Crossposted at Choice Words .
Last week the Maine Human Rights Commission ruled in favor of a transgender girl’s right to use the girls bathroom at school. Asa Adams School allowed the girl to use the restroom that matched her gender identity until a boy, who it seems was encouraged by his grandfather, harassed her and followed her into the bathroom. School officials then told the girl she had to use the single-stall faculty bathroom.
The state’s ruling corrects a decision that smacks of victim blaming - the girl was forced to use a separate bathroom on the other side of the school because she was the target of harassment. But this story also speaks to the larger problem of the prevalence of gender segregated restrooms. If students at the school (and their guardians) were not trained from a young age that people fit into one of two gender boxes, clearly represented by the places we pee, the girl’s bathroom use would not have been an issue, and her transgender identity would not be a reason to segregate her away from her fellow students.
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What's that? A woman being allowed to use the womens' bathroom? Astonishing! Oh, wait. I forgot about all that cis privilege and willful ignorance that's so openly encouraged in this fucked up world of ours. Silly me! Well... me and mine better get back to the shadows before the villagers get angsty and break out the pitchforks and torches.
/rant
This comment has been deleted for violating comment policy.
Oh, you are just all sorts of fail.
Signed, someone else from Ohio who has way more sense than you.
LOL. A transphobic bigot.
Can we just go ahead and delete this one rather than going through the whole bathroom nonsense again? Please?
Thanks for inspiring a post, douchebag!
Because transgender girls go to the bathroom to assault you. Not to pee. Seriously?
It's true! Didn't you know?
Also true: banning trans women from the women's restroom magically keeps nefarious cis men out. The little "woman" symbol on the door repels them like a force field.
I got rid of all of the bugs when I hit "Report Abuse" just in time!
Women don't assault each other in the bathroom?
Trans women ARE women. Write that like 100,000 times on a piece of paper or until it sinks into your head.
It is far more dangerous for a trans woman to be forced into a men's room than it is for you to "share" the space with someone who is as entitled as you to be in the room.
Trans women ARE FUCKING WOMEN.
Are you going to do a penis check on every hott butch that walks in the bathroom with you? "Sorry ma'am.. er... sir... ummm, I need to look at your pee-hole before you are allowed in here."
One more time TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN.
The irony is while she is so concerned about being assaulted in the bathroom, she's not concerned about assaulting other people to check what's between their legs.
holy comment overload. SORRY!
As a teenager in favor of non-segregated bathrooms I can tell you that I nor most my friends are devilish sex fiends that use school and education time for raunchy hot sex time. FYI sex happens in public restrooms (including school facilities) whether or not they allow men and women in the same one. Also being very close to both adulthood and childhood I can assert that children are just as likely to play doctor with a person of the same sex their own age as they are to play it with a child of the opposite sex.
Yep. I'm a freak, and a pervert. I get it now. Thanks for reminding me.
This reminds me of a conversation I had with my first college roommate... She announced to me that we should not end sexism because she did NOT want to share a bathroom with BOYS. "Ew."
I don't think that seperate bathrooms for boys/men and girls/women are a problem, as long as it's very clear that both of those 'categories' include both cis and trans people, and that everyone is free to use the space that they most identify with.
I personally found the bathroom to be one of few safe spaces at school.
Just wanted to add that I relise not everyone identifies as a woman or a man, and that's what I mean about using whichever space feels safest.
I also find the ladies room a female only safe space. I don't know why the valid objection some women have to sharing a bathroom with male identified people means those women must be transphobic. Yes, some people *cough happilymarriedinohio cough* including some women are transphobic. Others of us are not comfortable sharing personal tasks with men of any stripe. I mean, come on. Now and then someone here will express a preference for female only healthcare providers. Are those women transphobic b/c they don't want to see a male gyno?
Glad to see we have another round of fail.
Trans women are women not "men of any stripe."
On what planet can you turn not wanting a male doctor into being transphobic?
You have all misinterpreted Fruminous, as far s I can tell. She's saying she doesn't want to share a bathroom with a man of any stripe, ie cis or trans. Reread what she wrote. Sheesh.
