This is my very first post on Feministing, and I'm very excited. I've been reading Feministing for about a year now, and it's one of the few websites I check every single day.
Anyways, I am 17 years old and going to college in the fall. My aunt who lives in another state from me wanted me to come visit her, so I'm here. I've been here for about two weeks now, andmy flight home is in a couple of days.
This aunt of mine has always been known as the "fashion-forward" one of the family. She's a hairstylist, so she apparently always knows what's in style or whatever. Pretty much all she thinks about is clothes and shoes and hair and make-up. I literally do not think she has any other worries in the world.
Now, I've never been much of a make-up person. I've worn make-up maybe four times in my entire life. It just feels foreign on my face, and I prefer to go without it. It used to be a matter of principle. Make-up is fake, and I'm generally against fake things, but now, it's the make-up itself. It feels annoying and weird on my face.
Last week, I went to a wedding with my aunt, and she decided to do my make-up. I decided to just bear with her, but she put tons of make-up on my face. I couldn't even recognize myself. It was absolutely terrible. And since then, she's constantly been telling me that I need to learn how to do my make-up because it's necessary, etc. I also wear glasses, and she's been telling me to get contacts this entire time too. I don't want to get contacts. I like my glasses. They're not a nuisance for me. In fact, they're quite convenient. And people with glasses can look attractive too. And even if I don't look attractive at all with my glasses, why does it matter? I don't want people to focus on whether or not I look attractive, I want them to focus on what I have to say or my personality or whatever. It's become so annoying being around my aunt when she says stuff like that because it's all the wrong ideals. She keeps telling me she's only saying it for my benefit, but is it really my benefit? Telling me make-up is necessary, and I need to change myself? That's for my benefit?
I really don't think so, and I'm so glad my own mother is not like this in the least bit.
Also, since she is a hairstylist, she has a magazine for all of these shampoos, etc. One of the shampoo brands, BedHead, has some weird names for shampoos. Three of their shampoos are called Control Freak, Dumb Blonde, and Self-Absorbed. I really think their advertising strategy is annoying. Making people feel bad about themselves? My aunt has the Dumb Blonde shampoo, and the first time I saw it in the bathroom, I wasn't sure what to think. Why would you own a shampoo that makes you feel bad about yourself or insults you?
Anyways, I just needed to get all of this out, and I also finally figured I should post something on Feministing. I'd definitely like to hear what you all think.
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I wish I was as good a feminist as you are when I was 17. As a guy, I never had to deal with these particular issues (except the glasses thing, and I did eventually get LASIK). I agree with everything you said-- I also note that it's hardly a necessity for women to learn to wear makeup. I am a lawyer, and I work with many female lawyers. Some wear makeup every day. Others never do, even when they're going to court. It's just not that a big a deal, if you seek out employers that aren't mired in traditional b.s. My friends in other professions indicate the same thing. Hang in there!
Congrats on heading to college and resisting the influence of well-meaning relatives. I look forward to reading more from you.
I am with you on the glasses thing- why do people seem to assume that every girl with glasses wants contacts? Since, in our culture, glasses are often a symbol of being a 'nerd' or just smart, I have concluded that sometimes this is a way of saying to girls 'put away your 'smart glasses' and focus on looking pretty.' This may not always be true, but that is how the pressure to dump the glasses feels to me somedays. Thankfully, I get less of that pressure now that I am in college.
Joan
I have above average vision. Coincidentally, I'd kill for glasses. Not so much from a vision standpoint, but I love the way they look!
(And don't try to tell me you can wear prescriptionless ones without looking like a total jerk)
I sooooo relate! I was so happy to have this very minor vision problem, I immediately ran to an optician (is that Engelish, btw?).
I now own severeral sets of glasses and I love them.
I wish you strength during the wait :))
Jannat, congratulations on going to college, I hope you'll love it there. I really second Julie's comment. She put it so much better then I could. I'm rooting for you...
heh. I think opposite of you: I find BedHead's marketing strategy humorous. But I look at it in a satirical way...I look at most things that way.
Your aunt does sound nerve-wracking. At least you're going home soon. =( Some people just believe certain things. To force it on others is annoying, but everyone has their own opinions.
You're happy with yourself, and that's all that matters.
I can kind of see where she's coming from on the "needing to learn to do it" front. Not that I agree, but to be honest, the world does run a bit more smoothly for women who choose to try to fit the patriarchal Beauty Standard(tm). It's been proven time and again in studies that there is such a thing as pro-beauty prejudice, and since part of our cultural definition of "beauty" does tend to involve the use of makeup to better fit the Beauty Standard(tm)... To me, it's a question of expediency versus principles. I tend to wear makeup in conscious violation of my principles because I know it will make my life a bit easier in general. But that's a personal choice I make, and I certainly don't fault you for choosing otherwise.
Anyway, I think that's why she thinks she's encouraging makeup use "for your benefit." Same goes for the glasses versus contacts thing. The closer you fit the Beauty Standard(tm), the more social acceptance you receive, the easier your life is. So while it's an antifeminist point of view, there is an internally consistent logic to it.
I agree.
Your aunt sounds really annoying, but she probably cares about you in the long run.
But, I have to add, just because she's probably doing it with good intentions and just because life might go more smoothly for you if you wear makeup DOESN'T mean you have to agree with her and go along with it. If you don't feel comfortable with makeup, which you clearly don't, then continue showing the world that it's unnecessary.
