Dear Feministing commenters, posters, moderators, and everyone else:
A while back, you may remember, a great many trans readers decided to boycott this site. At the time, I had only been reading Feministing for a few months, and only been commenting for a couple of weeks. I decided to stay, believing that I was doing some good here.
Every time someone said “Oh, I never knew that could happen!” or “I never thought of it that way before!” I felt like “Well, at least someone has learned something new, and maybe will take a broader and more accepting view in the future.” That was encouraging, made me feel like it was worth staying.
However, this effort has been exhausting me emotionally (which is why I have not commented on any of the most recent things here).
The community within the “comments” section has fostered argument as opposed to discussion, repetition as opposed to new insights. Repeated failure on the part of many to even read the existing comments (or sometimes even the entire original post!) is staggering, and leads to constant pointless derailing.
The lack of understanding of even basic concepts like “privilege” makes discussion next to impossible. Privilege is not a contest, or a game of golf in which the lowest score wins. It is not something you can ever get away from or get out of. Neither is cultural bias – and yet, when a commenter is called on such things (often in an accusing way) what most often ensues is not insight but bickering about whose privilege is bigger than whose.
The transphobia alone is enough to drive one mad, particularly since most of the concepts (ie: listening to those with personal experience, not disregarding that experience, not using tone arguments, not placing personal comfort/bigotry above the safety and dignity of another human being, respecting unique individual identity and not resorting to stereotypes or “medicalizing” the experiences of an entire group) apply equally to women, to minority ethnic or religious groups, to homosexuality. The rules of dignity and non-bigotry don't start and end with specific groups who get to be deemed “normal.” They apply to all people.
Is this how you treat those you do not understand by default? By silencing, analyzing, and accusing on the basis of speculation? By dismissing and belittling our experiences without listening to us or bothering to take a second look? By accepting stereotypes and scare tactics at face value, and, even when there is no evidence or reason behind them, still saying “Well, it MIGHT be true, somehow” as a justification to keep the “others” out of your space?
Bigotry is believing that some people are “OK” while others are not. Becoming a liberal, accepting society is not about slowly adding oppressed groups to the “OK” category while still allowing oppression of everyone else. This happens when people think they know what all the issues are, what all the people groups out there are like, and then encounter a new group they've never encountered.
I have neglected other blogs where I could have been doing more good and getting less transphobic nonsense by devoting my time to this site. I have exhausted myself emotionally by attempting to constantly counter the bigotry and transphobia which inevitably emerges whenever transsexuals are brought up in conversation. No more. As I have seen little evidence of overall change, greater acceptance, or even basic education (or even, for the most part, an overall willingness to learn) I am leaving Feministing, and joining the boycott.
-Zyfron
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Hey Zyfron - is there any way I could get in touch with you outside of Feministing? My email is choppery at gmail dot com.
Hey Zyfron--
It was tough for me to put this community post up. I am definitely sad to see you leave.
As someone who ends up trying to moderate many of these threads (since I write about gender often), I've spent a lot of time trying to decide how to moderate these discussions. I'm not sure there is a way, without much censorship, that would produce the kind of conversations I would love to see. At least I have yet to find it. The truth is there is a lot of ignorance and lack of agreement on issues of gender in the feminist community, offline and online. That's part of the reason I want to write about it.
That's not to say you should feel forced to stay or participate in these conversations. I just want to let you and others know that I recognize these comment conversations are tough and I wish I had the moderator's magic answer as to how to make them better.
Miriam, I want to preface this by saying, probably unnecessarily, that I respect your work a lot and I've loved a lot of your writing. This is not meant to be a personal attack on you, nor is it directed specifically at you. It's solely about the Feministing community and behavior (or lack thereof) of the editors.
a) if lots of people are saying hurtful, offensive things, it might necessitate a lot of "censorship". they should not get to dominate the conversation just because their numbers make mods feel guilty about cracking down. I mean, if mods genuinely exercised as much concern about vulnerable voices being swallowed up as they do about dominant voices being censored there would not be an issue here. this is always being framed in terms of not "what can we do on trans threads for the benefit of trans people" but "what can we do on trans threads that doesn't step on those myriad cis toes". I'm pretty sure the pain a cis person would experience in being moderated for their offensively ignorant or derailing comment cannot compare to the exhaustion and hurt experienced by the trans commenters who diligently and wearily take on your moderating job for you (but without the commensurate power), trying to hold the fort down.
b) opening a trans-only thread to ask trans people at feministing what kind of moderation might help them just may give you a touch of that "magic" answer (which is, in fact, not magic, just hard work, transparency, accountability and respect). If you don't know the answer you could just, you know, ask. It would also help if everyone at feministing actually acknowledged that this isn't just a "problem" Feministing "struggles" with, it's a *flaw* that Feministing fails to correct. And for many commenters here it isn't just "tough" to deal with the comment "conversations", it's completely fucking awful. Comment threads frequently go hopelessly awry (I am afraid to read any comments in a Prof. Foxy post!) and what we get from Feministing's editors is the occasional "we sympathize, we're thinking about it" but no actual action. Like that weak, trailing-off initial "yeah, we might not be so hot with trans" post that became...nothing. How about action?!