I don't know why the valid objection some women have to sharing a bathroom with male identified people means those women must be transphobic.
The phrase in bold refers to men. As in, not trans women. Not wanting to share a bathroom with men is not transphobic. Insisting that trans women are men is. Given the comment you're replying to, I'm not sure which of the two you're doing.
This.
I really can't tell what Fruminous is trying to say. That she thinks transwoman are men and doesn't want them in the women's bathroom is the interpretation that leaps to mind, but that might not be it. Perhaps she means that she doesn't want transmen (that is to say, FTMs) using the women's bathroom (as some do, for logistical reasons)? That she's OK with trans women using the women's room but doesn't want a societal switch to unisex bathrooms? It's genuinely hard to tell.
Frumious, your discomfort exposes your bigotry. And while you're at it, when considering your discomfort, try to imagine for a minute how it must feel to be a trans woman being forced to use the bathroom in the place where *you* would relegate her to.
This is atrocious, the ignorance that exists in what is otherwise an enlightened community. Truly outrageous. Do you not realize that you sound like the white supremacists over at Stormfront?
Insisting on referring to trans women as men is transphobia. It just is. A trans woman is not a "man of any stripe," and as long as you insist that she is, you are just as transphobic as happilymarriedwithherheadupherass is.
I'm glad that transwomen are allowed (in Maine at least now) to use the women's restrooms. I do have to say it might make me a little uncomfortable if cis men were allowed in the women's restrooms, particularly at night, but it's not like keeping transgendered people out is somehow going to keep them out too. Like Alixana said the women symbol doesn't magically keep men from entering.
But I still don't know if I think the whole separate bathrooms thing should be done away with. A lot of women have been raped in public restrooms by men. At the very least now if security people see a man entering a woman's restroom they can go and make sure nothing bad is happening. I would not feel safe late at night alone in a bathroom (where there are obviously no security cameras or anything for privacy reasons) with a man I didn't know.
I am always amused when people resort to name calling when they realize that their theories may not function in reality. I am very amused that no one has argued with the substance of my argument. No one argues that children and teenagers would not take the opporunity to explore each other instead of the less than exciting subjects at school, and no one argues that it would not be less safe for women if any man would be allowed to hang out in women's restrooms simply by saying "I'm trans."
My dear, happily married person,
The reason no one is responding to you point-by-point is because your post is so chock-full of bad assumptions, incorrect information, judgmental hatred, etc. etc. that it far better used as a drinking game than anything worth actually debating.
And on Feministing, we've already wallowed in this desperately-needing-trans-101 stuff so much lately that quite frankly, your post was just boring.
So, drink up!
I would *totally* get behind a "Trans 101" post. I try to be sensitive but I stick my foot in my cis-privileged mouth regularly, just out of ignorance. Is there already something like this at Feministing? (Or elsewhere - I've Googled but I don't always trust the sources...)
Yes, agreed!
http://jmcl.wordpress.com/trans-101/
http://birdofparadox.wordpress.com/2009/02/28/yet-another-trans-101-in-which-helen-tells-cis-people-whats-what/
http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/how-to-check-your-cis-privilege/
Because your "arguments" are ridiculous.
I'm a seventeen year old lesbian. Guess I should be using the mens' bathroom so that I don't start "exploring" when I should be peeing.
Shanti, didn't you know that all teenagers are straight? That is, unless they're trannies! /sarcasm
Seriously, the arguments why transwomen shouldn't use women's restrooms is HIGHLY heterosexist, besides transphobic.
Shanti, didn't you know that all teenagers are straight? That is, unless they're trannies! /sarcasm
Seriously, the arguments why transwomen shouldn't use women's restrooms is HIGHLY heterosexist, besides transphobic.
Do bisexual people not get to pee?
I mean, I had a thing while I was in middle school... but I got over it. I wasn't intending to make that a permanent deal.
Are you serious? Is this a joke?
Most likely a bored 14 y/o boy trying to stir up trouble. In other words, troll.
I hope so.
