Is it really anti feminist to criticise other women?
Again and again on feministing, members leaving comments that are critical of an individual woman (usually someone in the public sphere) are critised for being anti feminist. Does being a feminist really mean that we should never criticise another woman for the way she lives her life or the choices she makes?
Of course many criticisms of woman in the public sphere are anti feminist. But I don't believe that this means that all criticisms of individual woman are anti feminist.
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It is not anti-feminist to criticize a woman.
It is anti-feminist to criticize a woman for being female, exhibiting gendered traits, her appearance or anything else that is inherently sexist. These things are not appropriate when criticizing men either.
I agree. It's also anti-feminist to criticize men in a similar fashion. Remember that feminism is about gender equality - not just for women.
Jackie said that. Would you like to beat the off-topic and deceased equine some more though?
Was it really necessary to be an asshole about this? Pointless. Way to (make a potential derail worse) prevent a derail. Good job.
Rule of thumb:
It's not anti-feminist to criticize a woman's actions. It's anti-feminist to call her a cunt.
we must remember that it is only antifeminist to refer to a woman as a cunt because it demeans the word and reduces a woman to her body part again. The word itself is fine in the proper context
what about calling a guy a "dick" ? Is that sexist?
Yes, but in the opposite direction. Men (USUALLY, generalizing here) identify with their penis. Calling him a dick simply is the same as calling him a bully; it affirms his superiority by acknowledging that he's stronger. It is counter-productive to insult ANYONE by naming their genitals.
Excellent points. Obviously it is never anti-feminist to criticize a woman for legitimate reasons. But as Jackie noted, criticizing a woman in a gendered way is anti-feminist. The obvious subtext is that people have a tendency to resort to gendered criticism when they criticize women, and this makes people sensitive (and sometimes overly sensitive, in cases where people cry anti-feminism for criticizing, say, Sarah Palin's career decisions).
Social justice is (relatively) easy when conflict isn't involved, but the true measure of racial/gendered/abled egalitarianism is how well people treat the human differences of a person they may individually be in conflict with.
Too often feminists find themselves slut-shaming women they don't agree with in the same way that the rest of society falls back on widely-held prejudices to win conflicts.
You know, for all that people are stepping up here to say "of course one may criticize a woman without it being anti-feminist"...I have to say, like the OP, my experience here on Feministing has been rather different. Take a look at any given thread on sex work and sex workers to watch it in action. Let someone say they feel sex work is unfeminist, and watch the pile-on commence. Same happened in the makeup threads last month; I said I felt wearing makeup was vehemently not a feminist act, and I got piled-on for daring to criticize other women's choices.
Well, makeup and sex work are the icons of the fourth wave, as far as I can tell. You can criticize anything but that.
In other words, I've had the same experience here.
PS. You're right. It was shitty of me to jump like that and I'm sorry. I've been on a hair trigger lately with respect to "what about the men" comments, but that doesn't excuse my behavior.
Isn't there a big difference between make-up and sex work, however?
If we're going to be critical of pornographers (see porn directors, sellers and users) for their contribution toward the way society view women, why can't we be critical of those directly involved in the selling of sex acts?
The biggest difference between sex work and make-up, for me, is that make-up is about celebrating one's own style of beauty and does not affect anyone. On the other hand, however, sex work directly feeds into society's already negative view of women's bodies.
There is a huge difference between criticizing a certain action, and thinking a woman is a piece of shit for engaging in such action, or even thinking such action should be illegal.
As an example: I would be fine with anti-choicers if they did not conduct themselves in ways that are harmful to women. As feminists, when we speak out against certain actions, it's not because the person's gender that is the problem(although in some cases, because of power dynamics, a person's gender does matter),but rather, how that person, regardless of gender, affects others through his or her own action.
I would say, however, that we need to take other factors into account. While we are fair and impartial in our criticism of a specific action (sex work as an example), we must remember that we don't fully understand the situation from that person's perspective. In short, just like we advocate that abortion is not a decision that each person makes lightly and without thoughts, we must apply the same logic to sex work. Rather than focusing on how that person continually feeds into sexism, we must engage ourselves in the kinds of activism that will allow women and men to make choices that are more feministic.
In short: got beef with sex work? Rather than just slamming sex workers, we ought to work to ensure a more economically-equal society, so that women do not have to revert to sex work.
Until the world is equal, our work is to find other avenues so that both women and men can have the chances of living a truly more feministic life.
After all, slamming a woman for being a sex worker certainly does not help her get out of the situation (if her situation requires her to engage in sex work) - nor does it change anything. We can criticize all we want, but in the end, it's our action that truly matters.
In short: got beef with sex work? Rather than just slamming sex workers, we ought to work to ensure a more economically-equal society, so that women do not have to revert to sex work. Until the world is equal, our work is to find other avenues so that both women and men can have the chances of living a truly more feministic life.