c) it seems like no one at Feministing currently feels equipped to deal with moderation of trans threads. is it possible that feministing could hire, say, a moderator who *is* prepared to dive in and ensure that, while a safe space is not possible, Feministing at least does not have to be an active minefield? Is it possible that when we report shit, we actually get prompt responses instead of just awkwardly ignored? Is it possible for Feministing to behave as though trans people matter? I know Feministing wants to be 101 and beginner-friendly but at some point you have to acknowledge that with the growth of the site comes responsibility and Feministing consistently fails to make itself accountable.
I appreciate your honesty and time in writing that comment.
A lot of what you say is true. While we most of the time feel like we're doing the best we can, it's not enough. Not just on trans issues in comments, but on other issues that often blow up in comments (race, prof foxy's columns, etc).
We would love to take your third suggestion and hire someone to be a community moderator. We've thrown the idea around before. The main problem is, to be perfectly honest, we don't have the resources to pay that person to do what would be a really hard job. And would require almost full-time attention, since comment threads tend to go out of control on off hours, nights and weekends when we are precisely not paying enough attention. As is we don't pay ourselves for most of the work we put into the site, which is probably a big reason for why we constantly fall short on things like comment moderation.
Anyways I wanted to respond directly to you in this thread. I'd also like to continue this conversation with you off the thread, so I'm going to email you as well.
Hey Miriam, I really appreciate your response. I'm in the process of responding to your email.
Ghostorchid I completely agree with everything you just said. Especially the end of point b where you pointed out:
"what we get from Feministing's editors is the occasional "we sympathize, we're thinking about it" but no actual action. Like that weak, trailing-off initial "yeah, we might not be so hot with trans" post that became...nothing. How about action?!"
I remember the post I think you're referring to from so long ago when the boycott first started. I thought there would be a follow-up post, at least one, saying how they were going to address these concerns. Not just the first post saying that they were aware of the concerns and were sorry. It reminds me of Obama and one of the reasons I'm so upset with him right now actually. He acknowledges he's done little to help the LGBTQ community...well that's great, but how about now you actually DO something? I apologize if this sounds like an attack because I do really love the editors at Feministing but it's just very frustrating.
And I feel like lately especially Feministing has become an increasingly hostile community. I've started to comment less and less because I feel like the hostile posters who don't "get" feminism and who are always trying to play devil's advocate about EVERY SINGLE THING are outnumbering the rest of us on here that really want to have meaningful discussions and care deeply about feminism. And this happens on seemingly almost any type of post here, even the more "vanilla" ones. So I can completely understand the boycott now more than ever.
Trans rights are something I know almost nothing about, but it's an issue now in my state with an attempt to pass an Employment Non-Discrimination Act that either does or doesn't cover. Can you recommend a source for getting up to speed?
Aleks this is not the appropriate thread for that question. Go to the National Center for Transgender Equality and you'll find resources.
Thank you, I will.
I'm a little confused about your response, Miriam. If this is the inappropriate place, why did you then provide the resource. Isn't that reinforcing derailing behavior you're trying to stop?
I'm not trying to be flippant, but I'm just a bit confused as to why you would give someone what they're looking for when they're not on topic.
Really? Really? In a thread on a post that is talking about derailing and 101-style questions by privileged cispeople on trans issues...you decide to ask a totally off-topic 101-question?
Getting the point FAIL.
I'm really sorry to see you leave, Zyfron, but I understand and respect your decision.
For my own part, I think it is the responsibility of the cis-privileged (myself included) to educate ourselves and help call each other out on the transphobia, rather than acting like it is the responsibility of trans folk.
I liked the suggestion of having a trans-only thread opened up on Feministing for a discussion of how to address these things.
I'm of the opinion that moderating out transphobic comments isn't censorship. If racist or sexist comments can be moderated out, so can transphobic comments.
"I'm of the opinion that moderating out transphobic comments isn't censorship. If racist or sexist comments can be moderated out, so can transphobic comments."
exactly.
I'm sorry that a site which was supposed to be progressive and feminist has exhausted your emotions. I'm sorry you can't be here anymore. I can sympathise, but I still think it's a shame that things came down to this. Good luck keeping up the good fight elsewhere :)
Is there a reason you don't just moderate every comment? Racialicious does this, and while that means that conversations don't happen in real time, I can tell from some of the mods' comments that they stop a good number of really vicious and stupid things from coming through. The result is that Racialicious has highly intelligent, thoughtful comment threads where very little time is spent smacking down derailing topics. They make Feministing look like chaos.