The reason no one is responding to the "substenance" is perhaps because everyone knows that "doctor" occurs on the playground,or somewhere else that is suppose to be a play space, not in restrooms. Not to mention kids have noooooooo problem whatsoever playing doctor with members of the same sex. Not to mention "kiss" tag, heck, if those things are what worry you the only place you may be able to get kids to not explore/kiss each other is when they are using the bathroom. As a matter of fact, you are absolutely briliant!!!! Kids of different sexes will be seperated everywhere but the bathrooms (though given they'll still play doctor/compare anatomy. it makes me think you may be working for the homosexual agenda recruiting kids at a young age by encouraging same-sex touching as oppose to boy-girl).
Two problems:
1) Psychologically, a trans woman is female. It doesn't matter if she happens to still have a penis. If a trans woman does still have a penis, she probably doesn't particularly like it, let alone want to use it to violate another woman.
2) A trans woman in a man's bathroom is in much more danger than a cis woman in a women's bathroom, even if anyone is allowed to enter the women's bathroom.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=trans+101
Hate to shock you, but you didn't just figure out the big smoking gun with this issue. It's a very tired, very bigoted response. Check out the Google link, educate yourself, and then maybe you might have people engage you on levels other than pointing out how ridiculous and offensive you are.
I started out believing trans women should be allowed to use women's restrooms, but the more I read about this in practice the more skeptical I become. I'm very cynical of this working in a school. We don't trust kids to carry Tylenol with them, but we think they should be using the same restrooms?
If anyone has any suggestions for sensible solutions I'd be interested in hearing them.
Start trusting the kids to carry Tylenol. Problem solved.
Trust that if a kid is willing to publicly identify as transgender he or she is not in fact lying to being able to "play doctor" with the cis kids.
As Shanti said above, gay kids use the bathroom of their gender. Why can't we believe that a transgender kid just wants to pee?
Really, though, how many kids get lost in the bathroom on an average day because they're distracted by naked bits? I am a cis, hetero woman and when I was 6 or so, I definitely did NOT confine my "playing doctor" to boys. But never once did I get tempted to do anything in the school bathroom except draw on the wall.
This whole, "But what will they do in there?" directs the conversation to this imaginary place where real considerations get ignored.
I've worked for several summers at a program for kids ages 11-16 or so, and there has been some sort of sexual "incident" that the staff needed to deal with every session I've worked there. One of them was an actual assault, but the rest were mostly kids going too far with exploring or games that got out of hand. And in every single one of these incidents, all the kids involved were the same gender. The way that the schedule and the dorms were structured, it was pretty much impossible for a boy and a girl to be anywhere together without an adult with them, but all this stuff happened in the single-sex dorms and bathrooms.
"But this story also speaks to the larger problem of the prevalence of gender segregated restrooms. If students at the school (and their guardians) were not trained from a young age that people fit into one of two gender boxes..."
What does one suggest to be the most viable solution then? A non-gendered non-segregated bathroom? Or A third option for transgendered students? (That’s a sincere question, btw). While “two boxes” is indeed a limited scope for defining gender, I feel it’s the best starting point when addressing young children, so long as definitions allow for flexibility for further discussions… I mean really, how many different sets of bathrooms can facilities reasonably have? It’s ridiculous that the school isolated this girl because of harassment, (although I expect the intention was to safeguard her), but applause to Maine for recognizing the flexible definitions of gender. It’s another point for transgender awareness.
It struck me that that was precisely what the school was trying to do in having the trans girl use the staff facility. It essentially gives her her own safe, protected space. Instead some here choose to call the school trans phobic or some such.
So segregation is the answer to transphobia?
No I'm not suggesting segregation I'm just pointing out that the school appeared to be making a good faith attempt in working with the student's family in trying to find a solution which accomodated everyone, at least that...I'm just looking for sensible solutions. It doesn't seem like uni-sex bathrooms is even a practical response since it likely wouldn't cut down on trans violence/harrassment.
Actually, from other articles it appears that only one student harrassed her and he was egged on by his grandfather to do so.If there were not complaints from the girl or other female students, it makes reassigning her to another restroom victim blaming.
