The first time I encountered this question was shortly after one of my first sexual experiences. My best friend asked me over a screwdriver while we sat in a booth at a rock club we frequented. I managed to hear her loud and clear over the blaring music and drunken hoots of men playing drinking games at the bar. That dreaded question, often asked by curious straight girls, excited and intrigued by the secrets of lesbian lovers.
At the time, I did not understand the implications of this question. As a headstrong - and slightly tipsy - seventeen year old, I figured she was simply coming on to me. I didn't recognise the pattern of "otherness" in the treatment of lesbianism and lesbian sex by ignorant heterosexuals, or the exoticization and spiritualisation that is sometimes placed on lesbian relationships. Some lesbians encourage this exoticisation, boasting that lesbian relationships have more emotional and spiritual depth than heterosexual relationships. This is ridiculous as it is sexist, heterophobic, and completely unfounded. This kind of thought perpetuates the irritating stereotypes of women as emotional creatures, and treats them as almost sacred, mythical, goddess-like beings.
One trip to furburger dance club on a Friday night to witness myself and the other drunken dykes in action, however, ought to debunk this myth for good.
I am a lesbian. I love women. While I, like many others in this world of trillions of people, enjoy sex. I did not "become" a lesbian because I have an erotic interest in women, rather, sex naturally developed from the chemistry I had with women. Good sex comes from mutual trust, respect, practice, understanding and an electric chemistry. If you have had this with someone, whether you are gay, bi, trans, queer or straight, then you know what it's like for me to have sex with a like-minded woman.
I think my friend, over our vodka spiked orange juice, was hoping for a response along the lines of, "soft, sensual, slow; spiritual, sublime, heavenly"*
And at the time, she was probably satisfied with my reaction. I told her that the sex I'd had with a woman was wonderful and magical and awesome. It was an honest and genuine answer, but what I didn't take into account was that my experience was not seen as just another sex story shared, but rather, it played into her fantasy of lesbian sex as exotic and mysterious.
But ask me now, "What is sex with a woman like?" and if I managed to resist rolling my eyes and walking off, I would be likely to say, "sometimes awkward, sometimes amazing, sometimes downright crappy, sometimes orgasmic; just like sex has always been, and always will be, throughout the ages."
Does anyone have any other thoughts on this?
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I think you're right, I think there's definitely the element of exotic otherness going on in this dynamic. I think there's probably a lot going on in that question (speaking, for the record, as a cis-woman who is married to a man and who has never had sex with a woman). I know some straight women who ask what sex with another woman is like are asking for fundamental physical logistics because they don't fully grasp that sex does not equal PIV. Which is both bogus and sad. Then I also think that some women must imagine sex with another woman as some perfect, mystical experience that would automatically avoid all of the pitfalls of sex with men, as if women can never be inconsiderate in bed or flatulent or focused on the orgasm instead of cuddling, or whatever. It's kind of like that stupid saying about how if a woman was president there wouldn't be any wars and schools would have enough money blah blah blah, because women are incapable of being corrupt or cutthroat or just plain incompetent. Sure, it's attributing positive things to women, but it's taking away their humanity at the same time. So I really, really like your description: "sometimes awkward, sometimes amazing, sometimes downright crappy, sometimes orgasmic; just like sex has always been, and always will be, throughout the ages." Yay for real, fallible humanity for lesbians, too.
"...Then I also think that some women must imagine sex with another woman as some perfect, mystical experience that would automatically avoid all of the pitfalls of sex with men, as if women can never be inconsiderate in bed or flatulent or focused on the orgasm instead of cuddling, or whatever. It's kind of like that stupid saying about how if a woman was president there wouldn't be any wars and schools would have enough money blah blah blah, because women are incapable of being corrupt or cutthroat or just plain incompetent. Sure, it's attributing positive things to women, but it's taking away their humanity at the same time. So I really, really like your description: 'sometimes awkward, sometimes amazing, sometimes downright crappy, sometimes orgasmic; just like sex has always been, and always will be, throughout the ages.' Yay for real, fallible humanity for lesbians, too."