I understand that this is a high-traffic site and that the moderators all have busy lives...but wouldn't it be worth the slow-down in new comments appearing if that meant that no one had to read damaging and ignorant attacks?
I really like this idea. Some of the comment threads can get really long and sometimes half of those comments are useless. I really enjoy reading the comments some times. But other times I am just so disappointed in what people are saying. I rarely comment, mainly because I don't want people to jump down my throat. I feel that if the editors moderated every comment then even people who accidentally say something offensive won't be put up and only comments that actually move the discussion along will be allowed.
I think there was a recent post about the new comments policy. Maybe more use of the "moderated" or "closed" option?
Really? I found Racialicious horribly offensive, and the direction of the blog just out there...What I like about Feministing is that there generally tends to be a majority opinion, but also minority expression.
Well isn't that ironic; since I consider some of your recent comments to be horribly offensive.
I love this website to death, but I do think we need to do more about all of the stupid, transphobic comments people post. I am not trans but I think the trans only thread is a good idea.
The best thing about feministing is also the worst thing about feministing. Feministing tends to draw from a fairly young demographic and it tends to draw in a lot of new feminists and it is by far the most popular website for young feminists and new feminists. Many people who read this website are in high school (some even in middle school) and have not had the formal "liberal arts/college" education yet. This is wonderful, but it comes with its own set of problems.
When people first come to feminism/political activism, they often say/assume a lot of really ignorant things. Over time, these people WILL change but it may take a few months, even years for this to happen. I remember that when I first came to this site I was extremely ignorant about transgender issues and said/thought a lot of ridiculous things.
However, I am now aware of my cis gender privilege and no longer say/think transphobic things.
My point is, for every stupid comment you get now, that person WILL most likely be on your side in 1,2 or 3 years. It take TIME for people to become educated and overcome their ignorance.
I'm not trying to downplay how awful some of the people here are. But for most of them, their awfulness WILL go away after hanging around this site for a while. You are not looking at the long-term effect of all of this.
Feministing is the ONLY website that has been able to attract a large amount of young and new feminists. While I think comments should be moderated and offensive ones removed. If you leave the young and new feminists out of the picture, you are leaving out a lot of people that could potentially be good allies in a couple of years.
So yeah, find a better moderating system. Have trans-only threads but give people a chance to learn and grow while you are at it.
Nobody's talking about leaving out young and new feminists. However, there are plenty of places for people to learn about trans issues, and it is incumbent upon new cisgender activists who want to be trans allies to seek out those resources themselves. Transpeople here on Feministing are not here to be potential new allies' personal Ask-A-Trans resource.
And to be honest, this bothered me a lot: I'm not trying to downplay how awful some of the people here are. But for most of them, their awfulness WILL go away after hanging around this site for a while. You are not looking at the long-term effect of all of this.
In other words: Suck it up, transpeople, and play Ask-A-Trans while being slurred and defamed by the newbs, cause you OWE it to them to help them learn! Look at the long-term effect, even if it comes at the expense of your own mental and emotional resources! I, the wise cis person, know better than you what your energy should be spent on, and will scold you for placing your own immediate mental/emotional health over the long-term good of these potential allies.
Seriously, wtf?
I wasn't telling transpeople or anyone else what to do. I'm sorry if I came off that way and offended you or anyone else.
I am just saying that when transpeople leave this blog for smaller ones, the masses of newbs will most likely not be following them. When this happens there will still be lots of transphobic newbs and even less discussion of issues that affect transpeople. Anyone is free to do whatever is best for them, but leaving the places with the most people will not do much to decrease the overall amount of transphobia in the world.
I am not saying that all transgendered commenters should have to put up with the newbs' crap. We could maybe have like, a wikipedia-style Trans 101 area of the site. Whatever we do it has to be user friendly, because most people, newb or otherwise will not go out of their way to look stuff up.
I think, here, there's a difference between user friendly and catering to people's laziness. Admitting to, while asking, a "101" question so you can go off on your own and learn is WAY different than always asking these questions and derailing.
I appreciate the apology, thank you.
You're right, most newbs will not actively search for information on trans rights. But that's a problem with THEM, not with the transpeople who choose not to engage their ignorance and endure their transphobia while trying to educate them. This reads kind of like your standard victim-blaming, to be honest. It's putting the onus on the oppressed class to constrain the behavior of the dominant class, which just isn't cool.
Even if it's well-intentioned, which you seem to be, the "stay and educate us!" idea is born of privilege.
Yup, this reminds me a lot of the discussions that take place in an introductory women's studies course.
There is a distinct pattern evolving here. Feministing's comment threads are essentially chewing up and spitting out wave upon wave of transgender participants. That is, one group of regular transgender commenters grow weary of dealing with others' ignorance, leave Feministing for greener pastures, and are replaced by a newer batch of transgender commenters. Under the current conditions, this cycle will continue, and this blog will serve as a venue that alienates trans people from feminism. This problem can be generalized to race, class, and a number of other demographic axes as well.
