministing in particular, are inclusive of mothers, Jessica, but I can definitely see where mothers feel minimized.
I agree with everything you say except I want to say that those attitudes are not exclusive to feminism. The idea of mothers being unappreciated or that stay-at-home moms are less of a human being than working moms are views expressed throughout all of society, not just feminism. I do not feel any less appreciated by the feminist community then I do by society, and I thought that was the whole idea of feminism?
It's true that the sentiment is endemic to our society, however, it hurts me most that it's prevalent within the feminist community.
We can't help being a little invisible in the movement, with kids to take care of and the utter lack of free time to do anything - especially if one is a single mother, so it's easy to overlook us. However, as motherhood is a feminist issue, I would like the feminist community to try harder, just as I try harder for other women.
Shorter Lotus: Mommies are better than other feminists and more important, and you have to try to understand our special selves better, but there'll be no reciprocation. How dare you even ask? We're too busy raising DA FY00000CHURRRRR!!!
Vom.
Whoa….why all the hostility? I’m sorry if you’ve been personally pressured about having kids, but I think all the people here who do have kids totally support anyone’s choice to have or not to have kids. I’ve never seen nasty comments about women who choose not to have kids aren’t as important. However your comments have been very nasty.
There's a comment in that very post by the poster "lotus" sneering at people who chose not to have kids and have the temerity to speak up about it.
Again, way to jump to conclusions. Read my words, and try not to insert your own feelings.
I think you have a lot of other things going on that are making you feel like your reproductive organs are getting way too much focus, but hell, that's your personal problem that won't get fixed by misinterpreting my words to match your hostility.
I read your words, they were nothing but clear. You for whatever reason seem to state that childfree feminists contribute nothing but hostility to feminist mothers.
But I love, love, being told that I'm being "emotional" in a feminist forum. I'm so glad that there are feminists like you here. Otherwise we'd have to rely on men to belittle us.
Well, just thank your lucky stars on a daily basis for birth control all of you who feel hostility toward pregnant women/mothers.
We should celebrate the freedom of choice to not have children, and shouldn't feel guilty or feel any pressure to procreate. Motherhood is more difficult than most women let on...
That said, -- now you're really going to love this -- generally speaking, mothers understand things about life that childless women will never know. This is not a dig, just an honest opinion. I used to think I knew everything about myself as a female -- until I became pregnant and gave birth. The physical, emotional, psychological upheaval is one wild experience and it's amazing how we survive. Vulnerable? You don't know vulnerable until you've been responsible for a child's life. Cut mothers slack -- they deserve it even if they are smug, white, wealthy or seemingly better off.
But it should be unacceptable to bash pregnant women or mothers. Indeed, I do not think one can call herself a feminist and hold such hostility -- it's immature. I was that way once, so I understand the resentment or what-have-you.
Great topic!
And childfree women know things that mothers never will. Funny how different life paths lead to different, equally valid experiences.
I'm really loving how apparently, only mothers ever care for other humans.
My comment about mothers knowing things -- that sounds obnoxious, I know. But what mothers know is what it means to be vulnerable -- do you really need to know that? Motherhood is largely about work and worry. So it's kind of ridiculous to accuse mothers of being "smug."
I don't think there is anyone on this site who would EVER ridicule a woman for not having children. Indeed, feminism, the status of women would most likely advance if women stopped having children.
Feminists who do not have children should be applauded (clap clap) - seriously. It's ***really*** hard to work against biological demands, societal demands, emotional and psychological pressure. All that is nonsense! Be proud, stay strong. No one and I mean NO ONE who calls herself/himself a feminist would EVER in a million years ridicule a person for not choosing parenthood.
Thank you.
I don't know if I'd make such a sweeping statement about understanding things - that seems like an individual skill/willingness. However, the way pregnancy/motherhood surprised me was with body image as it's perceived in society.
I went from being "cute girl" to "OMG unsexy but that's the way to do pregnancy because she didn't let herself go" to "OMG totally unsexy" to "HOLY SHIT NICE RACK" in the span of 15 months. I mean WTF? Up until that point, I had only ever looked one way, and then to see all the different ways you're treated, solely because of your appearance, was an eye-opener for me.
I don't know what about your post sparked this memory, but eh.
"I don't know if I'd make such a sweeping statement about understanding things - that seems like an individual skill/willingness."
Good point! I agree.
"Vulnerable? You don't know vulnerable until you've been responsible for a child's life." Really!! I felt pretty fucking vulnerable the night my lungs decided to stop working and I had to have a tube shoved down my throat (it took 5 adult men holding me down to accomplish that) and spent 24 hours having a machine breath for me. I felt pretty fucking vulnerable during the next 4 days in ICU listening to the people around me die while the Dr.s and Nurses attempted to keep that from happening. Ok I had another snarky sentence at this point but I've calmed down and deleted it. I hope you read further down the thread and are able to modify your opinion of "only mother's know" a little.
Wow I had been feeling so warm and lovey about this thread until I scrolled back up. Back down to where we're holding hands.
Homebird, It seems to me you're being a bit unfair. Perhaps you did not read all my replies that explain more fully what I meant by that statement, which I admit does sound obnoxious.
It's a different type of vulnerability. Imagine, if you will, having gone through your traumatic and horrible experience yet having a child at home sobbing and missing mommy. Imagine trying to come home and heal while at the same time caring for a child -- cooking, cleaning, feeding, loving, caring, all that is involved. It's no longer about the woman, it's about the child - how could it be any other way?
So again, to say that mothers or pregnant women are smug is just so absolutely ridiculous.
You know, this is quite discouraging. It sort of sheds light on why this world can be so cruel at times. If a feminist cannot grasp why a pregnant woman or mother is vulnerable, that's a sad state of affairs.
I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. I actually am on the side of those without children because I do understand.
I never said that mothers or pregnant women are smug. And I will admit that my reply was somewhat knee-jerk, apologies for that. I have gone back up and carefully read your other comments but still see that you are holding yourself and other mothers apart. You say that it's sad that a feminist cannot understand the vulnerability of mothers and pregnant women - where did I say that I didn't understand? I cannot KNOW your exact form of vulnerability - but your statement really set up a hierarchy. With it and your reply to me you are asking for and refusing support at the same time because we are not in your exact situation. It assumes that non-mothers are incapable of empathy or compassion. I've learned from other comments in this thread that mothers are subjected to unfair and undeserved criticism and opinions. So perhaps your stance is defensive - but take a breath it makes it hard for those of us who want to stand with you to do so when you hold yourself apart in this way.
I don't have to imagine the recovery scenario you mentioned as I am the one who gave day long care to my friend's 9 month old when she was in the hospital and for the week she needed it when she was home. I saw and felt what it did to her. Perhaps I am unique, but I strongly doubt it, in being able to feel her anguish at not having the strength to hold her son - that I didn't have those feelings myself doesn't make it impossible for me to share or comprehend them.
You also have assumed that as I am a feminist and not a mother that it is by choice. That is not the case. So imagine please my pain in wanting to have your experiences and yet being denied them and then being told by you that I cannot share your feelings just because I haven't performed a biological act.
I'm worried for you that you are letting your feelings of vulnerability further isolate you and push you towards victimhood. Defend yourself when unjustly accused/attacked but please don't close the door on those who will/want stand by you and hold your hand by negating our abilities to empathize and have compassion simply because we are not mothers.
Thanks for saying this, because it's an important voice in the discussion. Yours sounds like the kind of pain that is probably hardest to bear, because there are no outside, visual cues, that invite people to give their empathy and compassion to, assuming that they even understand how it hurts you.
Homebird, I did not assume anything. How do *you* know that *I* have not struggled to have children, hmmmm?
What's bizarre is most of the mothers -- if not all -- are here not to talk about motherhood (please see some of the most recent posts) but to discuss other feminist issues and to engage in some lively intellectual discussion.
My posts were not directed to you, yet you speak as if I was addressing you personally, which has me utterly confused.
I would appreciate it if you would try not to tell me what I think or feel.
You also do not realize that I was childless/childfree till I was 35, so I know *very well* the issues women without children face!
Listen, I don't want to argue over what is clearly a misunderstanding. I apologize if you have taken offense at anything I have said, though I do think we are not seeing eye to eye on what I was trying to express. Maybe if I read through your posts again and get to know you a bit better I will then be able to understand where you are coming from.
