Crossposted to my blog.
An observation on what ensues in every single feminist argument about porn:
Anti-porn Feminist: "I'm anti-porn because my boyfriend/ex-boyfriend/male friend watched a lot of porn and he did a horrible thing to me because of it!"At which point I have to wonder when feminism became all about letting men off the hook for being assholes.
A decent human being of normal intelligence can watch lots and lots of porn, and, upon finally discovering that actual sex is not entirely the same thing, can accept that without being a dick. A decent human of normal intelligence can watch hentai rape porn without thinking that women mean yes when they say no. A decent human of normal intelligence isn't going to go around copying everything he sees on TV.
And I'm sorry, but the problem isn't porn. The problem is your asshole boyfriend.
I'm sorry, he's not a "nice normal guy" who just happened to get afflicted with TEH PORNZ. He's an asshole who just happens to watch porn. And he'd still be an asshole if we lived in a sad, boring society without porn.
Let's try putting the blame on the asshole rather than the naked chick.
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First let me say that I do take your point which I understand to mean that porn (just like TV and video games) don't make people do things and definitely don't absolve people of responsibility for their actions.
But, let me also say that the anti-porn stance has more to do with the industries treatment and objectification of women than the actions of the consumers. For instance, if a women is given drugs or alcohol so she will be less likely to refuse to do something that is a bad situation.
I also want to say that I am not against porn but I am against a system that preys on women in difficult situations, financial, emotional, etc. I am also against a system that doesn't protect women. IT SHOULD BE STANDARD TO USE A CONDOM IN PORN! It is dangerous and wrong not to.
I am anti-porn*. And it is not because I am was hurt by someone who used porn. That is gross over simplification and quite insulting. And I do not blame the actors or actresses in porn films; I blame an industry that is rife with sexism and misogyny. I dislike the way our culture has become pornified and I see this as leading to climate where women's bodies are even more of public property than they are already. Your summation of anti-porn feminists is very insulting and simplified. Please do some research on the actual position of anti-porn feminists before making blanket statements about their beliefs.
*I am using the Dworkin and MacKinnon definition of pornography. See: http://www.uoregon.edu/~novkov/outjur/porndef.htm for more.
Question regarding D&M definition...
Women are presented as sexual objects for domination, conquest, violation, exploitation, possession, or use, through postures or positions of servility or submission or display.
What positions get through that filter?
Especially after addressing Dworkin's other works, like Intercourse
A quote from Wikipedia*:
The thrusting is persistent invasion. She is opened up, split down the center. She is occupied--physically, internally, in her privacy. ... There is no analogue anywhere among subordinated groups of people to this experience of being made for intercourse: for penetration, entry, occupation. There is no analogue in occupied countries or in dominated races or in imprisoned dissidents or in colonialized cultures or in the submission of children to adults or in the atrocities that have marked the twentieth century ranging from Auschwitz to the Gulag.
I has reads the whole thing, but copying and pasting is more convenient than finding another, lesser known quote.
Are you looking for a list? Because I don't have one. I think that this is a like the definition of obscenity: I'd know it if I saw it. Of course, since I do not watch porn, I will avoid seeing it. Sorry I can't be of more help.
I do not agree with the quote from Dworkin you posted; nor to do I advocate censoring pornography. But I do not embrace it and see it as inherently anti-feminist.
Joan
So...that's the ONLY justification ANY anti-porn feminist has EVER had? Wow. You must have had a grand total of, like, one conversation with an anti-porn feminist.
At which point I have to wonder when feminism became all about letting men off the hook for being assholes.
At this point, I have to wonder when you got to define what your feminist opponents "really believe".
For the record: I am against most porn, not all, but mainstream porn in particular, not because my boyfriends watch porn - they do, and I have no real issue with it - but because mainstream porn takes place within a context of reinforcing the idea of woman-as-object-for-male-gratification, rather than celebrating women's agency and sexuality for itself. Some feminist-made porn I like, but it's harder to find.
You are putting words into Nattles_Thing mouth.
It is my experience that she is correct, eventually on a discussion board about pornography women will argue against pornography just as the way Nattles described.
She was confronting that specific argument, not rejecting all others.
Um, seriously? Let's look at how she begins her post: An observation on what ensues in every single feminist argument about porn: ... Anti-porn Feminist: "I'm anti-porn because
Go ahead, tell me that she's not insisting that it happens EVERY TIME, that she's not representing anti-porn feminists as monolithic and single-tracked, that she leaves room for other arguments. Sure as fuck doesn't sound that way to me. Sounds more like she's saying that's the only way it happens.