Right on! :)
I'm going to agree too. Having happily switched between male and female partners at various times in my life, I think the only unifying theme was when it's good, it's very good, and when it's bad...blergh.
That being said, as you obviously understand, this is intensely personal. Some gay women or gay men might feel that they are close to their partners in a way that straight couples can't be, which is...somewhat annoying in practice (I went to a liberal all women college, and the level of smug in the air was sometimes gag inducing), but hey, whatever floats your boat. People can believe in mystical connections and sublimity as long as they're not putting other people down. I guess I'm trying to say that I can't help it and don't really care if people feel superior, as long as they don't ACT superior. Just keep the supeiority and the candles and the incense and the lube talk in the bedroom, or amongst other who wish to talk about it. I have enough to think about with my own sex life.
I gots questions...
I have heard and read here and there from female bisexuals that they experience sex differently between their male and female partners.
Often they report that they can relax more fully with a female partner.
I would think that up to menopause, this could be explained in part by a fear of pregnancy. There is no worry about condoms or birth control failing, so forth and so on.
As a dude, I have been asked what is like to have sex with a girl by an ex. I didn't consider it othering or glorifying anything... more along the lines of "I ordered a burrito, how are your nachos?" comparison or search for for knowledge.
In that case, it probably was just that (I ordered a burrito, how are your nachos).
I think the difference is that your gf was asking YOU, her partner, and not a lesbian. You're right that this isn't othering, because she's asking a man who she's having sex with about his experiences. That's empathy, and it's appropriate for your level of intimacy.
As for bisexuals self-reporting, yes I'm sure it is different. But just because they're more relaxed (and I'm not convinced everybody is) doesn't mean sex is always fantastic. And, more to the point, you're talking about self-reports, which are very different from bi and lesbian women being questioned about their sex lives.
In regards to the original post, the OP was asked by her best friend... I assume there is some emotional connection there that goes beyond some random saying "Your a lesbian, what is that like?"
One thought that has been rattling around the old bean is this: To what extent is acknowledging someone is different (sexually, culturally, etc) an othering of that person?
When I look at writings about othering it is usually to justify some sort of subjugation or inequity and not as the OP describes her best friends curiosity.
I cynically imagine the following conversation between the OP and her best friend:
OP: I just had my first lesbian experience.
BF: What was that like?
OP: Don't other me.
I personally don't see acknowledging a difference as othering, nor do I see a natural gravity of acknowledging difference as leading to othering. I see the possibility, but not the destiny of acknowledging differences as leading to othering.
I do think conflating the two dilutes the concept of othering, and othering horrible results.
Further that, one thing that the OP mentioned and no one else picked up on or saw fit to address is "[s]ome lesbians encourage this exoticisation, boasting that lesbian relationships have more emotional and spiritual depth than heterosexual relationships."
While the OP did reject the notion there was no effort to address that aspect of the problem.
So one one hand curious young girls and women are having lesbian experiences hyped up by lesbians, but when they attempt to find out more they run into a meat grinder of condescension and derision (in the OP words "if I managed to resist rolling my eyes and walking off).
It put the young girls and women into a catch-22.
True, a best friend is a different level of intimacy than a casual friend or a stranger. But the OP seems to have felt like her friend overstepped a boundary, and she wrote below about the friend asking only about sex, not about the relationship as a whole. You're right that othering vs. acknowledging difference is a tricky boundary to negotiate, and sometimes the people involved have mixed feelings. But I think that your (admittedly cynical) imagined conversation is way, way oversimplifying the issue.
Thank you, Steven, for being one of the first "dudes" ever to ask a thoughtful question about bisexual women (kidding. but yes, thanks, you have no idea how rare this is).