(P.S. I wear glasses and never wear makeup, and I'm fat, to boot. I'm nearly done with my PhD, married, have friends, successful and happy.)
Sorry to hear your aunt is being annoying. It's really rude for her to keep making comments on your appearance. Have you said anything firmly yet gently that you are not interested in makeup, so could she please let it go? Sometimes you just have to be upfront to people. You could also just go the "stupid and cheerful" route and just laugh every time she makes a suggestion along the lines of "oh, aren't you funny", and just forget about it. After all, this is her calling.
As a female lawyer, I would also support the idea that you at least get some tips from her. Not because you need them/should use them now, but it is a good tool to have as a professional. When I was in law school, a fellow female student attended a "professional impression" type conference paid for by the firm she was summering at. They basically told her she needed to start wearing some makeup because she looked young and unprofessional (she never wore any). So what i'm saying is you might as well acquire the *skill* now, and then should you ever want to conform to the beauty standard because you are in a stuffy old profession, you will be able to make an appropriate impression. (and hopefully you can request your aunt teach you just the basics, not prom makeup!)
Anyways, don't feel bad at all that your aunt is hounding you about this. just shrug it off and change the subject, there is no need to change when you feel great about yourself!
I have the same problems sometimes with family members. I have a young face and I don't wear make-up, so I look like a kid (I'm 24). But when I put on make-up, I just end up looking like a kid playing in mom's make-up. I know how to put it on, and I know what colors suit me. I just don't like the way it looks on me. I've had some bad experiences with my mom trying to make me over with make-up and having it look terrible. But there are a lot of light make-up options that look natural that enhance your best features, not cover up what you don't like and make you look like a totally different person. I'm not going to say that if you try it yourself, you'll like it. When you don't like something, you don't like it. But there are ways to make make-up and other beauty products work for you (you in the general sense). I think too many women work against their looks instead of work with them, and it's from all the shame we're supposed to feel about our bodies. It sucks really bad.
But here's where we part ways a little bit:
I don't want people to focus on whether or not I look attractive, I want them to focus on what I have to say or my personality or whatever.
When I was a teenager, I thought the same thing. That's because teenagers can get away with dressing just about any way and wearing varying degrees of make-up, from none to a ton. This isn't the case with grown-ups. You are going to eventually need to present yourself in a way that makes people want to listen to what you have to say. They don't have to fall in love with you, but they have to take you seriously. This means dressing more conventionally and have a cohesive look that identifies you as an adult with a career and an interesting life.
You are going to eventually need to present yourself in a way that makes people want to listen to what you have to say. They don't have to fall in love with you, but they have to take you seriously.
Exactly. And this is something I was trying to get at with my discussion about principles versus expediency. In principle, I'd love it if people took me seriously and respected what I have to say based on the quality of my thoughts, but realistically, it just doesn't work that way yet. It's the difference between "is" and "ought", philosophically speaking. In the world that ought to be, we could all be ourselves, no more and no less, and treat each other with dignity and respect anyway. But in the world that is, makeup is often a necessary evil if you want to be respected and taken seriously.
But Jannat hasn't said anything to suggest she presents herself in a way that wouldn't be taken seriously on an adult, only that she doesn't wear makeup or contacts.
Exactly my point.
Unfortunately, it is a sad fact that "professionalism" for a woman often includes makeup as part of the "professional appearance". Not always, and it's something feminists are seeking to root out for sure, but as I'm sure we all know, we do not yet live in the post-patriarchy. Especially since Jannat has said she wants to be a lawyer...that's a field that is still very very saturated with gender performativity as a prerequisite for professionalism.
This is not an endorsement of such behavior, of course. Merely an observation that it does, in fact, exist.
The statement of hers that I quoted and responded to was a global statement about her wanting to be judged by her personality and not her looks.
I know one or two very well respected female scientists who don't wear make-up at all, ever. Maybe it depends on which walk of life your in as to whether conforming in this way makes it easier for you.
I tend to think it is a little bit of a myth though, perpetuated by the beauty industry.
Welcome to posting, JannatM! Great first post!
I think I am the polar opposite of you when it comes to make-up. I love it, have always loved it, and have always felt sorry for men that they, too, couldn't wear it! (And that they couldn't wear dresses, colorful clothing, exciting styles, etc.) I was reveling in the 80s when boys did start wearing make-up!! I love men in make-up. (There is something incredibly sexy about a man who is so secure with his masculinity that he can wear make-up.) I had always wanted to be an actress up until the age of 24, and as such joined many theater groups and did all sorts o make-up, costume-y stuff, set design, etc.
I am an artist, so my creative inner self loves the art of every day living like make-up, hair styles, home decor, dressing, making anything pretty, etc. When I was younger, it would take me two hours each morning to get ready for school once I started wearing make-up and doing my hair. I felt like an artist every morning when I would choose my outfit, my make-up, etc. I also had pretty book covers, notebook covers, locker decor, and I regularly doodled all over my class work.
In my career as an exotic dancer, I had to do make-up and hair every day for work, and luckily I loved it. But as I did it every day, I learned to do it in much less time: I got it down to 15 minutes for hair and make-up, and another 5 for getting dressed.
Now that I am retired, I only wear it when the occasion calls for it, mostly because I can't be bothered. But when it is time to do the "do" I give it my all and love how I look.
