I've been reading for a while now and this is my first post so I'm a little nervous. Everyone seems so informed and intelligent.
My feminsim is complicated (whose isn't?) but I'm finding that people often don't connect the reasons I have for calling myself a feminist with feminism at all. I'm a feminist because I shouldn't have to justify my birth control use to anyone, because I'm straight(ish) but not super feminine, because I'm effing tired of getting whistled and leered at and because, even though I know it's fine, I still feel guilty about enjoying sex so much. I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas as why most people (especially my generation- I'm eighteen) don't identify these as feminist issues? I'll be a poli-sci/gender studies major next year and these are the kinds of things I want to study.
0 TrackBacks
Listed below are links to blogs that reference this entry: My Feminism .
TrackBack URL for this entry: http://www.feministing.com/cgi-bin/movabletype/mt-tb.fcgi/14330
I will right now state that I do not identify as feminist and disagree with a lot of what it now stands for.
I cannot identify with a single one of the issues you raise. I'm not drop-dead gorgeous to have ever received wolf-whistles or leers. I've never had to justify my birth control choices. I love sex and have no reason to feel guilty about it.
The only thing I can identify with is the feeling of not being overly feminine. I like wearing dresses and skirts, but don't have many to start with, and ride a motorcycle, making them very impractical. I'm able to do many things previously perceived as "male" things, like maintaining my motorcycle and playing First-Person-Shooter computer games.
I'll list my reasons for not identifying as feminist.
First: Most of what I see of feminism contains a (varying from person to person or group to group)level of misandry. Since some of the most important people in my life are or have been men, I find it... distasteful.
Second: The lies which are perpetuated, such as the rapes. It seems every feminist site I go to (with some exceptions) peddles the myth that only 2% of rape claims are false claims. I wouldn't mind this assertion if some proof were offered, such as a link to a study, but there never is.
Third: The Wage Gap. I've read a few studies recently which debunk this as a myth, and the most recent one showed that childless women earn more than women with children. The biggest issue with the wage gap myth is that it's always based on an average. So all it takes is a few high-earning men to make their average higher than women's.
Fourth: The "glass ceiling". In my time, I've served under a woman CEO. In one company, I served under a woman Managing Director (who did a fantastic job to pull the company up from where it had been, but sadly, was still unable to stop it from going totally under), a woman under her who managed our section, a woman Manager, a woman Team Leader (whom I hated), had a collegue at my level in charge of Quality Assurance, and my title at the time was Escalation Manager. In an IT company, that's pretty good. In addition to personal experience, I have Julia Gillard to look up to. She's Australia's Deputy Prime Minister, and was recently named by our PM as his successor. We have more women in government now than ever before, and the only way from here is up.
Sorry the post is so long. Personally, I'd like to understand why you DO identify as feminist? What is it you think the feminist movement can do for you?
I would like to thank you from a man's perspective for recognizing that this site contains a great deal of misandry that is delibrately ignored.
...and everywhere else on the internet contains a great deal of misogyny that is deliberately ignored.
Is it really misandry, or just "something different"?
Sonja:
That’s wonderful you have such a wide swath of opportunities many other feel that they don’t have or truly don’t have. I can say that my friends and I have had quite a few experiences which don’t match up quite with your experiences. Regardless, do you believe that those campaigning for equality over the last hundreds of years have nothing to do with the way your life and opportunities are structured now? Beyond this, do you feel like you’d like to see any of the issues you mention be reversed, or that they’re unimportant or that there’s no reason to be committed to bringing equal opportunity to those who don’t enjoy the privileges you enjoy? It may just be me, but personally I feel that feminisms is as much a commitment to pursue an elimination of harmful binaries and stereotypes to bring about a more equal society as it is being committed to making sure that we maintain the rights we’ve managed to earn. As recent events like prop 8 in California have proven simple finally achieved some form of social progress does not prevent it from being rolled back.
As for the discussion of your reasons:
1) I cannot speak for what you’ve experience but most of the feminist individuals I’ve spent time with are definitely not against men. The wonderful part about humans rights is that they’re not zero sum (despite what books like Hollow Hope may want to convince you). We don’t have to replace misogyny with misandry, in fact doing so seems distinctly unfeminist to me as it doesn’t seeks to break down any structure of inequality it would simply establish a new one.
2) I think lie might be a bit strong of a phrase to use here, while I will readily admit I haven’t seen a great deal of research done into the accuracy of allegations of rape I doubt those displaying those numbers simply decided to pick a number out of thin air to use. Presumably those who are using numbers not from some kind of survey/research are using numbers related to what they’re seeing which would be less rigorous that a formal study, but not outright lies. Further, I would imagine it would be astoundingly difficult to perform such a study, as often police departments and juries will only really consider rape “real” if it fits the standard idea of rape (woman, dark alley etc) and not in cases like date rapes, or with women who have active sexual lives. Does this mean those women who the police didn’t believe or that a patriarchal society decided “deserved it” were lying about being raped?
3) I have not seen these particular studies you’re discussing and I’m generally interested in reading through them if you happen to have citations on hand. I do believe that women’s pay is often unfairly less than their male counterparts however. For example, the recent litigation over pensions where a company had been reducing pensions for female employees who took maternity leave but not for those individuals who took other varieties of medical leave.