Having her use the unisex staff washroom forcibly outs her and also isolates her from her peers. I might be OK with having three bathrooms, one men's, one unisex, and one women's (and all three wheelchair-accessible, not just the unisex one as is often the case), if a variety of people were using the unisex washroom, but we are so conditioned to use male or female washrooms if we're cisgendered that this would not likely work out. And AFAIK, trans people are far less safe in a washroom of the sex they were assigned at birth than cis women are even in unisex washrooms. I do understand the reasons for your concern, but please also consider that men who are oppressive enough to rape women would probably not be willing to claim they were trans in order to get into a women's washroom!
Segregation is transphobic.
That's kind of a blanket statement that's hard to agree with. Segregation is not necessarily "transphobic", per se. Sometimes (and I'm thinking specifically of restrooms now) segregation might come about as a means of traffic control, respecting social norms, an issue of financial/spatial means, or (in the case of a school/government building) it could be required by law.
Rulings on what people can use what bathrooms might be transphobic, or more so policies concerning the usage of segregation. I wouldn't confuse the moral status of the tool with that of the wielder.
They made the girl go to a separate bathroom because they didn't recognize her as female. That is *segregation* and that segregation is absolutely *transphobic*. Have you not been reading the posts, or did you just think that it was best to jump in and take my reply to the comment out of context?
No.
A 'third gender' or 'non gender' toilet that trans people have to use does nothing but OUT THEM AS TRANS and open them up to a whole lot of abuse from people.
I refuse to use a toilet that will instantly label me as being trans by the act of using it.
What people fail to realise is that trans people, the women especially, are viewed by the general public as one of the lowest forms of human life.
For example:
My parents would visit me every week in prison if I had been convicted of murder or rape when I was male.
But the second I told them I was changing my gender, they disowned me - utterly and completely.
Anything you do that allows people to identify someone as trans is a potential death sentence. Trans people have been KILLED after being outed.
So no, a 'trans bathroom' is NOT a good solution.
I want to live the rest of my life as an ordinary woman who is treated exactly the same as all the other women around me.
The only 'special treatment' I desire is to be treated as the gender I present as.
Which is something I shouldn't have to fight for.
But this story also speaks to the larger problem of the prevalence of gender segregated restrooms. If students at the school (and their guardians) were not trained from a young age that people fit into one of two gender boxes, clearly represented by the places we pee, the girl’s bathroom use would not have been an issue, and her transgender identity would not be a reason to segregate her away from her fellow students.
Unisex bathrooms aren't going to stop attacks on trans people in the bathroom or anywhere else. Eradicating transphobia does. You're also saying that we need to erase gender to combat gender-based violence. Did you learn nothing from this case? That trans girl was erased from the girls bathroom, simply hidden in some private faculty bathroom on the other side of the school. It accomplished nothing! I don't want such a huge part of my identity erased. I just want people to accept me for the gender that I am. It's hard enough getting people to accept cis women for being women. I can't imagine how hard it is for trans people to get the same acceptance, but erasing their gender identity isn't going to help anything.
BackOfBusEleven, I believe in eradicating the compulsory gender binary, the forcing of everyone into the boxes male and female. I do not believe the "compulsory gender binary" and "gender" are the same thing at all, though they have certainly been conflated. The compulsory gender binary forces all of us to identify with one of two genders. I believe people's gender identities to be much more complex than that, that the range of genders we would embody if we were free to self-identify would be staggering (and fun! and sexy!).
(In case this post appears under a different name, I am the OP)
Exactly.
And on a related note, people in other cultures have been peeing in the same bathrooms for many long years, and no gender-related catastrophes have occured.
Thank you for providing such personal insight to me!
My opposition to unisex bathrooms has less to do with safety than with the fact that every man I've ever shared a bathroom with--roommates, SOs, etc.--has seemed incapable of not peeing on the floor. And public bathrooms are gross enough without having to step over a puddle of someone else's urine in front of the toilet. Especially since it's summer and I like to wear sandals.
