I've never created a post before at Feministing Community, but since I don't have a web-based forum of my own, I thought I would try putting some ideas out this way.
I'm wondering if anyone out there who has typical signs of what allopaths classify as 'polycystic ovarian syndrome' (regardless as to whether or not you adhere to that medical system or its diagnostic practices or categories-- I don't, personally) chooses to identify as 'intersex' on that basis alone? Although it appears that this 'condition' is usually not grouped under an intersex classification, I see no obvious reason that it should not be; it is caused by a particular genetic formation and is thus present -- even if not yet manifest -- at birth.
As a person with a mix of 'female' and 'male' secondary sex characteristics presumably attributable to this condition, I am considering adopting intersex as an identity category, and am wondering what others, particularly intersex people themselves, feel about this? (I have never felt I possessed an 'essential' male or female gender identity myself, but have generally gone along with my socially ascribed female one -- my female-typical fat distribution makes my 'femaleness' un-hideable. Yet my 'male' facial/body features often complicate maintaining/performing this identity.)
I can see an intersex identity being advantageous in the sense of helping me/others become more open and public about the 'male' characteristics (male-typical body and facial hair; masculine facial features and musculature; male-pattern baldness) that many of us possess but generally minimize/hide. I also think this would help in moving us away from the allopathic construction of PCOS as a 'disorder' in need of 'treatment' -- or equally oppressive, as a 'risk factor' in need of 'professional monitoring' -- and toward its acceptance as a legitimate form of human embodiment. Yet, since many more people have PCOS or similar genetic hormonal 'conditions' than have traditionally been classified as intersex, I wonder if the existing intersex community would fear being 'swamped' by the potential influx or having their identity or politics diluted in some way? I really have no idea and am genuinely curious.
(Note: Please don't comment unless you're committed to honouring the non-ableist and anti-medicalization tenets of my position; i.e., no "But PCOS cauzes teh terrribal diseesez!!!111!" Living causes dying, in all people, without exception.)
Thank you.
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"Please don't comment unless you're committed to honouring the non-ableist and anti-medicalization tenets of my position; i.e., no "But PCOS cauzes teh terrribal diseesez!!!111!""
I do not feel that PCOS makes teh turrrible dizeez, but my experience of what the syndrome is doing to and with my body leads me to agree and comply with--in my case, that is, not extending it to others and letting each person make a decision about how one experiences one's body (something to which I am very dedicated)--a medical course of action, for me. I will, as you suggest, not comment. Interesting post, though!
I'll have to do the same as the above.
Anti-medicine seems odd to me. I don't support "alternative" or "naturopathic" medicine, or various other quackery.
I don't understand this new idea of hating doctors, modern medicine, or various other things.
It just reminds me too much of parents letting their children die of cancer, because they believe magic crystals and incense will cure them, instead of chemo and doctors.
I don't support "alternative" or "naturopathic" medicine, or various other quackery.
Wow. That's a great way to totally dismiss generations of knowledge held by non-whites and women (as opposed to the white men who dominate the medical and pharmaceutical industries) based on their lived experience. Way to flaunt your capitalist western privilege and degrade all other modes of experiencing the world. You may continue to drink the "the western medical establishment is great and not profit-driven and only has your best interest in mind" coolaid if you wish. But please don't shit on those of us who choose to have an open mind and take a more critical stance.
Question: what do they call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine.
I disagree with your premise that to hold a belief that science can provide evidence based treatments is somehow dismissing generations of knowledge.
Should we continue to believe that the earth is the centre of the universe because for centuries the catholic church believed it was?
No one here said anything about the medical system being non-profit, and I ask you this - don't alternative medicines cost money too? So someone is making a tidy profit from all of those tree bark/magic water remedies, without the burden of showing that they actually work.
As for Vidya's post - I think people should identify with what works for them.
As for medicalisation, again if you don't want to do that then don't but others who may find that PCOS has made conceiving difficult (or insert random PCOS related health problem here), they may find medicalisation helps them overcome this problem.
I'm not sure why you think this is my claim:
I disagree with your premise that to hold a belief that science can provide evidence based treatments is somehow dismissing generations of knowledge.
I don't think that science in inconsistent with traditional medicine. And I'm not sure why you think I said that. Were you perhaps responding to someone else?
