Recently, there have been a lot of posts in the feminist blogosphere about rape jokes. I'm someone who long ago came to the conclusion that no topic should be universally excluded from humor, including topics that are serious and painful. I suppose this belief comes from the fact that humor is often used as a way of coping with pain.
When I became aware of the fact that most other feminists regard rape jokes as inherently wrong, I struggled to understand why.
Here I think a bit of background information is necessary. I grew up very sheltered from rape culture. I grew up around people who recognized the horror of rape, regardless of whether it was perpetrated by a stranger in a dark ally or by ones spouse. There was never any victim blaming. Rape was understood as an act of violence where "sex" was a weapon that had nothing in common with consensual sex. These understandings were considered self-evident and non-controversial. I was totally unaware of rape culture until I began actively researching rape, domestic violence, and the history of womens rights in the US. (This is not to imply that women are the only victims of rape or domestic violence, only that they are disproportionately impacted by it.)
My friends all grew up as sheltered as I did, and occasionally would make rape jokes. The only particular one I remember was "It's not rape if you yell 'surprise sex!' first." When we laughed, we were laughing at the absurdity of the idea that yelling "surprise sex" makes any sort of difference. Of course its still rape, how could anyone possibly be stupid enough to think otherwise?
So, I started reading some of the many feminist blog posts out there, to try to understand why rape jokes are considered so universally wrong. I understood that rape jokes can be triggering to rape victims, and that given how common rape is and how stigmatizing it is for victims, it's never possible to know who is a victim and who isn't; however, the criticism was regardless of whether the joke triggered someone or not.
The first thing I realized, is that the jokes in question were all very different in nature than the one I just described. These jokes usually involved laughing at rape threats or laughing at rape victims. (i.e. "I'm going to rape that bitch! Isn't that fucking hilarious?")
Because I grew up so sheltered, I had never really been exposed to jokes like these, and I certainly had no idea how common they are. I didn't grow up in a situation where jokes like this were normal, so these jokes immediately struck me as offensive. My first thought was simplistic:
That's not funny, thats just mean. Anyone who has ever been taunted as a child (i.e. everyone), understands that jokes can be used as a form intimidation and demoralization, so why are rape jokes like these not recognized as such?This got more complicated when I considered rape jokes that don't target any particular individual and rape jokes that take place in fictional settings. No one's really getting hurt, so that should make it OK, right?
It's just a joke right?
The only way I could make sense of this, was to compare it to other forms of comic violence.
Like many children, I enjoyed watching violent cartoons. The characters in most of these cartoons were animals. As a thought experiment, I imagined the cartoons with humans instead. The cartoons still seemed funny, though not quite as much so. Then, I took the experiment a step further. I imagined the cartoons with an aggressor and a victim who is a member of a group that suffers from violence and discrimination. A white person beating a black person, a straight person beating a gay person, a man beating a woman, etc.
As soon as I did this, the humor vanished and was replaced with a visceral feeling of disgust. I could not separate this imagined violence from the very real violence that occurs today. I can't imagine watching a cartoon of a straight man beating a gay man without feeling as though the cartoon is condoning violence and hatred against gay people, even though I can watch other violent cartoons without feeling like the cartoon is condoning violence and hatred in general. If we lived in a post-homophobic society perhaps I could have viewed the victims sexual orientation as coincidental, or even if it was intentional perhaps I could have viewed it without feeling like it condoned real life hatred and violence towards gay people. But we don't live in a post-homophobic society.
So, whats the difference between rape jokes and other jokes involving violence? Context.
As long as we live in a rape culture, there is no separating rape jokes from real rape.
I'm now realizing that my inability to understand other feminists on this issue was due to my privilege of being raised without rape culture affecting me. Even though I'm a woman, I have a lot of the same privilege as the the people that make and laugh at these jokes.
Despite my reading on the topic, there is one thing that still is not clear to me. Where does satire fit into all this? The "surprise sex" joke? What about jokes that make fun of rapists or rape culture?
