My best friend is a guy. He's been my friend for over 15 years now. He's great in many ways and I love him like a brother. I know that I can tell him anything and he'll always be there for me. That said, he, of course, like any human being, has his problems.
I am a rape survivor. It happened just over 8 years over. He is aware of this. He was one of the first people I told. He's tried to be there for me as much as he can but really he doesn't know how to help and I really don't know what I want from him other then the occasional shoulder to cry on or person to talk to about it. For the most part, he's really great about it. But there's one thing he does that's just horrible:
He tells rape jokes.
They really really upset me and I've told him this many times. I've told him calmly and politely and I've also yelled at him about it. No matter what he doesn't seem to "get" it and even though he says he'll stop, he often forgets and out comes another rape "joke" a month later.
One of his favorite "jokes" is to lean in and whisper to me "I'm going to rape you later." This sends chills down my spine for obvious reasons. I don't know why he finds it humorous, maybe because he likes seeing my horrified reaction? I always tell him "That's not funny and no you're not" in a very serious tone to make sure he knows I don't find it amusing and I'm not joking in any way. To which he usually responds something along the lines of "Well it won't be rape if you agree to it" or something like that. I think in his mind he somehow thinks he's giving me some sort of compliment.
Now, most of the time when he says a "joke" he's been drinking but I still don't buy that as an excuse, nor does that make it hurt any less. And he's not always drunk when he says them. He always seems to fall back on the whole: "This is how I've always been. You've known me for 15 years, I can't just change now." Granted, it's true that probably when I was younger I laughed at these stupid kinds of "jokes." I wasn't always a feminist and I wasn't always a survivor. I was immature and stupid and didn't understand why those kinds of "jokes" were NOT FUNNY. Even if you're not a survivor of rape they are NOT FUNNY.
These "jokes" used to be few and far between which made them much easier to deal with. But lately, for whatever reason, they've become more frequent. It all came to a head this Saturday night when we were out drinking and he told one "joke" too many and we got into a huge screaming match. He was supposed to stay over at my apartment (I live in the city and he lives in the suburbs so he usually stays with me after a night of drinking in the city seeing as it's a long, expensive cab ride home for him) but I ended up locking him out. He called me several times and I didn't pick up and I can only assume he hopped in a cab and went home. I tried to call him yesterday but he did not answer. I assume now he's made at me for "throwing a fit" and taking things "too seriously."
I don't really know what to do. Like I said, I think of him as a brother. I love him to death. I know this post makes him sound like a crappy guy and a bad friend but really he's not in almost every other aspect of our relationship. But these "jokes" just really piss me off and I can't take it anymore. I don't know how to make him understand and stop. Part of me thinks that I just need to take some time away from him for a while, but that won't help him stop telling those "jokes," it'll just help me not be as angry. I really want him to understand why rape isn't at all funny and why his "jokes" are completely inappropriate. I never thought it would be so hard to get him to realize this but it is!
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This is how I've always been. You've known me for 15 years, I can't just change now."
This seems lazy. I don't want to come off as insulting a friend of yours that you say you care about, but it's just plain lazy and more than a little inconsiderate of him. I can't imagine the sort of mindset you'd have to be in to whisper, "I'm going to rape you" to a friend who you know has been raped. Insisting he can't change (c'mon, you're not asking him to suddenly change his entire personality) is akin to people saying, "I'm so sick of this PC thing, I refuse to be PC and tiptoe around afraid of who I might offend."
You say that you think taking some time away from him isn't going to make him stop telling his jokes, but A) why do you want to keep subjecting yourself to that? and B) maybe it's time to remove yourself from his life for a while so that he sees you're serious about this.
And if he's mad at you for throwing a fit and taking things too seriously - um, if that's not something to get angry about, I don't know what is. You SHOULD take it too seriously. HE doesn't take it seriously enough.
At this point, I think silence will say more to him than anything else.
i'm so sorry your friend is acting that way. i'm sure he has his reasons/excuses BUT that doesn't negate the effect it has on you. if he can't see the trade off (stopping the jokes in order to keep you around) or understand the seriousness of it, you need to walk away. it's not healthy. it's hard to walk away from a friend i know, but it's going to be harder in the long run to be consistently disrespected about something so serious.
Dear Gods, sometimes I read posts on here and think I truly must be living in a real life episode of The Twilight Zone. There is no shortage of stories of the 'this person is a really great friend/guy and a really great person all around except when he is verbally tormenting/physically molesting/emotionally battering me' variety. It reminds me of the letters to Dear Abby where the letter writer begins by saying that she is happily married to a handsome, caring, wonderful man with the exception of just one teensy weensy problem: he beats me up when he gets andgy which is really only when he is drinking which is only once or twice a day.
I'm having a hard time understanding in what context someone would even make a 'I'm going to rape you later' joke. I honestly cannot even fathom a situation where that would come up, especially when the offending party knows full well what trauma you have suffered. All of his other good qualities don't mean shit if ultimately he uses some shared personal information of yours to bait or needlessly torment you with later. That is what a sadist does. Please understand that. This guy gets some sick pleasure out of making you squirm and that should worry you. It worries me and I don't even know you. It's no different than the battering husband who brings you flowers to distract you from what is really going on.
I don't know if you've received professional help for this, but please consider it. You sound quite young and there is no need to spend the best years of your life involved in toxic relationships like this.
I know this is a person you care about very much, and the idea of cutting him off entirely is horrible. But it may be your best bet to say "I am a rape survivor. Rape jokes bother me. If you don't stop making excuses to make rape jokes, then you obviously do not respect me, and I shouldn't be around those who don't respect me. End of story." or something to that effect.
Dear Gods, sometimes I read posts on here and think I truly must be living in a real life episode of The Twilight Zone. There is no shortage of stories of the 'this person is a really great friend/guy and a really great person all around except when he is verbally tormenting/physically molesting/emotionally battering me' variety. It reminds me of the letters to Dear Abby where the letter writer begins by saying that she is happily married to a handsome, caring, wonderful man with the exception of just one teensy weensy problem: he beats me up when he gets andgy which is really only when he is drinking which is only once or twice a day.