My issue is with western medicine (which is actually distinct from "science" as a general category), and western medicine is not evidence-based. There are many articles on this, if you would care to research it. At this point nobody, not even people working in the profession, claims that our current medical model is evidence based. I'm also not claiming that western medicine is never helpful or useful. It often is. But it is not the be-all end-all that medical professionals want you to believe it is. It is pharmaceutical driven. Almost all of the research that occurs in the US has a pharmaceutical focus and is concerned with creating new and more lucrative treatments. So many, many traditional treatments that have been proven effective through conventional scientific research in other countries (like in Austrailia and western Europe) will never be used here, because no pharmaceutical company stands to make a profit from them. In contrast, many treatments that are not only less effective, but often also do a lot of damage to the patient, continue to be used because profit is the driving motivation. Further, the pharmaceutical companies routinely use government grant money and other contributions (like the money that's raised by the Susan G Komen foundation) to block research into prevention of diseases that have environmental causes (toxins in the environment such as pesticides and herbicides in the water). Do you honestly believe that these are the actions of an industry that exists first and foremost to help people? And believe me, the medical industry is largely funded and directed by pharmaceuticals. To believe otherwise is to be hopelessly naive and foolishly optimistic. I encourage you to do your own research on this and carefully measure the evidence on both sides of the issue. You can start with the way western medicine handles childbirth.
Most Americams unthinkingly buy into the propaganda that's spread by the pharmaceuticals in defense of their market share. Add to that the reverence with which we treat doctors and the lack of agency that patients and their families have in our current system, and I understand why most people have such blind faith in western medicine and dismiss all traditional knowledge as quackery. But if you claim to take a stance that's critical of the patriarchal establishment, then mocking and degrading those who question business-as-usual and are willing to examine other sources of knowledge and other ways of doing things is absolutely inappropriate. I've done my homework on this, and studied much of the research, and realize that many traditional medicines are upheld by research while others are not. Have you?
Homework done, thanks for asking.
My opinion remains the same.
nice cop out
To the posters above, especially Multipass: there was a clear, polite and specific request from the OP for people to refrain from commenting if you disagree with the basic tenets of the OP's position. I'm not inclined to agree with the all-too-common accusations of "OMG, you're derailing!" but in this case it seems accurate. This is probably a very intense and sensitive subject for the OP, so let's stick to the topic.
Vidya, it seems to me that intersex might not accurately describe the gender identity that you are discussing, since intersex is most commonly understood to imply an individual born with genitalia that bear resemblance to both male and female genitals (i.e. a scrotum that is split so that it looks like labia) or with male and female primary sex characteristics (i.e. a penis and ovaries).
That's not to say that you aren't intersex or that you can't identify that way - just that it seems likely that you will encounter some resistance or confusion since you wouldn't be adhering to the most commonly utilized definition of the term.
You've probably already visited it, but the Intersex Society of North America website (http://www.isna.org) has a fair number of links to support groups. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to also bring up this question in an intersex-specific community and see what the in-group response is?
...And I wanted to make a clear, specific, and polite statement of my interest in the OP's musings (esp. as I have some of the same more male-associated secondary sexual characteristics that the OP describes). It is a very interesting set of ideas and something that I've also mused about as I've navigated my physical presentation, but I've chosen a route (for myself only) that includes medicine (for this situation only). I'll think about this post, and I do thank the author for it.
As for derailing: I'll cop to that, esp. as I'm responding to you, but I'll go no further :)
Intersex is not a gender term - it's a sex term. It's used to categorize people with ambiguous primary sex characteristics, which is to say, genitalia. Babies who are born intersexed are generally diagnosed at birth.
Before you decide to adopt intersex as a descriptive term for yourself, please consider how that might seem to people who were born with ambiguous genitalia. Some of those might resent someone with clearly identifiable genitalia and enough ovaries to even have PCOS using that term.
Ask yourself the question of whether it is your sex or your gender that gives you difficulty. If it's your gender identity, consider using terms like "gender-nonconforming" or "gender queer." Further, consider that fact that some non-PCOS biological-women grow full beards, and many women have thick facial hair (and sometimes chest hair). Noticable facial hair on women is common enough that it not be considered an exclusively male secondary sex characteristic.
Intersex is not a gender term - it's a sex term. It's used to categorize people with ambiguous primary sex characteristics, which is to say, genitalia. Babies who are born intersexed are generally diagnosed at birth.
Before you decide to adopt intersex as a descriptive term for yourself, please consider how that might seem to people who were born with ambiguous genitalia. Some of those might resent someone with clearly identifiable genitalia and enough ovaries to even have PCOS using that term.
