Cross-posted at Me and My Army
There are several sayings out there which talk about how a true friend will support you through the hard times as well as the good, stick by you even when they disagree with you, that sort of thing. I've been drafting a couple of posts and they got me thinking about some feminist acts I've encountered recently:
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On the news last night, I saw Zahra Rahnavard, wife to the Iranian presidential candidate and reformist Mir-Hossein Mousavi, stating her view that women should be allowed to choose what they wear without fear of recrimination by people like the current morality police. She herself was fully covered, with not a hair visible, though many of Mousavi's supporters are less strict about their headscarves.
I have a few devoutly Christian friends who would never terminate a pregnancy unless their lives were at risk, but have no qualms with other women choosing otherwise.
Feminists all over the place decide not to remove their body hair as both a political statement and personal preference, but don't chastise other feminists when they choose to be clean-shaven.
Stay-at-home mothers are often uncritical of the decision of other mothers to join the workforce. Don't let the Daily Mail fool you, these women aren't in the minority.
It's all very well to be a feminist, or to follow any political or religious movement because it happens to agree with your own personal choices. But sometimes I just feel that the true feminists among us are those who, regardless of their own beliefs and practices, are willing to trust other women to make their own decisions in life without simultaneously making judgments and demoting them as 'less good' because of their choices. Opposing all attempts to restrict our freedoms, even if you yourself may never make use of them, preferring to spread honest information to allow others to make up their minds as you did rather than force everyone to follow your own line of thought. Valuing the intelligence and experiences of other women and allowing them to make truly free decisions for themselves.
In essence, supporting every woman's right to choose - in ALL areas of her life.
What would YOU define as truly feminist?
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Argh! That middle section originally had bullet points, apologies for the messy lump it has now become!
I have three anecdotes.
1. I know a woman of color, Kenyan, who is doing mind-blowing work in different countries in Africa bringing health care and clean water to poor women living in war, famine, and environmental destruction.
She is also pro-life.
2. I once read a story about an eager white feminist, doing her Women's Studies degree, who was all excited about the feminist theory she'd been reading and already applying it to her life. As part of her feminism, she went on an exchange to a developing country to meet women there. She spoke to one, babbling about all the possibilities of feminism, and was cut off when the woman replied wearily, "Excuse me. I am just trying to dig trenches for my children to shit in."
3. Some of the most amazing white feminist bloggers I know have also hurt, ignored, and participated in the marginalization of WOC bloggers of color.
As a result of these three anecdotes, I am no longer interested in the assignment of good and bad feminist cards. Nor am I willing to define feminism.
Thanks for that. Usually I'm hesitant about putting labels on things, especially considering the huge spectrum of people within the feminist movement. But I recently found that I was losing a clear picture of what it's all about, which is why I've started asking the question, to see how we all define it for ourselves without merely asking 'what is feminism' - which tend to attract narrower, more dictionary-like definitions.
I guess it's a bit unclear from my post - it was very clumsily written, for that I must apologise. I'm trying to work out what it is that makes us see any action as 'feminist', what sets it apart from other actions. I got rather sidetracked, though. My own weaknesses are beginning to shine through.
No apologizing for posts!!
I think it's great to see feminists questioning what feminism is, and who feminists are - my only hope is that they don't come up with any answers.
I recently realized that I can't define feminism anymore, and I think that's a good place to reside in. My cultural studies professor would call it a "pocket of resistance".
While I personally prefer hanging out with feminists who don't go around handing out bad and good feminist cards, I don't begrudge those who do. I've derived a lot of amazing realizations from my feminist friend who approached me after a Women's Studies class and asked, "Hey, do you wanna get together and watch, like, really misogynistic movies?" just as I sometimes find it really empowering and important to hear a feminist say, "You know, I don't think women should wear heels, damn it!"
"No apologizing for posts!!"
I can't help it, I'm British! We apologise for everything! "I'm sorry, therefore I am... really, uh, rather sorry, old bean." ;)
This is kind of a tough question for a lot of people. For me to call a person a feminist, they would have to;
1.) Resist traditional gender roles in their own personal life, not just in public. I have seen far too many people who give lip service to progressive ideas without actually acting on them --guys who say they're cool with women asking them out, and then when it happens, they aren't; women who say they support social equality between the genders, and then expect chivalry from guys-- That crap is very bad for feminism.
2.) Be concerned with all of the possible needs, wants, and goals that traditional gender roles and tradition rules disrupt, not just with the things they personally want to do that tradition makes difficult. It really makes me sick to see people who resist traditional roles when they want to do something that tradition does not allow, but then perpetuate tradition in other areas, where it has the potential to make someone else's life harder. I know one woman in particular who does precisely this; fighting against the traditions that stop her from doing things she wants to, and imposing all other traditions on others around her, how ever sexist they may be.