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hmm. My only experience with the "surprise sex" joke is some people who in my dorm back in college had this routine where one of them would hug the other one from behind and the person being hugged would yell "rape! rape! help! rape!" and the person hugging would be like "no no it's surprise sex" and they would laugh.
To me that routine was making fun of rape survivors, but I see how the way you and your friends were using it is different.
I think that rape jokes, used in a way that makes fun of rape and rape culture, can be okay. You just have to be careful to make sure that everyone involved (everyone listening) is in on the satire. Make sure that everybody understands that what you're actually saying is anti-rape, and make sure nobody is uncomfortable or will be triggered.
And that's hard. You don't necessarily know that nobody has been touched by rape, even if they say they haven't been, because rape is a hard thing to talk about. It's possible that somebody could be extremely uncomfortable and not feel safe talking about why.
I guess what I'm saying is that it's OK in theory but very complicated in practice. Especially because even a joke that is satire runs the risk of making light of the violence that rape actually is.
When humor is used as a coping mechanism to ease the pain of traumatic things, that is generally a good thing, because usually:
- everybody agrees that the traumatic thing is bad
- everybody understands what the traumatic thing is
- the traumatic thing is unavoidable or touches everybody roughly equally (for example: death).
In this case, there is no risk in lightening up the cultural associations with that thing. In fact, it's generally positive to help society as a whole be less afraid of something like death. Rape is different. Not everybody understands rape or agrees that it's bad. Rape is avoidable and should be prevented. Rape does not touch everybody equally. By using humor to lighten the cultural associations with rape, you are contributing to an atmosphere where rape is not taken seriously, even in your own mind, even if you personally believe rape is bad. I think that satire, even satire that makes fun of rape culture, still runs the risk of making light of rape.
A good satire rape joke would be one, after hearing it, that makes you go "ha ha ha. Ohh. oh. fuck. It just hit me. Rape is terrible. I am sad now." A good satire of rape culture would remind everybody just how pervasive and damaging rape culture is.
I hope this thread doesn't get overrun by people who came here to make trouble. You're asking a good question.
For the record, even as a feminist, I sometimes engage in humor that would make me cringe under any other context, and I do it because I know the context is "safe." Everybody knows what I stand for, they know I'm not being serious, and nobody is going to take it the wrong way. There is fun in being completely inappropriate. The problem is when you do it without regard for the consequences (for you, your friends, and society).
I was going to say exactly what Sabriel said and they said it much better than I would have. Interesting post.
"When humor is used as a coping mechanism to ease the pain of traumatic things, that is generally a good thing, because usually:
- everybody agrees that the traumatic thing is bad
- everybody understands what the traumatic thing is
- the traumatic thing is unavoidable or touches everybody roughly equally (for example: death).
In this case, there is no risk in lightening up the cultural associations with that thing. In fact, it's generally positive to help society as a whole be less afraid of something like death. Rape is different. Not everybody understands rape or agrees that it's bad. Rape is avoidable and should be prevented. Rape does not touch everybody equally. By using humor to lighten the cultural associations with rape, you are contributing to an atmosphere where rape is not taken seriously, even in your own mind, even if you personally believe rape is bad. I think that satire, even satire that makes fun of rape culture, still runs the risk of making light of rape."
this is an excellent point. thanks.
"By using humor to lighten the cultural associations with rape, you are contributing to an atmosphere where rape is not taken seriously, even in your own mind, even if you personally believe rape is bad. I think that satire, even satire that makes fun of rape culture, still runs the risk of making light of rape.
A good satire rape joke would be one, after hearing it, that makes you go "ha ha ha. Ohh. oh. fuck. It just hit me. Rape is terrible. I am sad now." A good satire of rape culture would remind everybody just how pervasive and damaging rape culture is...There is fun in being completely inappropriate. The problem is when you do it without regard for the consequences (for you, your friends, and society)."
This. Beautifully said.