If she can use the bathroom without peeing on the floor, then I have no problems with her using the women's bathroom.
And this would be a valid reason for putting trans women in danger by requiring them to use the mens restroom? For real?
Women don't pee on the seat or the floor? They don't make a mess? A periodful bathroom is like heaven? What point are you even trying to make??
But a trans woman isn't a man. She's a woman. (And I've been in some pretty damn filthy restrooms in my time, FWIW.)
Alright folks, we've been through this debacle with the bathroom debate before.
We are not going to allow this line of reasoning again. We support the right of all people's self-determination in regards to gender identity.
We also support people's right to use the bathroom which aligns with that gender identity. Period.
Transphobic comments about "men" in women's bathrooms when we are talking about trans women are not okay.
Please don't engage with this line of conversation anymore folks, we're not going there again.
We're having issues with accessing our backend, but as soon as I can get in there will be some more moderation of this thread.
Oh, good. The "report abuse" link is currently going to Jessica Valenti's email, and my report promptly got an "I will be out of the country and not checking email until July 15th," message bounced back from there.
I'm so very glad that not only does this girl have a family who supports her gender identity decision at this age, but they do not back down and accept the decision to send her to a separate bathroom.
I like your angle. Thanks for adding a little positivity to the comment section.
I second pepper on the positivity! Hooray for this girl and the people fighting for her rights! Maine Human Rights Commission FTW!
At least there's one good thing - many people have difficulty believing that people like happilymarriedinohio exist, and that transphobia is a real problem.
Having comments such as hers appear reminds us that we have a long way to go.
True that. But still depressing.
Thanks for all the transphobic bathroom comment.
You reduced me shaking and tears.
I feel sick to my stomach and a whole lot of PAINFUL issues have resurfaced.
Once again, I now feel like some sort of sexual deviant/predator whenever I want to go take a piss.
DON'T YOU BIGOTS EVER STOP AND THINK ABOUT HOW THIS AFFECTS TRANS WOMEN?
Allow me to be completely blunt:
If a man wants to sexually assault you, he probably doesn't care that he's being "naughty" by going into the female bathrooms. If he wants to rape you, you're not safe in the female toilets. There is no magic forcefield that keeps sexual predators (of any gender) out.
I'd like someone to cite a case where a trans woman has raped a cis woman in a female toilet.
If you can't, SHUT THE FUCK UP.
I'm so sorry about some of the posters on here. :(
I'm sorry, too. Be strong. :)
Vexing,
I am sorry you have to deal with this bogus thread. Coming from someone who tries my damnedest to be an ally in a super trans friendly city, I have no idea how you put up with this bullshit on a daily basis. The words and thought spewed through this thread are disheartening and dangerous.
This whole unisex/bathroom thing is what ended up killing the Equal Rights Amendment back in the 1980s. So I'm not surprised by the back and forth here. Feministing has already posted on this: http://www.feministing.com/archives/006776.html
I turned to Feministing a short time ago to help get over my own "stranger rape" a few years ago. I was raised to be self reliant & what I've enjoyed about this blog over my short time following it is the strength which resides in the community. Growing up in my family we were not encouraged to be outspoken so this has rather been a shock for me. This is why I feel fairly abused being the subject of "phobic" taunts for having the temerity to ask for a sensible solution.
Since some of you can't be happy until you peel back the scabs then I'll tell you. I was assaulted after using the men's room at a crowded bar because the women's line was too f-ing long. Immediately, I blamed myself for putting myself into such a stupid position but now I think about the cowardice of all the motherf-rs who did nothing to help me afterwards so screw 'em. Eventually I pulled myself together & reported it but they never caught the bum...But god***t I shouldn't have to apologize for wanting just one f-ing place where I can f-ing piss w/out fear. If that's too much to ask screw you.
I don't subcribe to all this victimization new age BS the MSM shoves at us & I don't think my rights or fears should take priority over anyone else's. But I'll be damned if they're not taken equally.
