As an avid reader of Cracked.com, I can proudly say that I am a fan of lists. So imagine my delight when I found Listverse.com, which is exactly what it sounds like -- a buttload of lists.
I was pleasantly surprised at the topics of some of the lists. Many of them paid homage to famous or underrated women in history. The author of a list I read just yesterday had nothing but admiration for 10 famous and not-so-famous voice actresses who gave tremendous personality to the characters they voiced.
Just now, browsing through the lists, I found one called "Top 10 Lost Rules of Etiquette." I thought it would be an interesting look at behaviors which people of the past considered polite but, today, seem bizarre. I was disappointed to see that it was essentially the author complaining about how people aren't as polite today as they were in The Good Old Days. And I was doubly disappointed at what she or he had to say about item number 9, "Opening the Door":
"In days gone by, a gentleman would always open doors for ladies. Whether it be the lady they were driving, or a stranger entering a building, it was always the done thing. This has now almost entirely vanished - and it is not entirely the fault of the men. I have seen women sneer at men for opening a door for them. They seem to be confusing manners with chauvinism. My advice in this case is to smile at the sneering lady and open the door anyway."
Um, wow. Smile and open the door anyway? So if a woman feels disrespected or patronized by something a man does, the polite thing to do is to act even more patronizing and continue with the behavior anyway? I don't know about you, but my idea of etiquette in response to a woman reacting negatively to a man opening the door for her is showing some respect and maybe saying, "I'm very sorry, I didn't mean to offend you" and let her open her own damn doors and pull out her own damn chairs. It may be "tradition" to assume that women are incapable of doing even the simplest tasks for themselves, but it sure as hell isn't "etiquette."
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Instead of not accepting an open door, I generally open doors for both women and men. It's a fun way to combat the perception and since people are surprised by the gesture.
I really don't understand the whole fuss about opening doors. I open doors for people too, and complaining about someone doing such a simple and polite gesture, male or female, is just incredibly rude and arrogant.
I don't think you read my post properly, or at least you may not have thoroughly read the quote from Listverse that I gave. I have no complaints about anybody opening doors for anybody else. It's perfectly polite and can often be helpful, especially when one's hands or full. The reason I made this post is because I found it a little irritating that the author's suggested response to a woman not WANTING a door opened for her was to smile and do it anyway. If a woman's mindset is that opening doors is chauvinistic -- which I do not agree with, as like I said, I find it very polite -- then don't you think it's a little bit rude to completely disregard her wishes and just smile like she doesn't know what she's saying? It seems a little like, "Oh, you think this gesture isn't polite? You're wrong, it's universally polite, everybody thinks so." It's like the person opening the door is deciding for the other person what's respectful and what's not, even though the other person may have different ideas about that.
It seems like everyone's immediate response to this post was "THIS PERSON HATES WHEN MEN OPEN DOORS FOR HER! HOW COULD SHE REFUSE SUCH COURTESY?!" I like having doors opened for me. I like opening doors for other people. But some women do not. Some women, myself not included, equate it with chauvinism. And I simply found the suggestion that, if one comes across a woman like this, they should just "smile and open the door anyway" to be disrespectful, as if the woman can't make her own decisions about what she personally finds to be etiquette versus what she finds to be chauvinistic.
Sorry, I guess my comment came out wrong. I wasn't trying to make a personal attack on you and I agree with your point. I was just making a general statement of annoyance that some women equate door-opening with chauvinism.
No harm done. I know that tone can often be lost or misinterpreted on the internet.
I agree, the solution here is not to stop men opening doors for women, but to encourage people to open doors for other people, regardless of gender, just because it is a kind thing to do for another human being.
My father trained me to open doors for everyone. It's a nice, polite thing to do-- open doors, and give them a smile. They'll usually say thank you, back. Pleasant human interaction. Because I do this, I'm almost never offended when someone opens a door for me-- let's remove gender from the world of manners. Courtesy works both ways.
And, quite frankly, if a man is uncomfortable with a women holding a door open for him, that doesn't say a whole lot about him ..
I open doors for anyone I can, and accept from anyone who offers. I realise that some people find it patronising in certain situations, but I tend to just assume most people are doing so purely out of politeness, since both men and women hold doors open for me.