That formula may work for educating young white, middle class cis people new to feminism, but what about other young people new to feminism? If Feministing's goal is to introduce a broad spectrum of young people to feminism, it's failing the needs of those young people who exist outside of the white, cis, middle class, etc. norm. In the long run, this will help reproduce a Feminist movement that drives away those who exist outside of the norm. Unfortunately, this is something feminism has been guilty of for many decades now.
Providing an environment for the education young people is great, and I fully support that goal, but not at the cost of educating only the most privileged young.
Anyway you cut it, there needs to be more supervision on these comment threads.
Learning is great, but learning at the expense of the people you're trying to learn from/about is counter-productive. Being a trans ally in 3 years doesn't make up from alienating trans people now.
It's things like every single time someone posts on the main page and uses the word "cis" there's someone who inevitably comes in yelling "WHAT DOES THIS CIS WORD MEAN?!?!" When it was first introduced here, I was unfamiliar with it, but understood what it meant from context. I had been used to hearing other terms from the trans community where I live ("bio" is popular here, as in "biologically aligned").
After our first discussions about it, I figured we had an understanding. However, it KEEPS COMING UP and people keep demanding a definition. At a certain point is goes from 101 curious questions to trolling. Use a search engine and you'll find a lot of what you're looking for.
There's also a lot of people on here who are actively transphobic in their responses. Actively using the incorrect pronouns in reference to genderqueer people and disrespecting the transgender community's embrace of gender neutral pronouns. It's horrendously disrespectful and destroys any safe space.
These are the things that drive people out. These are the things that need to be addressed.
Whether caused by an ally "down the line" or not, it's still alienating and inflaming.
I remember when I first saw the word cis I didn't understand it. So I googled it, and learnt in a few seconds.
Lazy ignorance is definitely troublesome, and causes derailing of many an interesting discussion.
In addition to what other people have said-
Feministing is a great resource for young women who've just found feminism, you say. But what about the young women who aren't white/straight/cis/middle-class/currently (en)abled? As it stands, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them wind up getting burned on feminism altogether very quickly or internalising some very nasty things about their other identities.
Zyfron, I absolutely understand where you are coming from. I decided to hang out here in spite of the boycott, and lately, I've been growing really weary of the ever present transphobic BS I see in the comment threads. Sometimes I feel like I'm beating my head against a brick wall. I'm starting to comment a lot less than I used to and I'm pretty close to giving up on this blog. I took Feministing off my blogroll a while ago because I wouldn't want other trans people to come here from my blog, thinking this was a trans friendly space.
BTW, I've really liked your posts here at Feministing. I hope to catch you in other places on the net... perhaps on a blog of your own creation? :)
Zyfron,
I'm sad to see you go too, but totally get your frustrations. I concluded some time ago that Feministing really is for the young/new feminists, but more mature and/or subtle, nuanced, productive conversations probably need to occur elsewhere. Which is depressing because it has a ghettoizing effect where trans issues tend to become confined to trans blogs, which is counterproductive in many ways.
And I still flinch when I see how trans-hostile feminism can be, and a part of me wants to say "that's not MY feminism." But in the end it doesn't matter what my feminism is like, because the real world effect of the ignorance and privilege going on unabated in mainstream feminist spaces is still alienating to trans folk (and intersexed people, and WOC), so that instead of being the allies we should naturally be, we can't sustain the consensus-building relationship needed to facilitate social and political change. Gah.
Also, I second timberwraiths suggestion of creating your own blog. If you ever do start your own, email me at thefeministagenda at gmail and I'll blogroll ya.
Later
Zyfron,
I'm sad to see you go, but I support your decision given everything you've said. A lot of your reasoning is one of the reasons I stay.
I have a lot of respect for you through your interactions with this site. Thank you for your time here, even if it's sadly coming to an end.
--
There's a lot of trans ignorance and bigotry on this site. There's a lot of ignorance in general on this site and it needs to be addressed in some way. I don't consider myself a great educator in any way, as I'm still learning from this site and other places in my life, but I think that being in this middle position between new feminist and coming-into-my-own feminist has granted me this position of being able to be like "hey, what's that?" and "you know, that's just not right."
I also think being cis gendered is helping me weather the transphobic stuff that goes on here.
More to your point, however, there does need to be more strict monitoring of the commenting here. This "catch it when we can" doesn't work anymore and it's causing some really ignorant and damaging things to be said which should never pass the mods.
While I'm not on board with Racialicious-style posting, I think there's needs to be more done by the mods to make sure the site is monitored better. Whether it be take on more mods or to dedicate more time to watching the site.
A great example of why this needs to be done happened a few days ago when there was a derailer and it went hours without being tracked and stopped. By the time it was tracked, it was too late to save the thread. This type of problem, while in the extreme in that example, happens often.