I love how I look without make-up, too. But in my own life philosophy, I feel there are times and places when make-up is appropriate and fitting. When I go to an opening night at a theater or opera in NYC or London, it is a fun thing to dress up for- gala clothing and all. When I attend formal engagements, it is also appropriate. I always feel women who go to the bother of putting on a lovely gown for such an occasion but don't wear a lick of make-up or do their hair look really out of place. Like they should be at home on the couch (in other words, why bother coming to a formal affair if you aren't going to be there in the full spirit of it?). To me, it is the equivalent of showing up at the gym to work out in high heels: it just doesn't go.
Women are so fortunate that we can wear make-up. If we have a blemish, we can cover it. If we want to spice up our look, we can do it with cosmetics. Men can't. They're stuck with what they have, until Halloween, at least (one of my very favorite times of year!!). I'd never in a million years wish to be a man, or like a man. I adore being a woman and being able to have more freedom with my public appearance.
I know this is counter to a lot of peoples' opinions as feminists, but I am an unapologetic girly-girl. I love being a strong woman, I love being a feminist, and I love the fact that I can do all that in lipstick and stilettos! :)
You realize that Nowadays, in these modern times, men are sold concealers as well? There is also foundation, and other colours to even out the skin tone and give a more healthier look?
And these are products aimed at men?
You realize also that all those male stars you see on movies and TV...what, you think they go on without make-up?
The cosmetic industry for men is growing every day, while that for women have become saturated.
And if you go to other countries (come to Japan, for one), you'd find that men in other countries can dress it up and spice up their looks just as well as women. Maybe the choices are less, but choices can only grow larger.
And by the way, I have encountered so many women and ladies who tell me that they although life as a woman is not as priviledged as that of a man, they would never think of NOT being a women, simply because women have more options in clothing, accessories and make-up.
What the implication of that is, I shall leave to those more intelligent than me to work out.
Yes, I think cosmetic companies have found a new market: "metrosexuals". But I still don't think a lot of men feel comfortable wearing make-up. And as someone who was involved in theater and acting for much of my life, I also know that ALL people who are put in front of a camera must have some sort of make-up on or the camera picks up red pigmenting you didn't even know you had! Lol.
And as for Japan, lovely, lovely memories! I used to work in Kabuki-Cho as a stripper in a club that was back then called "Paradise". After work, my friends and I couldn't wait to walk to the station because we would get to pass by and flirt with the absolutely gorgeous hosts from the host clubs (where men serve and entertain women). They were so beautiful!! And they all wore make-up and had their eyebrows done just so. :) But I always had such a hard time getting laid in Japan. I really felt like high school boys here must feel: I tried everything to get into their undies, but very little luck. I think I frightened them. :D
My grandma was the only woman I ever knew who would wish she was a man. She'd always say that, and I would always ask her why. Her reasons were always to do with physical strength.
"Having a choice is always fun. But for some women out there, wearing makeup, heels or skirt is not an option. I like ties and suits, but when these things are forced on me, they become restrictions, not something to enjoy wearing."
Thank goddess I chose a profession in which my expected attire was fun!
Yes, I agree that anything that is forced is no longer fun. But if you find it fun in the first place, it isn't so bad to have to do it every day. I guess it's like anything, though. Even a hobby, when you must do it, may become less fun.
Also, working in corporate is very different from working as an artist, or even in advertising.
There are women out there, and I know plenty, who don’t want to wear makeup OR heels OR skirt, but they are told to do, and if not told, nudged to do so by their superiors, to appear more “professional”. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for a woman to be judged as unprofessional if she doesn’t wear makeup, but Bob in accounting is sporting shallow skin and eye bags but no one says anything to HIM. Same thing with men in corporate: cut your hair short, shave and you have to wear a tie, a suit and dark colours.
Having a choice is always fun. But for some women out there, wearing makeup, heels or skirt is not an option. I like ties and suits, but when these things are forced on me, they become restrictions, not something to enjoy wearing.
I hear you! I have an aunt who says the same sort of things to me, but she mostly focuses on my weight. It's to the point where she will tell me that she's "keeping track" of how much I'm eating at the dinner table. It sucks when you've got family doing that shit.
I appreciate everyone's comments a lot, and I respect all of your views. Thanks for commenting!
That being said, first of all, I consider myself to be more mature than just 17 years old. Secondly, I've never been the kind of person to just accept something I don't think is fair and just go along with it. Call me naive, but I still believe I can things for the better.
I don't dress in wild colors or anything like that. I dress so that people can take me seriously. I plan to be a lawyer, and in my professional life, I will dress and act professionally and in a way that I can be taken seriously. I wear lipgloss, but that's it. I'm not going to go out without looking presentable.
However, I don't think that makeup is that necessary for me to be taken seriously. Like I said, I wear light lipgloss, but honestly, I think that should be enough. I never do eye makeup or put on blush or cover-up or anything, and I do get taken seriously.
And swoplv, I think artists and people who play around with colors are so cool, so props to you! Haha.
Nice backhanded swipe at those of us who choose differently than you on this issue. You still believe you can change things for the better, unlike us old washouts who have just given up, right?
News for you: there are many ways to be a feminist, and many ways to change the world, and not all of them require going all-out, full-tilt, at EVERY obstacle you see. Feminists who choose to wear makeup, feminists who choose to shave their legs, feminists who behave "appropriately" femininely according to patriarchal standards, still believe we can change the world for the better. But it's called picking one's battles, and we've chosen other battles to fight.
