Sorry about the vague title, as this is my first post. A few weeks ago I went to a punk rock show with a few guy friends. On the ride back, one of my friends started talking about affirmative action and other issues related to feminism (reproductive rights, etc.), and needless to say I called out this guy on his BS. I said something to the effect of, "feminism and sexual politics is what helped me get into punk rock in general. Bikini Kill is one of my favorite bands of all time! And from there on I got into Fugazi, which led me to other bands." One of the guys I went with said, "you listen to riot grrrl?" and then proceeded to laugh at me.
At that point, I didn't know what to say. I had felt marginalized because something I care so much about had been basically torn to shreds. I had felt pissed that these guys were talking about issues that would never affect their lives with such ignorance.
I am a younger feminist (I'm 17), how should have I responded to their laughter and rude comments?
Oh, and on the topic of music, what are some of your favorite bands that address feminism?
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Riot Grrl is absolutely a "serious" form of music, if there really is such a thing. While I personally wish Bikini Kill had a different singer (I appreciate Kathleen Hanna's contribution to Le Tigre and Riot Grrl, but I felt she was B.K.'s weak link), they were a spectacular band. Team Dresch was wonderful. Sleater-Kinney kicked ass.
Riot Grrl was every bit as effective and important a form of DIY punk as any other. Were these bands ever as important, talented, and effective as the Clash? Nope. Were they ever as heavy and searing as the Sex Pistols? Nope. Were these bands ever as accessible and subversive as Blondie or Siouxsie and the Banshees? I don't think so. These are my opinions. Others opinions will vary wildly, including yours, your friends, and members of this community.
But, Riot Grrl bands spoke to their audience in a way that was topically expressive and expansive. The punk scene is wrought with sexism. I suppose it will always be.
Were your friends just being sexist? I don't know. I don't know them. One can be a feminist, and not see Affirmative Action or Reproductive Rights as clear cut.Music is very subjective. People who are music aficionados are often extremely opinionated. There's a beauty in this. But it can also seem insulting.
In the end, Riot Grrl was socially important, and it's legacy will live on. By it's own nature, it will always be marginalized. It's biggest fans will always *feel* marginalized. But there's something to be said for taking comfort in the feeling that this music is yours personally. Something that not everyone gets. It's your own *personal* set of bands who speak to you as an individual. Who speak to your soul, in the language of your soul.
Own it! Enjoy it! It's yours.
"Were these bands ever as important, talented, and effective as the Clash? Nope. Were they ever as heavy and searing as the Sex Pistols?"
I really wish people didn't automatically go to those two bands EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. punk music is brought up. They weren't the best. They weren't the brightest. They're just THE MOST WELL KNOWN.
Rant over.
Nope. They were the best. They were the brightest. There's a reason why so many agree with me, and it's not merely because they were the most well known.
I listen to the most obscure shit ever, and as much as it pains me, I still concede that the Clash, Jay-Z, and the Beatles were the greatest bands/artists ever. As I said, people will disagree. Rant over.
And all conveniently dudely dudes. Sorry, but I call bullshit. They're the most canonized, but the best? Come on.
Okay, personal preference is personal preference...but...most punk fans WOULDN'T agree with you.
I love the Sex Pistols, but they were the boy band of punk. Many, many people who love punk have a fondness for them, but the most searing and hardest? No way. Just the most mainstream and popular. Their songs were the *least* hard hitting of the punk movement (though "Bodies" was getting there)
As for bands to check out:
The Distillers (My FAV)
Civet
Babes In Toyland
Bikini Kill
X-Ray Spex
Jack Off Jill
I never said the Sex Pistols were the heaviest and most searing of all punk bands. That would be ridiculous.
I was saying, "were any of these bands (riot grrl bands) as heavy and searing as the sex pisols?" The thing is that I *can't* name a single riot grrl band that was as heavy and searing as the Pistols. If you can, please let me know who they are.
BTW. I love x-ray spex.
Pretty much I'd vote any of the bands (with maybe an exception of Jack Off Jill) as heavy as the Pistols.
Try to find a live Bikini Kill show on youtube, the passion and intensity there blows any drugged up, half-conscious Pistol out of the water.
Distillers is arguably Riotgrrl depending on definition, but "Girlfixer" and "Bullet and the Bullseye" have a pissed off Brody Dalle screaming her heart out in a way that would put Johnny Rotten to shame.
I could argue punk all day... :|
Has Punk become so diluted that "heavy and searing" is all that makes a good punk band?
I love the Distillers!
Yes, riot grrrl is serious music. Because (presumably) someone enjoyed making it and because you enjoy listening to it. That's all the reason you need. You don't need the opinion of 2 clueless guys.
Yeah riot grrl! If you haven't already, you should definitely check out Sleater-Kinney and Le Tigre. I also love early Liz Phair... not really riot grrl, but it has that same feel to me.
I think it's wonderful that you identify as a feminist at 17 years old. Not many girls your age claim the word "feminist" anymore. On top of that, it is just as wonderful that you listen to Riot Grrl music, especially since it started in the early 90s.