For me, I wouldn't say I feel more relaxed when I'm sleeping with women. The exact same anxieties are there, I just replace the "he" with a "she"; does she think I'm attractive, will she get me off, will I please her, what if she never talks to me again, etc. etc. The pregnancy thing has nothing to do with it, since I take my birth control like clockwork and don't let men ejaculate inside my vagina. I will say there is less physical pain for me when I'm sleeping with a woman. Not because men are inherently more violent and women are inherently soft, gentle creatures, but because penises tend to poke things a bit strangely in certain positions. Though that claim wouldn't apply if a woman were using toys on me. So, basically, any claim I can make about how sex is with a man, I can find a virtual equivalent in sex with a woman. But that's only my experience, so who knows.
Thank you
Lesbians certainly are exoticized and assuming that your sex life is a spectacle or somehow less private is wrong. You don't have to serve as a token or a model or any of that jack.
At the same time, I will say that there are a lot of women in the world who are somewhere on the spectrum, who are sexually attracted to women and men, but are looking for help in determining their sexuality. NO, as a lesbian it's not your responsibility to help out confused girls. But there are times when they're seriously trying to discuss their potential sexuality, but they have to do it in a casual way until they're further along.
That said, it's still fine to roll your eyes and be annoyed and ignore them. I just wanted to point out that a lot of women may really be trying to get some genuine insight into something they're trying to figure out. I don't identify myself sexually as any label, but I was always more sexually attracted to women and interested in women. In the rural south, though, I just never managed to find that relationship, so I wound up with guys. There are lots of women for whom the opportunity never arises, or who are never secure enough to be sure. And while we tend to berate women who hide behind a hetero-safety net, there can be a lot of genuine need for information.
Note: I am so not saying this is a lesbian duty of some sort, just that the other chick's motives aren't always bad.
I agree with Tara K. It's absolutely not a responsibility of lesbians or any woman who has sex with women to inform another woman who has never had sex with a woman about what it is like. I mostly wanted to affirm her statement that some girls are seriously questioning their own sexuality and desire this type of information in their search for some answers. As a young woman who is questioning her sexuality I wouldn't ask a question like this based on the beliefs I have about lesbian sex. However, no one has to answer any questions that they do not want to answer. I wonder if there is a more respectful way for women questioning their sexuality to engage with out lesbians, any ideas?
Read what lesbians have already written. Look online, look for memoirs and lesbian fiction, anything that was written on the author's own terms. When I have questions beyond what reading can answer, I sometimes talk with lesbian friends, but ONLY those friends with whom I am very close- close enough that if I overstep boundaries, I trust them to call me out on it and they trust me to listen. If you don't have friends like that, you may need to live with ambiguity for a while. And really, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Because who knows if sex with a woman will be the same for you as it is for whoever you talk with? It'll almost certainly be different.
I'm bisexual, and even I ask this question though. I've never had sex with anyone, male or female, but I haven't had any sexual experiences with women at all. Ever. No courting, no kissing, no touching. But I still consider myself bisexual because I have those feelings of attraction, and I do hope to have an experience with a girl one day.
I don't see what's so bad about being curious or asking someone what it might be like to be with a girl. I ask it too even as a bi. And when I ask I don't feel like I'm othering anyone, it's just genuine curiosity. Like, 'ok, I've courted guys, what would it feel like to court a girl?' Not an exploitative question at all, I don't think. Being bi, I'm sure if the only pple I've kissed were girls, I'd wonder what it would be like to kiss a guy.
Short, snappy answer: Better.
I get this question too, and their responses to my more sincere responses are worse to me. One example would be a friend of mine who, after hearing what I had to say, responded with, "oh, then it's all just foreplay, then?"
The word "foreplay" needs to die, stat.
Yes, it does. I'm bisexual, and even in my heterosexual relationship, I don't like the word foreplay. I feel like all couples need to realize that having great sex doesn't require penetration.
Seriously, this.
If you think penetration is the be all and end all, the only thing that constitutes sex, ur doin it wrong. And missing out, to boot.
Maybe it is because a lot of people feel burdened by words meaning.
In a lot of context the term sex is linked to reproduction (sexual, asexual) and there is no way that homosexual intercourse is going lead to pregnancy, while PIV, despite considerable efforts to avoid such, can lead to pregnancy.
In other words, is sex a physical (PIV) or emotional act?