I'm having a hard time understanding in what context someone would even make a 'I'm going to rape you later' joke. I honestly cannot even fathom a situation where that would come up, especially when the offending party knows full well what trauma you have suffered. All of his other good qualities don't mean shit if ultimately he uses some shared personal information of yours to bait or needlessly torment you with later. That is what a sadist does. Please understand that. This guy gets some sick pleasure out of making you squirm and that should worry you. It worries me and I don't even know you. It's no different than the battering husband who brings you flowers to distract you from what is really going on.
I don't know if you've received professional help for this, but please consider it. You sound quite young and there is no need to spend the best years of your life involved in toxic relationships like this.
I'm so sorry you are dealing with this situation.
Honestly, it sounds like your friend is kind of a mean drunk. The first think I would say is to talk about this with him when neither of you are drinking, so hopefully you can both stay calm. I think you need to initiate a serious conversation about if you can remain friends. Some things to bring up.
* He is actively and truly hurting you with his jokes
* He thinks it's funny to hurt you
* He thinks rape jokes are harmless
* He seems to think of rape as a compliment, which it is not. If he's at all willing to listen to a feminist perspective without writing it off immediately, you might direct him to this awesome post as Shakesville. http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2006/12/rape-is-not-compliment.html
To be blunt - your "friend" is acting like a douchebag.
He knows that you are a rape survivor and he's known this fact for 8 years.
And he persists in making rape "jokes" - including whispering what amounts to a rape threat in your ear!
A "friend" like that is not a real friend.
Hard as it may be, you'd be better off if you unfriended this guy.
I suggest tazering him every time he says something like that.
Pavlov for the win!
Part of me thinks that I just need to take some time away from him for a while, but that won't help him stop telling those "jokes," it'll just help me not be as angry
As Alixana said, taking some time away from him might actually stop him from telling rape jokes around you, because it will show him you're serious.
He needs to understand that his behavior is not acceptable. As it stands, he is not being a very good friend to you. A friendship should never cause as much stress and grief as his behavior is causing you, and you deserve better.
I can't help but think that this relationship is toxic for you. You know, fifteen years is a long time, and people change. Is this guy really the same person who helped you out eight years ago when you were raped? Or has he changed a lot since then? Try to judge this relationship by how it is now instead of how it used to be.
Dear Gods, sometimes I read posts on here and think I truly must be living in a real life episode of The Twilight Zone. There is no shortage of stories of the 'this person is a really great friend/guy and a really great person all around except when he is verbally tormenting/physically molesting/emotionally battering me' variety. It reminds me of the letters to Dear Abby where the letter writer begins by saying that she is happily married to a handsome, caring, wonderful man with the exception of just one teensy weensy problem: he beats me up when he gets andgy which is really only when he is drinking which is only once or twice a day.
I'm having a hard time understanding in what context someone would even make a 'I'm going to rape you later' joke. I honestly cannot even fathom a situation where that would come up, especially when the offending party knows full well what trauma you have suffered. All of his other good qualities don't mean shit if ultimately he uses some shared personal information of yours to bait or needlessly torment you with later. That is what a sadist does. Please understand that. This guy gets some sick pleasure out of making you squirm and that should worry you. It worries me and I don't even know you. It's no different than the battering husband who brings you flowers to distract you from what is really going on.
I don't know if you've received professional help for this, but please consider it. You sound quite young and there is no need to spend the best years of your life involved in toxic relationships like this.
Slow internet connection? I can relate. You're probably sitting there at the computer thinking "why won't my comment submit? whyyy? This is important! gggrrr!"
It seems like every now and then one thread on here gets overrun with double and triple submits. I suspect feministing. :)
Yeah, I was wondering why it posted so many times when I swear I only hit 'submit' once!!!!!!
Well, it is a very good comment :P
I know it's hard to stop being friends with someone who's been your friends for 15 years. I'd try to have a conversation like Jackie describes AND make it clear that if he does it again you won't hesitate to make him go home again. Someone who sleeps over has to respect you and saying things that hurt you and not even trying to understand that they do is not respectful. He will probably try to argue with you and say you're overreacting. Arguing with him will probably not help. He needs to respect your boundaries in order to hang out with you and that's that. No negotiation. You know what you need to feel respected.
Thank you so far for the responses. I'm going to try my best not to sound defensive, but no guarantees here.
I understand this guy sounds like an ass from the way I've described him. In this situation he totally is an ass. However, if I wrote a post describing the millions of ways he's an awesome guy it could go on for 60 pages and it still wouldn't be sufficient. But I didn't do that because obviously that stuff is not what's bothering me.
Not being friends with him is not an option. It's just not. That will never happen. He is my family. Yes, I can take a break from seeing or talking to him for a while, and I'll probably do that just for myself, but that's as far as that will go. The reason I said I didn't see how not talking to him would be helpful was that I meant I didn't see how that would make him "get" why rape jokes were offensive. Yes, I do think it would be helpful for me.
Also, someone mentioned being worried that he was upset with me. I'm not worried if he's mad at me. I think I had a perfectly legitimate reason to lock him out and yell at him. If he's mad at me for getting angry that's his problem.
To Crumpet, just a sidenote, I don't know what you meant by young, but I'm in my late 20s so I don't think of myself as young at all anymore.
There's much more I want to say, but this whole conversation drains me, as I'm sure you can imagine. I'm respond more later. But again, thanks for all the responses so far.
Being a man who has presumably never been raped, it's entirely possible that he'll never truly "get" why rape jokes are offensive.
However.