And you know, your anecdotal experience of women arguing porn on those grounds? You fail to specify it's feminist women who are saying these things, and in fact in my experience it's extremely unlikely that a feminist will offer such a weak rationalization on its own. She may use anecdotal evidence, much like you yourself have done here, that her male companion exhibited certain behaviors as a result of porn, but that's only part of the argument. At least, that's the kind of feminist arguments I've had about porn. Which is just as valid as your experience, yes?
Has a read:
http://community.feministing.com/2009/02/porn.html
You don't goes far untils you see whats Nattles_Thing and I are referring too.
As a side note, I use to be meticulous in citing my claims, but since they were always disregarded I usually save my self the time.
Just because something is said in every feminist argument does not mean that every anti-porn feminist makes that argument... just at least one anti-porn feminist makes the argument.
And then that anti-porn feminist says (in Nattles words) "I'm anti-porn because my boyfriend/ex-boyfriend/male friend watched a lot of porn and he did a horrible thing to me because of it!"
Cheers!
I am not in any way implying that this is the only argument against porn. It's just an argument I've seen used again and again -- Steven links to an example upthread -- and I think it's a terrible one that takes the blame away from where it belongs.
I will concede that there are reasons an asshole might like porn -- instant gratification, no interaction with actual women -- but I don't think that porn makes people craves those things more than they would anyway.
(Ironically, the reason I haven't been able to comment in this thread before now is because I was busy doing porn on Long Island. Boring as shit, but my co-star was cute and I made a lot of money.)
I'm sorry. This was meant to be a general answer to everyone, not to you. (But thank you for getting the point.)
No problem... its not like you broadsided me or anything...
If I recall, we have not always agreed in every discussion but they have been good conversations; and I do hate it when people put words in other peoples mouths.
I suspect that for the vast majority of people, assholery based on a specific prejudice or belief is something that is learned from an early age and then it is reinforced and reaffirmed over and over again throughout life.
In very few cases does this process have anything to do with intellect. And decency, unfortunately, is relative. The question then becomes, are the things in our culture---since we know that prejudice-based assholery is learned---that reinforce or reaffirm beliefs fair game for criticism?
Let's try putting the blame on the asshole rather than the naked chick.
Is this in reference to shaming people who work in porn? I agree that shaming is wrong, but is it never OK to hold people accountable for their choices when appropriate? For example, there are some independent women who produce their own stuff---material that many people feel is hateful and regressive. Why isn't she accountable?---just as some comedian on stage with a sexist and racist sketch would be held accountable for his or her materials by some folks.
I have heard of cases where people replicate the things they have seen in porn, maybe they're not common, but they exist. Something tells me that in these cases, they would not have thought about that particular behavior on their own, that they were directly influenced by porn, which is not to say that porn made them do it, only that porn gave them that specific idea. Perhaps when SOME people claim that their boyfriend/ex-boyfriend/male friend did something bad because of porn, this is what they mean.
Porn may not directly make people do bad things, but a lot of the mainstream stuff contributes to attitudes and ideas that make such bad attitudes/actions acceptable to people, whether they act on them or not. Accepting these beliefs/behaviors as okay may not be as bad as acting them out, but it certainly doesn't help.
I'm so glad other people take issue with this post. The OP is absolutely wrong when ze says "I'm sorry, he's not a "nice normal guy" who just happened to get afflicted with TEH PORNZ. He's an asshole who just happens to watch porn. And he'd still be an asshole if we lived in a sad, boring society without porn."
The problem may be an jerky guy, but it is definitely ALSO porn.
OP: please read Getting Off: the end to pornography and masculinity (its an easy read.) Pornography DOES have everything to do with how we are socialized to have and view sex.
What explains the sad state of affairs of men and women sexual relations before pornography?
I would posit it would be asshole-ery. A cold indifferance to a persons autonomy and desires that predates 'mainstream' porn or whatever you want to call it.
patriarchy. so yes, widespread, systemic assholery.
(and there has always been porn. it just hasn't always been mysogynistic)
Can you define what makes porn misogynistic?
I don't know why everyone cites this book. I think it takes a very narrow view of gender.
Sex and violence are two of the most basic human drives, and they've been intertwined for most of our history on this earth. Hell, look at the way a lot of animals mate.
Humans have developed a sense of empathy and a culture that mostly condemns sexual violence, and it's certainly a whole lot less acceptable to rape someone than it was 100 years ago when porn wasn't as widely available. There's also been some proof that internet porn reduces rape.