It can be cold, sterile and pedantic argument to some, and not so much to others.
You are aware, I hope, that sex can be physical without PIV?
Dear please goodness...
According to a narrow and literal definition it cannot.
I pointed that out, nothing more. There is no need to read anything into how I define sex or what I do during my sex life.
If I wanted you to know I would have said "I define sex thusly :________"
Ok, I see that you're trying to describe a definition that doesn't necessarily apply to your own sex life, but I still fail to see how, for example, oral sex would be considered emotional rather than physical simply because it's not PIV. What and whose concept of sex are you talking about? Even the most conservative groups I can think of consider things like oral sex to be physical, but I may be missing your point.
what I was trying to get at (keeping in mind that a narrow definition of sex=sexual reproduction*) is often there are a lot of emotions and sensations that go along with it (ideally passion, pleasure, satisfaction, etc).
A lot of those emotions are present in non-reproductive sex.
So, is sex a physical or emotional/sensational act?
If I receive oral sex there are a emotions and sensations that I would encounter that I would also if my dick went elsewhere... but in only one of those elsewhere is reproductive sex.
So if you think that sex is more than PIV then you have a broader definition and sex is more emotional physical than a simple physical act.
Or your definition of sex could be situational.
*I am always mindful that despite the efforts to separate out the reproductive aspect of PIV pleasure aspect thru the use of condoms, the pill, pulling out, etc PIV remains the number one way women get pregnant.
I want to shake women who ask what two women do in bed together. I usually respond with, "Well, what are all the things your boyfriend does to you that don't include his penis?" And even if it dawns on them that there are plenty of things for two women to do in bed together, they still think it isn't really sex, because there is no penis.
Fucking stupid ass word "foreplay." Needs to be booted off the face of the planet. All "foreplay" means to me is "what a man does to a woman so that she is ready to receive his penis," not what it REALLY is, which is "highly pleasurable sexual activities that can come at any point in the act." Do most heterosexual couples really not throw in some oral or manual stimulation between bouts of PIV sex? I don't get it. When I sleep with men, that's always the case.
I've definitely found that as soon as people find out that I've been with girls, they act as if my sex life is open for questions. Now, mind, this doesn't come after any sort of announcement regarding my sexual history, more along the lines of "yeah, my ex-girlfriend blah blah blah" being followed with "so how do lesbians do it?!"
I've never had people react the same way after I mention a boyfriend.
I think it goes beyond just the exoticisizing of lesbian sex and into this assumption that because I've had lesbian experiences, I'm kinky and open and also completely available to answer their questions. (Now, I am those things and I don't tend to mind- but that's not because I like ladies, dammit! And I do mind the ASSUMPTION.)
I gots a question that I needs to set up...
Women often times get together with their girlfriends and talk about everything in regards to relationships and sex...
Stuff that would be unacceptable for a guy to tell his friends (the girlfriend would take it as a violation of the privacy of their relationship) but when she does it it is 'girl talk' or some other euphemism.
(I've been there... "You told M and T what? Does that mean I can tell P and M? No? +grumble grumble double standard grumble+")
I am wondering... is what some of the lesbian and bisexual women are reporting here is the same phenomenon?*
*While keeping in mind many women have already talked shop when it comes to heterosexual relationships.
I have to say that I don't really see the double standard you're implying at work- that it's supposedly more ok for a woman to talk about sex with her girlfriends than the other way around. That's not to say that it doesn't happen - merely that I've never seen it in my own life.
HOWEVER, I do think it's valid to bring up the point of "girl talk", because that does happen. It isn't really what I, personally, was thinking of, but I didn't really clarify that. In my experience that sort of tell-all atmosphere comes from everyone in the conversation sharing all kinds of details.. the situations I've come across that irritate me are when in otherwise NON sexual conversation, a lesbian or bisexual happens to mention her orientation in a typically off-handed, not particularly sexual way (ie, a casual mention of an ex-girlfriend in a nonsexual context), and is then suddenly barraged with really personal questions that would NEVER be asked of a heterosexual in that context. And, an important detail I think, is that a lot of the time these questions come from men, and can have a somewhat lewd feeling to them.