I've had people refuse to accept a door I've held open for them, and insist I go through a door first even though I clearly offered to let them through. It's almost exclusively men who refuse the gesture, and they almost certainly assume I'm a woman (although I'm actually genderqueer) so while I can't read their minds to see their specific motivation, I suspect gender is involved in it somehow.
I feel that it would be best if everyone was willing to open doors, and also to accept having a door opened for them, regardless of gender simply because it's a polite thing to do.
I do really hate it when people try to pull out chairs for me, though. I find that extremely patronising, and it has a much stronger gender connotation than opening doors does.
Once an elderly man held a door for me, and when I thanked him he said "You're as welcome as a flower in July."
It was cute.
I want to use that expression someday, but my voice tends to be rather deadpan and I'll probably sound sarcastic. :(
Yeah, that sounds like one of those expressions that only the over-65 set can pull off without sounding like they mean it ironically.
OP here -- I think you all make excellent points and I agree entirely that it's perfectly polite for people of any gender to open doors for other people of any gender. The aspect which I personally have a problem with is, if a particular woman expresses that she doesn't like having doors open for her, the implication that she's just "sneering" and you should smile and disobey her wishes anyway. If someone is for any reason upset with a door being open for them, you're allowed to think it's silly or privately roll your eyes, but I think it's rude to completely disregard them and continue behaving in a way which obviously upsets them. I hold doors open for people too, women and men and children alike, but if one of them for any reason told me "Please don't do that" or "I can do it myself, thanks" or even expressed themselves rudely, I wouldn't give them a "You don't really know what you want" smile and keep doing what I was doing. I don't find it at all "polite" to behave that way to anybody of any gender.
Agreed. Part of being kind to one another includes being sensitive to what the other person wants/is comfortable with. When a woman gives you a clear sign that she doesn't want the door opened, it is unkind to do it anyway. This behavior also is one small reflection of the belief that women don't know what's good for them, so they need wiser men to do override these decisions (with or without a smile).
THANK YOU! That is exactly what I was trying to communicate, exactly. I'm relieved that someone knows what I'm talking about. All these responses about "Why do you hate when people are polite to you? What kind of person doesn't like doors opened for them?" drive me insane because I absolutely never said that I personally dislike when people open doors for one another. You're exactly right about it being a reflection of the belief that women don't know what they want. That's just what I was trying to communicate.
If someone "sneers" at me for being polite, I have no problem fucking with them in return, they've earned it.
I do not see opening doors, etc, for women to be a sign of disrespect or patronization. I do it for quite the opposite reason; it's my way of saying that I know women put up with a lot of bullshit from men, so here is one nice little thing.
If you do not like having a man open a door for you, how about holding the second door open for him? I don't know about anyplace else, but everyplace where I live has two sets of doors.
My best friend for many years is a woman who WILL NOT open doors. Often we will both just stand in front of a door and she will say aren't you going to open the door? I say, what are you my girlfriend now? And she says she thought I was a gentleman. We have lots of fun with that.
I have never had a negative experience opening doors for women. Well, once I opened a door for a woman in a wheelchair; she told me she could open her own damn door, thank you. So I closed the door on her and went on my way. On our first date, I pulled a chair out for my girlfriend and she fell on her butt; now I am more careful about pulling chairs.
It may be remnant of the past to open doors for women, but it seems to me to still be a nice thing. I feel happy when strangers open doors for me. But what do I know; I'm only a man. :)
I learned a lesson in college. I took art classes and one evening the water was shut off. My female classmate and I were sent across campus to carry back 5 gallon buckets of water so we could clean our brushes. At the door of the art building, we were both struggling. Two male students opened the door and walked in ahead of us. And kept walking. They didn't offer to help us, or hold open the door.
I don't feel like I proved anything by hurting my back that afternoon.
What are men supposed to say? "I know you are a strong, capable woman, but I would like to show you a social grace by holding open the door for you. Do I have your permission?"
I think life is too short to be critical of other people's motives. No man that I know (and I've asked plenty about this!) considers opening the door as belittling to women. I live in Texas. The men that I know here were taught to "Treat a woman like a lady."
Ladies, it's a compliment. Another human being taking a few seconds to acknowledge you? Enjoy it!
Another thing to consider:
Is this your "dream date?"