But you aren't asking for a sensible solution. You are asking other people to put their lives in danger so you can cultivate a false sense of security. A cis women only bathroom is no safer (for cis women) than a trans inclusive bathroom. Vexing put it best up top when she wrote
"Anything you do that allows people to identify someone as trans is a potential death sentence. Trans people have been KILLED after being outed.
So no, a 'trans bathroom' is NOT a good solution."
The sensible solution is right in front of her but she is unwilling to acknowledge it:
Allow trans women to use the female bathrooms!
I'm obviously not talking about trans women who've transitioned, but for those who haven't I'm unwilling to second guess whether every biological male who walks into the fucking women's room is a legitimate trans woman, or some motherfucker who wants to rape me. If that makes me a monster then so be it. But God forbid you get raped once & tell me you don't feel the same way. I know from fucking PAINFUL experience its a shitload easier for a transwoman to use a male bathroom then it is for me. If this ain't some goddamn bullshit. Where does a feminist go seeking some goddamned common sense & common decency?
I used the male toilets for over 20 years of my life, at school and later in the workplace.
During that time, I was presenting as a MALE.
During that entire time, I knew I was transgendered.
I officially transitioned on September 3rd, 2007.
From that date, I wore exclusively female clothing and presented to the world as female.
From that date, I also started using the female toilets, wherever I went.
The buildup process prior to September the 3rd, 2007, was several months of planning and shopping - I had to flesh out a wardrobe from scratch, unlearn a whole bunch of masculine traits (the way I walked, the way I spoke, my body language) and get the green light from my employer. I had to inform my family, friends and close colleagues and deal with the variety of reactions.
I also had to seek a psychologist consult from the hospital to verify my 'transness'.
This isn't a simple process. You don't just wake up one day and think "Oh, I'm trans and now I'm going to wander into the female toilets!"
The is no reason to use the female toilets UNTIL YOU START PRESENTING AS FEMALE.
So no, you won't get men, dressed as men, hanging out in the female toilets, claiming "Oh, I'm allowed in here, I'm a transsexual."
That's what you suggested, and it's fucking ludicrous!
Trans women will be dressed as women. They'll be easy to identify, because they'll be utterly terrified of coming within six feet of you, for fear of being labeled a rapist, pervert, peeping tom or whatever.
They will be doing their utmost to respect you and your space. They will have a carry letter from their psychologist stating that they are trans and that they are transitioning from male to female.
You said:
"I know from fucking PAINFUL experience its a shitload easier for a transwoman to use a male bathroom then it is for me."
WTF?
Like HELL it is! Here, here's a picture of me.
Why is it easier for ME to use the male toilets?
Why won't I get raped, like you did?
Why are you insisting that I'm in no danger?
Where is YOUR common sense and decency?
Oh no, that's right...
Because I was born with a cock and balls, I don't have any rights. You're allowed to treat me like a second class citizen whenever you like.
I should just be a good little tranny and expose myself to dangers that you wouldn't expose yourself to - just to make you feel better.
Clearly, as a cis woman, you're far more important than me.
Vexing, you said it a lot more clearly, and with a lot more information backing you up, than I did. Trans women who are far enough along in transition to fear using women's washrooms less than they fear using men's washrooms are easily distinguishable from guys.
I have nothing to add to this, other than Vexing, you are awesome. Much respect.
Vexing,
I am really sorry you had to deal with those bogus postings about bathrooms, it's taken along time to check my own cis privilege. Then one night a transfemale friend of mine walked into a men's bathroom because she didn't feel welcomed into a "cis" woman's bathroom and she got assaulted. We had to take her to the hospital. It was the most horrifying example of bigotry I ever experienced.
Since then, I have always been able to notice and check that privilege.
So, it hurts me that you are going through this, as another woman.
And btw, you're beautiful!
Your friend isn't the first and won't be the last; so long as people continue to perpetuate this bathroom idiocy. My heart goes out to her, I hope she has recovered without complications and whomever committed such a heinous was hung, drawn and quartered in the most medieval manner possible (or at least caught and doing time for it).
Thank you for being an ally to trans people.