This isn't to say you must choose the same battles we do. But careful of your disdain and where you spill it, just because we've chosen not to fight this particular battle with you.
I'm going to have to agree with your comments here, Jadelyn. Everyone picks their battles. No exceptions.
And what should "wild" colors have to do with anything? What makes a color "wild"? That seems to show cultural bias on Jannat's part.
I apologize. I didn't mean to sound disdainful to anyone's views.
However, in the comment you posted, you did imply that it's better to conform and makeup is a "necessary evil".
Ok, you know more about the world than I do. Fine. You have more life experience. I have never held a job, and you have, so you know more about what people expect.
I know what feminism is about, and again, I didn't mean to sound disdainful, but excuse me for wanting to change something I think is unfair.
And again, I know how to look presentable. And honestly, I look fine with lipgloss. We had to do a prestigious presentation last semester. I wore dress clothes and lipgloss. And I got full marks. Meaning no one at that presentation was hounding me about make-up.
First, thank you for the apology.
I don't believe I ever implied that it's *better* to conform. That was certainly not my intent. I simply said that *I* have made the personal choice to go with the flow on the makeup issue because for me, it's just not worth the time and energy and negative social effect to fight that particular battle. Choosing not to wear makeup, choosing to buck the trend, is absolutely a viable and open option, and I wish you well in it. I'd just ask that you keep an open mind about those who have chosen other points of patriarchy to focus their ire on.
And I respect your choice. I know lots of women who wear makeup, and honestly, you should do whatever works for you. But what bothers me is when I meet people like my aunt who tell me that I should also wear makeup.
My mother is the administrator at her place of employment, meaning she is everyone's boss. She only wears lipstick, but no one ever accuses her of being unprofessional. Of course that may have something to do with her being everyone's boss.
"That being said, first of all, I consider myself to be more mature than just 17 years old."
Doesn't every 17 year old?
I'm sorry, but it's just the truth. When you're young (and I'm quite young myself, but with a little perspective on your age) everything seems to be a bit more black/white.
All or nothing propositions work fine until you actually road test them and see that they usually don't work. We live in a world of compromises, it's just that simple, and sometimes in order to get what we want we have to employ some finesse.
It's easy to look at things through this all or nothing filter, but once you've got some student loans to pay off I think you just might reconsider wearing makeup to an interview or two. I've certainly compromised my dress habits upon going to college, and will have to further compromise them to get a job. It's the world we live in.
You may think you look presentable, but here are a couple of things:
a. Adults get held to a higher standard than teens. What's enough for you to be taken seriously now will probably not be enough in the future. I used to get away with not wearing a tie to some events. Not any more.
b. You may think lip gloss ought to be enough to be taken seriously, but there's a difference between ought to and is. The world won't magically conform to your standards.
It may be unfair, but it's also reality.
Adults get held to a higher standard than teens. What's enough for you to be taken seriously now will probably not be enough in the future.
This. Majorly so. I did a few events in high school where I needed to appear "professional"...but the professional appearance I got away with then, wouldn't fly at any of the corporations I've dealt with as an adult. Also, even if you can remain at a "teen" level of professional appearance as an adult, it will likely result in you being treated as a teen.
I LOVE make-up. I always have and always will. But, it can be such a pain sometimes. There are days where I'd rather sleep in than put on make-up for work. On those days, I pull my hair back into a neat ponytail or bun and put on lip balm. I believe that as long as you look neat and clean, you should be fine in most offices. In fact, even though I work in a mostly female office, I'm only one of two women who actually wear make-up on a somewhat regular basis.
*I still believe I can change things for the better.
Sorry for the typo.
But Jannat hasn't said anything to suggest she presents herself in a way that wouldn't be taken seriously on an adult, only that she doesn't wear makeup or contacts.
@jannat
Good for you. I don't wear makeup most of the time, and I'm not a lawyer but I'm paid pretty well, and as a bonus for being a geek my "put together" look isn't all that put together. So not everyplace in society judges you badly based on causal dress either.
You CAN be successful and taken seriously without doing makeup. Good luck with the lawyer bit, my smarts are limited to math&science, law amazes and confuses me :)
That said, Your aunt lives in a world where being makeup-pretty leads to success. No harm done, and maybe you learned some things about makeup that will be fun for you at some future point.
"as a bonus for being a geek my "put together" look isn't all that put together. "
Amen. The aesthetic exceptions for my field aren't set very high. I like it that way.
This is just to say
You never need
make up or
expensive
shampoo
to wash
your hair or
to shine.
Your dignity
is enough,
your intelligence
so necessary
so bold.
Thank you for this.
THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN DELETED BECAUSE IT VIOLATES OUR COMMENT POLICY.
I'm sorry your aunt sounds like she thinks she is trying to help you, but I know how irritating it can be. I also know that you can have a perfectly successful life without makeup (where I live at least) so I do not think you should feel like she's right and you have to ascribe to the beauty standard.
I know how it feels from various experiences I had that were similar as a teenager.
