In a discussion below, the issue of the definition of consent came up. I'm now curious not specifically about the definition, but about who is allowed to decide that definition for each perseon. We obviously have the law to decide what consent means for people who are underage, so let's just talk about people who are eighteen and older (or possibly adults looking back on things that happened when they were younger than eighteen -- I'm not talking pedophilia, but let's say someone looking back on sleeping with a 20yo when they were 16).
I notice that, if a woman is very uncomfortable with a sexual situation that happened to her, she's generally trusted in feminist circles to tell people that she did not consent. However, if a woman claims she consented and enjoyed it and knew all the facts and so on, she is not necessarilly believed when she asserts the existence of her consent.
In short, my question is, if someone who is psychologically well except in the sense that they engaged in sex you find distasteful, are you reasonable in claiming that person didn't consent?
Does a power imbalance (age, or boss and employee, or professor and student) mean a woman is deluded if she says she consented?
I realize there are issues of loving or protecting one's abuser -- but is that was these cases always are? In order to be totally open, I must admit that I do have a personal interest in this. I'm a nineteen-year-old with someone in his thirties. It makes me feel a very difficult to describe mix of furious and degraded when people who know nothing of my situation say that situations like mine are necessarily abusive or sick despite all other signs of goodness or health that they might display.
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My issue with consent in power relationships (especially when it comes to legislation) is to err on the side of the person who can be taken advantage of.
Can an employee fall in love with hir boss and enter into a sexual relationship with hir willingly and with full consent? Sure.
However, women (and some men) throughout the years have been coerced into sexual relationships with those who have power over them. The problem is trying to tease out how true consent with authority looks different than coerced consent in the moment.
To me, it doesn't. The solution is rules that prohibit sexual contact between those who MIGHT be in a power imbalance until that power imbalance is resolved. In love with your boss? Transfer to a different section. In love with a student? Wait until the class is over. In love with a minor? Have the adult experience and maturity to maintain the relationship without sex until the minor becomes an adult.
Waiting sucks. But if it's not just about the sex and the coercive power one of the couple can have, then most of the issues of perceived coercion go away with a little bit of tweaking of the environment or with time.
I think those are good points. Thank you.
I like this answer.
I find this paragraph of yours very frustrating to say the least:
"I notice that, if a woman is very uncomfortable with a sexual situation that happened to her, she's generally trusted in feminist circles to tell people that she did not consent. However, if a woman claims she consented and enjoyed it and knew all the facts and so on, she is not necessarilly believed when she asserts the existence of her consent."
I'm aware that you're fairly new to Feministing and you did recently have a very heated discussion about this topic with someone on the community boards, but that has led to you post a very very broad generalization that I do not find appropriate. I have been frequenting this site for about two years now and you just can't generalize this type of thing. Each poster on here is different and thinks differently about these subjects. All feminists are definitely not all alike.
I also think that in that comment thread to which you're referring you and the other commenter (I forget their name) were not completely on the same page. I think the other commenter was referring more to people in power positions and you were talking more about just the age differences. Honestly, the conversation got so heated I could no longer keep track of what either of your points were.
That being said I agree with Ellestar's comment.
You're right -- I shouldn't have generalized. I apologize for that.
I really don't think that paragraph makes an unfair generalization. She said women are "not necessarily" believed, not that they never are. I haven't read the thread in question, but I have seen quite a few where that type of judgement can happen. Any conversation involving BDSM or rape fantasies, for example.
For the record in terms of social power imbalances, I would tend to agree with Ellestar. But I certainly have seem distaste for people's sexual choices used to question their consent in feminist circle much more often than I would like.
Like I said, I have been reading this site for a long time, and just when you think you've found that one reaction is "normal" it changes. I have read those posts where it seems like tons of people are judging those that practice BDSM or something. So then if someone just comes to this site that one day they will assume that feminists all think like this. But then someone from those comments will get upset about it and make a community post and then they will find that they have this overflowing of support that they didn't know about before. This is a constant theme I've noticed here. Why? Because we're all different.
I'll try to work out some of my thoughts here.
Firstly, I have two questions for you:
--How do you define pedophilia?
--What do you mean by 'psychologically well'?
Now, nineteen and 'thirties', I think, is not necessarily bad. I just turned 20, and I went on a few dates with a guy who was 34. I think whether or not it's 'bad' depends on how you meet, how mature you are, where you are in your lives, and, of course, the nature of the relationship itself. If all of the answers to the previous questions are 'wrong,' well it's not for me to tell you what to feel... but I would consider, at least, how your actions may affect others.