The urges some people blame on porn have been around for a very long time, and they're not going anywhere. Porn may cater to those urges, but it doesn't create them.
Sex and violence are two of the most basic human drives, and they've been intertwined for most of our history on this earth. Hell, look at the way a lot of animals mate.
Hey, don't bring animals or early people in this, lol! If you suggest that somewhere in the recesses of our minds we are drawn to the perils of mating from our history on earth, then I would expect mainstream porn to be rife with the male-on-male (hetero) violence and sexual violence against men as a theme as well.
And speaking of accountability---for those presenting evidence that porn reduces rates of sexual violence, then that data should bolster the call for greater social accountability from men in general, since the theory is that certain men (and we can't be sure which ones) use porn as a substitute for rape.
But we don't really see that, do we? We still have a society of slut shaming, victim blaming and a refusal to implement wide-scale outreach toward men's role in reducing sexual violence, while accepting and promoting the consumption of sexually violent themes as a form of art and entertainment.
So please consider that so much of the conflict (even when view points might seem simplistic) about porn here is in response to a specific real-life context of our lives and culture.
Unfortunately, porn preventing rape doesn't necessarily lead to the end of all sex-related sexist bullshit. Although, that would be really nice.
The fact that some pornography depicts violent sex is not proof against it. There are lots of people who enjoy violent, degrading sex and practice it safely and respectfully. You don't get to decide what kinds of sex are "safe" to go on film and what kinds aren't.
You don't get to decide what kinds of sex are "safe" to go on film and what kinds aren't.
So true. But if we're talking about accountability, I sure as hell do get to decide what's safe for my own sanity and well being in my personal life. And if this factors into a general anti-porn (mainstream) stance, I don't see where this translates into "letting men off the hook for being assholes". Frankly, I see a lot more of that within the porn and sex industries. But that's a whole other conversation.
Of course you get to decide what's safe for your sanity and personal life. No one is debating that. If you don't want to have violent sex or watch porn, you shouldn't have to and no one should make you.
Of course, you also don't have the right to decide what other people can do and watch.
I don't see how accountability factors into this. Can you clarify?
Hi Nattles, sorry for the length:
I don't see how accountability factors into this. Can you clarify?
I just think that calls for accountability here are misplaced.
As others have brought up, it seems like you're asking women to hold their partners accountable yet to ignore an industry (apparently also full of assholes) that by many measures isn't held accountable either (threatening to skip town or country is new safety laws are implemented for example).
Then later you bring up the theory that porn reduces rates of sexual violence. If true means that for some, porn is used as a substitute for aggression. So this sort of takes away from your idea that lack of "intelligence" and "decency" are the principal drivers of assholery; instead it's whether or not certain men have sexual and violent outlets--according to the theory. Of course this is totally inconsistent with mainstream thinking on accountability that seeks to blame women at every turn for their own victimization.
It also begs the question, as to what happens when the outlet is no longer enough---as I'm sure people try to push the limits on boundaries in their own relationships, etc.---which is what I think may happen to some woman who've said they've had bad experiences with this stuff.
Lastly, careful attention to language reveals an idea that without active, positive input little boys grow up to be disrespectful. I have no idea if this is valid or purely sexist, but ever hear, "I've raised my little girls to grow up to treat men well"? I haven't but I've sure heard the reverse quite a bit.
Thus, nobody is suggesting that a man just wakes up one day, pops in a DVD and then becomes a jerk. But I think that it's interesting that we have this sort of collective understanding of the power of culture and the need for some counteracting influences at least during youth, yet on the other hand there is a strong resistance to cultural criticism (which includes media) and a broader social accountability.
I don't think porn is the sole factor in creating rape culture, but I do think it is absolutely a factor. And in terms of rape being more or less acceptable-- violent stranger rape certainly is less acceptable, but the notion that men own/are entitled to women's bodies is alive and well. And I think a lot of people would agree that though it is less acceptable to "rape" someone, we get around that by simply victim-blaming and not calling it rape. In this way, rape continues to be an accepted part of our culture.
I find your refusal to acknowledge any effect of porn on our psyche frustrating and quite frankly, ridiculous.
I'm sure porn affects our psyches -- then again, so does just about everything. (People always point out that a lot of porn sex is violent and degrading. They get their idea of normal -- read: romantic -- sex from romance novels and movies.)
What I really, really disagree with is the idea that a "nice, normal guy" will become a douchebag rapist because he watches porn, or that porn alone will make men incapable of empathizing with women.
I've gotta ask - what kind of feminist, pro porn or otherwise, thinks it is acceptable to defend something, in this case porn, by appealing to lazy generalizations which are actually insulting to women?