Women talking a lot does not ring true for me and my friends when it comes to sex. In the context I described above with my then-friend, the conversation went more like this:
Me: I really like _____.
Bf: What's it like to have sex with her?
So my problem on reflection is that her curiosity about lesbian sex overrided her interest in other aspects of the relationship.
I see the potential catch-22 problem with women and young girls keen to educate themselves. If someone like Alma approached me with genuine questions which were not just out of a curious fascination (as was the case with bf), I would be happy to discuss lesbian lifestyle/sex/issues- or, if I felt uncomfortable, I would direct such a person to some of the internet sources that helped me out in the past.
In regards to the lack of exploration into the area of lesbians "spiritualising" lesbian sex, I feel I would have to do a lot more research before I could confidently get into that. I agree with Zp27 that people sometimes feel they have a mystical connection with their partners, It just becomes problematic if they assert that this can ONLY happen in the confines of a certain type of relationship, i.e. hetero, lesbian, etc...
Also, I would argue that I am not keen on "othering" myself, nor do I want others to "other" me, which is why I posted this in the first place.
Another problem is that I have been asked this question many, many times, and none of those people who asked were exploring their feelings; they were just plain curious. I would never ask someone what sex with a dude is like, just because the say " I like this guy" or "I have a boyfriend..."
Can you see where I'm coming from?
I hope this isn't seen as derailing, but over the course of commenting on this post I started wondering if gay men experience any of this?
I have absolutely NO evidence to back this up - pure conjecture, sweeping generalization - but I'm going to guess no, or at least less. I think 1) straight women wouldn't ask, because they already "know", and 2) straight men wouldn't ask because "omg teh gayz!"
I dunno, just pondering.
I would imagine, with no evidence and pure conjecture, that gay men would field a lot of questions about anal sex (how to, their preference for penetrative v. receptive anal sex and reciprocity).
I would also assume they get tired of it.
I feel like lesbians and bi women would have to field more questions, since lesbians aren't represented in the media and pop culture the same way gay men are.
I think curiosity about lesbian sex (from other straight women), often comes from the fact heterosexuals find it hard to picture a sexual encounter that doesn't follow the linear track of foreplay - penetration - orgasm - done. I think a lot of people secretly wonder - "What do lesbians actually do in bed?". Hence you get silly questions such as "Who gets to be the man?" or the assumption that you use strap-ons. I think a lot of straight women may still be unaware of the world of sex that exists outside penises.
I consider myself straight, but I had a sexual experience with a woman, and when I told close friends about it they were pretty interested in the technicalities. One (straight) girl asked "So what did you, y'know...do?". I replied "Everything that girls do." She responded (with some shock) "Even the whole, y'know, *oral* thing...?". It was like, well YEAH! We didn't just lie around stroking each other and looking at each other's amazing beauty...we wanted to get off! And we did...ah, fond memories.
Anyway, I wouldn't be too offended by curiosity - unless it's expressed in a particularly intrusive or disapproving way. It's pretty human to want to know what other people get up to, especially when it occurs in a circle you may not have any knowledge of.
"It was like, well YEAH! We didn't just lie around stroking each other and looking at each other's amazing beauty...we wanted to get off!"
Ha! Word. I get the feeling that a lot of the disbelief in lesbianism expressed by some straight women and some men comes from the fact that women in our culture are not supposed to have sex drives, so people can't imagine two women having passionate, aggressive sex with each other since there's no penis. And I think the oral sex thing squicks a lot of straight women out, not necessarily because they don't want to lick pussy themselves, but because it is not uncommon for women to be uncomfortable with ANYONE going down on them. Either way, the perception of all lesbian sex as this mystical appreciation of female beauty is bogus. This happens sometimes, but then again, have no heterosexuals ever cuddled and just enjoyed looking at and touching each others' bodies? Of course they have. Fuckin' a.
I am sorry that you have had a lot of unwanted questions that made you feel that way.