4) As for the class ceiling, I definitely have seen the research on this issue and firmly believe that it exists. One of the situations you describe is in fact a serious issue. The manager you describe attempting to turn around a failing company is the typical instance where women are often found receiving leadership positions. There are a few (I believe relatively recent) studies that show a strong correlation between the downward spiral of a company and the propensity for the board to place female CEOs in charge of the company. Then after companies fail of course who gets blamed… Beyond this, there’s still a host of other forms of glass ceilings in careers. Take lawyers for example if you look at individual firms you’ll find overwhelmingly female paralegals and male lawyers and within the profession female lawyers tend to be moved toward family law and away from highly paid “powerful” forms of law.
Lacuna: I don't agree with CURRENT feminism. I know that first- and second-wave feminism achieved much that is worthy of admiration. But that doesn't mean I have to be gushing praise all over them for it. They sure as hell didn't do it for anyone but themselves. Anyone who says otherwise is full of it.
1) What about the feminist outcry over the Uni of Chicago group "Men in Power"? What about VAWA, itself a disgustingly misandrist piece of law? According to VAWA's very title, men cannot be victims of DV. What about garbage like this article (http://allecto.wordpress.com/2009/05/15/football-players-are-gang-rapists/) stating that all football players are a) homosexual, b) gang-rapists (based on the say-so of one woman in spite of a joint Aus/NZ police force's investigation and her own bragging about having sex with football players http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5568263/clare-bragged-johns-romp-friend/)
2) What you say is patently false. Men have spent time locked up in jail because a woman had sex, then regretted it the next day (which to my mind is NOT rape, it's stupidity). Or she cheated on her boyfriend and claimed it was rape to cover her cheating. Have a read of http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/ to see what kind of stories the cops believe and charge a man on, and how it affects his life.
3) I do indeed have citations on hand. The first was a US-government sponsored report, which was very quickly removed from the government website. You can read it (PDF) here: http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf
Next is a report from the American Bar Association. http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/many_women_lawyers_with_kids_do_as_well_as_the_men_researcher_says
And most recent is a report that non-mothers earn more than mothers: http://www.businessweek.com/careers/workingparents/blog/archives/2009/06/the_motherhood.html
4) I've yet to be convinced on the glass ceiling. If you have references, please link me to them so I can have a read (or point me to books, or whatever). In the case of the company in question (Commander Australia Limited) it cannot be in doubt that Adrian Coote (the MD when I started) was a complete moron who ran a reputable company into the ground. He was quoted as saying the following in front of competition about the IT company "The problem is all the techs running around on the infrastructure!". Ummmm.... yeah, you run an IT company, moron.
And on the lawyers issue, it's being looked into here in Aus.
"[the] Law Council [of Australia] and AWL [Australian Women Lawyers] have commissioned the comprehensive national survey. Information will be collected on the rate at which women advocates appear in superior courts, the types of matters that they are appearing in and the amount of time in court. Data on self-represented litigants will also be collected."
On the whole, I find that groups with a particular interest in sexist, racist or offensive matters will find that form of sexism, racism or whatever it is, wherever they choose to. The world could do with a whole lot less Political Correctness and a whole lot more of the main rule of the User Friendly discussion board: Do not be offensive, and do not be easily offended.
Hi, I don't usually comment on blogs and want to limit myself strictly to the gender wage gap question. The reports you cite, Sonja, are not entirely new - there's quite a few similar studies. Many of these studies find that, after controlling for factors like working hours, experience, education, personnel responsibility, and sometimes also elusive ones like "motivation", the wage gap is very "small". The numbers in the USDL report seem to be typical at 4-7%.
I'd like to make two points, though.
First, 4-7% of salary difference make for about $2-4000 annually at the US median household income, and over a typical working life of 35 years therefore for $70000-$150000 in lost lifetime income. This is by no means a small amount, and it leads directly into point two:
By controlling for all these factors, these studies are explaining away the reasons why it is mostly the women who have shorter working ours, less personnel responsibility, less experience, and less motivation than men.
If a couple is facing a difference of just those 4-7% in income if the mother versus the father is staying home with the kids, well, that's the difference between being able to pay them their college education later. Often the couple would probably decide for the woman to take time off of work based on that difference alone.
But of course, the 4-7% income difference is only if a man and a woman occupy exactly the same position in the company hierarchy and career ladder. If, all else equal, women are just a little less likely to get high-paying jobs and personnel responsibility than men (maybe a difference of just 4-7%) then again they are at a disadvantage that accumulates into additional huge lifetime income differences.
Even abstracting from the couple/kids scenario, it's still comparatively less attractive for women than for men to put in huge amounts of hours and stress to compete for jobs. The tiny edge that men have _all else equal_ may be enough to widen the gap even further because it translates in a worse trade off between work at the job and other activities (be it leisure, or kids, or activism, or volunteering, or...).