It's definitely not exclusive to feminists, but I think it is especially painful and hypocritical within a community that says it is fighting so all women can live the kind of lives they want, but then adds in a hushed whisper "but why on earth would you want to be like that?"
That's how the childfree among us feel too. :(
It's sad that anyone has to hold those attitudes about someone else in order to make themselves feel better.
It really is. And it's something we really can't ignore.
I think, from reading your comment especially, that people on both sides are feeling diminished and marginalized. As a childfree feminist, I'm finding my own issues are rarely addressed, and it feels like it's all about breastfeeding and the right to choose one's birth experience. Those things are definitely very important, but I also think it would be nice to see more about the way a lot of mainstream culture assumes motherhood is the ultimate goal of every woman, and shames those who don't. (Defying those mores is a feminist act too!)
Ideally, I'd like to see more open, respectful dialogue between feminist mothers and childfree feminists (as well as those still on the fence or those who are childless). We all have things to contribute, and our goals, even when not the same topics, stand to benefit us all.
happiestsadist, you are right. It shows how we must all be aware of each other, and that even if our roles are different, we are still intellectually valuable to feminism. I think we all need to be careful when we discuss different issues. If an issue relates to childfree women, there is little value added by mothers complaining this doesn't relate to them, just as it isn't very helpful for childfree women to complain that issues of motherhood are irrelevant to them. We need to talk about ALL the issues, and each issue should be allowed a space.
It isn't ok for cis-women to complain that trans issues are irrelevant, or white women to complain that WOC issues are irrelevant. We need to extend the same respect to both mothers and childfree women.
Yes! All voices in feminism are valuable, and all deserve to be heard. And if everybody is feeling like they're not heard, that needs to be addressed too.
word.
to your mother.
(sorry. couldn't resist.)
(Off topic, but I love your screen name -- it's from A Wrinkle in Time, right?)
It is indeed!
"I also think it would be nice to see more about the way a lot of mainstream culture assumes motherhood is the ultimate goal of every woman, and shames those who don't. (Defying those mores is a feminist act too!)" - happiestsadist
Yes, it would be nice! I second that. That's why places/people like those here on feministing are so valuable. Surrounding oneself with others who do not pressurize women or make women feel in any way less than for not procreating is important.
I'd like to offer my support to women who do not want to raise children. I didn't have children till my thirties and I know very well what it's like to feel pressure (mostly pressure I put on myself!)
I think mothers are so worried -- terrified even -- that people will think that they do not love their children if they utter anything negative about pregnancy and motherhood. The last thing on earth we want is to make children feel unwanted. Motherly love -- we could all use MORE of it!
See, why couldn't you talk like this in your post to me? I had to read all the way down here to see that you actually had some thought and brains, and not just piss and vinegar.
I agree with you. You probably know that, for women who know they don't want children, there is hardly a doctor who will consent to giving her a tubal ligation unless she's 1. over 30 or 2. already has children. It's insulting for the medical community to think that women can't make a decision. Even though this doesn't apply to me because I'm already 1 and 2, it's still something that hurts my life, because it's so damn wrong.
So look. I'm sorry that you feel marginalized. I for one am scared of earthmama's, because I don't see my uterus as being more important to me than my left foot. But do you think we can put aside the vitriol for a moment, because this is actually good? Or do you want to continue hating on me?
If you want people to talk to you respectfully, maybe you ought not to sneer at them and condescend to them.
Um, this coming from someone who talks about "widdle pweshus" and "stroller-pushing placenta brains"? And that's not even to mention the comment of yours that was deleted. I have nothing to say to you, and will apologize for nothing.
I'm shocked that the comment about "stroller-pushing placenta-brains" hasn't been removed. I'm not quick to take offense because I have a sense of humor, but whoever this person is -- (mdc1267, it's much easier to abuse when shielded by a screen name) seems to actually hate women with children. Isn't that misogynistic?! I do not know mdc1267's circumstances, however I think this is the behavior of a bully.
While I understand why such incendiary remarks would be deleted, in a way I hope that those remarks stay up, because they ARE what we have to face, whether it's said directly to us or behind our backs. And at least this way, we know who we're dealing with.
MOOOOOOOOOOO, cow. MOOOOOOOOOOO. And stamp your hooves and shake your fucking udders for good measure while you're at it.
You do realize you sound insane?
Speciesism and misogyny. Yep, we got ourselves a bully here.
You started out with a really disrespectful stance that makes me pretty defensive.
But yeah, if we agree that these issues affect us all, things will go a lot better if we start out a bit more polite from the beginning.
Well look. I didn't mean "this" in the way that you took it. In retrospect, I can see how you could interpret it that way, but damn, you didn't give me any chance at all.
If you want to call that backpedaling then fine - we can stop this discussion right here. I have a lot of other things I can do than have some pointless online fight. But what I'd rather do is just start over with this discussion, K?
Now. I can understand the societal pressures on women to have kids. Hell - I'm Asian, we have to reproduce. I've been told, point blank, that there is no point to my life if I don't have children. And silly me, I figured maybe they were right, even though I knew having kids wasn't that important to me. Well, 10 years later, I've got these kids, and it's pretty cool, but I can also see how it could have turned out really bad. So, I respect, maybe even admire, people who know how they feel about reproducing, and then stick to that even under societal pressures.
That said - there is no prize for motherhood. Society doesn't give you a cookie or anything. They applaud you, and then demand your martyrdom in exchange for a pedestal. Really, it feels just like so many other screwed up choices that we face as women (like whether to have sex, how we dress, and for me, whether I date a white person or not...), where society will condemn you no matter which way you go.
You asked me in a previous post why I whine about this. Well, because of all the places I would hope to get neutrality on the issue, I would have hoped that if would be among feminist women, you know, women who haven't bought into the idea that all we are are these reproductive parts or an airbrushed doll. I can't speak for the other parents here, but I couldn't be happier if the community said to me, "you know what, we don't give a rat's ass that you have kids, because they're not your whole identity anyway". But comments like "widdle pweshus" and "stroller-pushing placenta brain" brings the focus right back to my uterus, which again, is only one of many body parts. If you've taken any ethnic studies courses, that kind of comment, IMO, is just like "slant-eyed bitch" - it takes away everything else that you are, and puts you, in a very demeaning way, back down to what they hate most about you. And that's what bothers me. And I would never, ever say that about you and your decision.
So no. I don't hate on the child-free. I'm sorry if you felt that maybe I did. If I've explained well enough here, will you MAYBE cut the next person some slack? Because this sucked.
I am confused by what you are claiming is a divide. Is the divide between between older and younger feminists? Moms and feminists? I'm confused.
I am 22 year-old mom and feminist. When I want to discuss my children I go to playgroups or parenting forums, when I want to discuss feminism I go to feminist meetups or here.
There are some people who feel the need to loudly proclaim that they are childfree and I find it rude and disrespectful to those of us who have children. For that reason, I try not to talk about my children in conversations that do not pertain to them. It's respect for other people's life choices and it goes both ways.
I do not feel a divide between the topic of children and feminism. They are two totally different topics and when they overlap there is usually a great conversation that occurs.
I feel more welcome in most feminist communities as a parent than I do in parenting communities as a 22 year-old. My age is often a big divide between other moms. Once again, I feel like this post overlooks the fact that young women are parents too!
I totally agree with what you said and feel the same way. I go to one place when I want to talk about parenting and others when I want to talk about politics. I don’t see anything wrong with this, but maybe the fact we feel we need to go to two different places is the divide she’s talking about (I’m not sure to be honest).
I’m 23 and I feel like my age is more of a problem with other mother’s as well. I also feel a disconnect with parenting blogs because I’m an atheist. Not that I’m crying “persecution” or anything, I just don’t feel like I have as much in common with most parents at a lot of these places.
There are some people who feel the need to loudly proclaim that they are childfree and I find it rude and disrespectful to those of us who have children. For that reason, I try not to talk about my children in conversations that do not pertain to them. It's respect for other people's life choices and it goes both ways.
Sounds as if you're insecure about your own choices.So what about the people loudly proclaiming "Well I'm a parent!"? As if we should bow to their greater wisdom.