Normally I would agree with you, but I've seen quite a few posts wherein women were claiming that it was a choice they would have made anyway, so this argument doesn't really apply.
your definition of all things feminist and un feminist is not the last word on feminism- deal with that.
Also, be grateful you have not been at the point in your life (yet anyway) where your choices are so limited that sex work is a good option.
Now, please feel free to insult me as you will.
I despise comments like yours, but, appreciate being hated by closed minded people (as you present yourself to be).
peace out and red lipstick kisses!
This is an important issue and it deserves a very delicate touch:
Women like Ann Coulter, Phyliss Schlafly (sic), Caitlin Flannigan, Sarah Palin, actively work to undermine women's rights.
Now, there is a dimension where you have to recognize that the patriarchy has rewarded these women and they know which side their bread is buttered on, and it's a lot easier to get a pat on the head from the male power structure by being obedient than it is to get a kick in the teeth for pointing out the bullshit.
Obviously when combating these sorts of women, it's important to not become a hypocrite. Your problem with this woman lies with what's going on between her ears, not between her legs, and any insults that are misogynist and reductionist have no rhetorical merit. But truth be told, I've been in the feminist community a long time and when a self-proclaimed feminist uses a word like "bitch" or "cunt" to describe someone like Coulter, they're usually a total greenhorn soon to have a rude awakening, or they're just a troll posing as a feminist and trying to whip up a frenzy. So I don't lose a lot of sleep over that.
This sounds suspiciously straw-feminist. I can't remember a single instance of people saying you can't criticize women, let alone an epidemic.
As long as you don't get your knickers in a twist if she criticizes you right back.
I don't think it's inherently anti-feminist to criticize another person for their choices if that person happens to be a woman. As long as you are criticizing their choices as a PERSON, and not a woman. Also, depending on the criteria used for your criticisms, it might make you a judgmental jerk. Of course, that's a differently kettle of fish completely.
I understand we all have different things we personally hold to be feminist or anti-feminist... --But the more I read, and the more I talk to other feminists, I'm really starting to think a lot more would get done if we'd stop criticizing each other for being bad feminists/women/females/womyn/what-the-fuck-ever for wearing make-up/dressing like a lumber jack/staying home/choosing careers...etc etc etc so forth.
"[...] don't get your knickers in a twist [...]"
Did you choose this expression to be deliberately ironic?
But more to the point, you're right. Anything a woman does is feminist so long as she chooses it. And while we're at it, we should point out that just about all men are feminists too, because they are just doing what feels right to them within the confines of their socialisation. It's all good, war's won, let's go home.
I seriously doubt that was the point at all. Maybe it's more along the lines of respect the choices women make, especially as sexism is socially ingrained and belittling women for certain choices, especially when those choices are evaluated by the women, they make. The problem isn't women who choose to wear make-up or high heels, it's an industry telling them them they have too. So, instead of hating on women who wear make-up, especially when they weigh the decisions, doesn't do anything to attack the beauty industry and standard it's created. Once we attack the problem's root, who cares if some decides to wear make-up and heels? So yeah, instead of criticizng indiviual women for their choices, especially those the analyze and still decide to do, attack the societal problems. Attacking women for wearing make-up is just as bad as attacking them for not, one questions their feminism the other their feminity and professionalism.
I see that a lot, women being criticized for practicing religion, being mothers/housewives,etc. Yes women have to sacrifice, but if a woman enjoys adheringto certain aspects of woman/beautiful, just how much of herself is she going to be forced to give up in a show of feminist solidarity that doesn't actually accomplish anything? Women feeling compelled to be someting they are not rarely works out well.
I am not a troll. For example, in the article about a woman who chose to have a child in her 60's through IVF they were several comments this woman was criticised for making this choice. They were heavily criticised by other peopel leaving comments. Many of these said that as feminists we shouldn't be criticising other women for the personal choices they make. I have read similar comments on other threads. I do think it is okay to criticide other women for the choices they make, although obviously it would ber very anti feminist to be misogynist in any criticisms.
Sarah Palin is a perfect example.
It's great to see a woman in such a powerful position, it sucks that it was a woman like her.
I didn't agree with any of her policies. (Very feminist to actaully read how politicians vote and where they stand by the way)
But I would step in when people would make bullshit comments like: "How is she going to be vice-president and raise a family at the same time?"
Ugh!
Would it be wrong to criticise Margaret Thatcher for explicitly using her sexuality to control cabinet? She acted as a mix of matron/mother to get her own way, with favourites, thus extracting child-like behaviour from cabinet.
I'm cautious when I critisize women because I feel like other people will take it in a sexist way. For example, when people talk shit about britney spears and call her a crazy bitch or a disgusting whore or something, I may not think too highly of her but I won't say anything negative because I don't want to join in their shamefest.