The problem with rape jokes is that many shows and movies--like the Seth MacFarlane cartoons, Robot Chicken, "Frat Pack" movies and so on--or, rather, the audience of these immensely popular comedies, are unable to distinguish between real subversion and "hahaha that's funny, they made a controversial joke." That's not to knock people who watch these comedies; I watch and like them. But the audience isn't just made up of people like me, who see the humour in (however feeble) subversion. These movies and shows appeal to a demographic that won't recognize the jokes as satire or subversion. When Peter on Family Guy makes jokes about offering to "let" people rape his daughter for the return of a favour--and yes, he is to be taken as serious--you're supposed to think "Wow, what a shitty father, selling out his kid like that. How funny is it that for some people in our society, that kind of attitude is prevalent." It's supposed to be satirical about the way society treats rape; it's supposed to be subversive. But it comes across to many viewers as, I think, "Hahaha, no one loves Meg enough to give a shit about her safety"--suddenly it's a crack against Meg, not Peter or the would-be rapist. That's where rape jokes go wrong; if they're not overtly subversive, they're dangerous.
I'm not of the mind to say that Family Guy is too popular with the socially-ignorant crowd to make rape jokes or anything, because I think that's along the same lines as telling Britney Spears she can't sing about sex because her fan base has a lot of little kids. She can sing what she wants, and FG can go on making jokes about rape. But I think it's perfectly reasonable to call out Seth Macfarlane to strive for more subversion in these jokes; it's NOT rape that is funny. It's NOT rapists and rape victims that are funny. The legal system that protects rapists, the constant blaming of the victims, the culture that surrounds rape--these things can be laughed at, and should, because humour is so effective to highlight social issues. But crossing the line into making jokes about how Meg deserves to be raped because everyone hates her, and doing it under full knowledge that your audience will perceive the entitlement as the funny thing, will perceive Meg's worhtlessness as the funny thing, knowing your audience will laugh at Meg and not Peter; that is contributing to rape culture, not satirizing it.
I agree that nothing should be completely off limits to humor, but rape should be handled carefully.
Interesting post. It was very useful to see your thought process with this jokes and how your perceptions of them changed over time.
Satire is a tricky thing, especially with controversial topics. There is a thin line in satire between bringing (sexist, racist, etc) attitudes to light and enforcing them. The Onion manages this particularly well.
Most rape "jokes" I hear, though, are never satire and are almost always at the expense of the victim or women in general.
As for jokes like the "surprise sex" one, that still makes me nervous because i don't see it as satire and you never know how someone overhearing the joke is going to internalize it. Some may be angered, some may laugh at its absurdity in the way your friends have, but some may think it is a good point--and THAT belief is what contributes to rape culture--reinforcing the fucked up idea that rape isn't ever really rape because all women always want "sex."
"Satire is a tricky thing, especially with controversial topics. There is a thin line in satire between bringing (sexist, racist, etc) attitudes to light and enforcing them."
true. and even well crafted satire isn't always recognized as satire by the people its making fun of.
Indeed. Some people even took Swift at face value when he proposed that children of the poor, in their first year, be slaughtered, eaten and made into gloves for ladies (http://www.eliteskills.com/c/5267).
The thing about irony, I think, is that it should not be attempted casually unless laced with heavily sarcastic tones.
The thing with all dark humour (and even some not-dark humour) is you have to know your audience. Everyone has different triggers and different levels of comfort. Even the same joke can get different reactions depending on who it's coming from. This applies to rape jokes, race jokes, ethnic jokes, whatever.
I'd laugh at jokes that mocked the rapist, but most of them seem to laugh at the victim. The few exceptions i can think of are actually from cartoons (which you mentioned in your post). One was the South Park where NAMBLA came to town and the naked men chased the boys around a hotel trying to rape them. The attempted rapists are the ones who are portrayed as sick and pathetic, unable to control themselves, and ultimately foolish. At the end where they get caught, one of them tries to play the tolerance card saying how they're just "persecuted for being different", and Kyle bluntly states "Dude, you have sex with children." as if no more needs to be said.
The other thing I can think of is old Betty Boop cartoons where some lech attempts to rape her, usually so the dog or clown characters can come to her rescue (I'd love to see her take on the rapist herself, but it was the 30's. What can you do?) Much of the slapstick in these involves the rapist character (usually a dirty old man or a big moustached lug) getting his comeuppance. Not exactly side-splitting, but it's understood that the attempted rapist is the villain and the one we're supposed to laugh at.