And yes, it is nice when parents don't bring up their kids in every_single_conversation. The world is not fasinated with your offspring.
I call myself childfree because childless implies a loss or a temporary state. Esp. as a woman where it's assumed that I'll have kids eventually. THAT is part of the backlash against feminism.
Well I think the point is that no one on either side wants to feel like they have to be apologetic about their choices, or like they have to justify, because really it's a personal choice that needs to be respected.
I've certainly felt that way, I don't want to be an obnoxious parent - but at the same time, if someone's going to be offended by the very existence of my kids, then I really can't tolerate that, either. And that's when the dialogue goes away.
I re-read the original post, and what I see is that we, on both sides, need to know the other side's issues so we can speak to that to the larger community. Feminists on either side of the choice shouldn't be divided when it's really the larger patriarchal society pitting us against each other, you know?
"There are some people who feel the need to loudly proclaim that they are childfree and I find it rude and disrespectful to those of us who have children."
Oh, baaawww. Everything has to be about you, doesn't it? You're the precise reason that I *do* loudly proclaim I'm childfree. If it gets under your oversensitive skin, so much the better.
"Like you said, there is no "Mommy Club" or special treatment."
*cough* parking spaces *cough* your own holiday *cough* time off to watch little Brattalina in the ballet while some CF people can't get fucking time off to take their pets to the vet *cough*...
WOW. I don't know if you are simply "child-free" or more likely ANTI-CHILDREN AND MOTHERS? How can a feminist be against girls or mothers?
I am a single mom; that is, no weekend daddy or stepdad or significant other partner or support, and no babysitting grandma et c... Families like mine nurture future feminists, who may or may not make the choice to procreate.
There really needs to be unity within the movement fo realz.
How can we demand equality from others when we fail to respect our own SISTERS?
To all the babies having babies on their own.
Tupac cares, but don't nobody else care.
On using the term childfree...
Some of the people who proclaim to be childfree are loud-mouthed, ignorant asses. Just like some parents are loud-mouthed, ignorant asses. There's plenty of ignorance and intolerance to go around!
Using the term "childfree" is a way of reclaiming a certain measure of dignity. You're not childless (oh, you poor, incomplete thing), you're a complete individual (and you may even have children later, should you so choose).
That being said, all of us could probably be a bit less judgmental of adults making their own choices. Just because another adult makes different decision from you doesn't make your choice any better or any worse.
Just that recognition can go a long way to bridging divides.
This comment made me so happy. I agree so much.
Well said!
In short, I think moms and feminists need to work together more. What do you all think?
I think I'm a feminist mom. I haven't changed since I had a baby. Other than that I get annoyed with the people who assume that I think home births are a good idea just because I'm a feminist. I still work, I'm still political, I just get a lot less sleep. I read Feministing because I think of it as a feminist blog, not a "young feminist's" blog.
Thanks for all the comments. A couple points:
KateMS and ItsJustMe--I certainly don't ignore the existence of young mothers in my Nation piece; Charlie and Leticia, both in their early twenties, have a lot to say in the article. The disconnect I point to is more between mothers and non-mothers.
Also, I don't mean to criticize the content of Jess's and Courtney's books, per se--more positioning them as examples of issues that get the most attention. As I say in my post, it's not necessarily that Feministing doesn't post on these issues (I link to a few great posts), but more that these two worlds don't join forces enough. And that these "hot-button" issues aren't being linked to issues of momhood, which they definitely should be.
-Nona
It's very possible I'm being "too sensitive" here (for lack of a better phrase), but "childless young feminists need to secure their futures" puts me off a bit because it seems to imply that having children eventually is the default outcome for young women.
That aside, I think this is a great topic to bring up, and I agree that healthcare, maternity leave, and similar pregnancy/parenting issues should be an important part of feminism and social justice movements.
I wonder if parenting issues are often put on the back burner because from the get-go, a huge part of feminism has been the right NOT to have children, and that's a still a major battle when it comes to the culture wars, the courts, etc.
.
I don't think you're being unreasonable. It's bad enough to deal with the MSM and the whole patriarchal idea that women are for making babies, it's not exactly comforting to hear "when" and not "if" about the subject in feminist communities.
Nona or others, I'm hoping you can answer a linguistic question I've had that is reflected in the OP and comments here: Is there a significance to the use of the term "mom" to the exclusion of "mother?"
I ask because some blogs and writers on motherood and parenting use the term "mothers," which is the term I use when I write--but then, I do not have children. Other mothers, though, exculsively use the term "mom" [or "mum"]. And yet others rely mostly on the term "mommy" or "mummy"-- e.g. "Many mommys of many feel they don't have enough time to..."
I wondered whether, in your experience as a person well-versed in "motherhood" blogs and internet culture, there was some subtle distinction or meaning to the use of either Mother or Mom or Mommy.
thanks! (and thanks for the names of those blogs; I'll check them out).
I haven't studied this, but I would hypothesize that it has to do with the development level of the writer. If the writer is called "mommy," that's likely how she refers to other mothers just because it's what she hears all day long. Same with "mom." Since "mother" doesn't seem to be used much by kids nowadays, I think writers that use that are just going for a more formal tone.
Whoops, that should be "development level of the writer's children" !
In my experience, a lot of "mommy bloggers" actually hate that term. Some really embrace it. The ones that seem to embrace it are the ones who are writing primarily about what they experience as moms- the diaper changing, the runny noses, the lack of sleep. There is a strong sense of community among those moms, and they have a regular routine of reading each others blogs. It is about finding others who understand you, seeing you aren't the only one.
The ones that call themselves "mom bloggers" often see themselves as "moms who blog" rather than "bloggers who blog about motherhood", if that distinction makes sense. These ones are the food bloggers and book bloggers, and others who blog about motherhood but maybe add a bit more commentary, political, emotional, or otherwise.
Many don't want any maternal adjective- they want to be called "bloggers".
If you go to mombloggersclub.com, there is a forum and this comes up pretty regularly.
Good point.
I go by "beat blogger," because sometimes my blog beat is parenting and sometimes it's politics and sometimes it's the economy and sometimes it's social justice. Depends on who is paying, usually. ;)
This is an excellent question. Before I had my son I read a great feminist book about motherhood, “The Mommy Myth: The Idealization of Motherhood and How It Has Undermined All Women” by Susan Douglas and Meredith Michaels. I highly recommend this book to any feminist, especially if you have kids or are going to have kids.
Anyway, they address the “Mom” vs. “Mother” question early on in the book and I loved what they had to say because it totally articulated how I felt about being called a “Mom” (I, personally detest “Mom” but it’s so pervasive, you cannot escape it!)
To quote:
“And have you noticed how we’ve all become ‘moms’?...’Mom’- a term previously used only by children- doesn’t have the authority of ‘mother,’ because it addresses us from a child’s-eye view. It assumes a familiarity, an approachability, to mothers that is frankly, patronizing; reminiscent, in fact of the difference between woman and girl. At the same time, ‘mom’ means you’re good and nurturing while ‘mother’ means you’re not. (Note the media uses of ‘celebrity mom’ versus ‘welfare mother’…” Pages 19-20
Next time you watch the news on TV, see what the context is when they talk about someone being a “Mom” vs. “Mother” Moms are always good, Mothers are the ones killing their children. It’s freaky!
My son (who is almost four) calls me “mommy” which I’m fine with because no one else calls me that. As much as I hate “mom” I know most people are comfortable with it and like it, so I don’t get worked up about it. When he’s older I’m going to ask him to call me “mum” which is really just the British version of “mom” but at least it won’t grate on my ears. My own mother hated “mom” as well, we all called her “mum” as older children/adults.
I’m not sure this answers your question, but it is one perspective on it.
That book sounds really interesting.
I should have mentioned that this book is also relavent to anyone who does not want to have kids...it talks a lot about all the stupid social pressure to have children and how it is bad for everyone.
I guessed it touched on that a bit from the title. I've looked at it a few times in the bookstore, but I hadn't heard reviews one way or the other yet.
Now I want a copy!
It COMPLETELY answers my question, and articulated for me precisely why I always get a nagging feeling of uneasiness when I see people calling themselves "moms." (Let's not even touch "mommies").