It takes a lot of effort to mod any forum, as I've modded in the past in other places, and the mods do have the right to have a life. However, something more stringent needs to be done and enforced because I get the feeling we're going to continue to lose some great members like Zyfron.
I wonder if it would be possible for the editors to choose a few longtime, productive, mature commenters to serve as mods for the comment threads? I don't know the commenting system's ins and outs well enough to know if it's possible to grant that kind of selective power - enough to delete a comment, perhaps enough to enforce a temporary ban? - without also granting main-page posting power. And the mods would need to be chosen carefully, and work under a strict set of guidelines. But I think, done well, especially if it's decentralized across time zones to cover "off-hours" that the editors can't be on during, it could significantly enhance the level of discourse here and help to eliminate a great deal of the transphobic, ableist stuff that goes on here.
I had suggested something similar to this on the "we're on a retreat!" post about commenting and modding. I think the heavy concentration of east and west coast (US) living creates the gap, but we have posters from all over the world. "Spreading the wealth" would be a really good idea.
I also like a mini-mod idea a great deal. Someone who can watch threads and do some clean up, but not totally run things on their own. Hall monitors, to be cheeky, I think would be a good idea.
Zyfron,
I've never left a comment on feministing before, as I'm only an occasional reader of this blog (or blogs in general). But I just wanted to tell you that your comments were always really appreciated, and I wish I'd have had the confidence to help more as trans person and a feminist. My friends (cis ones) told me this site was fantastic, and I have many times been disappointed in the site. I still visit occasionally, but without comments like yours added into the mess I will probably soon be joining the trans boycott as well. thanks for all your efforts
Lawrence
The tone of this thread seems to be very "aw, how sad that you're leaving". Which it certainly is. It's incredibly, incredibly sad. But Zyfron isn't just leaving; this is a boycott. It's an act of resistance. Which means that it isn't just sad, it's also angering. This isn't a sad, unavoidable passing or whatever. This is a fuckup on the community and editors' part that could have been 100% prevented. Yes, we're sad, but what are we gonna do about it? How can we be the allies we want to see in the world?
A lot of the comments are starting that way, but there's also a lot of commenters who're putting more pressure on the mods to do more, act up and be more involved in moderating.
This place also chews up a lot of POC, too. The vast majority of whom I had seen when I first started reading have disappeared from the site.
You're absolutely right. Both PoC and transpeople are regularly repelled by the -isms of the commentariat. And I think it's not just a particular problem with Feministing, either. It's more a matter of Feministing being a reflection of mainstream feminism as a whole - which is quite white, middle-class, cis, currently-abled, etc - with the addition of a huge recruiting pool of, as has been noted, new and young feminists, who don't usually have the same grounding in principles of intersectionality and various theories of oppression and so will have a tendency to step in it a few times more often than the rest of us because they're still learning not to do so.
Which of course assumes they're interested in learning not to do so...but that's a whole other question entirely.
I think that some of this has to do with the idea of compartmentalization. There's a pervasive problem here that suggests that if it has to do with only women's issues, then it's the only thing that's entirely feminist. Issues of race, class, genderqueerness, sexuality are all peripheral in entirety and there is no intersectionality between these things. That allows people to say whatever they want because, well, to them it doesn't matter on a feminist site or any feminist forum.
It's a sign of naivete, but also of ignorance. Systems of oppression do operate in much the same ways and understanding how you (general you, of course) interact with those systems of oppression is the way in which you can begin to overcome those on both the large and small scale.
I want to give the posters here the benefit of the doubt. I don't think many of them are looking to be derogatory. It's annoying that we have to repeat ourselves so many times in so many different threads when the same topics come up, but many of those posters aren't the same ones who post the same things all the time. Which, while annoying, is refreshing because it means people are learning something.
Yeah, this.
Personally, I'm not even sad. I'm angry.
One of the reasons I'm not around Feministing as much anymore is that there isn't much you can do about this as a community member. Sure, you can report abuse and respond to ignorant comments with reason, which I have done ad nauseum, but that doesn't seem to stop the flow of the ignorance and harmful comments. So my response lately has been to maintain my own blog, and engage in conversations on a variety of blogs that touch on these issues directly (like Questioning Transphobia and Womanist Musings). Quite honestly, you can often have much more productive conversations there without all the newbies. And that is sad, because some of the people who are in most need of an education on these topics are missing out because the place that seems to be the most accessible to them is failing in this area. So for me, that's where a lot of the sadness comes from, because it's a huge missed opportunity.
I, personally, would like to thank you for doing that with me. I was an ignorant little shit when I got here and you were one of the posters/commenters who really helped me grow up and change my view.
I know it gets daunting, and I wouldn't expect you to come back because I said something, but I do want to thank you because you really helped me grow.
Thanks, Gular.