And thank you for the compliment - that is the single most wonderful thing you could ever say to a trans woman :-)
There are a few possibilities if a cis guy enters a bathroom to rape a woman:
1) Everyone who looks male is banned from the women's washroom. Someone sees him and says, "Hey there--um, this is the women's washroom" or something along those lines. He leaves.
2) Everyone who looks male is banned from the women's washroom. Someone sees him and says, "Hey there--um, this is the women's washroom" or something along those lines. The guy is annoyed at being questioned, and assaults the questioner or someone else.
3) Everyone who looks male is banned from the women's washroom. People don't question him because they're too nervous or there's no security, and he assaults someone.
4) Trans women are allowed in the washroom, but security or other women think, "Hmm, something's off about this person," and ask, "Hey there--um, this is the women's washroom..." or something along those lines. The guy leaves.
5) Trans women are allowed in the washroom, but security or other women think, "Hmm, something's off about this person," and ask, "Hey there--um, this is the women's washroom" or something along those lines. The guy is annoyed at being questioned, and assaults the questioner or someone else.
6) Trans women are allowed in the washroom, so nobody questions the guy. He assaults someone.
The situation you're worried about is #6. The situation you're hoping would replace it if trans women were banned from women's washrooms is #1.
#1 is not very likely to happen. I'm pretty sure stranger rapists aren't generally meek and mild types who will just leave if questioned.
#6 is also unlikely. A stranger rapist is probably going to have a fairly unambiguously masculine gender presentation, and that's less likely to be true of a trans woman. So even if trans women are allowed in women's washrooms, I don't think most people would assume an unambiguously masculine-looking person was one.
So you're hoping that an already unlikely situation (#6) would change to an even more unlikely situation (#1) if trans women were not allowed in women's washrooms. What is more likely is that allowing trans women in women's washrooms would let them use the bathroom safely, whereas forcing them to use men's washrooms would put them in much more serious danger than cis women in any washrooms, because bashing trans people is more accepted in our society than raping random strangers is.
Sometimes, it is reasonable for most people to put up with a small risk in order to save a few people a very, very large risk. This is one of those times.
How do you know I haven't been raped? Are you some kind of genital whisperer? In addition to being able to spot a penis from 50 yards, do you also know the history of my vajayjay's past abuses?
I'm done trying to talk sense to you.
I understand that you have a personal and intensely emotional issue with this. But this whole issue is a red herring that social conservatives are using to manipulate people's emotions.
Men who want to assault women in the restroom do it. They walk right in and they do it. And preventing trans women from using the women's restroom doesn't stop this, it doesn't make it any easier for predators, and it only adds another heap of hurt to the world. Not only is it incredibly dangerous to trans women to be forced to use the men's room, but this whole debate casts them as perverts and rapists. Nobody transitions in order to have access to the women's restroom and your body. And even if they did, suggesting that your safety as a cis woman from the remote chance that one pervert will infiltrate the women's room and assault you does not override the substantial chance that trans women will be attacked in the men's room. Not unless you view yourself as more valuable than a trans person.
I think the issue is that having trans people use a separate bathroom doesn't actually solve that problem, but it does create others. If a man wanted to assault a woman in a restroom, having a rule against trans women using the restroom wouldn't do anything at all to keep him out.
A sensible solution to both the safety issue and the trans issue would be to get rid of the multiple-stall bathrooms entirely and replace them with small individual bathrooms that can be used by anybody.
Ruchama, you have exactly the right idea here. Little signs reading "Ladies" and "Gents" offer no protection against ANYTHING. They do not promise a safe zone from weirdness, from violence, from pee on the floor, from rape. There are merely there for the sake of the gender-binary-loving culture we live in. It's insane, dangerous and evil, I know.
