Today I decided to run with the boys cross country team (because the girls team doesn't start practicing till September) to get a little more practice for when competitions come around. Of course, I decided to "goof around" and began getting tired a little too quickly. So the boys started passing me, until I was maybe a few feet behind the last guy. Then one of the guys (one of the faster ones) dropped out to run with me. When I asked why he did this he said because he wouldn't leave a girl behind. Like it was obviously veryyy generous, but i feel like if it was another guy he wouldn't have done that. I really don't know how to feel about it thought- because he did help me out during the run, but like the fact that he thought I'd be unsafe a few feet behind. I don't know if I'm stuck in traditional ways thinking he was a gentleman for doing that.
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Well obviously, a better answer from him would have been, "I thought I'd help out a fellow runner."
We don't want to be encouraging banevolent sexism. To do so perpetuates the idea that girls are weak by nature and need protecting.
But from the guy's point of view there is another possibility. Often they use those "chivalrous" gestures as a way to talk to and get to know girls without having to intimate that that was their motive. A lot of the nice guys really feel put out and unfairly labelled by the 'guys only want one thing' label and so any excuse to socialise without that assumption that they can use is welcome.
If you think he was motivated by a desire to get to know you. Then next time, I suggest you thank him for running with you because it helped with your training and suggest you'd be happy to do so again (if you want to), but let him know that girls don't need protecting.
"...We don't want to be encouraging banevolent sexism. To do so perpetuates the idea that girls are weak by nature and need protecting.
"But from the guy's point of view there is another possibility. Often they use those 'chivalrous' gestures as a way to talk to and get to know girls without having to intimate that that was their motive. A lot of the nice guys..."
BTW, here do you mean genuinely nice guys and not Nice Guys (tm)?
"...really feel put out and unfairly labelled by the 'guys only want one thing' label and so any excuse to socialise without that assumption that they can use is welcome.
"If you think he was motivated by a desire to get to know you. Then next time, I suggest you thank him for running with you because it helped with your training and suggest you'd be happy to do so again (if you want to), but let him know that girls don't need protecting..."
Great ideas.
Thanks for the compliment. I generally like your comments too.
I meant genuinely nice guys: those who want to be friends and get to know other people without everyone assuming they are only talking to a girl as a prelude to sex. It really is a genuine problem that guys think they need an excuse to talk to a girl if setting up a date isn't their motivation. It's one of the effects of the 'men are from Mars, women are from Venus and we only come together to couple' message that the patriarchy is so fond of.
That's not to say that a date won't be forthcoming but rather that genuine nice guys will think of a girl as a person first.
Maybe put it this way, how do you think a girl would feel if they thought every boy they spoke to thought they were interested in them only as a potential date. For many boys chivalry seems like a socially acceptable way around that insinuation.
This isn't as clear cut a description as I was hoping for but it's late (correction: early), so I hope you understand what I mean. Maybe you can decode what I said and restate it in a concise manner.
"Thanks for the compliment..."
You're welcome :)
"...I generally like your comments too..."
Thank you :)
"...I meant genuinely nice guys: those who want to be friends and get to know other people without everyone assuming they are only talking to a girl as a prelude to sex..."
Thanks for the clarification!
"...It really is a genuine problem that guys think they need an excuse to talk to a girl if setting up a date isn't their motivation. It's one of the effects of the 'men are from Mars, women are from Venus and we only come together to couple' message that the patriarchy is so fond of..."
Yeah, and that effect's messing up everything from friendships to fatherhood of daughters (if every other leisure activity is supposedly too feninine for him or too masculine for her, then there's not much left for a father to do with his daughter than imitate dating at a "Purity Ball").
"...That's not to say that a date won't be forthcoming but rather that genuine nice guys will think of a girl as a person first.
"Maybe put it this way, how do you think a girl would feel if they thought every boy they spoke to thought they were interested in them only as a potential date. For many boys chivalry seems like a socially acceptable way around that insinuation.
"This isn't as clear cut a description as I was hoping for but it's late (correction: early), so I hope you understand what I mean. Maybe you can decode what I said and restate it in a concise manner."
It seems pretty clear cut to me, and still good ideas.
It doesn't sound to me like he was worried for your safety; he was worried about your feelings.
Whether or not you are happy that he was considerate enough to think of you or are angry that he would presume that you needed the company is up to you. Both feelings are legitimate, but it sounds like he was trying to be nice. If you don't like him dropping back to run with you, thank him for thinking of you but tell him that you don't enjoy it and why you don't like it.
"...Whether or not you are happy that he was considerate enough to think of you or are angry that he would presume that you needed the company is up to you. Both feelings are legitimate, but it sounds like he was trying to be nice. If you don't like him dropping back to run with you, thank him for thinking of you but tell him that you don't enjoy it and why you don't like it."
Also great ideas.
I am never one to defend men, but really I am thinking they can never be in the right can they? I think it was a really nice move on his part to help a fellow runner. Perhaps he would do this for any new runner in the group? It would be interesting to find out what his motives were so do report back won't you!
I think the overall tone of your comment was great, but something bothered me...
I am never one to defend men, but really
Word games:
I am never one to defend women, but really...
I am never one to defend minorities, but really...
I am never one to defend LGBTs, but really...
I am never one to defend Catholics, but really...
I am never one to defend Agnostics, but really...
I am never one to defend vegans, but really...
Every one of those statements is just marinated in some sort of prejudice or the other.
Thanks Steven, my comment was specifically 'I am never one to defend men, but really as I specifically mean I never defend men. Men (and you) have society and the legal system and the police system and the media every other system set up and run by and for the patriachy to defend them. I am not offended by you saying that I am prejudiced - it is a tiny drop in the ocean compared with the prejudice that women face every day in every area of their life.