I don't know if this idea has been proposed, but I find some of the big problems can be solved by just having new folks be quiet for a while until they have seen enough to have a general knowledge base.
When I started reading here I had next to no knowledge trans issues and certainly couldn't tell you what "cis" meant. The difference was that I didn't feel the need to write about something I clearly knew next to nothing about.
Sometimes the best strategy is just shutting up, so perhaps a probationary period for new posters whereby they could read but not write ought to be put into effect. It certainly wouldn't solve everything, but it would put the onus on the new person to learn, not on people here to teach, and it would really serve to cut out some of the harshest stuff.
Until that time we're always going to have a "what's cis?" thing in every trans thread.
The probationary period would also serve to help in a lot of other areas, issues like victim blaming, class and racial privilege, etc.
A 101 section is nice, but it's just not enough. Plenty of people will just skip it if they can start writing off the bat.
It'd be nice if everyone just shut up for a while upon first venturing in, but that'll never happen on its own.
This is actually a really good idea. Or maybe something where the first 100 comments someone makes go into a moderation queue for approval. After 100 posts, the mods have the option to either leave the poster on probationary status (assuming that any of their comments needed to be discarded or assuming that any valid abuse complaints had been leveled), or they are upgraded to full membership, where they are allowed to post without first going into a mod queue.
This might make it much less necessary to heavily moderate the threads themselves since individual posters would already have needed to prove themselves.
Seconding both Unequivocal and davinj here. A probationary period is something that's been used on other sites to great success, and can really reduce the number of trolls and inflammatory comments.
I think I prefer the idea of 100 (or another arbitary number) of moderated posts over a specific time period, because you can read a site for months without joining (I did this with Feministing), and you can join a site and then ignore it for months (I've done this with some message boards).
That should be davenj, sorry.
I really, really like this idea. It would allow the mods to see who may cause trouble, either from ignorance or from malice. I hope the mods will consider doing this.
I think the solution is a combination of the above and a referal (by the mods after seeing the problem comment) to a good information source. I truely feel some comments come out of ignorance and that people should be sent to a good book or website to answer their 101 questions, so those questions and ignorant comments would not derail the discussion or force trans people to educate everyone repeatedly. Feminism is about educating oneself on all forms of privilage and posters have an obligation to do that.
Joan
I like this idea. Especially if it's not being posted and the mod gives an e-mail back saying why, giving appropriate resources or citing the appropriate policy from the site. It's a way to ease people into the community, as well as ensure productive discussion.
The problem that I see (and again, I enjoy this idea A GREAT DEAL) is that if the mods don't have the time to do all threads now, what are they going to do with ALL the comments from ALL the new posters that come through here continually. They'd be overwhelmed very quickly.
Not to say that the regular posters are not trustworthy, but just that they would still need to monitor us as well as we can get nasty with each other. It's a bit unfair to just blame the newbies.
I think, perhaps, we may need to be more metafilter style where we have a "grey" and posters who are having questions about policies, procedures and applications of those policies can voice their concerns for the discussion of the mods and the group as a whole. It'll help really solidify our community culture, as well as help us interact on something that isn't a heated political, personal and/or social issue.
Oh, I certainly don't think this solves every problems, and it will require resources like programming and time, but this kind of think helps to create a sort of baseline that Feministing doesn't currently have with posters.
This definitely won't eliminate the need for normal moderation, but what it can do is put an end to certain repetitive problems, like the "what's cis" or "what's privilege" comments that can really derail threads. It can also catch trolls early.
The limited moderation idea was already proposed in the new comments post on the main page, and at least some arguments will have this feature, where posts run through a filter. I think extending this filter to new posters, like the sort of post limit Unequivocal describes, can really get more folks on the same page.
I'm not intimately aware with the limitations currently facing the mods here, but I also think this kind of job is the sort of thing that can be deputized to people, and while it does restrict conversation to some extent it's not so restrictive as to turn a comments page into a wasteland, it just limits new posters. And as these deputized jobs are voluntary it'll stop the problem of forcing the oppressed group to educate the power group in a discussion.
I think the meta discussion of rules is important, too, and really needs to be a sort of constant conversation between the site proprietors and the community in a relatively safe place. And I'm in complete agreement that it needs to be done outside of an issue context. My only worry is the problem of hypothetical examples in this area that could quickly derail something.
Again, I'm not sure of the feasibility of this idea in the context of the site's demands, but I'm just throwing it out there as a possible part of a solution.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with Metafilter or the MeTa section in particular, but when "calling out" the community expects you to cite specific examples from the site on whole to back up your question/gripe.
So, for instance, if someone posts something which you find to be racist and you post on the Feministing "grey", you would have to provide the example of what's racist, and how it's racist. The community would then discuss the credentials of the analysis itself to determine if it's too over the top for the site's sensibilities, if it's borderline not ok, or if the poster is being too sensitive. It's a system based in peer pressure and review.