Riot Grrl was a response to what was happening at the time, and it is definitely serious music. The music had a message, and it was a powerful one. If you feel that you identify with it, then it is serious. What is serious to you won't necessariy be serious to someone else, but that's what feminism is all about. If you take it seriously, then defend it & love it.
As far as those guys are concerned, I've learned over the years that sometimes the best way to get through to people is to simply educate them. The word "feminist" sometimes threatens people, and before I drop that word I talk to them about whatever issue is on the table, or I simply ask them why they feel the way they do. You'll find that most people can't answer the simple question of "well, since you're talking about this issue, why do you feel this way?" When they can't answer you, it's always fun to say "I'm a feminist, I bet I can teach you a thing or two about this issue." Kill them with kindness :)
As for bands, Le Tigre is definitely my favorite band that focuses on feminist issues. Who doesn't love a song that screams "Feminists we're calling you, please report to the front desk?" I consider Sonic Youth a "feminist band," and also my favorite band of all time. Kim Gordon was a powerhouse in the 90s, especially during the 3rd wave/Riot Grrl movement.
Own your feminism. There are no rules. Make it what you want it to be, and never feel like you have to explain yourself because some people simply don't get it.
Rock on girl :)
I've never identified with the punk movement, but isn't it in it's heart about being anti-establishment and subversive? That's where the DIY attitude comes from, for starters. That's why it's so in-your-face and experimental.
Look. The patriarchy is the establishment. Anti-feminist punks are weakening their punk credentials by clinging to their privilege and conforming to the status quo. What is the point of being a punk if you only subvert the status quo when it doesn't cost you anything personally?
Riot Grrl is serious music, and the musicians involved with the movement were tougher and more bad-ass than your standard line punk rocker in my opinion, because they were picking on an adversary way bigger than them, like David and Goliath. The same goes for queercore punk rock.
Oh, and my favorite band that addresses feminism is Garbage. My favorite song by them is "Sex is not the enemy."
I don't feel guilty
No matter what they're telling me
I won't feel dirty and buy into their misery
I won't be shamed cause I believe that love is free
It fuels the heart and sex is not my enemy
I also like Joan Jett, in particular "Do you wanna touch," and "you don't own me."
You don't own me
I'm not just one of your many toys
You don't own me
Don't say I can't go with other boys
Don't tell me what to do
Don't tell me what to say
An' please, when I go out with you
Don't put me on display
Anyways...
Feminist music is awesome because it actually means something. It's powerful. It's fighting an uphill battle. Nobody could say that Riot Grrl is nothing more than a fashion statement or an MTV sellout... which is more than can be said for a lot of 'punk' bands.
Oh, and what I would do is start by asking them why they are into punk rock. What does punk rock mean? What makes anything serious music?
Ask them what their favorite bands are doing that makes them so "serious." What battles are they fighting? What risks are they taking? Is there a POINT? What have they given up for their art? What change are they trying to effect in the world?
If they act as though all of the above is just progressive nonsense, that is your turn to laugh and make rude comments...
If all they care about is the sound and the aesthetics of the performance, nothing separates punk rock from The Backstreet Boys or American Idol.
Just ask him flat out if he thinks girls can't rock. If he says yes, then tell him guys like are why we need feminism. If he says no, ask him to please educate you about the proper music you should be listening to in order to not offend his delicate sensibilities.
Seriously, if he's laughing at your music, it's because he's insecure about his own taste in music and must keep up his "cooler than thou" persona.
People aren't gonna always like the music you listen to. I love cock rock, and of course I get shit for that, lol, but it's not an attack against me. If it's something that's important to you, it's a serious form of music, and you don't need validation from anyone else.
Lyrically Riot Grrl had a lot of serious messages. If these guys were slagging off affirmative action and reproductive rights beforehand I'm willing to guess they're threatened by anything they think may knock them off the top of the heap, or at least make them have to share a spot. Including female musicians with something to say.
How should you have responded? However you were comfortable responding in the moment. They were the ones being assholes and it's not our job as feminists to tame or wrangle assholes. Keep yourself safe, especially psychologically (i.e. don't let The Man get you down). If you want to debate, go ahead. I wouldn't expect anything to come from it.
If you haven't already, check out L7. Generally I listen to punk, so I'm always a little disoriented by the guitar solos; it leans more metal, but still riot grrl and very cool.
This is a really good point, and I hope that you pay extra attention to it, Jujubeans. Keep it in mind the next time you're in a situation like that and some guy's attitude is making you feel small.
It'll probably happen again. Next time don't put so much pressure on yourself to craft the perfect argument or say the wittiest most awesome thing. That pressure will only make you feel smaller, especially if getting into an argument at that moment would take you even further out of your comfort zone. You're only human, and it really isn't your responsibility to make a convert out of every person that you know. Do what makes you feel comfortable.
A lot of the time I will see people with privilege going up to people without privilege and saying (in so many words): "You can't blame me for being offensive and marginalizing you. You haven't educated me about sexism/racism/classism/ablism/etc. so how should I know? Why don't you immediately devote all of your free time and energy to educating me? If you don't, you can't blame me for being an asshole."