I couldn't quite put my finger on it, considering that usually the people using "mother" and using "moms" had many demographic similarities (especially in relation to education, social class, and income).
Why, I wondered, did "Mom" strike me as jarring when "mother" didn't?
This book excerpt has explained why. Thank you.
(And thanks to nestra and Mama Mia for very helpful views. Mama Mia, I had no idea that "mommyblogger" was even an official term. I'm off to learn more about mothers in the Anglophone parenting blogosphere.)
The Mommy Myth is an excellent book. Just giving my recommendation...
There is a book I read, "The Mommy Wars" (authored by two women I can't recall, but very very good), where they discussed the conversion from "mother" to "mom" over time. They theorize that the conversion is directly proportional to the respect that mothers get. It used to be that no one would ever call their mother "mom". "Mother" signified respect, and the less you respected someone it would seem the more casual you would refer to them. Like "I need to speak to LaToya's Mother before you can go over to her house" becoming "whatever your mom thinks" (heard as a tone dismissing what the mom would think).
It was interesting, and just one theory. I think that part of the reason kids don't use "mother" these days is b/c of that steady decline of respect for mother hood.
Oops...it is actually the book that MiriamCT referred to (all of my books are still in transit from Hawaii to Korea). I just didn't read down all the way b/f replying. It IS a great book.
Yes, that's very true.
Oops, this was in reply to nestra's reply to me above.
First, Nona, thanks for taking my comments at The Nation to heart and mentioning my blog and MOMocrats here in this piece. One thing I'm wondering, though, is this -- there seems to be an assumption that "mom" bloggers aren't working mothers. I can tell you there are plenty of us who are mothers and bloggers (who don't necessarily include ourselves in the "mommyblogger" category -- and not that there is anything wrong with that) who are writers, lawyers, health professionals, lobbyists, and many, many more things.
I wonder if the bigger issue isn't one of trying to get more women's voices into the mainstream media generally? We all have plenty of space here in the blogosphere, but where are our voices -- young or slightly older, mother or child-free, in the more mainstream conversations on these topics?
While I'm glad The Nation was interested in blogging, feminism and mothers, I'd love to see more thorough discussions on these topics to make real change and not just stir up disagreement among ourselves. :)
Sometimes there is a disconnect. For instance, participating in a Fem 2.0 Twitter conversation, I was attacked for suggesting that Corporate America needs to be more flexible with mothers and other care takers if they want to keep the best people in their work force.
I was told by many, in no uncertain terms, that I should sacrifice my happiness and my kids' happiness so that the next generation of men and women will be treated exactly the same. I don't think that's what Feminism is about, but many (mostly childless) insist that it is and that I can't call myself a feminist if I don't parrot their viewpoints. In other words, I'm not "allowed" to look at feminism through the lens of motherhood.
Dads need that flexibility, too, if we want them to participate. The fact that my boss is a woman and has a kid about the same age as mine makes it a lot easier when I need to take my daughter to the doctor, and I'm so glad I don't have to deal with any, "Can't your wife take her?" attitude.
Uh, *all people* need that flexibility. Childfree people have lives too, including elderly parents and pets to care for.
True.
Mike, I couldn't agree with you more. I think that dads getting more workplace flexibility -- and the stigma being removed from men taking paternity leave and reduced schedules --- should be a key goal of feminism. Perpetuating the idea that women should be primary caretakers hurts men and women.
I'd join in any movement to provide that for Dads, not the least of which because it solves a big part of my problem: it's easier for me to get away from my work to take care of family things (because I'm a woman) than for my husband, who would pull his full weight, if he could. He actually had a boss say to him, "Don't you have a wife for that?" I actually had one of his bosses say to me I had to ease up on my expectations of my husband at home because I was harming his career. And that was before we had kids, even!
It's just as terrible. Frustrating.
Right - the current way that employment works harms dads, and anyone else who might need work hour flexibility to take care of other responsibilities.
This is similar to how health benefits for registered domestic partners was spearheaded by the LGBT community. Now, as a result, heterosexual couples have (in large part, BTW) benefited from the establishment of these rights as well. These days, it's still the norm or the assumption that the female parent is the primary caregiver and so therefore flexible work hours, telecommuting and on-site daycare is a "mom" issue, when really it's an "everyone" issue. Just look at FMLA - while it may have originally be written to protect the employment of women who go on maternity leave, it also protects fathers, and non-parents who need to take leave to care for another person.
In that sense, I feel that if we supported this movement to reform employment, even though it's currently under the umbrella of "women's issues", it will ultimately benefit everyone.
...if we want them to participate...
Yeahhh they are his kids too, so I should hope that they readily volunteer...
I understand the idea of a disconnect within the community between mothers and non-mothers. I think many mothers get the sense that childfree women, particularly young women, have a sense that motherhood is a kind of victimization or a kind of loss. If you talk about an issue that fits within that dynamic, for example, not working because the workplace is not parent-friendly, then you are good to go. But if your perspective is not exactly that, it feels less safe to speak. When I said in a comment here once that I thought motherhood could be a creative outlet, I was told there is nothing creative about being a mother; kids just happen.
My perspective is different now that I have a kid. I understand things in a different way, and I don't very often see that reflected here. When Linda Hirshman came out with her book calling stay at home moms traitors to feminism, there was almost silence in response here. It was called "compelling", if I recall correctly. When she basically called women traitors if they don't report rapes, the response was strong. I'm not equating the two experiences, just comparing the reactions when a sub group of feminist women is shamed. I think that is why some feel a disconnect.
These are wonderful points and I agree completely. The time I spent home with my kids really opened up my artistic perspective and led me to a profession that I had dreamed about, but had never had the time, energy, or courage to pursue before. But when I've mentioned that in certain circles, I've gotten the blank stare and again the comments about "I could never just take care of kids all day."
About having a different perspective after having children, I think that adds to my frustration when nonparents talk about parenting issues. Until I had a child, I couldn't understand the feeling of being completely heartbroken, worried, and in physical pain about leaving a child in someone else's care. I'm not saying childcare is bad or working as a mother is bad, I'm just saying that if you haven't experienced it, you can not understand. To have someone who is not a parent explain to me, in words or in attitude, that I'm just a pushover of the patriarchy is frustrating.
Not to discount your experience, but have you considered that your concern about leaving your children in the care of others comes from a social conditioning? I would imagine that most men don't feel this way (they place the childcare burden on their wives after all). I would think that upper class women who were raised by nannies and without the expectation of raising their own children would not share your experience.
I think your feelings may come from the cultural narrative that says a good mother won't let anyone else care for her children. I'm not trying to illigitimize your feelings at all. I just don't think that they are universal. I respect and support your desire to raise your own children.
I object at the implicit claim that those who disagree with you now will change their minds when they have children. That seems just as wrong as others telling you that you should work and hire childcare services.
I would say that different people will experience parenting differently. Some feel confident leaving their children with someone else, some feel strongly they want to do it themselves. It is too simplistic to say it is just social conditioning. Many women strongly feel they would never stay home with a child, then have one and can't leave. Many women strongly feel they want to stay home, then they desperately want to go back to work. It is more complicated than just social conditioning. And as she was trying to explain, she finds it frustrating to be told she is a pushover to the patriarchy, which is what you basically did. I'm not saying that social conditioning as a concept is irrelevant- depending on where they are, women are conditioned both to stay home and to go back to work. But the fact that people who are certain on both sides often change their minds shows there is more at work.
I do not think that she is a "pushover to the patriarchy." I think that she is acting in a way that reflects her upbringing, and I leave it at that. It is common for the upper class, particularly in impoverished areas with cheap labor, to pay for child care. This is no better and in many ways worse than full-time parenting. In some places, it is most desirable to send ones children to boarding school. In most of the world, men have little parental burden. I think that all of our beliefs and decisions are in some way informed by society around us.
All of these choices should be analyzed, but I wouldn't (and didn't) call someone a "pushover to the patriarchy" after reading a 150-word post. The only thing I really objected to was nestra's claim that the childless (childfree sounds so arrogant) would change their opinions when they had kids. That implies an essential parental, or more accurately, maternal mindset. I'm usually weary of essentialism, and this was no exception.
"It is common for the upper class, particularly in impoverished areas with cheap labor, to pay for child care. This is no better and in many ways worse than full-time parenting."
