I originally wrote this for my personal blog
During what can only be described as a make-out session, I made it clear to this guy I had been seeing that I wanted to have sex, but that I was a virgin. At first he was really fidgety and clearly uncomfortable by the idea and I couldn’t quite understand it. I thought men loved virgins.
The first time this happened he rejected me by saying, “This is the first time I’ve ever touched you and this room smells like cigarettes.” Uh, what? We were in his room. I should have left that very moment and never returned. But we all have to date our sclubs, right? So I returned a few weekends later only to hear “I have to go to sleep” under the same circumstances.
At first, I viewed his rejection as a reflection of his own insecurities but after the second time I couldn’t help but feel humiliated. His excuse this time was original but highly questionable. Why invite me over to spend the night, take my pants off, then deny me when I consent to sex? I should’ve known right then and there that this guy was shit. Pure shit. Immense shit even.
After reading “He’s ‘Lucky,’ She’s Lolita” I felt empowered, really. Here’s why: I am a woman comfortable expressing my sexual desires. I was not in the wrong by any means. I should not feel humiliated by this experience because, as far as I see it, what he did was wrong. Sexist, even.
The logic here is that, as a young virginal woman, I do not have the capacity to make my own decisions about sex. The time wasn't "right" and the experienced man knows better; the experienced man knows when it's "right" to de-flower a young girl. (Think: candles, the absence of cigarettes smells, apparently).
I encourage you not to make assumptions about my character as that is not the point of my sharing this. I stopped seeing this guy and that should be enough. My point is: Men are terrible people. Just kidding. But really, how many times have we applauded a man for not fucking a virgin because it wouldn’t have been “right”? I’m sick of all this my-first-time shit. Sex is sex. Whether it’s the first time or the 47th time, it’s all the same. And, as women, we are undeniably capable of deciding what the time is “right,” thanks.
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You've got it; virginity is about ultimate feminine abjectivity, and for all the variously-valuated 'liberated woman' rhetoric in our society, women still get looked askance at for not prizing our hymens above rubies (I didn't let on about my virginity all those years ago for precisely the reasons you detailed). Way to take your life into your own hands!
I was once rejected by a guy on those grounds too. I didn't even want to have sex, but apparently he didn't want to make out with an inexperienced girl-- I'm not sure if it was because he was afraid it would go too far, or if he didn't want to get into it if it wasn't going to go far enough, or what. I was pretty annoyed and confused about it for awhile.
However, one thing I thought of reading your post-- You probably didn't mean it this way, but I don't think we want to say that a man who invites a woman over and takes off her pants is then *obligated* to have sex with her. If a woman can change her mind at any time, so can a man, for whatever reason, including if it just doesn't feel right.
Also, without knowing more details-- not all men want to have sex on the first or second date. Some people do like to move slowly. Saying "this is the first time I've touched you" sounds a bit like that to me.
Great post. In Yes Means Yes, Hanne Blank's essay The Process-Oriented Virgin discusses women who self-define virginity based on their own subjectivity. It was so awesome that it inspired me to write this, which I crossposted at my place and here on F-C. I'm impressed with your willingness to stand up for your own agency, and I hope you'll find a partner who accepts you as an equal.
Wait, what?
If it was YOU who had gotten uncomfortable at the last minute, and decided against proceeding, you would have been exercising your own judgement and autonomy, and it would have been all to the good, no matter how many times in a row that you got cold feet. But when HE gets uncomfortable, he's in the wrong?
It takes two people to consent. Sheesh.
She's not saying he's doesn't have the right to exercise his judgment and autonomy, but that the basis that he made his decision was, in her estimation, purely the fact of her virginity, and he felt that he HAD to repress his own feelings out of a misguided attempt to make her sexual decisions for her. This assumption denies her own agency over her sexual life and instead substitutes an imposed social model (a girl's virginity).
Where did it ever say that he said this? Maybe I'm missing something, and I obviously wasn't there, but it sounds like he just wasn't ready to have sex with her.
Playing into the "all guys want sex all the time" stereotype doesn't help anyone.
Fair enough, but I have to wonder how much weight to put on "in her estimation." Her article is short and lacking in details, but it doesn't seem to imply that they talked it through very thoroughly.
It is entirely possible that he felt that HE was the one who was not ready. Perhaps he didn't know how to deal with breaking the hymen (there are reports of pain and blood involved) and didn't want it to go badly. But I doubt we will ever hear a full accounting of his feelings on the matter.
Fair enough. I was focusing more on the argument than the story, but I do agree there is some significant un-addressed space between them in this writing.