However, my personal perspective on makeup and all things beauty, and this is important when you think about brands like BedHead I think, is that it SHOULD be about fun. Now, honestly, even though I didn't until recently wear makeup daily I have always enjoyed playing with makeup. As a feminist I think playing and doing things that make you feel good is important - and for me, especially when I was in college, wearing brightly colored eyeshadow and coloring my hair outrageous colors was very fun. I think brands like BedHead with their marketing are trying to get to that sort of fun: one of my favorite products by them is called "After Party" (and the container looks suspiciously phallic) and I have another one called "Boys Toys" (not phallic at all). As for makeup that I purchase I am always careful about what brands I support though because I do recognize that not all cosmetic companies tend to support my view of makeup/beauty. I try not to support companies that I feel like try to make makeup "necessary" and not fun.
It's just a thought though to give you another perspective. I'm still not saying you should wear makeup. I take the same approach to my glasses. I have many different frames and dozens of sunglasses. I enjoy changing how I look because to some extent changing how you look changes how other people react to you and for me, it can be fun.
I wear glasses too, rock on! But yeah, I was at a resteraunt and a "friend" of mine told me to take off my glasses (although my perscription is 350/20) because they made me look "ugly". This girl also wanted me to put on more eyeliner, because apparently it made me look "better". Later that night I realized that girl and I weren't really friends. But yeah, it's unfortunate that incidents like this are so common.
One thing I might suggest for you, JannatM, is that you find a compromise you can at least accept.
My current job doesn't expect female employees to wear makeup, but I have had ones that did. My response was see that I was 'well-groomed' - eyebrows tweezed, etc. - and wore minimal makeup. Mascara, lip gloss, and a tinted moisturizer. Nothing too heavy, but enough to produce what's typically seen as a more 'polished, professional' look.
I agree that it's ridiculous such a double standard exists when it comes to appearance, but a woman has to eat.
Rock on JannetM. Keep trying to change things. I don't wear make-up or look particularly feminine in my professional life. I would have to say that it does hurt me in subtle ways. No one is going to tell a PhD engineer to wear make-up, but there is definitely a preference for feminine women at my company. My choice is to suck it up. Maybe my non-make-up wearing ways will make a more comfortable atmosphere here for the next unfeminine woman.
To all the people who keep saying that JM hasn't said anything to indicate that she behaves in an unprofessional manner: For some audiences, an unfeminine appearance is all it takes to perceive a woman negatively.
I'm young too, but no one's ever particularly told me to expect to have to wear makeup to look "professional". Professional clothes, of course, but I have to wear those now sometimes.
Maybe it's where I live? I've heard that Washington State/the West Coast in general is much more casual than a lot of the rest of the US. Not having traveled much outside the area I'm not sure, but I've heard it a lot.
Or maybe planning to go into science gives people different expectations of me?
I've also only worn makeup a handful of times in my life (I'm 22 now), and I can tell you it doesn't make any difference whether you do or not. I always felt more self-conscious and awkward when I wore it so I just never did. I still graduated college and got a good job and lead a fulfilling life.
Sure, your aunt is just trying to do what she thinks is best for you. Maybe she thinks that it's a way to get a leg up in the world (literally?) Just keep telling her you'd rather not, or that you will wear it/learn to put it on on your own terms. As for the glasses, you can find some powerful/famous women (or men) to show your aunt to tell her that wearing glasses is not going to hold you back either.
Wow. Concern troll much, people?
Jannat did not say she doesn't know how to put makeup on, she's admitted to wearing it before. Making a hue and cry over how important it is for women to know how to wear makeup even if they hate it because people won't take you seriously as a professional if you don't get all dolled up is bullshit.
I wear makeup when I'm going to see clients, or if I want to look particularly nice on a night out. 99% of the time, I don't wear it. I don't like the way it feels, I don't like the cost, and I don't like the way it feeds the expectations that all women have to wear it all the time. When I was working in the office without being a "public face of the company", I stopped wearing it and there wasn't a peep. I know there are women who have gotten shit professionally for not wearing makeup, but there are plenty of women who cruise by in professional positions just fine without layering the makeup on, thankyouverymuch.
Honestly, you all need to stop and listen to yourself. There's a lot of crap that women are "expected to go along with" in a professional environment at the risk of not rocking the boat and making things hard for themselves professionally. A few decades ago, if Jannat had written that her boss slaps her on the ass and makes comments about her tits, and it makes her uncomfortable, would you write back telling her that she should just grin and bear it might make it hard for her to find a job if she gets a reputation as a troublemaker for objecting to this sort of treatment?
Jannat -- I don't know what sort of career you had planned for yourself, but if you're freaked out by all these comments telling you you're doomed, DOOMED because you don't want to wear makeup, I've got two letters for you:
I.T.
Concern troll? Why, because people don't choose to fight that aspect in their lives and they're sharing that opinion?
I HATE this two extremes thing. Why are you saying "all dolled up?" I read most of the people saying in the post that you could keep it MINIMAL in a professional environment. I wear makeup every single day, and I don't view a tinted moisturizer and lip gloss as 'dolled up.' I don't know what your intention with the term is, but you make it seem like the feminists who disagree with the point in this thread are telling her that she needs to layer on the blush and lipstick to succeed.
I am totally aware that women get adversely affected by this. But this is my personal take on it. Maybe some of you women are so lucky to never need to cover up skin/lip issues. The only reason I began wearing light makeup at 13 was because I had serious acne problems and combination skin. You could say that makeup was pushed on me by society, and I won't deny that aspect. However, I felt much more put-together once I began wearing foundation, powder, (to tone down the redness and my oily skin) and lip balm with a tinted gloss. That's it. In appearance, it made me feel neater, and I had more confidence in myself.