He should "get" that telling rape jokes upsets you. And if he understands that part, it shouldn't really matter if he understands WHY. He should simply want to not upset his friend, especially one who he appears to be very close to. If the silence on your part for a while helps him clue in to this part of the equation, then it may solve your problem. If he doesn't get this part, he's just mean. That's the bottom line.
i totally understand your situation. i have several male friends that have been close for that long too. it'd be hard to walk away. i guess all you can really do is let him know that it's so serious you've considered walking away, and the idea of doing that makes you really sad because in X number of ways, he's such a wonderful person.
my only other advice is to imagine someone else in your situation and what advice you would give THEM if they were in your shoes.
"my only other advice is to imagine someone else in your situation and what advice you would give THEM if they were in your shoes."
I'd like to second this. Lately, I've been happier because I've been doing what I know I would tell other people to do to be happier. I'm sure this could work for other problems.
In your 20's is young. It's very young. Know that and enjoy your youth.
Make the best choices about who you spend time with, who you influence and who influences you.
You "friend" sounds like an abuser. Saying he is wonderful in a thousand other ways does not make him less of an abuser.
I hope you'll get counseled by a licensed, qualified therapist you feel you can trust to coach you thru challenges like letting go of an abusive relationship.
I'm 43. I took self defense course that included verbal self defense from a woman who owned a martial arts school when I was in my mid 20's.
I employed skills and confidence building gained from that class and it has benefited all aspects of my life.
It was one of the best choices I've ever made.
good luck.
Look, it comes down to self-esteem.
You can either think of yourself as a person who deserves friends who respect her, care of her, and don't make little in vino veritas "jokes" about wanting to rape you and tell this asshole to go fuck himself...
... or you can continue to think of yourself as someone so defective that she'll take whatever friends come her way, and that any abusive behavior by friends is acceptable just so long as they will admit you're a friend. And the people who surround you will be the sort of people who are looking for exactly that sort of person: someone who will never stick up for themselves or tell them to fuck off, who will be so desperate to cling to this concept of "friendship" that they'll never question the value of it, and they'll continue to be validated in making rape jokes, and making thinly-veiled threats against you (which I'm sure if pressed he'd say was "flirting" because hey -- it's not like rape and sex are two different things, amiright?)
Do yourself a huge favor and start thinking of yourself as someone worthy of better friends. It's liberating... I can attest to this personally. The next time he does something like that, you don't say anything--you've wasted enough of your breath on him. You get up, and you leave. And you don't let him follow you, you don't speak to him. You don't take his phone calls. You delete his voicemails and text messages right out of your mailbox and set up a phone block. He'll try to be all nice and polite to try to win you back, but he's not worth it. Just cut him out of your life and stop thinking of him as your damn friend already because he's NOT.
You've given this guy 15 years of your life that you are not giving back and he's proven that he can throw you the most insignificant emotional bones to keep you around so that he can play sociopathic mind-games with you. Fuck. Him. All that time you spent being played with by him you could have been out making friends who actually respect you and treat you with a degree of compassion.
I certainly understand how a good person can make rape jokes, ignorant of how it effects the people around them, and ignorant of how it perpetuates rape culture.
However, your friend is not ignorant.
As you said, you've told him that rape jokes are triggering for you - not just once, but multiple times. Your friend knows how it effects you (and if he doesn't, he's not been listening), but has chosen to continue doing it. "I'm too old to change" is not an excuse. He has a responsibility to try, even if he can't do it instantaneously.
I think you should treat this the same way you would treat any friend who refuses to listen to you or who purposefully does things to hurt you.
Hey Lara
I've followed your posts and comments for a while because we seem to have been through similar experiences and had similar reactions in the aftermath.
I don't want to upset you, but I think what Mighty Ponygirl said is very important.
"Look, it comes down to self-esteem.
You can either think of yourself as a person who deserves friends who respect her, care of her, and don't make little in vino veritas "jokes" about wanting to rape you and tell this asshole to go fuck himself..."
This post, in combination with another post of yours where you were (rightfully) complaining about a (different?) guy that is friends with your rapist really makes me worry. In both posts you defend each guy as being a "really good guy" otherwise and feel a loyalty to them due to your long term friendship. Okay. I get that. However...
Your defenses of them sound remarkably like someone who defends their own abuser. "My husband hits me when he is drunk. He feels awful about it. I try to explain how I fear him when he drinks but he thinks I am overreacting. But in every other way, he is a wonderful man! He is an excellent father, and we get along so damn well. He is there for me when I am upset, he is truly kind...except when he drinks. But I love him so much, I can never leave him. He is a good man otherwise."
Honestly, what would you tell someone in that situation to do? Because while these guys may not be abusing you physically, their callous actions are clearly causing emotional damage. I understand not wanting to lose friends, especially ones whom you have known forever, but I don't think there is any advice we can give you until you realize that you deserve for your friends to respect you enough to not THREATEN TO RAPE YOU, trigger you, or remain friends with your rapist. As a bare minimum.
That was another guy who that other post was about and we are no longer friends.
I had a whole long post in response to you and Mighty Ponygirl that I just erased because I'm too upset now to respond.
@ Mighty Ponygirl: Yes, I do have self esteem issues that all started back when I was raped and have manifested in many many ways. Maybe I will talk about them when I'm not as upset. However, for you to insinuate that the only reason I'm friends with this guy is because I'm "someone so defective that she'll take whatever friends come her way, and that any abusive behavior by friends is acceptable just so long as they will admit you're a friend" was incredibly hurtful and incorrect.
I'm so sorry my comment came off that way. I wasn't trying to say that at all. What I intended to say with my comment is that you seem so loyal to your friends that you try to ignore their horrible, absolutely despicable, behaviors--not that you'll take anyone into your life that comes along!
I had several friends who were friends with the person who assaulted me. They actually went on a vacation with him 3-4 days after I told them what happened. One went, as he told me, for the free beer.
I still miss those guys. I think about them all the time. Its been over five years and I still miss them. I think they were wonderful people in certain respects, but those reasons were not enough to make me overlook their skewed views and their skewed values. I miss people I've been friends with who were great people but extremely callous to situations of sexual assault. Maybe now I could find a way to talk to them, but in the last several years I was too much of an emotional wreck.