Women are only against porn because it makes their boyfriends mean to them? Wow. How about the industry itself? How about its exploitation of women? Human trafficking? Reinforcement of sexist, heterosexist and racist norms? How about the child exploitation? Maybe some anti porn feminists have issues with these things.
I guess it's not possible that women are against things for non emotional reasons, right. In fact, I agree - women are just jealous of porn stars because we are insecure and hysterical. Well, I don't have a boyfriend so I guess I'm against porn because I'm lonely and insecure (does my bum look big in this? Quick, get me another chocolate bar).
Here's a crazy thought: anti porn feminists have a range of arguments against porn, in the same way that pro porn feminists have a range of arguments to defend it. Some arguments are good, some are bad, some are advocated well, some are bungled but seriously if you want to actually initiate a conversation with people who are other feminists with differing views, maybe you could do it with a tiny bit of respect, both for their reasoning and their position.
We are not hysterical, immature and illogical. This is not about being jealous or insecure over an ex boyfriend and frankly, it's an incredibly insulting attempt to undermine a whole group of people who you don't even know. There are serious concerns about the effects of porn on women, as an industry and as a product. Most feminists recognize this and respond in different ways. There are WOC and other porn stars who have created alternative porn companies with ethical and respectful working conditions. They were reacting to what they considered to be real issues with the industry in which they were working. Were they just on their periods, or do you allow women who agree with you to be rational?
Even your characterization of this particular argument is completely distorted. There is a legitimate debate about what affects porn can have on both men and women's perceptions and values. There's no evidence in your post, there's no argument either. Sorry to break it to you but you're hardly making pro porn feminists look good here either.
Maybe you should retitle your post 'unsupported and insulting generalizations'.
Jesus Christ. For the last time, I'm not generalizing. This is not by any means the sole reason anti-porn feminists hate porn. But I have seen it brought up again and again and I felt it needed to be addressed.
There's some anti-porn logic I think is valid and does need to be thought about. Working conditions, condom use and testing, for example. I tend to think that the solution is to fix the porn industry rather than write it all off as horrible, but I can understand why someone might go the other way.
"Some guy did XYZ douchebag thing to me because he watched too much porn!" isn't a good reason to be anti-porn. It lets the douchebag off the hook.
Just looked at your blog and I can see that you are a sex worker and clearly feel that you are not heard. But it's also clear that you think the rest of us women are slightly stupider (maybe jealous?) and don't get it - we want you to be a victim, our issues are emotional?
That's fine for you to take that stance, though I disagree. But it's pretty disingenous to claim that about every anti porn feminist ever.
I'm NOT claiming that about every anti-porn feminist. I said specifically that this is something that comes up very frequently in feminist arguments about porn.
I don't think other women are stupid or jealous, and I'm not sure where you're getting that.
While I understand the reactions to nattles_thing's post, it doesn't seem to me to be directed as a broad generalization of all anti-porn feminists, but something that arises in every anti-porn argument. Another example is the "Why Porn is Harmful to Men" post a week ago or so.
http://community.feministing.com/2009/07/why-pornography-hurts-men-repo.html#comments
To nattles: I understand that you weren't trying to generalize about all anti-porn feminists, but rather you were taking issue with a specific argument that a minority of anti-porn feminists use. However, I can clearly see why people would think you were making generalizations, because the phrases "ensues in every single feminist argument about porn" and "when feminism became all about letting men off the hook for being assholes" are very broad claims. Perhaps a more careful choice of words would lead to less backlash?
I agree with your general argument however. I also get really annoyed whenever this argument is used (and it's used fairly frequently on feministing), because it excuses disrespectful, abusive behavior. Mature, responsible men and women should be able to watch porn and still be smart enough to realize that porn is not reality and that everyone has different tastes and boundaries when it comes to sex. Similarly, I remember having a discussion on BDSM where another poster was arguing with me and basically said that BDSM is immoral because she had a disrespectful, controlling boyfriend who liked BDSM. These types of arguments really don't carry much weight. However, I do agree with other posters above that there are many legitimate concerns about porn that need to be addressed.
Some of it could be that it's an asshole boyfriend and other times it could just be that the pornography has given them a wrong idea of what is pleasurable to a woman and what is not, especially drawn porngraphy like hentai. Where anything in drawn/fantasy is possible and in real life it can be painful and damaging.
If a guy does something weird/unusual/not satisfying in bed that he learned from porn and doesn't listen that you do not like, then yes I can agree that he is a jerk.