Ask yourself the question of whether it is your sex or your gender that gives you difficulty. If it's your gender identity, consider using terms like "gender-nonconforming" or "gender queer." Further, consider that fact that some non-PCOS biological-women grow full beards, and many women have thick facial hair (and sometimes chest hair). Noticable facial hair on women is common enough that it not be considered an exclusively male secondary sex characteristic.
I don't know much about PCOS. Rather than burden you with questions, I am going to try to educate myself by reading up on PCOS and rereading The Five Sexes: Why Male and Female are Not Enough by Anne Fausto-Sterling.
A brief google search on "PCOS intersex" reveals that a lot of people seem to be having the same thoughts that you do.
It seems to me that our society is very phobic of intersexuality, and doctors are historically no exception to this. This phobia has caused a lot of harm in the past and it may warp the way medical practitioners view the symptoms of any condition that blurs the lines between the sexes. That being said, we all die, but some of us die sooner than we have to. Anything that can extend your life is a good thing, imho, and if you have to swallow some poison (ignorance and maltreatment based on your identity) along with the tonic, it might still be worth it if you end up with more years that you can use to cause mischief and stimulate change.
Hiding your masculine secondary sex characteristics sounds like an unnecessary burden. You don't need anybody else's permission to identify as intersex, and if you do so, maybe you will give some other people the impetus they need to follow you.
Other people with PCOS who identify as female might be offended because by transitioning you put their own identity into question. By telling them you are intersex, you are telling them that they are intersex, and that could be very painful. For example, it might be salt in the wound for somebody who is hurt by her inability to carry children. You will encounter a lot of defensiveness from women with PCOS whose femininity is very important to them, and I have a lot of sympathy with that, because my femininity is important to me.
I am not saying this to encourage you not to identify as intersex. It seems to be how you see yourself already, and like I said before, you really don't need anybody else's permission. I just hope that you will be careful with other people's feelings, and if you encounter a lot of anger and hostility, remember that it may not be about you at all, but maybe about that persons own vulnerabilities.
I don't know much about PCOS. Rather than burden you with questions, I am going to try to educate myself by reading up on PCOS and rereading The Five Sexes: Why Male and Female are Not Enough by Anne Fausto-Sterling.
A brief google search on "PCOS intersex" reveals that a lot of people seem to be having the same thoughts that you do.
It seems to me that our society is very phobic of intersexuality, and doctors are historically no exception to this. This phobia has caused a lot of harm in the past and it may warp the way medical practitioners view the symptoms of any condition that blurs the lines between the sexes. That being said, we all die, but some of us die sooner than we have to. Anything that can extend your life is a good thing, imho, and if you have to swallow some poison (ignorance and maltreatment based on your identity) along with the tonic, it might still be worth it if you end up with more years that you can use to cause mischief and stimulate change.
Hiding your masculine secondary sex characteristics sounds like an unnecessary burden. You don't need anybody else's permission to identify as intersex, and if you do so, maybe you will give some other people the impetus they need to follow you.
Other people with PCOS who identify as female might be offended because by transitioning you put their own identity into question. By telling them you are intersex, you are telling them that they are intersex, and that could be very painful. For example, it might be salt in the wound for somebody who is hurt by her inability to carry children. You will encounter a lot of defensiveness from women with PCOS whose femininity is very important to them, and I have a lot of sympathy with that, because my femininity is important to me.
I am not saying this to encourage you not to identify as intersex. It seems to be how you see yourself already, and like I said before, you really don't need anybody else's permission. I just hope that you will be careful with other people's feelings, and if you encounter a lot of anger and hostility, remember that it may not be about you at all, but maybe about that persons own vulnerabilities.
That was an interesting essay. Thanks for linking. :)
I don't think there is any term in regular usuage that describes "a person with a mix of 'female' and 'male' secondary sex characteristics" particularly well. (Please correct me if i'm wrong)
"Intersex" is generally used to describe primary sex characteristics; and "transgender" or "gender queer" is generally used with regard gender identity and not sex characteristics. And i think its very likely that at least some intersex and transgender people would object to you using those terms because of that.
I'd personally consider using "gender non-comforming" if you identify as female. And i think it still has the same advantages as you mentioned about adopting an "intersex" identity.
it is caused by a particular genetic formation and is thus present -- even if not yet manifest -- at birth.
PCOS can also be a side effect of certain medications. In those cases, it is not present from birth.
So, to sort of echo Sabriel, if you do end up choosing to identify as intersex because of your PCOS, be sure to specify (if you're asked or whatever) that it is because of your PCOS, and that not every case of PCOS is the same.