I'll propose another explanation. Some sexually active individuals(both female and male) don't want to have sex with a virgin (male or female) because they fear that the ex-virgin will become overly attached emotionally. I've encountered lengthy discussions on the subject where the opinion was solidly against the desirability of having sex with a virgin for that reason.
So he may not be making a decision for the OP so much as wanting to avoid emotional involvement with her.
"I thought men loved virgins." Not in this century!
Not in this century!
Heh, yeah, haven't you seen Wedding Crashers? Where he wants to run away immediately yelling "virgin alert"?
I know a guy who said that one of the things he wanted to do before he died was have sex with a virgin. After me telling him how much my first time hurt, he said he isn't really into that idea anymore.
"I thought men loved virgins."
The ones that do are usually creepy, from experience.
(Or religious, I'll make that exception.)
First, I really appreciate all of the feedback!
Second, if a woman were to initiate sex and stop just short of penetration she would, without a doubt, be called a tease. Here, again, we see that when men do the same thing the reaction is different.
Third, I do not rule out any of the possible reasons for this guy's rejection of me but I feel that virginity played a large part and regardless of the circumstances it shouldn't have. As a society we place a strange value on a woman's virginity that we, as women, didn't set an cannot control. And that is my point.
She might be called a tease in the wider world but I don't think she would be called a tease here on a feminist website. (If she was, the comments would probably be deleted.) Very often there are posts about a woman who went up to a certain point and then wanted to stop, and the vast majority of the comments on this site support her right to do that and point out that if the guy doesn't listen, its rape. So, those of us saying that he has a right to stop at the last minute are having the same reaction that we would have about a story where a woman stopped at the last minute.
Did you try talking about it with him? I once had a guy flat out tell me that he didn't want to do anything with me because I was too inexperienced, so I can believe it as a reason, but there are also other possible reasons. Its quite possible that *he* wanted it to be special, and that *he* didn't want to rush into it, rather than that he was protecting you. Of course its also possible he was being a jerk, but I think communication is key.
No, he never brought it up again. When we stopped seeing each other a few weeks later he told me that, and I quote, "If our lives were Venn diagrams, our pieces just wouldn't overlap very much" and the classic "it's not you, it's me." I vote in favor of him being a jerk.
"Second, if a woman were to initiate sex and stop just short of penetration she would, without a doubt, be called a tease."
In society, yes, but I think on feministing we would hear something different.
His Venn diagrams comment is odd. Is that a roudabout way of saying you just don't have much in common?
I see what you're saying about virginity though I don't think it comes across in your post that that's why he didn't want sex. My boyfriend and I got naked with each other ages before having sex but we both knew we weren't ready for sex. If anything, I do think he should've communicated that he didn't want to have sex yet when you had first brought the subject instead of just appearing "clearly uncomfortable".
He never brought it up again, but if it bothered you you could have brought it up. You might be right that his rejection was based in sexist attitudes, but its really hard to get that from your story. Either way, its always good to talk about these kinds of things-- if you really liked him, talking about it might have resolved things, and even if you didn't, at least you'd know what his reasons were.
Also, its great that you don't care about your first time being a big deal, but it is a big deal for some people. My first time hurt really badly, and I probably wouldn't have been able to go through with it if I wasn't with someone I knew very well and trusted. Maybe this guy had a bad experience with his first time. Maybe he doesn't want the pressure of feeling like he has to be the one in charge, since he's the only one who's experienced this before. Maybe he DID want to protect you but because he regrets having HIS first time be un-special, not because you're a woman.
If he really liked you, I doubt he would have dumped you on these grounds alone. Its unclear from your story-- did he even dump you? Or did you dump him because he wasn't putting out fast enough?
Its easy to assume that all guys always want to have sex (at least with an attractive girl) and so its easy to assume that they're in a state of perpetual consent, just waiting for a woman to come along and consent. But that's not how it works. It takes two people to consent and enjoy sex, and I'm sorry but you sound like you think you were entitled to have sex whenever you want it just because you're a woman. (I wasn't so sure from your original post, but your followup comments have said things like you don't care what he was thinking and you're sure he's a jerk for turning you down.)
Ruby,
A woman would indeed be called a tease in a similar situation in some forums. Your reaction to him as a man was different, surely, but maybe not more charitable. You called him an "Immense shit". I would rather be called a tease than that!
Sex is complicated and most of us have a lot of hang-ups that we don't fully understand. I understand your frustration with this guy, but it's not a crime for him to deny you sex if it's not enjoyable for him too, regardless of the reason. I hope you find a man with whom the experience will be mutually enjoyable.