When I am asked those questions, I see it as a genuine curiosity in my life or in lesbianism. I agree it's off-putting if the asker is creepy or seems to have an ulterior motive. In those instances I decline to answer. But if it is asked by someone in an appropriate manner, I like to tell them because I remember being "bi-curious" for so many years wondering what it would be like. Also, I've had so many people show disapproval of my "lifestyle" that I welcome questions and an opportunity to talk about these things without being judged.
However they ought to ask bisexuals and lesbians who've had sexual experiences with men, in order for them to describe the difference.
The reason they may be more curious about the sex than the relationship might be because they've most likely had close friendships with women, so they've already experienced strong feelings of attachment and perhaps even love for another woman. The only thing they haven't tried is going on a date and being intimate.
For women who've identified as straight for most of their lives, it is a major difference being intimate with a woman - even the kissing feels extremely different from my perspective. In most cases, a woman's face and lips are simply softer, and they don't have rough stubble on their chins to scratch your face. For a tactile person, that could make the difference.
Of course, it is just my perspective. And I am still mulling over what you said and thinking that I will wonder the person's motives the next time I am asked.
Clarification:
"However they ought to ask bisexuals and lesbians who've had sexual experiences with men, in order for them to describe the difference."
I meant to say they should ask people who've had sex with both as opposed to asking someone who's only been with women. How would someone who's only been with women know how it compares to being with a man if she's never been with a man. That may be what's leading to some of the frustration.
I think it's more annoying to hear "what do you do?" because that depends on the couple as opposed to "how does it feel different from being with a guy?" because then I can mention anything from softer skin to less natural body hair to being easier to find someone my size to different smell to different pitched voices to more soft to cuddle with.
I, first off, send my heart out to you and am sorry that you feel objectified on a regular basis, especially being a lesbian. And I'm pretty certain that whenever you are with another woman in public you must feel like just a show for everyone to gawk at. I don't want to discredit your feelings in any way shape or form. I just want to make a note that I as a straight ally to many queer people could see a different point of view on this issue. I've asked some of my lesbian friends what it's like having sex with another woman for the pure reason that I have never had sex with another woman. I don't know what it's like. But, I ask it the same way I asked my hetero friends what sex with a man was like while I was a virgin. I know it is difficult dealing with the pressure of society and the hyper-sexualization of girls and especially lesbian relationships but not every person out there is following that mindset. Maybe they actually are curious? We don't grow up being told what lesbian sex even is, it's not mainstream and thus people (girls boys and everyone in between) may feel curious because they don't know. You may feel angry about being objectified and hypersexualized but realize that this isn't the case constantly. People are curious. Granted there are ignorant people that would plainly gawk at a lesbian couple or think that lesbian exist for their sole amusement. Please, don't think that every straight person that asks a question like that is ignorant or heterosexist. When it comes down to it, we don't know. We don't know what it's like to come out, or to have to deal with that pressure every time you meet someone new..having to come out to them too. We don't know what it's like to be in love with someone who doesn't love you back only because of your gender. I know I always tell my friends that if I ever offend or hurt them for them to tell me and maybe you need to put up that boundary with your friends. Good luck.
Much love and power.
I would not say that I feel objectified on a regular basis. I find day-to-day life as a lesbian pretty normal and easy going; none of my straight friends or family ever make me feel different, and all things considered I am pretty happy and privileged to be able to live as freely as I do. Because I am used to such a laid-back atmosphere, I find it strange when people focus on my sexuality, or act as if it is something strange and different. As I mentioned above, context is incredibly important when considering the implications of the question. I have no problems with heterosexual women attempting to explore lesbian lifestyle and practices, it is when it borders on fetizition that it becomes a problem for me (not that it's a problem more widely - for example, I wouldn't find it problematic for heterosexual women to get off on lesbian porn- although I feel uncomfortable at the thought of men getting off on it-I think that's a different kettle of fish...hmmn); I just don't want my sexual preference to be something which is inherently "sexy" to others.
Thank you for your input, this whole thread has been incredibly helpful to me in understanding different perspectives on the issue.