In other words, if the 4% wage gap makes all else unequal, because it causes women to have lower working hours and lower motivation and less experience, then the analysis is flawed. Not because it is bad statistics, but because the gender wage gap is not what these studies claim it is: the "base" gap that's left after you take all other factors away. Rather, it is the sum of the base gap and the additional wage gap originating in the differences in these other factors (at least as long as they are _caused_ by the base gap). Of course, it is very hard to attach numbers to these effects. But that doesn't mean that they are not important.
I cannot begin to respond adequately to this post. I will only respond to your one point on rapes for the moment.
2) What you say is patently false. Men have spent time locked up in jail because a woman had sex, then regretted it the next day (which to my mind is NOT rape, it's stupidity). Or she cheated on her boyfriend and claimed it was rape to cover her cheating. Have a read of http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/ to see what kind of stories the cops believe and charge a man on, and how it affects his life.
I saw no where in Lacuna's post where she claimed that no man has ever spent time in jail for a false rape accusation.
I clicked on your link to the MRA site falserapesociety, but this site consists only of anecdotal evidence. But all it says is that "Using the percentages that were released recently in the Daphne II study, commissioned by the European Parliament, between 8 and 9 percent of rape reports were false." It then goes on to speculate about 500 cases that could not be prosecuted, speculating that a portion of those could be false as well.
As I long time reader of Feministing and other feminist blogs, I have never heard of this 2 percent false rapes statistic from any feminists. So I did a search on the 2 percent rape claim, but interestingly enough, 90% of the links from Google are of anti-feminist sites 'debunking' the statistic. I could only find one feminist site discussing the statistic, Amptoons (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2009/04/15/eugene-kanins-study-of-false-rape-reports/), and Ampersand's comment is "I think the 2% statistic deserves skepticism and criticism." I could not find a single feminist source stating that only 2% of rape reports were false. But I did find dozens of MRA sources claiming that feminists claimed such thing and then proceeding to try and knock it down. Straw man much?
I highly reccommend reading Ampersand's discussion; it is quite enlightening. The MRA sources claim that 40 to 50% of rape claims are false, in stark contrast to a large number of academic studies, some of which do put the rate of false reporting as categorized by police departments as between 2 and 8 percent.
Furthermore, as Eugene Volokh notes, the low rate of rape reporting (the NCVS survey yields twice the rape prevalence as could be assumed from UCR police report numbers) means that any statistic on false reports is artificially high as a percentage of actual rapes.
The UCR notes that the clearance rate for rape reports (resulting in an arrest) is currently about 40% nationwide in the United States. Given the difficulty of proving the standard of guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt" of the intention of the rapist required for a conviction for private acts such as rape, it is not surprise that the conviction rate is only a fraction of that. The rape conviction rate is only 13% in the United States and 6% in the United Kingdom.
So even supposing that 20% of rape reports were false, if half of all rapes are not reported, that still only amounts to 1 false rape report in 10 real rapes. And since the conviction rate is only 13%, even if we allocate the entire quota of false reports to acquittals, we have 100% minus 13% minus 20%, or 67%. That means 67% of actual rapes never result in a conviction. Only 40% ever go to trial. In the UK, if the rate of false reporting is 20%, then still 74% of real rapes do not result in conviction. Shouldn't that statistic disturb you a little bit?
[This comment has been deleted]
You say you have heard "too many stories." Stories of your friends, from websites, media? Because they are just that: stories. Please don't say that a rape has to be "clear cut" to be prosecuted. Do you believe that a woman cannot be a rape victim if she's drunk? Have you ever heard the story of a woman who drank a little too much and found herself in a dark room trying to push a man away but couldn't? Would this not be rape to you? A big problem in our society is the not so clear cut definition of what is rape--but why is that a reason you are dismissing feminism? I still don't understand why you are completely throwing feminism out the window for the reasons you have said here. The "rape myth" or whatever, misandry, wage gap etc are not intrinsic to feminism.
And, just to be clear, the website you mentioned IS completely anecdotal, even if it does give anecdotes of men suing their accusers. Incidences of false rape are almost impossible to pin down. Yes, they do happen, but the research necessary to determine how often is difficult to do without being biased. I'm not saying that it's not a big issue, but again why is this a reason you're dismissing feminism??? You're assuming that all feminists believe certain things, or that feminism forces you to believe certain things, which just tells me you're not very educated about what feminism is.
sorry for the lack of capital letters - my shift keys are currently broken
the 2 percent false accusation figure is from a study by katz and mazur from 1979. admittedly, it is neither recent or flawless.
however several other studies conducted more recently have found similar rates. the largest and most rigorous study was conducted by the british home office and found a rate of 8 percent - however this included accusations that were simply dismissed according to the personal opinions of the police rather than evidence or a confession of false reporting by the accuser. when adjusted for this, that study found a 3 percent rate. individual police department studies in the u.s. have found rates anywhere from 1.6 percent to 4 percent. the fbi gives an unfounded rate of 5.4 percent, but this does not only include false accusations, meaning according to fbi data false accusations are less than 5.4 percent.
a combination of these studies is how a 2-8 percent rate has emerged as the consensus.
definitely not valid is eugene kanin's study, frequently cited, which found a false accusation rate in a small town to be 41-50 percent. this study was poorly defined because kanin counted as a false accusation victim recantations, which is a withdrawal of the assault report that occurs for many reasons, very frequently as a way for victims to disengage from the criminal justice system.
although there is no doubt that false accusations sometimes occur, there is no evidence at all that they are common. the reason the public believes that false accusations are the norm - a belief you seem to have bought into - is because it is this small phenomenon which is most widely reported on. we hear that story more than any other one about rape.