There are still mods who have the final say, however it's also a place for users to air frustrations about the site (i.e. "Why don't we have more articles about POC, XYZ is happening and being ignored" or "Why is my comment deleted when this comment is allowed to stay and is basically the same?") somewhere where it's not a huge public call out of infinite frustration and angst, as often happens (and of which I have one in the community queue, funnily enough)
The "grey" section can only be visible to users only to ensure that the discussion is not all over the internet. So, problems users are having can be discussed without the greater internet's microscope.
This also lets some pressure out from the mods to really police everything hard as the community as a whole will have a communal understanding of what's acceptable and we can tell a user, based on our communal standards, what's ok and what's not.
With a site the size of ours, I think we need to change around our systems a little bit. We're getting to big for the way it used to work to be effective, as evidenced by the clusterfucky comments and the new wave of exodus.
As for the rest of it, I definitely think we're on the same page with this.
I think the moderation of new posters is a great idea. It allows the mods to make sure we've not signed in a new troll or MRA, and to educate, if need be, some of the Feministing basics we all take for granted in understanding. There's nothing wrong with being a new feminist; we just need a way to speed people up to where we are in our terminology and awareness of social issues and its impact on our speech.
Normal moderation is essential for any community blog like ours. I would never want to do away with it because there does need to be a captain (or captains) at the helm. People who ultimately say yes/no on any particular issue of the site.
There's been a lot on this thread about "what's cis" etc. Personally I can put up with that, although I won't put up with "we're just women, you're a wierd tranny" that sometimes comes with it.
But the last trans thread I looked at had several commenters talking about how trans women should not be allowed in female-assigned restrooms/toilets. That is a real life problem for many trans women, and to get the same sort of ludicrous strawmen "pretending to be trans to rape us white cis women" here as on some right wing acknowledged bigotry site, is - hurtful.
the "what is cis" thing is primarily my fault. lol I used it as just the most pervasive example I could think of to demonstrate the idea of newness versus laziness.
I know the thread you're talking about with the transphobia. It was so virulent, I couldn't even venture into the thread and be like "look, guys, that's not cool because you're being transphobic. Get over yourselves." I felt my safe space violated and I'm a cis gender man.
Marginalization, I think, is the name for some of the games that go on here. Whether it's with POC, occasionally men, trans folks, or anyone who's not white, middle class, young and cis-female.
Zyfron, I was going to say that I'm sorry to see you go, but thinking about it that's not accurate. I'm not sorry to see you go - I would be sorry to see you stay in an environment that is so regularly abusive to you and yours that you've decided you can't do it anymore. It sounds as if you're retreating for your own mental and emotional health as well as to make a point about Feministing and its safety for trans people, and in that situation I'm certainly not wishing that you'd remain. I am going to miss your voice in the comments, but person > comments.
I could say that it's sad that the commentary on Feministing tends to so everythingphobic that it drives people like you away, but I'm not going to act as if this is somehow new and surprising, and "sad" adds a little touch of inevitability that I dislike. This is not something to be sad about, this is something to be angry about. The comments on this site have often gone to way below 101 level ever since I joined (the transphobia and racism alone make me wince, and I'm privileged and really only starting my journey to be an ally in both those areas), and I've run into pretty terrible stuff in the archives. As it stands, this site is a safe space for no one.
I'm not trans, but I've also been driven to the point where I'm considering abandoning Feministing because I've just been hurt too much. I don't want to say that it's exactly the same (the sheer amount of transphobic comments I've seen far eclipses those aimed at my marginalised identities, forex) but... you have my sympathy. If you get a blog, I'll read it.
Here's a thought--
I am sensing a couple of different issues in this thread. One is a question Feministing's role as a resource and "starting point" for young feminists, and another is the issue of transphobia and the impact that has on the community.
While I do not have a solution for eradicating transphobia (though I wish I did!), here is a suggestion for minimizing some of the more ill-informed comments that appear on the site: what if, in addition to providing links to various resources, Feministing also provided a glossary of terms, or a "Feministing-pedia" of some sort? That way, if terminology such as "cis" is used or "bio" or other commonly referred to terms that are in many ways jargon specific to certain topics or groups of people. This way, the hope would be that people could link to terms in their postings, or people could simply look up an unknown term right on the site.
The idea here is not to enable laziness, but to allow Feministing to still exist as a resource for the "newbs" and perhaps frustrate the more seasoned community members less.
This will not correct some of the problems with comments that derail the discussion, and blatant bigotry will also not be solved by a glossary. However, I think that providing such a resource could be a positive step towards eliminating some of the unintentional inappropriate/ill-informed comments or 101-esque discourse. It would also help defray some of the frustration felt by community members such as Zyfron, whose comments and insights I have appreciated; I am sorry to see the post above.
The thing about this - there is a feminism101 blog. and there IS Wikepedia. On which one can find "cis" "trans" all sorts of educational articles. There is also Google.