I get it about losing friends. I lost all of mine save one as a result of my assault. I could not look past their attitudes and now I'm glad I didn't because I have friends who truly love and respect me.
This situation with your friend now worries me so much because "I'm going to rape you later" is not a joke, but a threat. You do realize that, right? He, knowing that you are a rape survivor, is threatening to rape you on a regular basis. This falls so far outside the lines of callousness and into really terrifying manipulation.
Sorry, but if you tolerate a "friend" and spend all sorts of time apologizing for his bad behavior, it means that you value this so-called friendship over your own well-being. And that means you value yourself very little, which means that when it comes down to it, you think that there's something "wrong" with you as opposed to this guy who you know is an asshole who pretty obviously fantasized about raping you.
I calls it like I sees it.
Every time I hear "I calls it like I sees it" I know someone is putting their self-satisfied perspective over someone else's feelings. Problem.
Plus, diagnoses-by-internetz of a self-esteem complex by putting someone else down (intended or not): also a problem.
Look, its possible for people to have awesome and terrible qualities at the same time. I speak from experience when I say emotionally damaging friendships generally need to be ended (and in my completely inexpert opinion, this one does), but that doesn't make that an easy decision and it doesn't mean staying in such a friendship amounts to self-hating masochism--or thinking of oneself as "defective" as you called it. This is a watered-down version of the "women who stay with their abuser are just stupid/weak/etc..." meme, which is just another way our culture has to inject victim blaming into every form of domestic abuse.
Dealing with an otherwise good friendship ruined by emotional terrorism is hard. Really fucking hard. You heard what this "friend" did and YOU don't care about him, but clearly, llevinso does, and the way you present your advice needs to respect that.
So, llevinso, as most people have noted: a true friend, no matter what, would NOT treat you like that. If he is as good of a friend as you say he is, he would see that and change his behavior. If he values you as much as you clearly value him, he WOULD see why this behavior is worth changing. If not, then continuing this friendship is unhealthy for you, and frankly, not good for him either.
dangerfield, you're right, this is internet diagnosis. For all I know, Lara's just sympathy trolling to try to get a bunch of feminists to poo-poo her and tell her to dump her friend already.
But I've dealt with enough people like Lara -- who want desperately to find some "middle way" that doesn't exist. Lara/llevinso gave her friend a chance to see the error in his ways and he chose to ignore that and continue to inflict mental anguish on her. There is no "middle way" to tell her that there are things she can do to magically make him a good friend. He's failed on an epic level at that task already. And she's back here writing a sob letter because she wants to stay friends with this guy who she really cares about but who clearly doesn't care about her. And that's just fucking sad to me and I'm going to point out that she needs to get a little more self esteem and realize that it's not that important to keep assholes like that in her life.
Yeah, it sucks to lose friends you've had for a long time. I've been through it, yes, even with close friends I've known for over a decade, but you know what, friends like this aren't really missed after a while. It's actually an incredible relief to get those people out of your life and at a safe distance. And a huge part of learning how to do that is to start placing value on yourself and not trying to find some "middle way" which is really just a code word for finding further ways to devalue and debase yourself because it's not like the other person is going to budge.
Don't look for a middle way. Look for "your way." Start valuing yourself.
No one is advocating for a middle way--like I said, in my inexpert opinion I agree that this is one friendship that ought to end. But if you've "dealt with enough people" like llevinso, you should know that instead of pathologizing the person you are pretending to help, you need to take their feelings and perspective into account in the way you present your advice. Llevinso is an adult that doesn't need to be shocked into action. She said your statements were hurtful and instead of reframing your point, you emphasized them.
She is herself advocating a middle way. She said very clearly that "unfriending him is not an option." She wants it both ways, which is a classic middle way approach, unless she wants to just sit here and have a bunch of feminists make cooing noises at her and validate that he's a jerk and she's right but golly gosh we can't actually do anything about it because unfriending isn't an option.... in which case, I have no patience for her.
Maybe berating someone who is looking for advice isn't the best or most sensitive way of helping someone. You don't need to be insulting and harsh to make your points. Lara admits to suffering from some low self esteem and you seem to be trying to make it even lower. This is not the other people like Lara; this is Lara and she does not deserve your frustration with other people.
@ Lara-I don't know what to add to what so many have said, but it is really hard to give someone up that you've known for so long, but the bottom line is that he is being disrespectful to you. As your friend if he was truly the kind of friend he and you think he is then a) he'd not make rape jokes knowing your history, but if he did then once you asked him to stop he would immediately and apologize for his insensitivity. 2) you shouldn't have to argue with him over this it should just be a request made from one friend to another...good friends do not need reasons to do things that are important one another.
My advice is to take a break...I know it's hard really hard, but if nothing else you will be able to gauge how much your friendship really means to him. If he is willing to change his attitude and behavior then revisit your break if you want to, but keep in mind that this man is a man who will not respect your request that he not make rape "jokes" (there are no such things imo). This isn't a huge thing to ask, but it means a lot to you. You deserve to have the request honored without any kind of drama. I hope it all works out.
That is exactly dangerfield's point. NO ONE is giving her advice to pursue that middle way it appears that she wants.
"...feminists make cooing noises at her and validate that he's a jerk and she's right but golly gosh we can't actually do anything about it because unfriending isn't an option"
I think pretty much everyone on here is telling her to make it an option.
She wrote the post with pre-loaded conditions: that this guy was too good of a friend to send packing, and that he's really upsetting her with this behavior. She came pre-loaded to say basically that she wasn't going to do anything about it. I held her feet to the fire, because I've had far too much experience with the "but I WUB HIM" variety of pity party to play along.
Excuse me, your contempt is showing. If that's all the respect you can muster for someone within our feministing community asking the rest of this community for advice, then why did you offer any?