At least being a stay at home mom isn't the *absolute worst* thing to be. Now I feel welcome in feminism!
I understand your objection and it is something that I will have to give some time to think about. I guess a better way to put what I mean is that I don't think people without children can know how they will feel until they have children. I honestly do not think anyone is self-aware enough to know definitely how they will respond to something with as many variables as a birth (will the child be special needs? will there be health complications for the mother? will financial status change? will there be an unexpected death in combination that vastly changes one's perspective?). With that in mind, I find it irritating when someone not only assumes they know exactly what they will do, but judge me for my actions when they don't know the environment that surrounded my decisions.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think someone without children will definitely change their mind when they have children. I don't know how I would be different if I found myself with a new child tomorrow. The birth of my first child, which was days after my partner became unemployed and a close relative committed suicide, was a much different emotional experience than the birth of my second.
I don't believe that ANYONE knows who they will be tomorrow. More specifically toward the issue of motherhood, I think the average parent is probably more aware than the average nonparent of how lifechanging a child can be. That is all I meant.
Amen. I used to be married to someone who didn't want kids, and I didn't care much. Then I married someone else, and very much wanted us to have kids.
And I remember being a bit bummed when she got pregnant because it meant I could no longer opine willy nilly about the parenting styles of our friends. Having to actually raise a child definitely played hell with a lot of my theories.
Oh, mine too. Then there came a second one and I realized that I was not really an expert in childrearing, I was an expert in rearing one specific child. We had to develop a whole new bag of tricks for number 2.
They definitely keep you guessing, but they also let you play on slides, jump in the carnival moon bounce, and go to petting zoos without people looking at you suspiciously.
Someone below mentioned that there are a lot of life altering experiences beyond becoming a parent, and I agree completely. To me, explaining what you are going to do/feel/be like when you become a parent (or worse, why it is better than the actions/feelings/behaviors of the person you are talking to!) is akin to explaining to someone who has just lost their mother how you will feel and what you will do when your own mother dies (and why it is better than how they feel). I don't think anyone knows for sure how they will be changed by something so big.
"the childless (childfree sounds so arrogant)"
Oh, isn't that special. I identify as childfree, and if that sounds "arrogant" to some stroller-pushing placenta-brain, so be it.
I'm childless, and I don't see myself having children in the future. "Childfree" is arrogant because it makes children out to be a great burden that you're proud not to have. It's a slap in your parents' face. Say "childfree" all you like. I can't stop you from sounding silly.
I feel that for me, children would be a burden, and an immense one. I am free of that burden.
""Childfree" is arrogant because it makes children out to be a great burden that you're proud not to have. It's a slap in your parents' face."
Oh, ffs. Go look up "breeder bingo." You're hitting every square on the card. And you're not even a breeder... just really desperate for their approval.
Children *ARE* a great burden, and I would *NOT* be proud to have them. If you and your moomy friends are offended by that statement, that's your problem.
This crap is exactly why I've come to hate feminist blogs. I'm tired of having to step delicately around the hypersensitivities of moomies who want the entire world to validate their choices. Well, guess what? You ain't gettin' any validation from me. Suck it up.
It would be a huge, unwanted burden to me! If calling myself CF is enough to insult parents, then I'd say they are insecure. Give me a break.
I'm not quick to take offense about things because I have a sense of humor and I also realize sometimes people say things they do not mean. But mdc1267, whoever you are, such abuse is clearly misogynistic. It's easy to abuse when hiding behind a screen name. What a joke.
How is it arrogant to prefer a term that does not inherently imply lack?
It's disrespectful to refuse to use a term a group prefers to describe itself.
I'm childless, and I think "childfree" is arrogant. It sounds like disease free or drug free, and I don't think of children as diseases or drug addiction.
I don't think that children are so negative that one should be proud to be free of them.
As I said upthread, they would be negative for me. But please, continue. The best feminists deny others their right to self-label.
As I said upthread, they would be negative for me. But please, continue. The best feminists deny others their right to self-label.
Childfree is from what I know of the interwebs, a respectful, nonjudgemental term to refer to someone who does not want kids.
I am Childfree.
ChildLESS implies a lack of something.
I can't believe you just equated the term to drug use.
I think YOU'RE arrogant, especially in your comparison of CF people to drug users (and you can claim all you want that this wasn't your intent, but GMAFB).
I can't stand childless women like you, who insist on guilt-tripping the rest of us into cow-towing (pun intended) to Teh Altar of Teh Saykrid Yooterus. Not interested, unapologetic, and quite frankly amused that you're so offended by it.
BAAAHAAAAAA!! I'd rather be a drug user then someones mother. I've had two abortions and I'm soooo glad I had that option available to me. I can't stand babies.
"Until I had a child, I couldn't understand the feeling of being completely heartbroken, worried, and in physical pain about leaving a child in someone else's care."
Parents, including mothers, have done that since time immemorial. Only in this day and age do we get overprotectiveness and neurosis to that degree framed as "parental concern."
Since mothers have been breastfeeding a whole lot longer than they've had the option of bottlefeeding, I would say that the need to be with their infants every hour or so and the physical pain that results when you aren't is more evolutionarily universal than you credit.
And here is my problem. Just because you aren't a parent doesn't automatically make your views and opinions on parenting and children invalid. Maybe the non-parents lack of direct emotional involvement can offer a perspective that offers insight. But if you're not a parent, parents automatically dismiss you. I find this quite amusing when I apply things I've had dismissed and they work.
Why too are parents who are told by another "I couldn't take care of kids all day." insulted? The person has just said they couldn't do that they weren't judging you. Do we need to always put validation on the front end of it? - "Wow you're so great I couldn't do that."
I would have loved to have children but it didn't work out. I'm still intensely interested in them, find development fascinating, their perspectives enlighting and want to be the kind of adult that kids turn to. Yet adults, parents in particular, automatically assume that I don't like kids. Fortunately children are more perceptive. I cannot count the number of times that I've seen shocked looks on parent faces when children interact with me in ways that show they trust me to be careful of them as human beings. And that to me is one of the big issues in our culture today. Children are treated and viewed as creatures apart, precious, objects instead of being viewed as humans. Granted they are in need of our care and protection but that shouldn't make them things. Sorry that was a bit tangential.
I think what nestra was talking about is a little different from how you interpreted it. You removed the word "just" from her statement of "I could never just take care of kids all day." It is one thing to say you aren't the type to take care of kids all day. That's fine. I don't think I could do retail all day, myself. But often, the word "just" is thrown in there, which is full of meaning. On top of that, she has probably had the same experience I have, which is immediately following that statement comes another one. People have told me they could never stay home with kids because they have a brain, because they don't want to kill their souls, because they are feminists. I have been asked if I felt my brain had atrophied, if I felt I had abused taxpayers by going to a state college and then throwing away my education. It is hard to take that as a neutral statement.
But your point that everyone has the right to comment on parenting issues is true.
Thanks for pointing that out. Wow, people can be such assholes. Sad for them that they won't see the incredibly enriching challenges of helping a young human to learn about the world and themselves. I get it though, people often just see the screaming kid and don't want to hear instead of seeing a screaming kid as an opportunity to help someone develop a sense of proportion. For me those moments when I've been able to kneel in front of a child in that state and say "This won't be for ever and you don't have to make yourself feel this bad." and then have them get it have been some of the most momentous and enriching of my life because of the simplicity and the human connection in it.
Yes, the "just" changes everything. I think it would be reasonable to tell an RN that you personally "could never be a nurse," but if you say that you "could never just be a nurse," it becomes insulting.
"Sad for them that they won't see the incredibly enriching challenges of helping a young human to learn about the world and themselves. I get it though, people often just see the screaming kid and don't want to hear instead of seeing a screaming kid as an opportunity to help someone develop a sense of proportion."
Gee, thanks for trying to guilt-trip those of us who can't stand screaming little ankle-biters into thinking we're missing something by not working with them. I'd rather remove my own uterus with a rusty spork, thanks.