I work in sexual assault advocacy and have heard the 2% rate for false reports. I think the actual number has changed now, but to my knowledge false reports of sexual assaults are close to rates for other crimes. I don't exactly know what a "false report" is either - is it if the person reports a sexual assault and then they don't find any evidence or if they are actually found to have lied? That complicates things as well. As mentioned, the reason it may seem so large is because sexual assault is one of, if not the most, under reported crime.
Errm... I'm pretty sure the 2 to 8 percent is only the percentage where the police had some reason to believe that the report was false. (How good a reason may vary - some police still discard rape claims because they don't believe the victim.)
The trouble is, in a large proportion of reported rapes, the police just can't tell either way. If the women had sex when, where and with who she said she did, and there's no evidence of violence or force, there's no way of telling if she's lying or not. (In fact, even proving whether or not sex happened may be impossible.)
This is also part of the reason for the really awful conviction rate. Even if the false reporting rate is as low as is claimed, just accepting the women's word over the man's isn't really acceptable in any just justice system.
(This doesn't stop feminists proposing schemes to strip the judicial safeguards and literally make men accused of rape guilty until proven innocent, of course. It's funny how this sort of measure is always pushed for by groups that are certain they'll never be on the receiving end. See also the War on Terrorism.)
There are also various obvious social pressures that can result in women being pushed into falsely claiming they were raped; these are mostly feminist issues themselves of course. Alas, the idea that women shouldn't have sex, especially casual sex, is still around in many forms - and claiming rape now acts as a way out in a way it didn't when victim-blaming was more common.
While I appreciate and understand your viewpoint (I've heard it many, many times from friends and family members) I don't fully agree with you. I do agree that there is misandry out there, but it really isn't fair to refuse to identify as a feminist because of it. There are branches that fully embrace and in fact recognize the need for cooperation and respect for ALL groups of people.
Your second claim about the lies that are perpetuated by feminist sites seems a bit harsh. I have done research throughout my education on studies and how they are incredibly flawed and there needs to be improvement--but that's on all sides, not just the so-called "feminist" perspective. The cases you site of men being falsely accused by women who suddenly change their mind about having sex--do you have any empirical evidence on how often this happens? I know that this is a huge problem, especially because the definition of date rape is so unclear in our society (what if she was drunk? what if they both were drunk? what if she didn't say no, but didn't say yes either?). But again, this is not a reason to throw out feminism. If anything it is a reason to further explore and develop feminism to answer these issues.
About the wage gap--I think this is another area where facts and figures are thrown about without really knowing the research behind them. Yes, on average men earn more than woman this is true and this is a problem. A lot of it is because of women taking time off/taking more flexible jobs to take care of children. But is that how it should be? Why isn't it socially acceptable for a man to take time off to raise his kids? In other countries such as Denmark (I may be wrong, I met a couple a few years ago but I'm not sure if it was this country) the woman gets a year maternity leave, and the man gets a year paternity leave. There, it is more socially acceptable for men to take care of their children. This is another issue feminism is looking to work with. Also, why do women more often choose jobs such as teaching, nursing etc that are compensated at lower rates? Is it really a "natural" propensity toward these caring professions or is it a societal issue? Again, this is what today's feminism is working with, and it is a very valid question.
As for the glass ceiling, I agree that definitely there have been improvements. But I do not think there has been enough. I am very glad that you have worked under women who are capable and powerful--but not everyone has had that opportunity. There are still fewer women in higher positions (political, business, even academia) than men. Again, this relates back to the wage gap issues of child raising and how much personal choice is really personal as opposed to societal influence.
Your post reflects what a lot of individuals feel and why many young woman and men today do not self-identify as a feminist. I was lucky enough to be able to major in Gender Studies, and therefore be exposed to what is currently going on in feminism today. I hope you don't just throw out the whole idea of feminism for the reasons you posted, because there is a lot of potential in the feminist movement today and a lot that needs to be done.
Yes, misandry IS a reason to toss out feminism. A lot of the feminists I come across claim to be about equality, but look the other way or come up with excuses for things like false rape claims, the courts putting children in foster care rather than their biological father and so on. Heck, just look at a news headline where people have been killed in say Iraq. They'll always state that women and children died, but if it was just men, it's 'civilians'.
I guess my question is: What is feminism going to do for me? What advantages am I going to gain from calling myself a feminist?
So far, I've yet to see anything. I'm here at Feministing because I try to keep an open mind.