Another point-- yes, some people would have said "she's a tease," but I don't think those types of people would be saying "men have a right to say no to sex," they would be saying "he chickened out on sex at the last minute? that's so gay" or something along those lines.
Either way, its not fair to project what some sexist people might say in one situation onto commenters on a femininst blog in another situation.
I will not deny that I have a man-hating issue and a double-standard of my own but I'm working on it.
I also know that my issue with men will never have the same social implications as the issues some men have with women do but that doesn't make it right, either.
Sometimes a rejection is just a rejection. I've turned down guys who wanted to have sex with me because I didn't want to get much more entangled with someone I didn't plan on dating much longer. I've had guys turn down sex when I initiated it because they just didn't want to have sex with me. *shrugs* Like in all matters of dating and hooking up, rejection is always a possibility.
Just recently, I spent the night with a guy who I've been seeing but haven't been physical with. He didn't want to sleep with me and he's still trying to figure out if he's ready for a relationship after his divorce last year. That's fine, although it stung a little, he has his own shit to figure out that has nothing to do with me personally. My best guy friend just had a girl stay the night at his place for his birthday, something they'd planned in advance, and she didn't want to sleep with him.
Furthermore, I might suggest that some people are just not okay with perceiving that you might be using them to just get it over with - I briefly dated a guy in college who admitted to me he just wanted to sleep with me so he could lose his virginity to a "hot chick" - I was like, I like you, if you were genuinely interested in ME, or wanted to date ME, I'd jump in bed with you in a heartbeat, but I was reeeaally not into the idea of being his magic first time.
All people have different boundaries, different personal issues they're working through, different desires, etc. etc. To date them, or even just sleep with them, it's important to treat them like individuals. And if someone doesn't want to have sex with you - whether that person is a man or a woman - in the end you just have to respect that. Sometimes you're gonna get rejected. Sometimes you're not. It's life.
It's always important to have open communication with sex partners. If someone seems uncomfortable when you bring up the topic of virginity, the best thing to do may just be to ask them why it makes them uncomfortable and then share with them why you don't think having sex for the first time should be such a big deal.
And both men and women can get rejected because they're inexperienced. When my boyfriend was still a virgin he was hooking up with a girl who was about to have sex with him and she made an excuse to leave once he told her he had never had sex before. Sure, he was embarrassed about it, but it was her right to change her mind.
Like people above have said, consent goes both ways. Both men and women can refuse to have sex with anyone for any reason. And some people just don't want to have sex with people who are little less experienced. There are lots of reasons why this may be true and they're not all automatically sexist. It may be frustrating and it may be unfair that they're judging you based on your previous experience, but it's their right to choose when and with whom they want to have sex. Taking someone's pants off does not and should not automatically imply that intercourse is a given.
For some people (both men and women) the first time and the 47th time really aren't the same. For me, the first few months of sex (if we're talking PIV here) was a real learning experience. It took a few tries before it started to be really fun and pleasurable. And frankly the first time was physically uncomfortable for me. Of course this is not true for everyone, but the fact that it's a possibility may make some potential partners nervous.
I get the point you're trying to make: virgins are no less able to make decisions about sex than non-virgins. However...
I don't know this guy, but maybe he had his own hang-ups. I don't think it's fair to accuse a man of sexism for having the audacity to "deny [you] when [you] consent to sex". maybe he wasn't feeling it. maybe he was embarrassed. Who knows? imagine a man saying the same thing about a woman: she denied me when I'd already consented to sex. We as feminists are up in arms right now because some courts don't think women have the right to refuse sex once it's been initiated. This seems strikingly parallel.
I understand that we are fighting the stereotype that "men want sex, women don't". Women want sex, but not all the time. Men are the same. Consent to one person is not consent to everyone, and consent at one time is not consent all the time. For either sex.
The guy may have been shit in other ways, but I don't think you can call him shit for not wanting to have sex with you. Imagine how you would feel about the situation if the genders were reversed.
Honestly, I avoid having sex with virgins I'm not dating. Sex may have not been a huge deal for you, but for a lot of people it is, and he probably didn't want to have to feel responsible for any emotional turmoil. This is reasonable, particularly if losing his virginity was a huge deal for him.
You're mad at this guy for not wanting to have sex with you because he was uncomfortable. Would it kill you to have some self-awareness?
Also, this is where I completely lost sympathy for you:
Why invite me over to spend the night, take my pants off, then deny me when I consent to sex?