Snark has its place on this blog, but that place is NOT counseling victims of emotional abuse.
I have to agree with you MPTG. This is no time to coddle. She needs to get the fuck away from this weirdo permanently & immediately. Who says that sort of thing? Even to a non-survivor. Demented.
This x100 000 000
My personal experiences with this kind of behaviour make me VERY inclined to think that this is the best suggestion.
with friends like that you don't need enemies-
you need a self defense course.
Seriously
take a course that teaches both verbal and physical self defense and it it ever comes to it, defend yourself with all you've got.
If someone said to me, "I'll rape you later" I would respond with, "I'll kill or maim you first."
I would end communication with that person.
It's not a joke.
There are other people in the world, good quality people who wont make awful statements like that under ANY circumstances, let alone yours.
strength be yours.
I think you are experiencing an internal struggle between seeing your friend as he is and seeing the idealized version you want him to be.
Lara,
You're saying he's a great guy, but what you've actually described is someone who knows full well that you've been raped but persists in making insensitive comments (I won't even call them rape "jokes", because "jokes" are supposed to be funny.) Furthermore, you say you've told him several times that you don't like him saying these things to you, but he persists in doing it anyway. That doesn't sound like a lot of respect for you and what you have to say about the subject. Or much respect for your boundaries.
If it's been addressed repeatedly and he hasn't made any effort to refrain from saying those things to you, then I can't say I see it changing anytime soon. Maybe cutting off the friendship is the only thing that will get through to him. If not, it will at least give you the peace of mind of not having to hear chilling remarks like "I'm going to rape you later" from a supposed "friend".
Your "friend" sounds abusive. Even if he's been around so long that he seems like a brother, he's not worth it. Unfortunately, some brothers are abusive dickwads.
Brotherly love aside, he's continuously saying things and making jokes that he knows hurt you, and alcohol is not an excuse. He's treating you with little/no respect.
If you remain friends with him, he's going to keep treating you like crap (barring some great miracle). If you cut him off, then at least there's a (vague/slight/tiny) chance he'll figure out that maybe he's done something wrong.
He's like a brother like Cain was to Abel. I am a brother. I've had a difficult and sometimes mean relationship with my sister over the years. She's never wanted or needed me as a protector since she was about six. But if someone treated her like that I'd kill him.
It doesn't sound like this guy has any intention of changing his language or behavior, and after 8 years of trying the Poster obviously isn't going to change it for him. Maybe some other person or event in his life will help him wise-up down the road, but she's going to be in for a lifetime of misery and rape jokes if she sticks around and waits for that to happen. People do change, but any given individual probably won't.
Lara,
This must be incredibly difficult for you. To have someone who is so important to you, who you trust and love, repeatedly and against your stated wishes, say the most upsetting thing he can possibly think of, and then pass it off as a joke, as if somehow *you* are the one at fault for being *too sensitive.*
I hear you when you say you won't end the relationship, so I won't tell you to do that. But I would like to suggest two things: take a long period where you don't interact with him at all. If you want, you can explain to him why you're doing this, but you aren't obligated to. Most of all don't let him talk you out of it- this is not his decision to make.
Second, I recommend you call 800-656-HOPE. They will understand that you are not in a position to permanently end the friendship (at least not right now), and they will help you figure out the best thing for you *as you are right now*. They will probably be able to refer you to a local therapist, if you're not already seeing one, who can help you think through this issue.
The most important thing, as I see it, is to let NO ONE persuade you that his comments don't matter. They matter, they're harmful, and you need to protect yourself from them. The people at 800-656-HOPE can help you figure out how to do that.
This guy is not your friend.
this conversation must be really triggering for her (lara). so i wouldn't really go on the attack, it's not going to help at all to attack her friend and make her feel like she can't have these conflicted feelings about him.
lara, obviously, for us on the outside, you have to understand that we are trying to defend you in this situation because we aren't hearing from your friend. we're going with our gut instinct, which is to protect you from harm. please understand no one here is judging your decision (whatever it may be), instead we're just offering insight into what it looks like from *our* perspective, which is obviously on the outside looking in. a lot of people here have been through similar things and may really have something to offer. so take what we say or leave it, we just want to help. i apologize if anyone has been a jerk *hug*.
I admit I only skimmed, but jeez. Its one thing to tell a "joke" like "that test was so hard it raped me" and its quite another to flat out say "I'm going to rape you later." Did he say this kind of thing before you were raped? Frankly, I'd have told him years ago that that type of comment freaks me out too much and I just can't feel safe around someone who might say that kind of thing at any time.
I'm not a fan of rape jokes in general but I think its really different and far creepier to specifically direct the "jokes" at you.
Dear Lara,
This behavior is extremely abusive. Even if it were my *brother* who did this to me, and I had already told him to stop numerous times, I would cut off contact.
I am *very* close to my family, too.
Please, please consider the advice you are getting here to dump this friendship.
"I'm going to slit your throat while you're sleeping" is the first response that came to my mind. I wonder if he'd find it so damn funny if he woke up to find a knife on his pillow. (Not condoning a threatening response, but does he not have any idea that this is essentially what he's saying to you?)
99% of the time does not excuse that despicable 1%, IMO. He sounds like an abuser. Just because it's "only" psychological doesn't make it any better. That you said this behaviour has become more frequent just rings more alarm bells for me.
I was involved with an abusive guy, and in between times when he "forgot" he could be pretty damn great too. But those honeymoon periods kept on getting shorter and shorter.
I don't think you can make him change; he certainly doesn't seem to see any reason to. I don't think that you are being the best to yourself that you can be by remaining involved with someone who can "forget" he repeatedly assaults you.
I realize that "just DTMFA" is easy advice for those of us outside your relationship to give - I stayed with my abuser for 5 years, in the face of comments from many concerned friends - but please believe that there are many people who will support you and back you up... whenever you are ready
If unfriending him is "not an option" then you're going to have to deal with the fact that he is not going to stop doing this no matter what you say.