3.) Be willing to ruffle some feathers. There are people I know who are sexist, but have few other real flaws; they are polite, entertaining, and might be fun to hang out with, until they dehumanise you with sexist labels and such. A feminist must not let social injustice go because the perpetrator of it is hard to go after. Sexism is sexism, no matter who perpetrates it, and no matter who it is perpetrated against. A feminist con not let a social situation, or anything else like that take precedence over the cause.
4.) Not fight sexism with more sexism, and not treat traditionalism like it is the only kind of sexism there is. Tradition is the main cause of sexism, but not the only one. A feminist can not make more sexism of a different type, or sexism going in the opposite direction, to fight tradition. That will eventually become as bad as tradition itself. All sexism is wrong, even if it isn't the type we are used to fighting. All gender roles are wrong, not just the traditional ones. A feminist must oppose all gender roles and all gender based stereotypes.
i sort of have a problem with points 1 and 2.
am i not a card-carrying feminist if i get married to a man while wearing a huge white dress and veil, change my last name to his, and then quit my job so i can stay home and raise three children?
...because, i am doing all that. i also am a mover and shaker and an activist. i have been volunteering at planned parenthood since i was 15. i call out sexism when i see it. i will teach my children, the future of our world, to treat *everyone* with respect and dignity, and to do whatever it is that they want to do.
i happen to want to do that things mentioned above, for my own personal reasons. if i was a man doing these things, id be a revolutionary. id certainly be challenging tradition.
you are wandering into dangerous territory if you say, "doing x, y, and z isnt anti-feminist." i can be a stripper, or a stay at home mom, or the director of a women's clinic, and still be a feminist.
to me, feminism is about choice. and i have thought long and hard about my choices, and they are the right ones for me. and that is what makes me a feminist.
Um...if you choose not to do something that you might like or might be good for you just because you think it is too gender stereo-typical you are still letting patriarchy define you by negating your personal choices. By over simplifying people's life choices you are turning individuals into base anecdotes.
I am sorry that you feel oppressed by one person in particular because she has a very specific definition of feminism that works really well for her but not for others and she forces it on others but please see that it sounds like you are doing the same thing.
Exactly. When I was a kid I wanted to play hockey just for the sake of breaking out of traditional gender roles. I thought it would be really feminist of me to do something that was considered to be a boy's activity. But you know what? I hated hockey and all I really wanted to do was figure skate. If I had stuck with hockey despite how boring I thought it was then I would've been letting patriarchy define my choices.
This is a tough question. Being a feminist can mean many different things to different people. Yes, for some feminists it's all about choice, for others it's about being an activist and working to end oppression towards women.
I'm glad this is being discussed because it's been something I've been struggling with. And I know there are many other feminists who probably had to deal with this as well. When I first began to call myself a feminist, it was because I heard people say, "well if you believe in equal pay for women" or "do you believe violence towards women is wrong?" Of course I said yes, but then I soon began to realize that it seems being feminist could mean more than just believing that women deserve equal pay? Feminism is much more complex than what people realize. So I do believe we should think first before we start labeling what makes a "good" feminist and what makes a "bad" one.
I think it's important to examine our choices, even when we're doing something that doesn't conform to traditional gender roles. Like Edgy1004 said, choosing to do the opposite of what tradition tells you to do is still a response to the patriarchy. An example of this would be a woman dressing in men's clothes. As progressive and feminist as this gesture may seem, they're still wearing men's clothes.
I have to admit something regarding your point about stay-at-home moms. I generally think never working outside the home after having kids is a REALLY bad idea for women. Half of marriages end in divorce, it's usually women who file for divorce, and it's almost always the women who get custody of the children. At the very least, women without their own income need to have a plan in the event of a divorce that will allow them to take care of themselves and their children before entering the workforce. Otherwise, they can end up living out of a suitcase in a hotel or something.
So when I hear or read women saying that they're going to choose to be stay-at-home moms once they get married and have kids, I warn them. They're probably not thinking that their marriage has a 50-50 chance of surviving and all of the other negative consequences women face after divorce. I would think of myself as a bad feminist if I just said, "Oh well, it's your choice."
First let me say that I agree with you that never having any income or the ability to get an income is a bad idea, just like getting a philosphy degree (sorry philosophy degree holders) or getting credit card debt. In my opnion these are all bad ideas and may hurt a persons independence. But that isn't a feminsist issue it is a issue of priorities. The same thing goes for men. If you aren't able to support yourself you are always going ot be dependent on some one else. If a friend asked my opnion I would point out some of the things I see as pitfalls for stay-at-home parenting but I wouldn't condem their choices.
More on the subject of my personal opinions, I have a BS in engineering so I am supposed to be a skilled professional so in my jerky-est moments I don't see why anyone would get a liberal arts degree but I realize that is just sour grapes becuase BA students probably had more fun in college than us enginerds.