I really do get where you're coming from. I have a lot of male friends who get very offended by things they hear from people labeling themselves as feminists. But the important thing to remember is that it is the people espousing misandry and not the theory itself. Like I said, every framework has a broad range and differences among the people that ascribe to it--feminism is no different. It's not fair to say you don't want to be a feminist because some people you have talked to hate men. Feminism allows for a range of opinions and a whole lot of disagreement among its branches. I don't think there is a one "feminism" besides the common idea that men and women are equal and should be recognized as so; there are numerous ways people live this out. I think because you do recognize this misandry it would be valuable for you to stay involved with the theory, so you can point out when people have stereotypes or are being hypocritical when it comes to sexism.
And what can feminism do for you? How about enrich your relationships throughout your life, help you keep an open mind when you see others who have different values from yourself, open your eyes to oppression and hatred? Sites like this one lets people communicate ideas and learn and grow, which as someone who has recently committed the next 6 years of her life to more education, is very important to me. You don't have to call yourself a feminist if you don't want to. But personally, learning about feminist ideals and practicing them has improved my relationship with my boyfriend, given me strategies to use in my own life, and even helped me develop research questions for my work. You don't have to agree with everyone that is encompassed by feminism (I certainly don't) but that doesn't mean you're not feminist. It's such a broad, diverse framework for thinking that I think it can help everyone. If you're not into it, you're not into it, and that's fine.
[This comment has been deleted]
Yes, but do you honestly believe that ALL feminists hate men? You say that many you have talked to are such, but is that all you're basing this on?
You really don't think that oppression and hatred are that widespread? All you have to do is open your eyes. I know that there are DEFINITELY instances of people reading much much too far into normal, every day occurrences, but I think if you'd really examine a lot of things they do stem from oppression. It's not just patriarchy, it's racism, agism, classism, etc. Part of my education is in sociology, and through this I've seen how much influence culture and society have on individual decisions. That's fine--but it should be examined if people aren't as happy as they could be, or are suffering from it.
And as to a few of your other posts, it seems as if you want a lot of things that feminism does cover. The issue you mentioned with your transsexual friend getting raped--you can find numerous posts on here on that same issue. And false rapes? Yup, even that's something feminism looks at. It also seems as if you have a pretty big issue with the way research is conducted and studied. I agree, this is a huge part of my own research, but why does that make you hate feminism? Let me assure you that studies that show the wage gap does not exist, or the glass ceiling has been broken, or women are not oppressed are just as biased as studies you refuse to look at. I don't mean to "force" you to convert to feminism or anything, it's up to you, but you seem like you're on here because you want to see another view.
[This comment has been deleted]
As a woman, I should be able to drink however much I want and not have to worry about being sexually assaulted. The person who sexually assaults, whether male or female, makes a decision to sexually assault - it has nothing to do with the victim. The problem is that you're telling only one group of people - women - that they cannot do something that many other people do because they could get sexually assaulted. That's kind of like telling someone that they shouldn't carry their wallet with them because they might get robbed. Watching how much you drink does not prevent sexual assault- it reduces the risk of sexual assault. Prevention and risk reduction are two different things. It does not go to the root of the problem, which is that we live in a society that is messed up enough to accept and perpetuate rape myths and other such bs. People would not have to practice risk reduction if the risk did not exist.
I hope I don't get modded for this, because I tend to agree with you. But if a rich businessman walked into New Orleans with a wallet full of loose cash and a gold wristwatch, he would probably be mugged. And while the perpetrators have committed a crime and should certainly be persecuted, I would have a hard time finding much sympathy for the man. Because he acted like a moron.
It's a question of degree, and I don't think it's black and white
[This comment has been deleted]
You would be labeled as a victim blamer because that is exactly what you are doing.
I'm sorry. Maybe you're new to this site, maybe you're not, maybe you're an MRA. I really don't care. There are SO many rape survivors that come to this site (myself included) and the stuff you say is just incredibly offensive, insensitive and wrong. I was drunk when I was raped. Do I share any of the blame for what happened to me? Absolutely fucking not! You know who is to blame? MY FUCKING RAPIST! And it's people like you who made me want to crawl away into a corner for years and die thinking it WAS my fault. No it wasn't. It wasn't my fault that he was stronger than me and able to hold me down. It wasn't my fault that I was so scared I didn't bite his fucking dick off. It wasn't my fault that I couldn't breathe and almost lost consciousness. And it wasn't my fucking fault that when he was done I was so confused and upset and scared that all I could do when he left was curl up in a fucking ball and cry. None of this happened because I was drunk. It happened because he was a rapist.
This.
And yeah, she's a card-carrying MRA.
The only way I've ever felt oppressed is that I am unable to be the at-home mother I've always wanted to be. That oppression stems from feminists fighting to be allowed more in the workplace.
This sentiment seems classist and elitist. Where do people get this idea that before feminism women didn't work outside the home?
I'll say that I would never deny a woman's right to be in the workforce, but because women getting into work drove inflation up (more disposable income means higher inflation), it made living on two incomes essential for a middle-class living.
Look, for the better part of history women have done double duty working both inside and outside the home. And it was almost always out of necessity for all but the most wealthy and elite. Even now in cultures that forbid women to work outside the home, it is only with great social engineering that they are able to do so.
The reason you can't afford your house is likely due to hyperconsumption, market speculation, poor regulation, predatory lending, bad banking, greed and lifestyle choices.