Your option is to stay with a person who hurts you, or say goodbye.
He's had years to break the habit and he's still threatening, jokingly, to rape you? Either he doesn't care about hurting you, can't conceive of himself hurting you (not matter what you tell him) or enjoys hurting you. Whichever, he's going to keep doing it as long as he's part of your life.
He knows you've been raped, he knows it upsets you to joke about being raped, and he keeps joking about raping you.
He doesn't respect you, and he knows you'll take it. He's taking advantage of you and the fact that he knows you always wind up taking him back.
I bet a lot of guys are fun to be with when sober but total jerks and abusive when drunk.
Aleks is right; he'll continue to do this as long as he's part of your life. As long as you allow him to.
He knows you've been raped, he knows it upsets you to joke about being raped, and he keeps joking about raping you.
He doesn't respect you, and he knows you'll take it. He's taking advantage of you and the fact that he knows you always wind up taking him back.
I bet a lot of guys are fun to be with when sober but total jerks and abusive when drunk.
Aleks is right; he'll continue to do this as long as he's part of your life. As long as you allow him to.
FYI, even if he’s drunk, he knows what he’s doing. Unless he’s so extremely drunk that he doesn’t remember what he says or does, in which case, he’s got another big problem.
But it’s obvious you still want a relationship with him, so if you intend on taking him back into your life, could you maybe use peer pressure to get him to stop? Such as telling his parents, family members, and/or friends what he says and how it upsets you? MRAs hate this “shaming” because they don’t want to have to feel like they’re accountable to anyone for their despicable actions. I say, so what? Sometimes people listen to others more than to those they are closest to. And if you’re doing something that everyone in the world would consider horrible, then shamed you should be.
If others know and tell him how stupid he is for saying those things, they may be successful in embarrassing him enough that he stops it. It’s worth a try.
FYI, even if he’s drunk, he knows what he’s doing. Unless he’s so extremely drunk that he doesn’t remember what he says or does, in which case, he’s got another big problem.
But it’s obvious you still want a relationship with him, so if you intend on taking him back into your life, could you maybe use peer pressure to get him to stop? Such as telling his parents, family members, and/or friends what he says and how it upsets you? MRAs hate this “shaming” because they don’t want to have to feel like they’re accountable to anyone for their despicable actions. I say, so what? Sometimes people listen to others more than to those they are closest to. And if you’re doing something that everyone in the world would consider horrible, then shamed you should be.
If others know and tell him how stupid he is for saying those things, they may be successful in embarrassing him enough that he stops it. It’s worth a try.
I really, really wish I could delete duplicate posts. Sorry.
This seems to be one of those topics that everyone has a strong opinion on, and each opinion is highly colored by the person's individual experience. I'm sorry you're going through this with your friend. That really sucks.
Clearly, it's not okay that he continues making comments that upset you. Clearly, you care about him deeply and he earned that love and trust through your many years of friendship. It seems like a friend who is that close would want to avoid hurting you. Some questions: Why do you think he keeps making comments that hit you where you are most vulnerable? What has he done to make the other parts of your friendship worthwhile? Do you feel that you receive as much from him as you give to him?
Lastly, I'd like to pass on some advice my mama gave me. You're welcome to take it or leave it: Decide how much crap you're willing to put up with, and after you've hit that point, stop putting up with it.
Good luck. I hope this resolves in the best possible way.
You could also try showing him this thread.
That sounds like the best advice to me, in a lot of ways.
Ah man... I had a friend who was always doing this. I even wrote about it on here. We're no longer friends, not because of that, but because he seemed not to care about me outside of having a beer and watching TV. I thought he was a real friend, but he wasn't. I really did love him deeply, and I miss a lot of things, but I also don't miss a lot of other things. Now I don't have to deal with his rape jokes and sexism.
Ewwwwww.
This man has serious issues, and needs to stop abusing women for his own pleasure. This is very sick behavior. He's threatening you (and probably other women, too) with violence, triggering you, and knows full well what he is doing. He is enjoying the power trip. If he "doesn't get it," he needs therapy to understand why he thinks women deserve to be treated that way, and/or why it's not a big deal to do this. He also needs to face why he thinks he shouldn't and/or can't change, in respect for half the human race including his close friends. It sounds like he "values" women as props / lesser beings.
I am triggered and disturbed by your post. I strongly urge you to end the friendship and explain why you are ending it, in writing, so that there is a chance that someday he can become a better man. In these situations, he does not act like your friend AT ALL. He acts abusive. Rather, someone who is your friend would be the person who overhears him and throws him out / worse. At this point, I urge you to be a friend to yourself, and throw him out of your life.
How about this for a response?
"I'm going to tell the police you said that. I'm also going to give them the dates and times of all the other times you've said that. And then you can explain to the District Attorney how it was all just a joke, and not part of a pattern of escalating abusive behavior that warrants police intervention.
"I'm also going to tell your boss. And your mother. And your sisters. And your college professors. And going to make it my standing status on Facebook. Your entire community is going to know that you like to make that sort of joke.
"Because hey, it's nothing to be ashamed of ... is it?"
This is a very good suggestion. Not for the shaming - but for the evidence record.
I would suggest making a notarized statement, giving it ( sealed) to a lawyer or other very respectable/trustworthy person, and keeping notes on any escalation of this behavior.
That way, if he does someday carry though on his intent to rape ( be it you or someone else) at least there will be evidence that you are not making things up.
Re: instrumentjamlord's comment. YES! YES! THIS!