Ok, ok. I am being a little unjust, but only barely. The point is that putting all of the pressure on women to educate about sexism, or all of the pressure on people of color to educate about racism (to name two examples, but you can apply it to any marginalized group) only compounds the problems that those groups are facing. It is an expectation of those people to devote time, energy and resources that they may or may not have to combating a problem that isn't really their fault or their responsibility. It is the responsibility of men to educate themselves about sexism. It is the responsibility of white people (generally) to educate themselves about racism. Read a book. Listen to people when they decide to talk, but don't assume that fixing your damaged perception of the world is somebody else's responsibility.
If you read Peggy McIntosh you will see that one symptom of privilege is never having the pressure of representing your whole group in a situation. For example, women and people of color often have to worry more that their failure will reflect negatively on all women or people of color.
I used to be terrified of doing math in public, partially because I didn't want to screw up and reinforce the idea that women can't do math. A guy might hate doing math in public for different reasons, but he will never have to be afraid of reinforcing the idea that men can't do math.
Similarly, people of color sometimes have to pay extra attention to the way they dress. As a white person, I have the privilege of looking sloppy if I want to without reinforcing the perception that white people are slovenly. I can be late without reinforcing the idea that white people are always late. That takes a lot of pressure off of me.
The reason that I am even mentioning this is that it is a symptom of sexism that you, as a female, are being put into the position of defending feminism. If I had to guess, I'd say you also feel pressure to make a good argument for riot grrrl because you want to show that women can be persuasive. You want to represent women well in a male dominated environment. That is admirable, but you should remember that you are only one woman, and no matter what you say you can't represent all women, or even all feminists, and it's not fair for anyone to expect you to do so.
If at any point you are not comfortable arguing the merits of feminism, it is really OK to be quiet. Don't worry that you are letting feminism down, or letting women down, or any nonsense like that; if you have those thoughts, those thoughts are symptomatic of sexism. Fight them. Win the battle in your mind by not being hard on yourself about it.
Riot grrrl was absolutely a serious form of music, but I don't know how you're going to convince that guy of it. Some punk dudes aren't as progressive as they'd like you to believe, and still think of girls as objects and/or coatracks at shows. I don't understand it - how can you be a part of a subculture that is supposed be against the status quo and the Man and blah blah blah, but still be sexist/homophobic/classist/racist/etc? I hate going to shows and seeing a bunch of shirtless guys throwing punches and spilling beer everywhere, while girls cower in the back holding their boyfriends' jackets. Riot Grrrl was not only serious, it was necessary! And it is still necessary today! Punk rock isn't supposed to be some fucking boys club.
So cheers to you for being a punk rock girl and not taking shit from dumb boys who think that punk rock is about getting wasted and talking about how cool it would be to be a squatter. It is SO MUCH MORE than that.
My favorite feminist punk song is probably "Oh Bondage! Up Yours!" by X Ray Spex. Here's a few other great feminist-y punk and hardcore songs:
Cheeky - "He-Man Woman Hater" or "Grow Fins, Turkey"
Gruk - "This Is What a Feminist Looks Like"
Witch Hunt - "Legislative Bodies Legislating Bodies"
Adelitas - "Estatdo Asesino"
The Slits - "Typical Girls"
Wow, this is such a timely post considering what's been happening on the Australian music front, with the Triple J "Hottest 100 of all Time" countdown.
There were no female artists. There were two female vocalists, both guest singers for Massive Attack, and there were five bands with female members. That's it.
I know a lot of people won't be interested because this is Australia and therefore small fish, but you should check out this post from Hoyden About Town, as well as the links she posts. Particularly, the one by GirlieJones.
I think I'll write my own post about this now.
oh, good god.
tell those disrespectful children just how disempowering they were; having something that connects you to a movement be shamed by other people is never worth your time.
(also, i love the yeah yeah yeahs. they may not be riot grrl, but has ANYONE ELSE noticed the lyrics to 'y control?')
Jujubeans, do *not* take Carmen's advice! I promise you that if you tell them how "disempowering" they were, they'll laugh you right out of the car. Just saying.
Please, everyone check out The Coathangers. They are a relatively new band (first cd produced in 07) and I've seen them twice this year. All of the four female members play several instruments and take turns on stage singing and swapping instruments. It's punk and humorous and engaging. "Nestle in My Boobies" is a fun song about foreplay from a woman's perspective. I have both of their cds and they'll be touring yet again this fall.
I find the best way to deal with this kind of douchiness is slightly confrontational and very self-assured:
"Yeah, I like riot grrl. Riot grrl is awwwe-summ. Do you have some kind of problem with that?"
You don't need his, or anyone's, approval for YOUR taste in music. It is your taste. He is a douche for implying that you need his approval. You should imply as much in your reply.
And when they start on about the sex pistols and crap, the appropriate response is to roll your eyes and say "oh please." Don't get me wrong, I dig the sex pistols. But what the hell does that have to do with how awesome riot grrl is? Nothing.
Get back at them and let them know what's up. That your preference of music should not be laughed at and that regardless of what bullshit they gotta say, it isn't going to change your love for the RIOT GRRRLS. and show them what those RIOT GRRRRLS taught you!