My but we're defensive. You missed what I see as the main point of what I was saying entirely with your "those of us who can't stand screaming little ankle-biters" They are HUMAN BEINGS not things, not some other form of animal god damn it. If you bothered to know any they are capable of the full range of human emotions that you are including being judgmental and bitchy - they have a new perspective on the world that can be amazingly clear-headed and exciting to witness. They don't scream all the time, sometimes they sing and dance and laugh and openly and willingly share their joy. It is sad for you that you are unwilling, and I choose that word deliberately, to open yourself to the full human experience. That said you don't HAVE to be or work with them just don't disparage and diminish them.
"They are HUMAN BEINGS not things,"
Then maybe their doting handlers should teach them to ACT like human beings in most places, instead of little animals.
"including being judgmental and bitchy"
Oh, LOL. Can't have someone being judgmental, now, can we?
"They don't scream all the time, sometimes they sing and dance and laugh and openly and willingly share their joy."
And they're equally fucking annoying then, too.
"It is sad for you that you are unwilling, and I choose that word deliberately, to open yourself to the full human experience."
Yes, because "the full human experience" is incomplete unless I love sticky little crumb-grinders. There isn't a bucket big enough in the world to puke into. Sorry, ain't my idea of fun. I'm sure there are things you may not find fun, but I don't insist you do them and then simper at you about how you're missing out on so much. Oh, wait, I forgot, brats are sacred somehow.
The full human experience can be different from person to person. I could feel bad for those who never know the peace and fulfillment of not having children, and not having to be endlessly trying to justify children as an accomplishment any greater than others.
But I don't I leave you to your experience, and know that you're probably happy. Though the condescension that we're so deprived (of something that's about as appealing as a tapeworm to us) is a bit suspect of how satisfied you are.
Wow, that's incredibly disrespectful. I didn't know that happened, though I'm not surprised, sadly. I can't imagine putting in that kind of hard work being a good parent and then having it handwaved away.
(See this kind of learning is interesting. Mothers and childfree really need to communicate more so we can stop this disjointed crap.)
Really and as I've thought about it further I cannot think of anything less deserving of a "just" than full-time (or even part-time for that matter) parenting. I mean talk about a multi-tasking, physical, mental challenge! You're right we do need to talk with each other more about this. I'm resolving to not shut down when I get the feeling that a mother is discounting me for not being a mother - trying to remember that she's probably been treated to that kind of disrespect and will make an extra step at connecting.
I think that is the best, most uplifting post I've read all week. You nailed the problem, in my opinion. I think that many mothers feel so discounted that it comes off as (and likely is) defensiveness. I know that I will be watching myself for those sort of reactions.
Wait a minute, but what about the Mommy Wars? If we are talking respectfully, what will we get self-righteous about?
The thing that annoys me most is how people can't see past their own difficult experiences. Yes, it is true that people have been nauseatingly rude about being an at home mom, but I also know that women that work outside the home also get the same treatment, as do women with no children. But people get so wrapped up in the insults they have received, and can't imagine that others get different insults. There is a belief within a lot of the feminist circles that SAHMs are treated like queens, which may be true somewhere, but isn't truly the default. The fact is, we are all treated like WOMEN, which means we all get a ration of crap. Just different kinds. To me it feels like SAHMs get it worst, but that is just because of my own perspective. To working moms, they feel they get it worst, and childfree same thing. There is no default "good mom" or "good woman" in our society, despite what people keep insisting.
Ok, now I will stop yelling about us all getting insulted. Let's all go back to holding hands and being friends!
Better yet - let's hug! And then go back to pointing out inequity - we've got the next generation of women to look out for.
I'm really glad there is such a lively and interesting discussion going on about this topic. I have been wondering lately, why the closer I get to giving birth, the less I read/write on feminist blogs. Is it that I don't feel relevant right now? Or is it that I'm wrapped up in thinking about the smaller picture of motherhood for me and my situation? One thing I know for sure, is that my priorities are changing. For instance, I feel that I have less time to think/write/discuss about certain issues that I once would dive into at length, and other issues are more important now. This is perhaps simply the evolution of thinking patterns, but I think it has a lot to do with this so-called feminist/mother divide.
Other comments have said things like they discuss "feminist" things on feminist blogs and get parenting stuff from "motherhood" blogs, etc. I found have myself doing the same thing, except that I don't like it one bit- because my philosophies about my pregnancy and how I will parent are inextricably linked to my feminism. And though I always thought I would continue to do paid work for the things I care about even after having children, the logistics and economics of that are looking less realistic, and when facing the choice of working and paying someone else to care full time for my baby or doing what I can at home and doing the care work myself- I'm going to choose to stay home. (And I recognize what a privilege this is, to have a partner who works which would allow me to stay home.) This is something my pre-parent feminist mind NEVER would have considered, and so internally and externally I feel disconnect and conflict between being a "mother" and being a "feminist."
I think a lot of tense feelings may be because, in my experience as not having children and not sure if I ever want them-I'm not seen as complete. I'm told I'll change my mind, etc. Motherhood is still seen as the be all end all of being a woman, something we still have to fight against. I'm all for mother's rights-home birth, childcare, paid leave-but it does get frustrating when having children is seen as the normal route for women, even in feminist circles. B/c if rearing children is seen as the normal choice, that means those of us choosing to not have them aren't "normal"-we're those weird freaks who are too selfish, cold, blah blah. Any choice regarding having/not having them should be "normal." Feminism absolutely includes rights pertaining to being a mother, but that doesn't mean childfree experiences should be overlooked, as they so often are.
Keep in mind, though, that not all mothers feel that way---that everyone ought to be a mom. Not all married people think everyone ought to be married, too.
So hopefully, even though some extremely rude people have made out of line comments to you, you understand that this thing is *them* not you and not all parents.
Growing up, I worried---rightfully and validly--- that because my name is Julie, people perceive a bouncy flighty cheerleader sort of girl. "You don't seem like a Julie," many, many people have said to me. Oh, sorry, was unaware there was a protocol for being a Julie. I thought I was free to be me. [ ;)]
Similarly, since becoming a mom, I worry that because some people in my life call me Mom, people perceive nothing beyond my momness. "You don't seem like a mom," many, many people have said to me. Oh, sorry, was unaware there was a protocol for being a mom.
And yet? That protocol presumption is even more pervasive and a bigger obstacle than the Julie one ever was.
No, I know! I was just venting. I'm just annoyed with the parents who do talk as if it's for EVERYONE. I would never judge a woman based on her being a mother or not, and if I ever do I hope I'm called out on it. I can't stand all the expectations placed upon women who become mothers, even among couples who are progressive-she makes the appointments, makes the lunches, cleans, etc.
as a non-mom, I don't feel that I can necessarily give the same advice or speak from the same experience that other moms can and do.
it's not a matter of better or worse, just a matter of different experiences.
while I would love to hear more of everything, there is also a limit to how much moms and non-moms have in common. I think there is a place for everyone, but at some point, our interests might diverge.
we can all still be feminists though, we might just have different priorities. I think that is why there are so many different blogs and communities. Come to feministing, go off to post on a feminist mom blog, go off to read some celeb gossip, etc.
I personally go to a parenting site out of my own personal interests and for research ideas, but you won't see me posting there...I don't belong to that club yet, and that's okay.
I think we can all learn from each other though, and it is vital for non-moms, childfree, moms, etc to speak to each other. That can be in a forum where one or more of those identity categories are not the focal point -- I think they can come up in conversation, but I am not going to expect that every site can be everything to all people.
interesting post.
But why does your non-parent status make you ineligible to comment? You were a child once you still are a human being. You're right your experiences and perceptions are different, that doesn't make them invalid. I like your comment - we can all learn from each other and should speak and write about these things with each other.
I don't think it makes me ineligible to comment, I just think that I won't know until I am in that position, if I am in that position at all. I can imagine, but I truly cannot know. I think childless people often think that parenting is much more simple or obvious than it actually is. I know that I, myself, watch and listen to many parenting stories and often judge the parental choices people make. this is inappropriate of me to do, and probably has a lot to do with my own ignorance about the reality of parenting.
I don't understand why people get upset with parents for talking about the uniqueness of their experience -- it certainly is unique. I cannot imagine doing it, and I don't think one can fully imagine it until one is there. Certainly, you are right. There are many people with experience with children outside of parenting.
that being said, I think that for many people, they are fundamentally changed as a result of being parents. I dislike when people discount their experience like that, as if it is mundane. well, I suppose daily parenting life is mundane, but is changing who one is significantly. It must. Sure, I would like to think I would still be the same person, but who knows. I think my ideas and priorities would shift at least slightly.