And outside of housing, prices relative to income for most things we claim we can't live without have actually come down. In developed economies people have much more purchasing power than they did in the past. You don't believe it? Think about when cell phones 1st came out. Same with the automobile. When these items 1st hit the scene they were luxury items. Now they are commonplace purchases among all classes of people in your and my country.
Darlene:
I believe the reason many people wouldn’t consider any of the (very feminist) issues you mention to be feminist is itself complex and varying between individuals. I think that a great deal of it has to do with how successfully opponents of gender equality have managed to reduce all the feminisms to a singular idea of a movement made up entirely of man-hating, unshaven whiners. As a result, many of those in our generation (I’m in my early 20s myself) are drawn away from identifying anything they believe in as feminist or learning more about feminism due to a fear of being associated with that stereotype.
As for studying political science and women’s studies I’m interested if you’ll wind up seeing as extreme a divide between the two groups of people as I’ve seen here (and I don’t mean in the personal as political vs all IR is realist type divide). At least around where I am, many of the students of political science and to some extent many of the professors in the school are quite misogynist and espouse less than inclusive view points. This is by no means an attempt to discourage you from joining however, there are also a decent amount of wonderful folks in our poli sci programs as well, and learning about the intersection of Women and Gender Studies and traditional political studies provides a tremendous amount of ground for interesting research and it gives you a chance to shake folks on both sides up a bit :) .
"I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas as why most people (especially my generation- I'm eighteen) don't identify these as feminist issues?"
The optimistic interpretation is that feminism has been so successful in some ways that feminist values have simply become mainstream values. There is no serious political movement against adults using most forms of birth control or to criminalize pre-marital sex. Rather than feminists being the 'other,' the feminist position is the default and the "saving it until marriage" folks are the fringe. The extreme example would be suffrage; the classic feminist issue is dead because the feminists completely won. This, it seems to me, is a good thing. That being said, it would be useful if there was a greater sense of history; I think most people our age (I'm 25, so we're in the same general bracket) are unaware of the history of the pill.
[This comment has been deleted]
As a regular poster for the last six months or so, and definitely not an "MRA", imagine my shock when today I signed in to find myself banned, apparently for a dissenting opinion! Not everyone who disagrees with you is a troll, believe it or not.
Bingo! I filled out my Feminism 101 Bingo card! Where's my cookie?
Seriously, though. About 75% of the posters in this thread need to go here and read:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/
Darlene - I read your post. I see why you're identifying as a feminist. Awesomesauce and best wishes on your classes!
Maybe as you get more and more into feminism you could write some more entries for this site? I know I would look forward to them!
My personal reasons for identifying as a feminist-
Race, class, and gender interact in all aspects of life: work, family, health care, law/justice, and more. There are studies which have been cited through this and other feminist sites where women, women of color, transmen and transwomen, low income women, (any combination therof) and their families (because women are often seen as part of a family - another feminist issue) are treated differently within these aspects. Women wait longer in the ER, women have different symptoms of strokes, the government threatens to take away a women's right to choose. Hate crimes against transgendered men and women have (until recently, but not entirely) been met with a nonguilty verdict by stating "but s/he didn't tell me s/he wasn't cis, so I killed her/him."
Some issues influence me directly: I had to travel to 4 pharmacies to find PlanB. I suffered through an abusive relationship while being told by my family that "some women just need to put up with that to help their man". My house has been broken into and my insurance agent, because I told him I wasn't pleased with his service, asked to speak with my husband because I obviously don't understand how business is run (I've never been married). Some influence my friends: I have one female friend whose then-boyfriend broke into her house and beat her up at 3AM but the most he'll get with our court system (even with VAWA) is a fine and service hours leaving her scared of his return. Some influence the many more people I don't know.
(In addition to above posters) The reasons I see with other people not identifying as feminist are:
1-Feeling that first and second wave feminism worked. However both had groups that were left out who are still striving for equal representation.
2- Feminism is misandristic. Some people who identify as feminist are misandrists. There isn't a "this is how you must act - be careful about the Menz" clause to get your official I ::heart:: Feminism card. However, *my* feminism strives for equality among all sexual/gender identities.
3- Some people have somehow been privileged enough to live in the world that feminism is working towards: no problems with pharmacies or partners, strong females in authority, and many other things. I think it's great that these people and places are possible - let's make it happen all over!
I agree with Gexx and I'd like to add another reason I see many women not wanting to identify as feminists: homophobia. Many women seem to fear that feminist=lesbian and they fear being labeled as a lesbian because of the social consqucences. I saw this growing up- often when I would say I was a feminist, I would get asked if I was a lesbian, in a tone that made it clear being a lesbian was a bad thing. Girls who are not very confident or really want to get male attention may hear that question and deny being a feminist due to their own and others' homophobia. This isn't the only reason, nor is it true for everyone, but I think it a piece of the puzzle.