All what I said above? Like I said, aware that patriarchy has influences on all of it. However, I 1) enjoy wearing makeup now and 2) am aware that it makes me look more presentable. Like washing and brushing my hair, ironing my clothes, and polishing my shoes.
I think that the posters above who are pointing out the 'real life' aspect are just saying that, for better or for worse, appearance DOES have play in our lives, man or woman. Although I feel that women suffer more in that- I can point you to quite a few men who have been rejected for different things because of their appearance. If the poster wants to compromise in the future, then I think that the posters' advice above is helpful. Thank your aunt (because annoying as she is, I do believe that in her own twisted way, she is concerned for you) and firmly remind her that you do not intend to wear makeup and you are old enough to decide this on your own, but if you decide to do so in the future, you will keep her advice in mind. (And about the glasses, I can't think of a nicer way to say "screw you", so you're on your own with that. Glasses rock!)
And if you feel that you need to one day, there are a number of ways to use minimal makeup to tidy up your appearance without looking dolled up. And that's it!
I guess I'll be called a 'concern troll' too, but I'm just posting my take on it, especially since I was at the same place at a young age. (And I was mature for 17 too, but believe me, no matter how old or young we act, we are still our ages in many ways!)
I'm in my mid-twenties now, and my family STILL won't stop making fun of me for wearing makeup and nicer clothes. I started wearing makeup 10 years ago and they're STILL on me for it! However, I learned to just listen to myself and what I wanted (and the girl who hid from the makeup artists when she was 10 loves to wear it now). It was hard initially because I felt like I was betraying women and my own pride. I just don't want other women to feel that way, to feel guilty for wearing some makeup.
Things like Brushing Hair, Showering, and Wearing Clean Clothes are in a completely different category from wearing makeup and you know it.
The former are matters of hygiene. Having matted, smelly hair, reeking underarms, and stained clothing tells other people that the person in question has poor hygiene and (in the case of bad odors from not showering) it is offensive to be around that person.
More to the point, failure to brush hair, shower, or change into clean clothing is something that negatively impacts both genders. When was the last time a man got fired for not wearing makeup?
Makeup is not a matter of hygiene: it is a way of saying that women's faces are broken as they are and must be covered up with makeup in order to be acceptable in public.
And you know what, I could care less for the fact that you wear makeup, or your reasons for doing so. What I care about is that this young woman wrote a post in which she takes a stand against the patriarchal norms and says "you know what, I *don't* want to wear makeup, or get contacts, or worry about fashion, and its frustrating that more people don't respect that" and she gets a dozen comments from supposed feminists having the fucking vapors because she dared to plant her feet and declare that she was comfortable with her own look in her own skin.
Frankly, it reminds me a little too much of when I mention conversationally that my husband and I aren't having kids and instead of people just accepting that, it's an invitation to tell us how wrong our personal decisions are, how much we'll regret it in the future, and how broken our lives will be.
Lay the fuck off of JannatM. If there comes a day when she decides she wants to start wearing makeup, that's entirely her decision, she doesn't need a bunch of people whining and worrying about her future, or how her decision hurt their feelings.
Seriously, I tried to discuss how I felt in a civil tone. I'm not a troll. Don't be condescending to me or tell me to "lay the fuck" off of the OP. I love how some posters are so paranoid about moderating comments and yet I can't post civilly, without people using profanities.
I totally understand what you are saying. I *repeatedly* stated in my post that I am aware that a patriarchal society most likely had an effect on my decisions. I, in my post, don't mean to tell her that she will regret it in the future. I don't agree with those who are saying that. But I look at the topic differently, and I wanted to explain why. I view minimal makeup use, personally, as a hygiene issue. If you disagree, there's nothing that I can do about it. Oh well.
And this is an open thread. Seriously, Feministing would be so boring if everyone just posted "Congrats, you rock!" over. And over. And over again. This is a forum. People, like myself, want to post about a certain aspect of the thread. People derail things or post their own personal storiesll perspectives) (and I enjoy reading a. I think that it's okay to disagree with what we're posting, but I don't think that it's okay to tell us what we should be posting.
I meant to say (and I enjoy reading both sides of a debate)...don't know what happened with the formatting.
Minimal makeup is a hygiene issue? Seriously? You would consider a woman who didn't wear at least foundation and lipgloss to be UNHYGIENIC?
You do realize that the word "hygiene" has certain scientific and medical connotations, right, and that it's not just a matter of personal preference that happens to conform to whatever point your trying to make on the internet and whether or not you think a woman who's comfortable with her features and complexion is like, totally grodey to the max?
A lot of women experience worse breakouts when they wear makeup because it clogs their pores. In the same way DIRT does. Washing your face every day and applying astringent is the end of "hygiene." Adding makeup to a washed face is is no way hygienic. It is a matter of aesthetics.
Furthermore, I call huge bullshit on your hand-wringing about how you don't "view" my assertion that compulsory makeup is a way of enforcing the belief that women's faces are broken and are not fit to be seen in public without being covered in makeup. We're not talking about me going out on a date and deciding to wear a little eyeliner and lipstick: We're talking about a job telling a woman that she is unprofessional and doesn't have a place in the company because the natural look of her face is not acceptable when no similar requirement is placed on men. You're engaging in especially trollish reasoning by pretending I'm talking about yelling at someone because they want to Look Cute For a Date. You just said that you would consider a lack of basic makeup to be a hygiene violation, and then you turn around and try to pretend that you're just fine and dandy with a woman's natural look and that you don't consider makeup a way of shaming women about their complexion, pores, or features.