I have a childfree (though she doesn't like the word) friend. She goes on and on about how it is terrible when mothers say that the best thing about their lives was having children. It offends her. She says, how can successful people like this say that this is the most important thing, this being a parent. Well, I think that is unfair, and this thing, this idea that being a parent is life-altering, life-shattering, is what separates people...it offends her because she thinks that parents must assume her life isn't good. At the same time, she, in judging them, and saying that their experience of having this life altering change is exaggerated, is infantilizing and judgmental.
I think there is judgment on both sides, and both sides, child and childfree need to take into account the agency and significance of the decision making process.
a little tangential, I know, but this thread got me thinking.
Exactly. We have set ourselves up in a circular firing range, all attacking each other. It isn't fair when parents tell people without children how much better their lives would be with kids, and it isn't fair when people without children tell parents to shut up since it's nothing new ("been done for thousands of years so get over yourselves", blah blah blah.)
Excellent you've said succinctly what I was inept at. We need to elevate the nurturing of young humans and expand adult involvement in the process to include both parents and non-parents. But that will require both groups of adults to behave like adults! It Takes a Village has become something of a joke but all types of adults being (feeling) responsible for the development of the young and acting in that way would make for a better world. I see the impediment to that though being something I said upthread - culturally we see children as things/objects. Hmm this also contributes I guess to the devaluing of parenting by some and it's kind of brought me back to NonaWa's original question. Could this initial view of a group of humans, children, as objects make it easier to then view women as objects? If it is then the answer to NonaWa's question is YES!
Hi all, have been so intrigued by the conversation, which evolved from a few comments some of us left at Nona's original post at The Nation. We were unable to have an actual conversation there, so I'm glad Nona came here. I put my own reply up at our MOMocrats site, "Double X Double Slam: Women, Mothers Marginalized More Than Ever?" http://momocrats.typepad.com/momocrats/2009/05/double-x-double-slam-women-marginalized-more-than-ever.html
Here's the thing---because the mom v nonmom, whether by choice or circumstance dilemma comes up a lot: at different points and times in life we all end up having to be a little more of a burden than we like, and possibly a little past others comfort level.
But if we really do expect to live in a society, we do have to anticipate picking up a little slack for others sometimes.
Before I had kids, I was in a car accident and had to go to many doctor and physical therapy appointments to recuperate.
After I had kids, well, there are a lot of appointments there too.
As a result, I get it: I get that whether you have kids or not, sometimes you have things to take care of.
But to be vicious about it, well, that's just vicious. If someone ever said to me, well I'm having a long lunch because you took personal time for your kids doctor appointment, or well you can't expect me to carry your weight because you chose to have a kid, that's just being an asshole. By the same token, if someone says oh carry my slack, you don't have kids and I do, that's just being an asshole. Sorry for language. What can I say. That's the word.
We all have our times at times.
I don't see the purpose is worrying or judging whether that time is because someone has a child or not.
Some people have them, some don't, and after years of infertility, I learned to never assume the why.
As to the disconnect, I think it doesn't matter where you are coming from, way too often, all women face a "ghetto-izing" of our voices.
I don't think we all have to come together, teach the world's women sing in perfect harmony and have a coke.
That's asking a bit much, and I doubt homogenization is really all that beneficial anyway.
But if we all work, in whatever our channel, on whatever our top cause is, then somehow, we all advance---not just ourselves, but our case and women, too.
Just my very humble philosophy...
As a resolutely child-free feminist, I often don't feel qualified to comment on issues affecting mothers. I don't have this urge to reproduce and therefore I don't feel like I have any answers when women ask how we can merge childbearing with satisfying work, equal pay and shared labour in the home. I do recognise there are ways in which my life is going to be much easier, and free of certain fights against oppression, by not having kids. As a feminist, it bothers me that it should be that way. But I suppose I feel 'on the outside' when it comes to offering answers/support to mums. Still, I'm respectful of anyone who chooses to be a mum, as long as they're equally respectful of my choices, and don't imply I'm 'missing out', deficient in some way, or not party to swathes of wisdom that only mums can possess (I was pretty offended by a comment above where a mother said that ppl who've had children understand the world and themselves better than the childfree).
Chas, I really appreciated your comment, and as a mother also thought the wisdom comment above was a bit heavy-handed. Of course mothers have wisdom that non-mothers don't have, but you could say the same thing about almost any category of people.
But on the issue of combining being a mother with also being a full member of society in other ways, I do think this is something that all feminists should be concerned about (as you said you were), because I think its something that impacts childfree women as well. The reason this is an issue in the first place is that the great majority of the working world was designed around the idea that women would do all the unpaid/poorly labor, which would then support men doing all the highly paid labor.
Back in the high-water mark of economic sexism in the US in the 1950s, women without children also suffered because of this -- women got paid almost nothing, on the assumption that (a) they had/would have a man to support them and (b) they were not long-term workers. I guess what I am saying is, even though you will never be a mom, doesn't it bother you that your male colleagues have more choices than you do (i.e., to be a dad an a full citizen, whereas for you its one or the other)?
I think that the idea that women who have children should have less choices than men with children, and the idea that women should be/naturally are the people who do most of the world's unpaid labor, stigmatizes all women.
"Indeed, feminism, the status of women would most likely advance if women stopped having children"
I agree with the general tenor of this comment, but if women stopped having children, there would be no more people! Nothing would "advance". I totally support people who choose to or for whatever reason cannot have children. After going through this experience for the last 14 months, I can tell you, its not for everyone.
But my one gripe with the child-free is that sometimes they don't seem sensitive to the fact that other people having children does benefit them. Yes, I know that you don't like hearing my kid cry on a plane, but you need to admit that if all smart people of good will stopped having kids now, the world would be a very different and possibly scary place in 30 years. I support your decision, but I expect some respect in return for the fact that I am raising the people who are going to take care of you and run society when you are old. Not to say that child-free people don't or can't contribute to the world in just as valuable ways, but just admit that my having children is also a contribution.
Sure, selfish reasons went into my decision to have kids. But the fact is the world does not function if everyone decides to be child-free.
"I agree with the general tenor of this comment, but if women stopped having children, there would be no more people!"
Just to clarify, my comment was hyperbole. Perhaps I should have said more women birthing fewer or no children. But the point I make is we need mothers, and I agree with your comments Stellarose.
Understood, I was also using hyperbole. Among ethnic Italians in Italy, I understand the women have effectively stopped having children - the birth rate of non-immigrants is way below replacement level. And I don't think this was helped the status of women, it has just allowed society to continue avoiding confronting the issue of treating mothers equally with fathers. The burden on women who do have children is even worse because they have fewer people interested in improving their lot. I don't think this advances feminism. I think what does advance feminism is doing a lot of work to totally reform our vision of people's working lives and men and women's roles, in order to get to a place where men and women have roughly equal responsibilities in the home and equal opportunities outsideof it. Look at the Scandinavian countries - they have done this, and now have increasing birthrates AND increasing economic equality between genders. It is possible, we just are not doing it here.
Very interesting, Stellarose!
As a mom and a feminist, I think there's a ton of common ground. Of my two closest friends, one is voluntarily childfree and the other wants kids but doesn't have them yet. Both are valued aunties in my son's life, and both consider him to be their son, in some capacity. The childfree friend was actually present for his birth, holding my leg and counting while I pushed. I would never want to imply that either of them, or anyone else, is a lesser person because they haven't gone through the experience of motherhood. There are plenty of experiences I haven't gone through- maybe my life is less rich because I've never gone scuba-diving, I don't know. When I talk about how the particular experience of parenting has affected my feminism, my friends listen and we have great discussions. When they talk about how their experiences have affected them and their feminism, I listen and we have great discussions. (Parenting is a life-altering experience, but it isn't the ONLY life-altering experience anyone can have.) Parenting can open your eyes, but it can also narrow your focus, and it's great for me to keep in touch with lives that are different from mine. My friends tell me they feel the same way about hearing about the role of parenting in my life. We all have a lot to contribute to the discussions.