I don't really understand why there is so much discussion over this. I myself am not a "hardcore" feminist like most people here, which I guess to many people here would make me not a feminist at all. I don't exactly disagree with a lot of what I see here, I just find some of it hard to swallow. A big one is the "smile!" fixation. I've never in my life seen or heard of anyone (male or female) walking up to someone else and ordering them to smile. The only place I've ever heard about this supposed pandemic is on Feministing, so I remain a little skeptical. The catcalling issue, again, similar- I've only witnessed that happen twice, and both times the males doing it were both drunk and labeled as dickheads. And yet here it appears to happen whenever a girl leaves her house in anything other than a flour sack. I just find it odd. And those are only two relatively tame examples. Basically I feel like everything is magnified and exaggerated beyond belief.
On the other hand, I recognize that others' experiences could be very different from mine, and thus I could see why one would be feminist if one has had some of the experiences described on here. But, for me, personal experience trumps anecdotal evidence on the internet.
Overall I don't like the way this thread is going at all.
But on these 2 points I will agree, in that I don't think I've ever had anyone tell me to smile or even seen anyone tell anyone else to smile, and I've never really been catcalled or even seen another woman be catcall except on TV. And it's not because I'm ugly or live somewhere with all ugly women - quite the opposite actually.
I think some of these issues could come down to geography, at least that is what I always assumed. I live in Canada and it's well... better here. I have no other explanation. Because I do also often read posts on here that I can't relate to at all. And it's not just birth control and abortion and sex ed (all of these issues are handled much better in Canada) but other issues as well, where I can only assume the posters live somewhere "worse" then me because I can't really relate.
Still there are so many issues in feminism that even if some don't apply to you others will. So don't be so quick to dismiss it until you explore it further.
To perhaps offer some insight into your last question you posed -- about why people in our generation (24 here) do not identify as Feminist -- I want you to think about how we've been educated in most schooling.
We grew up with the idea of equality being part of everything. Whether it'd be racial or gender equality, we were explicitly taught that all people were equal and anything less than that is absurd. While not directly feminist, it takes the ideas of gender equality and mainstreams it. People of our generation hold feminist beliefs which they were never taught were associated with feminism. It's a symptom of cultural paradigm shift.
Certainly there are people who are in our generation and do not hold these views, but I don't think it's necessarily as popular to be that kind of conservative. We're a pretty liberal generation on whole and it's becoming reflected in our voting patterns/party affiliations.
I think one of the big failings of the older generations of feminists is that they did not do enough to make sure the younger generations (like us) actually understand what feminist values are. Those of us who are feminists in our generation are usually seen as radicals because, to identify with an "-ist", one has to be radical and not necessarily just adhere to the ideas of feminism or any other ism.
Wow. There's been some intense conversation while I was gone. A few things: First, thanks for all the advice and encouragement! Second, I just want to make one thing clear here: I love men. My best friend is male. I'm sleeping with a male. I find it much easier to be friends with men than women mainly because I had some shitty experiences with girls in middle school so I'm more comfortable with "the guys". Third, the catcalling really is an issue where I live. I walk a lot to get place and a close friend and I often have issue with it. Drunk or not, I don't think it should be okay. And last, I don't know where anyone else is but I'm in Oklahoma and getting birth control is easy so long as it says it's for controlling my out of control period. But getting a PlanB pill is really hard. I've had to get one for myself and for a friend and it requires running to multiple pharmacies.
darlene,
It's a shame that harassment is such an issue where ou live, and I can absolutely see how you might identify with feminism with those experiences. But in my *own* direct experience, it hardly ever happens, and based on that I can't identify as a hardcore feminist because I see no need for in, in the Western world at least. Again, I also find it strange that it seems to be so prevalent on feminist sites, but nowhere else. Not saying you're not telling the truth, but I think many people on here embellish their anecdotes to fit in with the rest.
Re harassment:
You've never seen the Hollaback websites? A google search will yield some interviews and minidocumentaries on harassment. There is also more academic work being done so that we have more data.
But consider that women are always being told to suck it up. And therefore most of us do. It's rarely even reported; and when it is it's usually because it has escalated to physical violence. Because of this underreporting, people such as you underestimate the level of harassment in some communities. But the kicker is if women did start reporting harassment, we'd be maligned for hurting innocent men, blah blah blah. Hey, at least we'd have the data though.
For example when I was a girl I was surrounded by about 5 boys who pushed me down and were trying to get their crotches in my face. Luckily a little ol' lady heard the ruckus and came out and scared the boys off. But when I tell this story especially to men, they say, "what's the big deal. nothing happened". After a while I stopped telling that story (now in retrospect wondering why I put so much importance on the opinion of those guys--but that's another topic altogether).
Feminist spaces are really the only places we can talk about it (and a lot of issues), without being told to shut the fuck up and quit whining.
I honestly don't remember what drew me to expanding my feminism, but I'm a better person, a better partner and someday hopefully I'll be a better parent for it.
I read this comment as one of intense privilege. Like, "I live in a really advantaged place so I don't have these problems and really have never thought about what others go through." Sorry if that sounds snarky, but well, it kind of is.
I'm a white middle class woman and I, too, have many advantages (although never being catcalled or told to smile are definitely NOT some of my privileges, seriously I don't see how people have never seen this happen!) but through reading and research and traveling and things like that I know I'm privileged and that not everyone else has the same advantages as me. And I'm not just talking about in non-western cultures, I'm talking about in the US too. And that's not right. That's why maybe you'd label me a "hardcore" feminist (although I just call myself a feminist). Not because I've experienced the worst oppression but because it's not okay that any women are dealing with any of this shit.