Earwicga,
... and would you ever consider defending *a man*?
Please clarify your question smiley.
Earwicga,
In your reply to Steven, you stated that "men (and you) have society and the legal system [...]to defend them."
I happen to disagree with you, but that is beside the point.
When you say men (plural), you are talking about a group of human beings. Each member of that group is a man (singular).
Now, my questio is this: if you witnessed an (individual) man being attacked (in any way), would you consider taking his side? Yes or no?
If you say 'no', then I am worried! If you say 'yes, of course', then would you consider that a group of such men might merit being defended?
(Maybe we are being sidetracked here, but I am tempted to see in your comments the not unusual habit of judging a group by its most unsavoury individuals. Prove me wrong!)
I have no intention of proving you wrong. Men have been involved with feminism since it's inception and yet women are still treated as a sub-species of humanity. Just look at what is currently happening to the women of Congo. I am not interested in your semantics or feelings, or any man's either. Get with it and see past the flannel and do something for women!
Wow. This is one of the stupidest comments I've ever read on this site. Congratulations.
PS- The "women of the Congo" are far more different from you than the average first-world man. Thus, as you apparently blame said men for said situation, you also share in the blame.
Why are they different?
Well, I suppose I worded this badly. Their [i]situation[/i] is far more different from yours (as a first-world woman) then yours is from the average first-world male. Both of those groups have huge amounts of privilege. You're attempting to include yourself among the "victims" when in fact you are among the suppsed perpetrators (according to your logic).
Well, I suppose I worded this badly. Their *situation* is far more different from yours (as a first-world woman) then yours is from the average first-world male. Both of those groups have huge amounts of privilege. You're attempting to include yourself among the "victims" when in fact you are among the suppsed perpetrators (according to your logic).
I can't make sense of your comment. The use of 'first world' is not nice.
I do not see myself as far removed from the women of the Congo. Do you have any idea about war and how it is waged against women? Ok, if you want to talk about the Western world, do you have any idea of how women are controlled by rape? Do you have any idea what happened during the break-up of Yugoslavia? Do you have any idea about anything?
OK, guy. If you want to believe that your situation is comparable with... well, *anyone* in the undeveloped world, you go right ahead. If you want to believe you are "controlled" by rape, go right ahead and think that. If you want to believe you have anything whatsoever in common with the "women on the Congo" in terms of status and oppression, go right ahead.
You're living in La La Land, of course, but hey, no skin off my back.
Its ok, totally minimize your own prejudice, the own darkness in yo heart.
Way to turn it around and fail to look at yourself.
'Cause it is totally not ok when dudes do the same... But you get to be sexist.
The notion that girls shoudn't be left behind might be founded on the idea that women are dependent on men. And that is a distinctly non-feminist principle.
But the fact is that you don't know exactly whether that is true for this guy. He might be -- as kandela wisely pointed out -- using that statement to try to get to know you better, or something else entirely. I would feel out his motives a little better, but until then, assume the best. Good for you by the way for running with the boys team!
Hey while his statement was kind of anti-feminist I don't think this guys intentions were in the wrong place. I think a lot of guys would just be ashamed to come out and say upfront that they want to be a cheerleader for you. Sometimes what we forget is that men are hurt by the patriarchy too, NEVER as much as women are but I seriosly don't think that they benefit from being told that they must always be strong and tough and all of that bullshit either. Take it as a compliment that he wants to do something like that for you and if he makes sexist comments again kindly point out that they aren't necessary and its okay for him to want to run with you ect. That always works for me at least.
"...I really don't know how to feel about it thought- because he did help me out during the run, but like the fact that he thought I'd be unsafe a few feet behind. I don't know if I'm stuck in traditional ways thinking he was a gentleman for doing that."
Don't give yourself a guilt trip for liking what he did.
It's a bit like when a man I don't know opens a door for me in public. If I was another man would he have done that? I usually don't know. Do I still like it when a man opens a door for me? Yes...but I also like it when a woman, intersex adult, or kid opens a door for me, so it's not my being stuck in a "men should open doors for women" traditional way. Likewise, would I have opened the door for him if I had got to the door first instead? Sure (in fact, I do that for people regardless of gender and age).
Now enough about me and back to you! My guess is you're not stuck in traditional ways, because you didn't say that if he was another girl also practicing before September you'd have thought she was rudely unladylike for doing that instead of still appreciating it.
i really didn't think that he was worried about my feelings before, but that does make sense. A thing that i didnt include in my entry was that a week before a different girl ran with them, and she also fell behind the group, and a different boy slowed down for her. I don't know if their taking turns slowing down, like their all expected to take a turn, or he truly did it out of kindness. The boy is actually a friend of mine- and he even texted me today and asked if i was going to run with them. Now, i feel like i was overthinking the whole senario. lol. But i dont know enough about gender roles to know what men are expected to do, and when they do actions out of their own interest.
i really didn't consider that he was worried about my feelings before, but that does make sense. A thing that i didnt include in my entry was that a week before a different girl ran with them, and she also fell behind the group, and a different boy slowed down for her. I don't know if their taking turns slowing down, like their all expected to take a turn, or he truly did it out of kindness. The boy is actually a friend of mine- and he even texted me today and asked if i was going to run with them. Now, i feel like i was overthinking the whole senario. lol. But i dont know enough about gender roles to know what men are expected to do, and when they do actions out of their own interest.
"But i dont know enough about gender roles to know what men are expected to do, and when they do actions out of their own interest."
A lot of the time, neither do they. ;-) Just treat kindness with kindness, and expect as much respect as you give. You'll be fine.
Kasha, I'd like to suggest you go to your local library and start reading some feminism texts. Not the new girly stuff with pink covers, but actual feminism.