One thing that's good to remember is that everyone, parent or not, is part of preparing the world for the next generation. Some people do this by rearing children of their own. Some people don't have their own children but take part in the lives of children- their friends' and relatives' children, foster children, children they meet via their work or programs like Big Brothers/Big Sisters. But ALSO, nearly everyone does work that affects the next generation of children even if they never interact with one. Many of us on this blog are activists for improving sex education and access to birth control- this will have effects that outlast our lifetimes. We work for equal pay for women- this will affect the daughters of this generation. Critiquing sexist ads is a way to try to make the world better for those who come after us, as is working to end domestic violence and sexual assault. Feminism doesn't (and shouldn't) revolve around children, but our work will affect the future. This is some very important common ground for parenting and non-parenting feminists to meet on.
As a mom, and a feminist, I honestly don't think that I can personally separate those things.
I'm not going to go on a feminist blog and write about the cute thing my daughter said today, but I sure as hell am going to write about not being able to find a preschool that acknowledges the reality of two working parents. I'm going to write about my issues with Disney, or the remaking of Dora the Explorer, or how other adults try to limit my daughter's choices in play or learning, because those are feminist issues.
I also fully recognize that the child-free have different concerns than I do, but that doesn't make mine or theirs less of a "real" feminist issue.
In fact, I recently did a piece as part of a series I'm doing on feminist motherhood, where I talked about instituting family-friendly policies, and I specifically brought up the ways that they could be designed to benefit everyone, not just parents.
We each bring our own perspectives, based on where we are in our lives, and each of us makes life choices that someone else could sneer at. A child-free person can tell me to suck it up and deal with a lack of child-care because I chose to have a child. I can turn around and tell her to suck it up and deal with working longer hours because she chose not to. That kind of dialogue helps no one.
I think when we start looking a how to create system-wide changes that improve the quality of our lives, a lot of those things apply to children, and teenagers, and recent college graduates, and the child-free, and mothers, and elderly women.
We need to keep feminist discussion and activism as a - forgive the reference - big tent, where we don't marginalize the issues and needs of any of our many sub-groups.
No wonder so many women with children turn into "stroller pushing placenta brains!" NO ONE BUT OTHER WOMEN WITH CHILDREN WILL TALK TO ME WITH ANY DEPTH. I've watched many of my old friends (all educated, professional, childfree feminist women) abandon me in motherhood. Am I a fundamentally different person now that I am a mother? Absolutely not. I love my son but he is not WHO I AM. I feel that I owe it to myself and to my child that I remain true to my individuality in motherhood. However, it seems that my new role as a parent has automatically put me in some other social category wherein I'm disallowed a serious commitment to any other role.
It's a struggle every day to keep my head above water when it comes to having a life outside of parenthood. Folks at large seem to feel that now that I have a child, the totality of my existence is that child. It isn't, but deprive me of all my other, non-child related connections to reality and what do I have left? My life as a mother, period. This idea that I somehow am fundamentally unable to related to women without children now that I'm a mother is both disheartening and upsetting to me.
My IQ has not dropped. My personality has not changed. I'm still the same individual I was prior to motherhood. My priorities have shifted, sure, but not so dramatically that my son is my ONLY priority. However, the less I am included in intelligent, non-mothering related discourse the more my son DOES become my only priority, simply because being his mother is the one thing I am left to be. After giving birth, did I feel as though I was suddenly inducted into some special Mommy Club where everyone respected me more and implied that my life as a woman was now more "complete" w/ child? Absolutely not. If anything, I've been made to feel like a disease, as if I've made some kind of mistake in choosing to have a child.
I don't think motherhood makes me more or less special than any other individual. Trust me, I would rather talk about feminism (or art, or music, or gender, or any of my other, non-child related interests) than diaper changes any day. But the truth of the matter is, childfree people seem resistant to me in ways that never existed before I was a parent. Whether it's because they fear I'll talk about nothing but parenting or some other, deeper reason, all I know is what I've experienced on my end- a whole lotta shaming and rejection.
"After giving birth, did I feel as though I was suddenly inducted into some special Mommy Club where everyone respected me more and implied that my life as a woman was now more "complete" w/ child? Absolutely not. If anything, I've been made to feel like a disease, as if I've made some kind of mistake in choosing to have a child."
This is a point that I think women without children might not understand. The media is so hardcore about celebrity moms and baby bumps, and there is this sense that the message is you won't be complete until you have kids. And I see so many comments about how moms are somehow treated better than women without kids, given more rights and honors. And that is the biggest disconnect, I think. Like you said, there is no "Mommy Club" or special treatment. I actually feel like I am more likely to get disapproving looks now than I did before. And as you said, it is often from my liberal friends that I feel it worst.
mdc1267, you were warned - and now you're banned.
This article by Alice Walker's daughter may be of interest. Alice Walker the feminist icon and her daughter, now a mother, are estranged.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1021293/How-mothers-fanatical-feminist-views-tore-apart-daughter-The-Color-Purple-author.html
I meant to add that I now wonder -- particularly after this discussion, *how* childfree and feminist mothers can work together. Nona Willis Aronowitz suggests we need to work together more, but in my view as long as the childfree set adhere to the feminist label, it's not going to happen. Why? Well, for one, so much energy and time is spent by posters on this site defending and protecting the rights of all groups of people, and yet nothing is said by the childfree set about children's rights.
Childfree? OK, but the mommy set are raising children that very well could grow up and be the people that take care of of the Childfree in their old age, as doctors, nurses, and so on. So the whole childfree backlash is absolutely absurd in my view. There I said it.
And while I'm at it, I want to say what I really think about those who think pregnant women and mothers are smug or what-have-you. You know why you most likely feel that way? Envy or jealousy and a refusal or inability to take responsibility for such feelings.
Feminist mothers have said over and over and over that they in no way would ever ridicule anyone for not having children and yet this just isn't good enough, there will probably always remain this divide.
Blame biology, I don't know.
How much, if any, time have you spent actually reading anything by childfree feminists? There are plenty of childfree who do support children's right. We're mostly just seeing mommy feminists supporting nothing but more for themselves and their broods. Except, of course when they're condescending to us about how we'll never know the "joy" of an experience that has no appeal to us (I love that one), or how we're not really doing anything for feminism.
Understand this: we have no jealousy towards mothers. They do get the (substantially) bigger piece of the pie, whether they're being good little Quiverfulls outside feminism, or deciding that the biggest goals within feminism should be only the ones that benefit them directly. We are not envious. We are angry. Privileged mommybloggers are by no means marginalized in feminism, and the fact that the reaction to a few childfree asking if they can get a word in is howling rage is just proof of that.
And this nonsense about how "but we're raising the future!", give me a break. You're likely not. Not all of your kids are going to contribute much of anything, and it's especially galling to tell that to the people who pick up your slack at work now.
You say you wouldn't ridicule someone for not having children, but you are now, and it is degrading. And nowhere near feminist.
Before I read any further, where, pray tell do you have any proof to back up this repeated claim:
"Except, of course when they're condescending to us about how we'll never know the "joy" of an experience that has no appeal to us (I love that one), or how we're not really doing anything for feminism."
What feminist has ever condescendingly spoken to anyone in such a way -- unless you are projecting your own feelings. Again, until there's some actual quote, there's no credibility to that statement whatsoever and therefore I have no hope for an honest discussion here.
You mean like the people on this post? Like yourself?
"And this nonsense about how "but we're raising the future!", give me a break. You're likely not. Not all of your kids are going to contribute much of anything, and it's especially galling to tell that to the people who pick up your slack at work now."
I highly doubt you are picking up anyone's slack -- certainly not mine. I work for myself.
So, what you're saying, then, is you resent supporting working mothers (as if you actually do) How comical! As if working mothers get assistance in this country. Interesting -- Feminists who do not support working mothers.
Before having children I fully supported working mothers & their children. I think as a society it's our moral imperative. I've *always* felt this way, not just because I have my own children now.
Way to put words in my mouth. I don't resent working mothers, beyond when I get told that I don't have any reason to want a major holiday off, so I shouldn't even ask. (Yes, it has happened.)
I support better childcare for parents of all sorts. And flex time for everybody.
Funny, a feminist who only supports her own interests telling me I'm not doing it right.