This kind of reminds me I dated a guy for about 2 years. We'd been friends for a long time previously. He was a really great guy in a lot of ways - we shared interests, he surprised me with little presents, he remembered all of my preferences and cooked me amazing meals, he was kind, my family and friends loved him, and, oh yeah, he beat me up and called me names every time he got drunk. But he didn't drink very often, so I didn't think it was a big deal. And then I took a course in self defense (verbal/physical) and realised that, "oh shit, my perfect boyfriend is actually abusing me." And I thought that it couldn't be true, because he was such a great guy 90% of the time. (And when he was nice, he was SO nice.) But eventually I realised that our relationship was gradually running me into the ground. I dumped his ass 5 years ago now and my life has gotten so much better since then! Do I miss the nice guy I used to date? Sure. But that isn't enough to make the abuse worth tolerating.
I also found this post triggering and disturbing. Poster, please realise that this man is either incapable of understanding the difference between a threat and a joke, or he is not joking when he tells you that he's going to rape you later.
Oh and I almost forgot to mention, I find that the best way to tell if someone is a scumbag is if, when describing them and their behaviour in the most flattering light to someone who has never met them, they still end up sounding like a scumbag. You obviously love this guy.
Like kandela said, show him this thread if he STILL doesn't get it. I agree with what others have said in that there's something wrong with him. He may have been your friend for 15 years, but unfortunately, it looks like it took something AWFUL like rape happening to you for his true colors to be revealed.
Then again, you can try some of the comebacks mentioned if he says that to you again.
I don't want to direct this comment at you personally, but it seems to me that women somehow learn that they're supposed to put up with so much more shit from people - ESPECIALLY in relationships with men - than any normal person should ever put up with in a relationship. Really, I'd say this is a situation where you should not feel bad or guilty to put your foot down. In my experience, women develop habits of making excuses for the abusive behavior of friends and boyfriends without even realizing it. Women never learn what constitutes abuse in a relationship - or how to set thresholds or boundaries for behavior - and are in fact encouraged to make concessions for men for numerous dumb (and often sexist) reasons ("Men just tend to be more callous, men aren't as sensitive, men don't express their feelings in the same way as we do, blah blah"). But please do recognize how much of your post in fact does constitute numerous excuses and caveats on his behalf.
So, I'm going to tell you, honestly, I would not put up with this behavior, and you don't have to put up with this behavior. Again, a real friend wouldn't feed you shit about "it's too hard for me to change, boo-hoo." No. I'm sorry. That's bullshit. If you care about someone, you respect their feelings and try to modify your behavior to whatever extent is appropriate when they tell you honestly that you're hurting them. Anyone who would fail to do otherwise I would not call a "friend." Rather, I'd call him/her "fucked up."
I'd also like to add, because I realize you most likely will not and perhaps cannot imagine him as an abuser, that victims of abuse RARELY DO imagine their abusers as "abusive." Abusers always ARE "really nice people" 90% of the time. They always DO have "really good qualities" 90% of the time. My abusive mother always DOES reiterate that she loves me every time I see her. She always does apologize for the hateful things she says to me in a rage and the "little" things she does to hurt me. She did apologize for pulling my hair and calling me a whore on prom night. A past controlling abusive boyfriend always was very kind and generous - even some of my family members described him as a "nice guy." They wouldn't have flinched to see me marry him. He was emotionally abusive.
This is what abuse means. It is, first and foremost, manipulation. And I sense that's what you're getting from this guy.
People do support you. It's always hard to break away from a relationship that you've invested so much time in, or from a person you feel you know so well, inside and out, and are so close to, and who knows you to your bones. But don't let all of this - the time invested, the closeness - blind you to the manipulation. You need to (1) clearly lay out your boundaries to him just one more time, and (2) if he hears you but doesn't care, I'd strongly advise you, like other commenters on the thread, to take a break from the relationship, temporarily to start, if you'd prefer.
And it may do you good to spend your break time on new activites/classes or volunteering: really, anything where you can meet other people. Because there are lots of good people out there - perhaps even new close friends - waiting for you to meet them, and I can guarantee that you'll be glad you did.
This guy isn't so naive that he just doesn't see the harm in it. I think he's knowingly hurting you. The "I'm going to rape you later" thing isn't a joke, it sounds more like a threat. It's blaming the victim, like the "she got raped, so she must be a slut, so I can do it now" type mentality that's so common, and it's just unforgivable.
If the guy doesn't get some common sense, like, NOW, I would say you should just kick him out of your life for good.
And I'm not saying he doesn't have a good, or even a great side to him, but he doesn't respect you and for whatever reason he thinks that because you were raped once, it must not be so bad for it to happen again. Seriously, this guy scares me and I would take it as a full-fledged threat and get outta there.
I've actualy been thinking about this for the last day or so, and I still can't thinko f any context in which a comment like "I'm going to rape you" could be taken as a joke. The closest I can think of is if you were going to play competitive sports and he said that in the same sense as "I'm going to kill you at tennis later," which isn't exactly a joke but can be light hearted. But it didn't sound like he was saying it that way.
Can you explain the context of this "joke"? I mean, I really don't get it. Is there some way that its funny?
I guess sometimes its funny to be slightly mean. I had a roommate who used to jump out at me from dark rooms yelling boo and it would make me scream like crazy. It was funny because it wasn't serious and afterwards I would laugh too. It wouldn't have been funny if I had been previously attacked in such a manner, or if such behavior often led to serious attacks against people like me.
First of all, you can cry on my shoulder, and i'll 'coo at you' all you want.
You behaved appropriately, so don't rush to apologize or make amends. This could be the turning point at whch he may finally get the message, and if not maybe he's just so brainwashed with misogyny that he needs to hear at length and in detal what it means to you when he does this. You might want to try that in an email or letter, perhaps. whatever works for you.
But, from your post he doesn't sound respectful and does sound misogynistic, and you deserve a best friend who is truly respectful and doesn't cross your boundaries.
You really should remove toxic people from your life, regardless of how long you have known them or if they are family.
It's your life, you only get one, so surround yourself by people that support you, and LISTEN to you.
Ah, the old emotional abuse "double-whammy": First he gets to threaten you, then he gets to criticize you by saying, "Hey, where's your sense of humor?"