For example, if you (as an underaged teenager) consent to sex with your teacher, and your peers find out, it creates a lot of tension-- is he favoring you? Should they sleep with him so they can be favored too? And suppose you ARE the rare 15-year-old who totally can handle a sexual relationship with a 40-year-old man. In his mind, if you don't see it as abuse, then he may be more likely to have sex with other 15-year-olds in the future, 15-year-olds with whom it WOULD be abuse. I know we aren't responsible for other people's actions, especially if that person is an abuser... but, I dunno, it just seems like something to think about.
And, for the record, it would most certainly be abuse with the vast majority of 15-year-olds (I want to say 'all', but I'll refrain), because of their psycho-sexual development.
Now, in the interest of full disclosure: I kind of was that 15-year-old. I was the hypothetical girl Chris Hanson is trying to protect with his bullshit show-- whenever anyone asks what teen would go looking for abuse online, the answer is someone like me. I slept with half a dozen men old enough to be my father before I turned 17, and it was highly traumatic. I still have flashbacks-- I hated those men. They were predators; they were pedophiles (and I'm sure they still are). And so why did I do it? Something called 'traumatic re-enactment syndrome,' to the best of my knowledge. Which might have something to do with a verbally and phsyically abusive father, but mostly has to do with two certain teachers who are seemingly incapable of not sexually harassing barely-pubescent girls. (Is this why I am unconditionally against relationships with teachers? Because I've experienced how terrifying it can be to have teachers try to be sexual with you? Probably, and I think it's a totally fair reason.)
So am I one of those psychologically unwell people you were talking about? Should my ability to consent have been taken away entirely? I don't think so. Because when I did have age appropriate relationships, it was never traumatic. Even some questionably-appropriate relationships-- when I was 17, I dated a guy who was 23-- were not traumatic. So, speaking entirely out of personal experience, I'm in favor of over/under laws: one year under 18 with 4 years over is legal, two years under 18 with two years over is legal... something like that.
Oi. Sorry for the rambling psychotherapy session I just had all over this thread.
Firstly, I have two questions for you:
--How do you define pedophilia?
I generally define it by the clinical definition, which means attraction to pre-pubescent children. However, I realize that that answer isn't always right. Puberty is happening earlier and earlier. In the case of my usage above, I meant it as a disclaimer in case someone thought I meant that, say, a nine-year-old could consent. I wanted people to know I did NOT mean that sort of thing, and that I was talking about mid-late teens.
--What do you mean by 'psychologically well'?
Someone who isn't obviously compromised by coercion, severe depression to the point where it's obvious that they can't make proper decisions, etc.
And thank you for sharing your story. It was really a mistake for me to just jump at you in such a militant way in that earlier argument we had. You and I both have personal stakes in this argument, and I should have been aware enough to realize that might be the case.
I apologize too. I was definitely out-of-line a few times, and I think it was misplaced anger. I have to deal with that better.
My response is colored definitely by the fact that when I was 18 I "dated" two men who were both pretty much 30. Boys my own age did not interest me, and I thought that older men would relate to me in a much more positive way.
Wow, was I ever wrong.
The older men did not at all relate to me in a positive way. Instead, they were extremely controlling and ignored me whenever I did not consent. I ended up a mess emotionally and once I was finally able to admit to myself that "hey, this effing sucks," I forced myself to take a year off from dating to remember how to stick up for myself and how I wanted to be treated.
Now, it may not be the same for you or any other teen girl who has found someone older. Your relationship may be filled with respect. You may be the one calling all the shots. You may be the most empowered person you know. And that would be wonderful.
However, relationships with such an age discrepancy really do need to be examined in depth for power discrepancies as well. Is the relationship equal, or is there a manipulative element in it? For example, whenever the younger commits some kind of infraction, is the younger told they need to grow up or this relationship won't work out? Does the older spend quite a bit of time in a locale that the younger can't go (i.e. a bar)? How do the public vs the private interactions go?
And a question that may seem unfair, but that is indeed valid: why is the older in a relationship with someone so much younger, rather than someone closer to their own age?
Do I assume that every relationship with an age or social power discrepancy is inherently flawed or non-consensual? No, but I ceased being able to take for granted that such a relationship is a healthy one without closer examination.
At the same time, I recognize that not all relationships between people who are similar in age or social power are healthy, and do my best to ask questions when I notice power discrepancies within an outwardly equal relationship.