A man comes to pick you up 20 minutes late, drives like a maniac, is embarrassingly rude to the wait staff at a restaurant, cusses at the usher at the movie theater and tries to get to second base before the credits roll.
OR
A man picks you up on time, makes polite conversation during dinner, is respectful and polite, leaves a generous tip, and compliments you on your dress.
For me, the choice is obvious.
I've dated too many a--holes before I realized the value of a man who treats me well.
I think it's great to hold open doors for people, but men should be doing it because it's a good thing to do for a human being, not because they consider it the correct way to treat a lady. It's exactly that sort of attitude in a man that makes some people think it's patronising.
I don't advocate refusing the polite gesture of somebody because you usually can't tell what their motivations are, but I can understand why a woman might be annoyed by it.
Men don't need to say anything - just open the door and if the person is a woman and she is offended by it, just leave the door and carry on walking, and consider it her loss.
"Men don't need to say anything - just open the door and if the person is a woman and she is offended by it, just leave the door and carry on walking, and consider it her loss."
Selidor - "I don't think men don't need to say anything". Sometimes it is very patronizing when guy opens a door for you, if your are a woman - and you can sense he is doing it BECAUSE you are a woman -: ie: you cannot handle anything alone.
I also don't see it as "her loss". Quite the opposite. It's a teaching opportunity for the man....hopefully he will understand and absorb that women can find it annoying and unfair. So isn't it far better to ask rather than assume?
What does it take to say - "Would you like me to hold the door open for you?" ....and then if you get a "no", back off and accept the answer - without getting defensive.
That said...it is EVERYONE'S responsibility to open doors for those who need it. It should not be a genderized thing.
I have noticed in the past ten years, in my own city centre (in the UK) that people are now much happier to push right into you and never to show ANY manners. Really - what has happened to everyone?? I was taught basic manners as a child and I still use them.
And I ALWAYS try to help those with heavy bags, etc......and I ALWAYS ask first. I
t's right because you could be invading a person's privacy if they don't want your help. And that's why it can feel annoying to women - it feels a little like your privacy is being impingned on.
I guess I was thinking more in terms of general walking around, when it's not practical to be asking people questions, i.e.: if I'm holding open the door for somebody walking a little way behind me, I'm not going to ask them whether they want me to. If it's the case of someone potentially needing help with the door because they're carrying something and someone happens to notice from nearby, then yeah, I'd say asking is more appropriate.
I agree with your idea that it could be a learning experience. I was trying to get across the idea that men shouldn't be offended by women rejecting offers of politeness, but using it as a learning opportunity is an even better thought.
Holy flipping Christ!!!!!!!!
These responses are pretty disturbing for a feminist website. Why don't you take your patronizing crap to the 1950s where it would be welcome?
1. Why would I need a man to pick me up for a date? I think I can get a cab, use public transit or walk.
2. Why should he pay the tip? Why wouldn't we split it as we split the bill? Or I could even pay?
3. Why would I date someone who is rude to waitstaff or drives like a maniac?
How is life too short to think about people's motives? That's what this whole website is designed to do.
Stop pretending that these are the only choices. Personally I don't mind when people hold open the door for me, but if I'd assumed that it was because in their mind they were complimenting me as a 'lady', I'd slam it in their faces.
While your first point is valid, the next two aren't really valid...
If a man leaves a generous tip that in no way implies that the woman did not pay for her portion or leave a tip herself.
And as far as being rude to waiters/driving like an idiot I believe that was meant to go with the theme of common courtesy of opening doors.
If someone is trying to do something nice for you, I see no reason to be a bitch about it. If someone opens a door for me, I smile and say thanks. It's the polite thing to do.
Every time you interact with another person, you have a chance to make their day just a little bit better- or a little bit worse. By "sneering" at someone who's extending you a courtesy, you make his day a little worse. By smiling and saying thanks, you make his day a little bit better- and hey, what does it cost you? Look at it that way, and there's really no excuse to react with disdain to someone who opens a door for you.
I'm sorry.
Why the Christ is this always a huge debate even on feminist websites?
I have never in my life come across anyone who thinks that holding the door for someone else is always rude, and I doubt that anyone else commenting on this thread has, either. So why, every time, the requisite barrage of posts about how "I was always taught to hold the door for everyone, the OP is just looking for something to get offended about, Jesus, get over it"?