Like I said, I could give two poops about your personal rationalizations for wearing makeup. I don't care if every time you put on mascara you're convinced a unicorn has an orgasm. But you're pretending like this is some empowered choice you've made and that the rest of us need to pop champagne corks and cast hairy eyeballs at all those dirty nasty UNHYGIENIC girls who don't have your good sense and I'm not down with that. Sorry.
Thanks for standing up for me.
:]
And when I wear makeup, I normally get breakouts too. My skin is very sensitive with that stuff.
I with there was a way to click "I liked this" about a million times. Thank you THANK YOU Mighty Ponygirl, I was reading these comments with increasing disbelief and horror, thinking I had mistakenly navigated to CosmoGirl or something.
JannatM, the only opinion that matters about how your face looks is YOURS. If you like it better without makeup, then don't fucking wear makeup, and don't let anyone tell you it's "unprofessional" or some bullshit like that. The problem is NOT your appearance. The problem is the constant, exhausting, inescapable scrutiny of women's appearance which pervades our culture to the degree that the feminist posters on a feminist blog TAKE IT FOR GRANTED.
I actually agree with the first half of what many other posters have said - we live in a sexist society in which you will be subject to negative attention if you do not perform conventional beauty (in this case, wearing makeup). This is shitty and uncomfortable. But the answer to that is not to force yourself to wear makeup when you don't want to. It is absolutely possible to look professional without makeup. It is absolutely possible to go to college, go to law school, get a job and stand in a courtroom without wearing makeup.
So, good luck!
"Makeup is not a matter of hygiene: it is a way of saying that women's faces are broken as they are and must be covered up with makeup in order to be acceptable in public."
I don't take it that way at all. I do not feel broken. If you take it that way, then I respect your actions against that. But I know my face is not broken. I see make-up as an advantage we have to play and have fun where most men do not.
And in the 80s when men wore make-up, I doubt they did it because they thought their faces were broken.
Wow, the fury make-up can cause! Great topic Jannat!
So, for my two sense on the make-up debate, I think it depends on the field you work in and who you work with for the most part.
For example, three scenarios:
A)My friend works in as an executive assistant for a professional non-profit org, my multi-colored haired, facial pierced, make-up less friend. She dressed professionally and it works fine for her.
B)My mother the accountant wouldn't be caught dead going to work without make up. I think she is the only one at her work place who notices, but I know she sometimes gets a couple jokes if she has grey roots showing, but she's pretty sharp with balding jokes.
C)I work in a very male dominated medical lab (I'm the only female out of 8 employees) and wear make-up when I feel like it; it will also depend on the make up. Some days, I'll wear eye make up, but I do so for fun; others I don't. Sometimes I wear cover up on angry dying zits. (opinion: Ideally, you shouldn't have to wear foundation or cover up unless your skin isn't behaving. I personally try to avoid non-powder foundation because it makes my skin break out more, perpetrating a nasty pattern). No one notices if I wear make up or not and I am considered "one of the guys" to the point where an employee had to explain to a visiting superior that me being a female in the lab shouldn't be a shock since my gender "it doesn't change anything".
Oh, and Jannat, glasses rock! Contacts can be fun too, with eye-color changing ones, but I would never get rid of my glasses, especially since there are so many cute frames out now. In an ideal world, professional *behaviour* is what really should matter.
Sorry! Long post!
My frames are really cute. I just got them a few weeks ago, and I love them! They're dark-rimmed on the outside and light purple on the inside and sides. They're awesome.
I rarely ever wear make-up and have had absolutely no problems in my professional life because of it. I was accepted to a prestigious college and have a begun a great career. So to the OP, don't get bogged down by all the people telling you how important make-up is. It's really not and if people give you shit about it, just explain to them that you like your face the way it is and that you do not like the way make-up makes you feel.
I'm actually quite surprised at all the comments talking about how important make-up is to a professional appearance. Are we still living in the 1950s? Maybe I've just had no experience with these types of expectations because I'm in the science field, but it just seems a bit ridiculous to me. I understand that people pick their battles, but that doesn't mean we should be hounding the OP by saying that make-up is necessary to be taken seriously (I highly doubt that) or that she's young and will change her mind about make-up. That's just paternalistic and uncalled for. I hope people are exaggerating about the importance of make-up in the law profession, and if not then I'm very grateful I didn't go into such a shallow field.
I rarely ever wear make-up and have had absolutely no problems in my professional life because of it. I was accepted to a prestigious college and have a begun a great career. So to the OP, don't get bogged down by all the people telling you how important make-up is. It's really not and if people give you shit about it, just explain to them that you like your face the way it is and that you do not like the way make-up makes you feel.
I'm actually quite surprised at all the comments talking about how important make-up is to a professional appearance. Are we still living in the 1950s? Maybe I've just had no experience with these types of expectations because I'm in the science field, but it just seems a bit ridiculous to me. I understand that people pick their battles, but that doesn't mean we should be hounding the OP by saying that make-up is necessary to be taken seriously (I highly doubt that) or that she's young and will change her mind about make-up. That's just paternalistic and uncalled for.