I believe PassionFruit makes and excellent point. When I first toook Intro to women;s Studies, our professor asked us those same questions: do you believe in equal pay? do you believe women should have equal right and not face discrimination? Do you believe in an eguilatarian world? Well of course, everyone said yes. Then, she said: "Well then you are a feminist" And it is so much more thant this... I mean I have volunteered at women;s shelters, lobbied for ERA, been the president of the Wome's Studies Student Association of my schhol, and still face funny looks from fellow feminists when I say I am feminist because I wear makeup and I am what you would call a girlie-girl. Yet, it is MY CHOICE to do these things. Choice should not only apply to child-bearing matters, but to every aspect of a woman;s life. Although I have been very committed to advance women's causes and initiatives... I always find myself at odds with other things I enjoy in my life. And maybe I am not a feminist in other feminists' eyes, but that does not matter to me because I could not live my life without the ideas that I spouse.
I feel sometimes like I'm not radical enough for this site, because I feel like feminism is allowing everyone to make their own choices as to what they want to do with their life, and the fight to get those choices enshirened in law.
That means to Clay, I don't count, because I like bakin and dressing up in pretty dresses and sometimes even corsets.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I very recently got into sex work (some adult modeling, dabbled in escorting, now about to begin work as a pro domme) and now I realize that there are a whole lot of feminists out there who don't see me as a "true feminist."
I mean, this isn't entirely new -- I've never been anything close to a radical feminist, and I've always supported BDSM, porn, and sex work, and in radfem terms that makes me a "fun feminist" -- but now it's doubled. There are a lot of feminists who see me as a victim rather than a woman, and that's upsetting.
I believe that women are disadvantaged in this society, and I don't like the way the patriarchy controls certain aspects of peoples' lives. I consider myself a feminist.
I'm sure this has been discussed at great length many many times before, but, here we go again.
If you believe it is OK to FORCE me to go to term and delivery when I do not want to,
you are not a feminist.
If you try to force women and you know they will stick hangers, cleaning supplies, herbal concoctions into their uterus, throw themselves down stairs and etc.
and you still think it's OK to FORCE women to give birth, not only are you not a feminist,
you're an asshole.
If you think the govt. should jail women who attempt or go thru with abortions,
your voting for non feminists too.
Lastly, if you are too stupid to understand, after being informed time and again, that abortion doesn't go away when it is illegal, it just kills more mothers, daughters, sisters, wives
then you are not only not a feminist, you're stupid.
Stay the fuck away from my uterus and the uterus of my fellow females.
Clear enough?
Is abortion your only definition of Feminism. Not being critical I am just wondering.
I think for a lot of women that is how they feel. Some people who define themselves as feminists define it entirely as an abortion issue and some people who hate feminists feel like it is the only definition as well.
Yeah, I think there's something wrong with making feminism into a one-issue philosophy.
If you honestly believe that a fetus is a full human being, it makes sense to be anti-abortion. I think the pro-life movement has so much anti-feminist baggage that it makes it more difficult to accept pro-life feminists.
it's not a one issue feminism-
it is that any one issue can be a deal breaker-
if you feel husbands have the right to have sex with their wives when the wife says no and you don't think that is rape-
you're not a feminist.
if you beleive a woman doesn't have the right to legally abort- you're not a feminist.
I don't care how you like your sex, whether you sell ity or not-
but if you try to force me one way or another- force by body -
that is not feminist
forced full term pregnancy is not feminist.
imagine if women got as radical with their oppressors as they do about aborting when it's illegal?
I am very, very pro-choice. I think forced pregnancy is horrifying.
That said, I can completely understand how someone might be anti-abortion and also be a feminist.
That said, I don't think someone can possibly be anti-abortion, anti-birth control, and anti-comprehensive sex ed and be a feminist. I don't think it's possible to be against abortion even in cases where the mother's life and health are severely threatened and be a feminist.
Anti-abortion thought comes from two places. One is the desire to control sexuality and women's bodies -- abortion fixes a consequence of sex, and thus is demonized. I don't think this can possibly be feminist.
There's the other place that just thinks that a fetus is a human being, and can't justify legalized murder of a human being. That's not intrinsically anti-feminist. I don't agree with it, but I understand.
I think to give a specific definition that MUST work in all situations is really difficult. Although I identify as a feminist I think it hurts the movement to say that you HAVE to do this and think this and not do or think that or you can't be in the "club". Some people have feminist beliefs on some issues and some beliefs that maybe the majority of feminists don't agree with. I have been told (on this board) that I am not a feminist because I am a Christian, never mind who I volunteer with or for and what candidates and organizations I support. In some people's eye because I go to church I am out of the club. Unfortunately (or fortunately) we don't have a membership committee so I still come to the meetings.
I would say as a general guide I try not to tell other people what they are and are not. it is just too hard because I don't have the time to meet everyone in the world and give them their label.