This, LIKE EVERY OTHER DOOR-HOLDING POST ON EVERY FEMINIST SITE EVER, is about the "chivalrous" practice of men holding doors for women because they're women. It is not about men holding doors for women because they're behind them, men holding doors for women because they're carrying something, or men holding doors for women because they're the doorman. It's also not about men holding doors for other men or women holding doors for anybody. It's not about "common courtesy." It's about chivalry, which is a whole different animal.
There are only two things here:
-- The physical act of getting a door for someone, in a vacuum of motivation and with no genders assigned, is obviously not sexist.
-- Any social system that prescribes different roles for men and women just because they're men and women IS OBVIOUSLY FUCKING SEXIST.
It's not brain surgery. Stop with the straw men and the red herrings.
And for fuck's sake, can people stop commenting on feminist (or anti-racist or gay rights or trans rights or WHATEVER) sites with nothing to say but "Oh, why do we have to read so much into everything? Isn't it enough just to enjoy the society we live in without dissecting everyone's behavior all the time?" That's why we're here. If if bugs you, go read 4chan.
(And, actually, there are more than two things here. There's also an interesting discussion to be had about the middle ground we mostly live in, where we try to be nonsexist but the dictates of chivalry still have their vestigial effect and every simultaneous arrival of two people at a door becomes a study in gendered behavior. Only we can never fucking HAVE that discussion because every thread on this subject always turns into such a predictable cliche-fest.)
Seriously, it drives me nuts.
"This, LIKE EVERY OTHER DOOR-HOLDING POST ON EVERY FEMINIST SITE EVER, is about the "chivalrous" practice of men holding doors for women because they're women. "
And how exactly are you supposed to judge the intent of a male opening a door for a female?
Missed the point. Again.
It's not about judging anyone's intent in the fateful moment of door-opening. (If you're that concerned, my answer would be that you could always ask. And occasionally it's patently obvious, if a man rushes up the sidewalk to beat you to the door, or if he ignores a few men going in but whips it open when he sees you coming. Don't think it doesn't happen. See also: guys who refuse to go through doors being held by women.)
The Internet -- along with radio and TV talk shows and newspaper and magazine columns and whatnot -- is rife with people bemoaning the death of chivalry and the good old days when men knew how to treat a lady. The attitude exists in plenty. You have been presented with a prime example by the original post. And as feminists, we have a problem with this, which the OP summed up quite nicely, and AS ALWAYS, several people including yourself have leaped in to defend "chivalry" in general and in particular the poor menz who are just trying to be polite like their mothers taught them and are unwittingly exposing themselves to the shrill abuse of a bunch of man-hating harpies.
Not necessary. You are in no danger. You are not going to be kicked in the balls on your way into the post office by a feminist who's read Electrickoolaid's post and learned from it to be mortally offended every time someone with a penis touches a doorknob in her presence. All any of us wants is to talk about how it sucks that people think this way and what can be done about it, and it would be nice if for ONCE that could happen without having to soothe anyone's paranoid fears about society going to hell because clearly here is a generation of women who hate politeness. It's such nonsense, and I'm SO sick of it.
"several people including yourself have leaped in to defend "chivalry" in general"
Nope
Oh, sorry. Not defending chivalry, just diverting people's criticism of it by helping to derail the thread.
There you go! Much better.
"There you go! Much better."
Fitz: what is your point here? Using male-priveledge to get the last word (am assuming you are male)? Or making a genuine, coherent point? I suspect - the former.
I think Misspelled is mostly spot-on with her/his deconstruction of the subject! More power to you - and less to patronizing men who derail arguments and hold open doors when we don't want them to!!
A-fucking-men.
I don't mind when a guy opens a door for me if he's right there when I'm going through it, and I appreciate it if I'm carrying a bunch of heavy stuff. What's annoying is when a guy is 15 feet ahead of me and he holds the door open and stares at me like I should hurry up and get through it so he doens't have to keep holding it. Why doesn't he just walk through and trust that I can open the door myself? (Not to mention I've had this happen at semi-secure buildings where you're not supposed to let people in if you don't know them.)