This is another problem I have with Feministing- every time I go against the norm, I'm labeled as "privileged" and lectured on how I should "check my privilege", and how I "can't see my privilege", so therefore I can't deny it. Well, again, I'm not going to dismiss the prospect entirely. It's possible you're right- but I don't think so. I don't live in a city slum, but neither do I live in a suburb, and my own experience tells me that harassment is not nearly as frequent as what is alleged here. I have eyes- it may not be directed as me, but I can spot harassment when it happens. You can go ahead and tell me how harassment is subtle, and I can never understand because I'm not female, but I just think you're wrong. In addition, again, the only place I'm ever lectured on this is *feminist spaces*- never anywhere else. Thus, I tend to think of such alleged rampant general harassment as untrue, because the only place said harassment is alleged is internet feminist groups.
Sonja, it looks like no matter what you simply will not identify as a feminist. That's fine. Don't be a feminist. The end.
Nance, not quite true. I've yet to see a compelling argument for why I should be a feminist, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
Why can't you do what everyone else does? Practice your own kind of feminism, start a separatist movement, be like "oh, I'm not a feminist, I'm a humanist" or do whatever it is that MRAs do in their spare time. Write a community post about parental alienation or the military draft or whatever MRA pet issue gets your particular goat. But you're wasting your time derailing every post your land on with your kneejerk reactions to feminists on the grounds that they aren't talking about the menz. I don't think you'll be content until the Feminist Goddess Herself deigns to say, "Yes, yes, we're all hypocrites, we say we want equality but really we just want women to take over because we're man-haters with daddy issues. We repent, we repent!" It's like going to a WOC blog and saying "Why aren't you covering white people's issues??!?! if you want equality then shouldn't you want equality for WHITE PEOPLE TOO?" You're projecting your perceptions of power onto people whose politics hinge on a radically different perception, and it's a completely pointless pursuit. The reality is, feminists perceive women as existing in societies in which they are relegated to a class below men, generally speaking, and therefore it seems perfectly logical to them that they, in their disadvantaged position, are not going to invest time and effort and money and work into helping people they perceive as having significantly more privilege and access to resources than them attain human rights nirvana when they're still busy climbing out of the gutter. It's why poor people aren't like "How can I help a CEO today??!" even though the CEO undoubtedly has major life problems and faces particular systemic struggles too. It's why a public interest lawyer can genuinely believe in equality and yet choose to help only poor, disadvantaged people instead of rich corporate types, despite both groups being likely to face real inequities at some point or another. It's about one's perceptions of power and privilege, and you don't share those perceptions - therefore you will never get why feminists aren't actively committed to helping the menz. They will always come off as hypocrites to you. And it certainly doesn't help your capacity for understanding that you seem to blame The Feminists for the fact that you have to work full-time (right, The Feminists totally, like, took away your choice!! how oppressive of them!!) and that you seem to think feminists have shared goals and are in general agreement (ha!!) and, if you're like most MRAs, some kind of psychic affiliation with the National Organization for Women. Just accept that this "dialogue" is pointless. You don't buy into the worldview that necessitates feminism, and they do. Accept it and move on. You don't want to be the MRA equivalent of those strangely obsessed feminists who hang out masochistically at Glenn Sacks letting themselves be eaten up slowly by resentment and frustration. Go home to the people you care about. There will be no conversions today.
Totally huge bulk of a paragraph that I almost didn't read...but I'm so glad I did! YES! I especially liked where you said: "It's why poor people aren't like "How can I help a CEO today??!"
Oh fun, MRAs. Apologies to readers and the OP for the derailment. I'm getting in there and cleaning up/banning now.
I feel like a Claritin commercial now, where it's all hazy and filled with ragweed pollen (trolls) and now there's a bright blue sky and I'm throwing open the windows and I'm wearing a pastel-coloured sweater-set and my living room has taupe carpet. YES YES YES!!
I think many women, especially younger women, are so scared of claiming themselves as feminists because of the crazy-ass warped stereotype that so many seem to believe.
That stereotype being the butchy, bra burning (it saddens me that people still believe that was a real thing), hairy-armpitted, crazy manhater.
Which is a load of fucking bullshit.
You know those shirts? Those ones that say "This is what a feminist looks like" ? I think those need to get out more. So many ignorant people can't even wrap their mind around the idea of a male being a feminist.
(By the way, men who dig feminism? Keepers.)
The truth is, feminists are as diverse as the world itself. All you gotta do is look at the sadly small section of gender studies in your local bookstore and see all the conflicting ideas/morals of feminists out there.
I understand where you are coming from, I'm 18 too, and when I was in high school people couldn't comprehend the fact that I a) was a super feminist b)had hairy armpits & c) wore dresses, skirts, and make up nearly everyday.
The more women (and men) who decide to claim themselves feminists despite what people say, the better. Eliminating the stereotypes.
If you're a female, and those issues matter to you, and you claim yourself a feminist?
Well then baby, you're a fucking feminist.