I have never understood - if we are all on feministing, we are all at a computer -how lazy is it to derail a thread instead of opening another window and googling what you don't know??
LindySlav - I'm responding to your comment but only because I feel like I've seen it several times this thread and I know your intentions are in the right place. But if people are too lazy to google something, why would they use "glossary" provided?
Somehow the responsibility has to shift OFF the trans/POC/etc folks and ONTO the newbies to educate themselves.
Well, I think that one really substantial advantage to an on-site Q&A is that readers could be certain that the information was being provided through a feminist lens.
I understand that the burden of education should absolutely not fall on the oppressed. However, I also feel that the standard response of "just Google it" is neither as simple nor as productive as many people make it out to be.
If someone is genuinely ignorant about a topic, I would hesitate to send them to Google or Wiki, because there is no guarantee of accuracy. For example, googling "cisgender" gives us a link to Urban Dictionary in the first four results. Is this really where we want to send people for their definitions? On a related note, the Wiki article for "cisgender" currently defines the term as "someone who is comfortable in the gender they were assigned at birth," which is (arguably) different from the way the term is currently being used in discourse at feministing.
Further, the admonition to "educate yourself" presupposes a number of different privileges on the part of the person being so instructed: a fundamental understanding of internet research, sufficient time and resources to engage in such research, an ability to identify and discount bias in order to separate fact from opinion, and so on.
With all of that in mind, I really think an internal glossary, FAQ or mini-wiki would be a very, very useful thing to have on feministing.
I see your points - and it really is my hope that a mini wiki *would* help. I think I'm just feeling rather jaded because I feel that there ARE many places one can look to educate themselves. I mean, I know I've seen threads where "what is cis" was asked and answered *several* times just because people won't even bother to read through the comments where it was already answered!
I know I"m coming off as cynical and maybe I should take myself out of the conversation because cynicism does not usually equal productivity, but I want to say just one more thing about privilege and education - I understand the points you are making. But in this environment, when we are on a blog - I do assume that people know how to type something into google and do very light internet research. I also think that I can safely assume that those on this blog have the time/resources to do so - it might take all of 30 seconds from the computer that you are *already on*. I don't want this to come across as glib - If we were talking about a different forum, offline especially, I completely agree. But here, in this community online - commenters must take some sort of responsibility for their lack of information when there is a WORLD of information at their fingertips.
And yes, you are right about biased information and maybe a series of links or glossary terms would help alleviate that problem. Ultimately, I certainly wouldn't be against any type of mini-wiki or anything like that. I'm just not so convinced it would change much but hopefully I'm wrong.
holmes- Thank you for your comment. I considered the same sentiments as I was writing mine. However, Unequivocal already vocalized (wrote?)almost the exact counterargument that I would use in response.
I would like to add, however, that I am not trying to suggest that responsibility should be on trans/POC/etc users to explain their existence to those ignorant of it. I do agree that the ownership should be placed on those who we are referring to as "newbies"--however, I don't think that is the issue. In fact, the issue of ownership over knowledge acquisition is much bigger than anything we could cover in this thread. If anything, I am advocating for Feministing to provide the information to its users. The point of this is to further Feministing's role as a resource and purveyor of information.
Perhaps this is not the role of Feministing. I know that my glossary suggestion is not the first of its kind. My sense is that the need for one may be increasing, though and it seems time to seriously consider providing such a resource--especially because wiki, google, bing, etc. may not provide reliable resources that define these terms in a respectful way.
LindySlav - thanks for the response, and you can see my response to Unequivocal above. The more I think about it, the more I think the both of you are right - while it is the responsibility of the uninformed to educate themselves, a glossary or wikipedia type thing *would* be helpful and I think my cynicism was clouding my vision on the topic. Thanks to both of you and I really hope that Feministing does try everything they can to educate their audience and facilitate safe and thoughtful dialogue.
This post was very (unfortunately) true. When I first found this site, I was ecstatic, and I devoured posts, threads, and even posted a few articles of my own. But what I quickly discovered is that, a lot of the time, the comment threads quickly disintegrate into screaming matches about who has the most privilege, how "I'M-completely-right-YOU'RE-wrong" and a lot of bickering. I've stopped commenting for the most part because of it. It is really upsetting that this transphobia of the people on this site has pushed you to leave. You're right, it's very emotionally draining to try to counter transphobia (and, while we're at it, other phobias) and educate people when they could do a quick Google search and find a goldmine of information. I'm not sure if I'll join the boycott just yet, but believe me, I've considered it.
You do have allies here at Feministing, but those few voices are obviously (painfully, disturbingly, sickeningly) not enough.
I hope that there comes a time soon where you feel safe and welcome enough to return.
I will personally endeavour to make this space more friendly for you and other transfolk. I hope that others will join me.
Stay strong.