I want to make it perfectly clear to absolutely every person who reads this thread that the original post is in no way, shape, or form about whether I personally find it chauvinistic for a man to open a door for a woman. This post is about why I find it sexist and unfair to disregard a woman's wishes, if that particular woman happens to dislike having doors opened for her, and treat her as if she can't make decisions for herself. I appreciate all the input, but it seems like everybody except two or three commenters have absolutely misunderstood the message I was trying to get across. That message is not, "Opening doors for people is sexist! Here's why! Everyone tell me why you disagree!" or "When a man opens a door for a woman, the woman should sneer at him because he deserves it! Everyone tell me why you disagree!"
Again, the message was that when a woman does not like having doors opened for her, I personally feel like the most polite thing to do is to respect her wishes. That doesn't mean that I myself think it's bad for people to open doors for each other, it doesn't mean I expect all women to feel this way. Everyone has completely missed the point of this post and commented based on the knee-jerk reaction of, "Oh, she hates having doors opened for her! I should tell her why I think that's wrong." That's not the issue I was bringing up and now I regret ever posting about it in the first place. Maybe next time I post I should put a huge, bold disclaimer at the beginning: "WARNING: THE FOLLOWING POST REQUIRES A BASIC GRASP OF READING COMPREHENSION."
I think a lot of people did understand your point, and I don't think everyone was saying that you hate having the door opened for you. I think your post just made people think about how they feel about "chivalrous" acts like men opening doors for women. Don't insult people's intelligence, they may just be responding indirectly to your post.
I wasn't trying to insult anybody's intelligence and I'm sorry if it came out offensively. Perhaps I'm easily frustrated and it translates poorly on the internet, considering that misunderstanding of tone seems to go hand in hand with online communication.
I suppose I just got a bit flustered with the fact that I'd expected a lot of replies pertaining to the issue that I was addressing. I didn't really anticipate that it'd mostly be, "Here's why I think opening doors is good/bad." I expected that maybe people would write something like that in addition to actually addressing the issue, but again, tone is a big issue. I complained about something related to the door-opening issue, and I got a lot of replies saying, "Well, door-opening is actually good and you should be grateful," which made it feel like a bunch of people personally addressing me, like I was horrible for not appreciating polite gestures even though I never actually said, "I personally dislike this gesture." It just seemed like maybe many people saw that the matter was "Opening the Door" and went, "Oh, I know what this is gonna be about" and proceeded to comment as if door-opening itself was the issue. That was what frustrated me.
I once had a guy laugh self-consciously and go "um, ok, thanks, I guess" when I held the door for him. That offended me at first, but then I just felt bad for him because he probably didn't know any better and he seemed kind of confused.
I wonder how the exact same response would be treated if said to a man by a woman. There's a good chance he would interpret it badly, and would not give her the benefit of the doubt as you did here.
"Thanks, I GUESS?" I find that rude, whether said by a man or a woman.
The "sneering woman" seems a lot more rare (actually, borderline mythical) to me than the "man who refuses to go through a door opened by a woman". Both of these responses strike me as impolite in their own way.
I have experienced the latter many times. (Sometimes to great inconvenience actually, because it's a real pain to do that little dance around to try to get through the door first. You have to let go of the door and then quickly dodge through and essentially leave the door slamming on the man's face. Or else continue holding it in that back-twisting way which is especially hard with a heavy door.)
Interesting that I have never personally witnessed the "sneering woman". Yet I've read about her SO many more times that it makes sense that she has become more prominent in people's minds. Why does this myth take hold so intensely? Ah, yes - that might just be "patriarchy", where women who behave in a mildly unpleasant manner are responsible for the downfall of civilization!
Right on!
I too have never seen a "sneering woman" get offended at a man holding a door for her. However, if such a mythical creature actually exists, she is perfectly within her rights to refuse what she sees as sexist behavior, and any decent human being should respect that and back off. (And no patronizing smiles please!)
That said, I think it's kinda dumb to get offended at someone opening a door, unless they're the passive aggressive type of door-holder who tries to make you run from 15' away. Those people are just jerks.
Exactly. The minute I saw the term "sneering" being used, the first thought that popped into my mind was that it was probably being unfairly used as a label for any woman who is anything other than flattered at having a man act so politely. As if women are supposed to absolutely swoon at "chivalry" and anyone who doesn't must be One Of Those Annoying Feminist Types.