Sorry about the double post
The archetypal example of a successful woman who didn't care for beauty standards is Marie Curie, coincidentally a scientist like you (us). Her family insisted that they buy her a new dress for her wedding, she sulked during the whole experience and insisted that what she end up with could be worn in the lab. She eventually got a navy blue dress that she wore to her wedding and in the lab.
Reference: Marie Curie's biography written by one of her daughters. I highly recommend it.
I'm a bit late to the posting here and don't really have much to add. I did want to say one thing though; basically be yourself is good advice there will be many out there who like you for who you are. So conforming to societies beauty standards isn't really in your best interest. Your Aunt seems to be keen on making you up to appeal to people but what's there's no good in appealing to people by being someone else.
On a personal note I find no make-up and glasses attractive. I tell you this only so you know that being yourself won't make you unattractive to others. It's not an 'either/or' thing.
Jannat, I think you should be so proud of yourself! At your age, it is rare to have enough conviction about who you are to stick up for yourself, and to refuse to change in response to the patriarchal expecations that society often puts on young women. I certainly wasn't as in touch with my feminist philosophy as you are when I was 17.
I think that many of the posters here are correct when they say that refusing to conform to some of the beauty standards out there can cause problems for you in a professional environment, but I also think that you should continue to do what you are most comfortable with. I think, for me at least, a big part of being a feminist is proving these sterotypes false. I think that the main thing is that you are confident and happy with yourself - which you seem to be. It is definitely annoying when people try to convince you that there is something about you that needs to change, that you need to fit into this restrictive box that defines femininity and professionalism, and that is probably something that you will continue to have to deal with. But stick to your guns, and be who you want to be.
I'm with you, Jannat :) Personally, I can't stand makeup. You know how people grease and flour a baking sheet so their baked items don't stick to it? my face has always felt like that after applying makeup. Horrible. But, that being said, I do wear makeup about 6 times a year as my hobby requires it -- I wear costumes for certain events, and participants of both genders will want to wear makeup purely to create theatrical effects, as well as to come out nicely in photos.
But as for the professional world...well, I'm youngish (25) too, but in my experience makeup isn't strictly necessary. I (sometimes) wear it to interviews with the intent of giving myself an 'edge', but after the first day on the job I invariably quit wearing it.
Currently I work a desk job -- and do you want to know something else funny? I wear men's clothes every single day (and am perceived as female, so to the perception of my coworkers I have been coming to work in drag for nearly a year now.) Men's jeans/tees when it's casual, men's dress shirts/slacks when I need to look more professional. Also, super-short hair. Nobody has said a single word to me about it, and the fact that I recently survived a round of layoffs means that I was being judged by my skills and not my perceived lack of adherence to social gender expectations (and yes, I was chosen over women who DID wear makeup.)
When I was your age I still believed my mother when she nearly promised me that I would never be hired unless I wore skirts and heavy makeup everywhere (to say nothing of my haircut.) This is not to say that no employer will ever consider your physical appearance in an interview, but so long as you're not moving towards customer-service or PR-related fields (and it doesn't sound like you are!) people will tend not to care as much.
Great first post, JannatM, and welcome to community posting.
To give you a bit of background on me and the "beauty" industry, I hardly ever wear makeup (when I do, it's because I'm dressing up as someone else; sometimes costume, sometimes for events or just going out), and I also don't shave any of my body hair. I'm a redhead, so it's easier for me to "pass" as a shaver, but it still gets me into some pretty interesting conversations.
Generally, if someone asks me why I don't shave, or why I don't wear makeup, I smile and say, "Well, since men don't have to shave their armpits, I don't see why I should have to!". Feminism Lite TM.
My partner suggested that I say; "Sorry, I was under the impression that I owned my body..." as a bit of a snarkier remark.
I work in theatre, and I sometimes have to wear stage makeup, not for "beauty", but for visibility. We need to accentuate our features so that people can see what we're feeling as much as possible. This has led me to an interesting relationship with makeup - both regarding how I feel when I'm wearing makeup (in character) and how I see the function of makeup.
I understand your frustration, and I'm not trying to allay your anger. I think it's such a useful force, and one that you should continue on into action. I hope, however, that I've given you another point of view about the absurd face-painting that our culture expects of us :)
I have contacts, but not because they make me "more attractive" (infact, i believe i look better in my glasses.) I have them because I work at a Renaissance faire, and i'm enough of a freak about being in-period to get them!
I'm very proud of you for your strong views at such a young age. I'm 19, and have always been kinda feminist, but i'm one of it seems very few in my lovely suburban hell. I don't know if it's just where i live, but there seem to be very few younger people with strong views outside the realm of religion. And the strong religious views are the usual anti-choice patriarchal moopoo, not the compassion and acceptance of Christianity in it's ideal form.
Good on you, Jannat! I'm 26, held several professional jobs and haven't worn makeup (regularly) to any of them. Maybe once a month to go out I'll put some eye stuff on, but other than that it is a serious chore and not worth it. I understand not all women have the luxury of being able to not wear makeup, but I think those among us who eschew the face paint are helping to make it an actual choice, not a patriarchal form of control.
That said, I wanted to add that makeup can have some serious deleterious effects on your personal health. The FDA does not regulate any of the ingredients in makeup, and many companies make false claims of being "fragrance free" or "dermatologist tested" when they are not. Further, nearly all makeups that are not organic contain known carcinogens, hormone disrupters and other dangerous substances that are readily absorbed through the skin. I know nearly everything causes cancer these days, just food for thought.