But Ruchama has the right idea: In the local LGBTQ center in my city, they share a building with a rape-crisis hotline and other various non-profit groups. All the bathrooms in the building have to be unlocked with keys, in the style of a gas station. They are single-occupant, so one can comfortably use whichever one they want freely.
as someone who is in training to become an architect and has to deal often with codes requiring specific numbers of toilets per number of building occupants, as well as the high costs of bathrooms, let me just say i don't think this will ever become a mainstream practice. if you have individual restrooms, that takes up a lot more space and requires a lot more fixtures (one sink for every toilet). and right now, in efforts to "green" buildings, there's a huge movement in the industry to make bathrooms as small as possible. and retrofitting existing buildings to put in individual restrooms would be mega-expensive, and would reduce the number of toilets available for use, so i don't think the majority of people would be supportive of such a measure. the only logistically reasonable and morally fair solution i see is to let everyone use the restroom they identify with.
Now imagine if you had been a trans woman in the male bathroom:
Upon discovering your lack of female genitalia, you would in all likelihood have been beaten to death instead of raped. Or raped, then beaten to death.
Are you still sceptical about letting trans women use your bathroom?
Or would you prefer that I risk my life, just to pass water?
I'm utterly appalled at what happened to you, but I simply cannot see it as any kind of justification for putting trans women in exactly the same situation!
Here's a solution: don't allow rapists to use public bathrooms. Or, if that's unconstitutional, have them use the segregated one in the office. That way everyone else can pee safely.
Nononono!
Trannies should have to wear nappies (and ride at the back of the bus)!
That way they never have to use the bathroom ever again!
I'm a GENUISE!
Maybe we should invent a bathroom force field that repels everyone except for blond, blue eyed, virgin cis girls!!
If a cis woman is uncomfortable with having a female-presenting trans woman in the restroom with her, I have to wonder how she'd feel about having a trans man enter. I think my beard would make a woman pretty uneasy-- unless one plans on doing crotch checks, too.
Or should all of us trans folk be relegated to the mens room to keep women from our perversion?
Who would have heart to tell this kid that she can't use the girl's bathroom?
Happilymarriedinohio, are you up to the challenge?
Cattrack2, how about you?
The answer, sadly, is "plenty of people". I opened this thread by saying the villagers would come with their pitchforks and their torches. Lo and behold, here they are, so very proud of their own ignorance, so very willing to sacrifice us like sheep to the slaughter all in the name of their own make believe safety. They are pathetic and we have to suffer because of it.
The greatest irony is that if Happilymarriedinohio or Cattrack2 were to actually be assaulted in a bathroom, I would be the first to jump in and kick a little rapist ass. Do you suppose they'd offer me the same in return?
You know, I only read a few comments here and I'm not surprised by what I see. I'm getting really tired of seeing so much idiocy and hate posted on the comment threads at this blog.
You people are f*ked up. That's all I have to say at this point.
I think we need Trans 101 month at Feministing. Or an explanation of how Google works, one or the other.
Unfortunately, we've done that, in many other threads, and it doesn't seem to take.
Although I think spaces like this (entry-level feminism, or the feminist gateway drug) are probably the best places to do all the 101s.
Yeah, I know, I am just venting frustration and being sarcastic again. And I do agree, it is annoying, but hopefully those people who aren't posting offensive things, or lurking, are learning.
I can't believe some of the comments of here. It's ridiculous. Much love to the trans women and men who have to put up with this rubbish, in a feminist space of all places. Particularly Vexing; I think you're putting across your points really well. What is it about public bathrooms that make normally sane people lose their heads? All the points I would like to make have been said many times; I would just like to comment on the notion that security will notice men going into womens bathrooms. I would estimate that over 95% of the public restrooms I have used have no security person watching them. Some have a camera outside the door, but these are only useful of course for catching a perp after an attack; they are not constantly monitored, let alone by someone within a 10m radius and they are not going to stop an attack that has already started. The only restrooms I have ever used that are constantly under watch by security are those in upper-end department stores. Hence this argument really is not applicable to anywhere except these places. And as such, it becomes a matter of privilege.
Yes she did recover fully, and thankfully since there were idiots that ended up in a gay leather bar to trash people in the bathroom 5 bears went in and... hum, how to say this?
Ah, with great... verve escorted them out of the building. It was handeled very well.
and you are very welcome. ;)
there befor were equals they!