In my opinion, a guy could only consider a rape threat a "joke" if he doesn't really see anything *that* wrong with rape in the first place. The fact that he knows how much it hurts you and still refuses to stop suggests to me that he doesn't have too much concern for your well-being. His behavior is beyond insensitive. It's cruel and sadistic. And -- bear in mind -- he seems to be having fun doing that. And if he truly is unable to stop making these threats -- like he says he is -- then he has a clear problem with impulse control. These qualities of his make me *very* concerned for your safety, not to mention your well-being, especially since you go out drinking with him.
I mean, do you really think he makes repeated rape threat "jokes" because he's *never* fantasized about raping you?
It sure hurts to lose someone you consider a close friend -- and it hurts more if you realize they never really were who you thought they were in the first place. I hope you ultimately do what's in your best interests, and I wish you the best.
P.S. Isn't the goal of telling a joke to *entertain* or *amuse* the person to whom you're telling it?
In many cases the point of a joke is to bully the listener. This is obviously one of those cases.
When I read this, I nearly spewed my diet Coke all over my monitor.
This 'friend' of yours is no friend at all. You seem like a strong woman who is having a difficult time coming to terms with a disloyal friend. At least that's how I'm reading it.
This guy doesn't deserve to be friends with you. Don't grace him with your presence anymore--he's had his chance to have an awesome friend like you, and he's blown it. Many, many times.
You loved this guy like a brother, which makes his betrayal of your feelings that much worse. Keep your strength and loyalty for yourself and yourself alone--he is not worthy of it.
I'm not sure if anything can be done for /him/--but that isn't your worry. It isn't your job to fix him. Though certainly there are many good suggestions should you wish to educate him further.
I'm sorry. The dissolution of a friendship is never easy, no matter how necessary it might be.
My thoughts are with you.
i think I would see less of him a choose
better male friends to be close too.
Just my opinion,but thats what I'd do.
The crucial things he clearly doesn't understand are:
No-one will think any less of him if he stops telling these 'jokes'.
It costs him nothing to say something different or to just keep his mouth shut.
Just as people learned to stop saying 'rad!' or 'bogus!' all the time after these words went out of fashion in 90's playgrounds, so can people very easily stop saying things they know are hurtful to others.
Somehow, he is able to (I'm guessing) refrain from saying horribly racist things to non-white people or hideously anti-semitic things to those of the Jewish faith. (Whether he tells such 'jokes' when not in their company is another matter, but let's keep this simple for now.) If he can easily work out that doing those things would be offensive and likely to get an extremely hurt, angry response, why does he find it so difficult to work out that making light of rape in front of someone he KNOWS to be a rape survivor is hurtful, demeaning, triggering and every bit as wrong as the other two examples? Does he think that being your friend makes it okay? The way he's acting suggests that he may be using your long-time friendship as assurance that you'll forgive and forget every time he does this, letting him off the hook.
Does he know that every time he says such things, you may not be the only one who hears and is hurt?
Is his personal lazy bubble more important than your right to enjoy an evening without having your experience dragged back to your mind and RIDICULED?
My ex used to make such jokes all the time. I'm not a survivor, but they made me uncomfortable and I told him on several occasions that his remarks weren't funny. Neither were DV ones. He didn't listen for ages, and I felt useless, worthless because I couldn't get this simple message across. You're going to be beating yourself up about this forever if this continues. Try showing your 'friend' this: http://fugitivus.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/a-woman-walks-into-a-rape-uh-bar/. It's the best piece I've read about this subject so far. If your friend tells you something like it's 'too long, can't be bothered' or does read it and still copmplains that he's 'just joking, lighten up' then that should make it as plain as day that he doesn't care for your feelings at all on the matter. Cut ties and move on in this case. Even if you still care for him, you shouldn't have to be sticking about in such a one-sided friendship.
Rad and Bogus are out of fashion? Dang! LOL!
Seriously, this is unbelievable to me. I don't think I've ever even heard a rape joke in my life and I spend a lot of time at poker tables with mostly men who don't seem to be filtering in terms of jokes. Is it possible to have never heard a rape joke? Actually, I did read one on this site (Family Guy blog). I'm REALLY shocked that llevinso's "friend" could be so, what's the word, abusive. Yeah, I think everyone who used that term up-thread was right. It is abusive. WTF? I'm still stunned. Girl, you got to kick that prick to the curb. But quick! Sounds like he has some serious emotional issues. Creepy.
Your own feelings and self-esteem are obviously the most important things at stake. But if you have trouble setting those above your friendship: this is a guy you love? Value? Whose intelligence you generally respect? Then you're not doing him any favours in the long run by letting him get away with being an asshole.
Unfortunately, the decision is not up to you, it's up to him. And it's a shame if he forces you to cut him out of your life, temporarily or permanently, because of his continued assholery. But keep in mind that people can and do change, especially if confronted when still young (and yes, if he's the same age as you, he's still young) by the fact that their behaviour has real consequences. Strange as it may seem, cutting off ties actually means giving him the chance to be a better person, whether with you, later on, or with other women in his life. As Chai Latte says, it isn't your job to "fix him", but I do believe we all have certain responsibilities towards the people we love (AS WELL AS towards ourselves).
And I think it's not just self-destructive but insulting to treat men, individually or as a group, as if they were congenitally incapable of "getting it". Sometimes it takes a while, and sometimes it takes some pain. On both sides.
have you ever thought about these "jokes" in a different context?
what if he said "i'm going to stab you later" or "i'm going to murder you later" or "i'm going to punch you in the face later"?
would THAT be ok? would you put up with that? because really, it's all the same. what he's saying to you IS a threat. it's NOT funny, and he's being a child for not taking responsibility for this. (an offense to children, really)
do your other friends threaten you with violence? would you let them?
try to stay away from him. it will be hard, but the more you do it, the easier it will get. and every time you think he's not that bad, reread what you posted here and remember what you feel like every time he says those disgusting things.
good luck! you deserve to feel safe with your friends!