Am I saying that you cannot have consented and are in an unhealthy relationship? No.
What I'm saying is to continue to reflect upon how your S.O. treats you, what you're getting out of the relationship, and be aware of manipulation.
Also, don't allow yourself to get trapped by feeling that you have something to prove. It can be a seductive trap, and one that I myself fell into.
Good luck.
I think happyhappygirl brings up some very good points here. I think it is important to be really reflective about the relationships we enter into especially if there is a possibility of a power inbalance involved. We need to analyze what is going on and see if this is really what we are wanting or why we are choosing this. I think that when these ideas are brought up to the woman this can sometimes come across as accussatory (like as the OP was saying that we wouldn't believe she consented). And sometimes it is presented that way and I think that's wrong. We shouldn't just be calling the woman a liar or saying she doesn't know what consent is, but we should be urging ourselves for further analysis. Just like we do with everything else. That's why many feminists have a problem with the whole "I choose my choice!" type of feminism. You can't just get away with saying, well this is my choice so leave me alone. You need to look into why this is your choice. Do you understand everything going on around you that might have led to that choice or decision? You can still have that choice but just be better informed about it.
I don't know if I'm explaining myself well AT ALL. It's getting towards the end of the work day and I haven't had lunch and all these thoughts are racing in my head. Ugh. All I'm saying is that no one should be judging others and calling others liars here. But we should encourage reflection and analysis when it comes to the decisions we make.
You can't just get away with saying, well this is my choice so leave me alone. You need to look into why this is your choice. Do you understand everything going on around you that might have led to that choice or decision? You can still have that choice but just be better informed about it.
You're so right, but there was an interesting community post recently that I think is relevant here. It was about how people with weird kinks are always being told to reflect on why they have their kinks, but so-called vanilla folks aren't necessarily told to reflect as well even though they also should.
I think it would be impossible for me (not saying everyone, but just crazy-introspective me) not to have thought about why I have the attractions I have. I've thought about daddy issues, past inappropriate sexual behavior toward me during my most formative years, rebellion, and so on. All of those things were a little bit a part of it. Other notable parts of it are that I genuinely intellectually click better with most older men. A HUGE part of it is that I've had a hard-ish life, and older people are more likely to relate to that and understand. Part of it is that older men (whether realistically or not) make me feel protected.
But once I'm in a relationship with someone for any length of time, it ceases to be about the age. The age is attractive in that first, shallow phase, but it becomes as unimportant (aside from little kinky jokes I might make) once love is there. Then it's about my admiration of the person's... essence? Soul? Dunno.
But anyway, I've thought about it a lot.
"but so-called vanilla folks aren't necessarily told to reflect as well even though they also should."
Oh I totally agree with that. I think everyone needs to engage in this sort of reflection and analysis about the types of people they're attracted to, the kinds of things they generally like or are turned on by, the choices they make in life, etc... My parents are both psychologists so I believe that this is necessary and helpful no matter what, be your tastes "kinky" or "vanilla." As feminists we always talk about this when it comes to weddings and child-rearing and careers so why not everything else as well? We need to stay aware of all these things.
I really like this response. It's given me a lot to think about. It's also made me wonder why I've been so lucky in this area. The older men I've dated have been perfectly good to me.
I agree that relationships with age differences (like any relationship, really) need to be examined for possible problems related to the age difference. Some older men will end up with a younger woman because they just happen to click, and some will end up with a younger women because they are controlling and therefore only date people with little experience. It's not always obvious what a person's intentions are from the beginning.
There are other issues that I notice almost never get addressed, primarily because they necessarily come after the initial "It's a bad idea" stage at which most people stop analyzing it. Issues such as, for instance, the fact that, if I stay with my partner for the long haul, it's extremely likely that I'm going to end up his caretaker for a number of years someday. That's the sort of thing that seems very far-off and unimportant at the beginning of a fun relationship.
Also, don't allow yourself to get trapped by feeling that you have something to prove. It can be a seductive trap, and one that I myself fell into.
Thanks. I will keep that in mind in case it ever creeps into my ideas about my relationship.
Ther eis nothing reasonable about discounting a person's sexual preference and style (so long as everything was legal all are adults etc etc). If a woman had anal and oral sex with 100 men in 2 hours I can believe she consented if she said so. Some women are just into that kind of thing and its quite possible that same woman could have not consented to vaginal sex with 1 man.
Her body her life.