If a guy said this, we'd call him rapey, and with good reason. Just because someone is willing to go a certain distance doesn't mean that they are willing (or obligated) to go all the way.
I thought I made it pretty clear that this post was about virginity and how it has the power to completely change a sexual encounter, clearly not.
This guy was not uncomfortable UNTIL I brought my lack of sexual experience into the picture. I titled the story, "What is virginity, really?" because that's my question. It's not: What was he thinking?; What if the tables were turned?; Was he an asshole?
I don't care what he was thinking. All I care about was as soon as I said, "I've never done this before" he backed out. As if there is some stigma attached to virgins.
I don't care if the tables were turned. What if he did that and I did this? I don't give a shit because THIS is how it happened.
I am not asking you to comment on whether or not this guy was wrong or not. Because I know he's wrong. I KNOW he's a jerk. I know.
When I decided to post this I thought it would stir some thoughts about the implied meaning of virginity, as defined by society and not the virgins themselves.
Maybe he was uncomfortable, maybe he was also inexperienced, maybe, maybe, maybe. But maybe not. And the maybe not gave me a piece of mind and a new sexual identity. There is nothing wrong with that.
He's not an asshole because he doesn't want to fuck you. I don't care what kind of answers you were looking for -- if you decide that someone owes you sex and is a terrible person for not giving it to you, you deserve to get called on it.
Virginity is a big deal for some people, and having sex with a virgin is a big deal for some people. If the situation made him uncomfortable -- and it very clearly did -- you have no right to dub him a terrible person for not wanting to fuck you.
There's a way to raise this topic and discuss your experience without coming off like an entitled high school boy whose girlfriend stops at third base. This is not it.
I won't deny that the meaning of virginity and how it is perceived in society is an interesting topic, but there are a lot better ways of bringing up the issue that don't involve lambasting someone for refusing sex.
In your post you complained about this guy as if you were entitled to have sex with him. And I think that needs to be addressed because that's not a healthy or respectful attitude to have. You say you don't care what he was thinking, but in these types of situations I think it's important to ask people why they're uncomfortable. If you had done that and it had turned out the guy did have some stupid, sexist beliefs about virginity then this would have been a more intriguing post. But we really have no indication that that's true.
To address your original question. i think virginity is a social construct and it is something that people place far too much importance on. But I don't think that means that having sex for the first time is never a big deal and that people are "pure shit" for being nervous or uncomfortable about it.
I don't care what he was thinking.
Then you're not seeing him as a person, you're objectifying him. If you're going to view someone as an unthinking body for you to have sex, it's possible that sex isn't a good idea for you yet. Even in the most casual, non-relationshippy hookups where you don't know each others' names, everyone SHOULD care what his or her partner is thinking - namely, that they're thinking (and saying!) 'yes'.
You say that you don't care about 'if the tables were turned' but I want to strongly emphasize that the rules do not change depending on if the rejectee is male or female. Men shouldn't view their sex partners as unthinking bodies that exist only for their sexual pleasure either, and we certainly talk about this topic more often in relation to how society teaches men to view sex, but it doesn't stop at their feet.
You can certainly write a post about the societal construct of virginity, but you can't dictate how everyone responds (one of the 'Top 10 Rules of the Internet, TM'), especially if people are seeing a disconnect between your topic and your experience. I'm sorry being rejected hurt you, rejection sucks. I know that very well from personal experience. But there isn't always a nefarious demon lurking behind it, and sometimes you just have to come to peace with the fact that not everyone is always going to be wanted by everyone else.
This should have been a reply to Ruby's comment at 3:15 AM.
Seriously, I agree with the above; this sounds like you complaining that he doesn't have the right to decide not to have sex with you for WHATEVER reason he wants.
The truth is, he likely felt uncomfortable being someone's first, not because that made you less able to consent, but because he didn't want to be the one you always remembered as your first time. He didn't want to hold that role for you. Maybe you would have forgotten it, but that seems unlikely; I don't know anyone who really doesn't remember who their first was.
Maybe it's sexist of him to think that you deserve a better first than his stinky room and sex on the first date when he probably didn't intend on continuing the relationship. The truth is, women AND men usually want something more personal, more loving and sweet, than that, and honestly, this guy likely heard this was your first time, remembered his own, and thought to himself, man, if this was how my first time went down, I'd regret it.
Don't feel humiliated by it, but don't assume he's a dirtbag because he was considering your feelings in this. Maybe he was misguided. But he still has the right to reject you for any reason, and honestly, rejecting you because he doesn't want to be left feeling like he's used you is a better reason than most.