The only thing with the South Park example (and this from someone who hasn't seen it), is that it seems more about child molesters/rapists than about those who rape adults or teenagers. Most people agree raping children is horrible. When it comes to grown or nearly-grown women or men, reactions are much more varied. So honestly, I'm not even sure I'd count that example even though it falls under the category of rape.
I think the 'surprise sex' joke is off because it equates rape with sex, a connection that a lot of survivors and feminists work really hard to break down.
As someone who is a survivor of rape I would be horrified and distressed if someone made that joke around me, even if they were a close friend. There is a modicum of blame within the joke and the joke is directed at the victim of the assault. To me it just says: 'hey, person who was raped, don't you get it, it was just surprise sex'. Considering the varying emotional impacts rape has on people I don't think it's safe to ever make this joke, because you won't always know the experiences of everyone around you and how they're going to interpret it or feel about it. Even if the intention of the joke is obvious it still might cause a negative thought process for a survivor, and my thinking is it is better to just always avoid this.
I guess wider context doesn't always matter, to me with this kind of stuff, it's more about each individuals personal context.
There is nothing that can take the seriousness out of rape, not even jokes. Rape jokes are no different then jokes that are about murder, torture, assault etc. They probably shouldn't be told in the presense of certain individuals, i.e. victims but there is a time and place for dark humor.
We cant exactly walk around on egg shells for the rest of our lives, hoping not to offend anyone. Because when you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one.
There is nothing to say you have to like what the person is saying or even share the sense of humor. But putting all these stigmas and barriers around certain topics is just a slippery road to censorship.
"There is nothing that can take the seriousness out of rape, not even jokes. Rape jokes are no different then jokes that are about murder, torture, assault etc."
But there is a difference: the context in which the jokes take place.
People laugh at jokes for a variety of reasons, but two of the more common reasons is that the joke is completely absurd, or that the the audience perceives there to be some grain of truth.
Murder and assault are widely and culturally understood to be wrong.
If someone jokes about getting mad at a friend and wanting to murder him, its universally understood that they don't really want to kill him. That's what makes it funny.
Rape on the other hand is much more accepted by society, and rape jokes tend to operate more on the grain of truth mechanism.
If someone jokes about how a how if a woman didn't want to be raped, she probably shouldn't have been wearing that skimpy dress and flirting with that guy, a lot of people are going to be laughing because they agree.
Jokes like that are wrong because they serve to reinforce rape culture.
You would be hard press to find someone who thinks rape is a good thing.
There is not a grain of truth in any rape jokes, how can there be? Nobody in their right mind would believe that had a girl not been flirting or wearing a skimpy dress that she wouldn't have been raped.
It doesn't reinforce any sort or rape culture or on a person's ability to commit rape.
It is what it is: Dark comedy & definatly NOT for everyone. Nothing more.
"Nobody in their right mind would believe that had a girl not been flirting or wearing a skimpy dress that she wouldn't have been raped.
It doesn't reinforce any sort or rape culture or on a person's ability to commit rape."
Hooooly Shit.
No body in their right mind. Except like...judges and juries and friends and family members of people this has actually happened to. Wow. How naive.
Several people I told about my assault responded with "Well, what were you wearing?" I guess I only seem to be able to be around people outside of their minds.
I don't think I could have said it better.
Serafino - It's great that you wouldn't blame a victim for their own rape, but a lot of people would. You are seriously naive about sexual assault and need to educate yourself.
Yer i'll get right on to it. Back to the orginal topic at hand, however, about rape jokes have no effect on the number of actual rapes. Myself as an example, have told a couple of rape jokes as well as chuckled at a few and guess what: I didn't want to rape anybody or hold anybody resposible for their own rape.
I really am sorry Kate that people blame you for what happened, but do you really think jokes had any affect on the way those people thought or how they thought of you? If so, then you must think that jokes about violence and assault will have the same impact.
Studies have shown that when people joke about something, it changes their attitudes, because the jokes (and associated laughter) reinforce their beliefs. For example, if you're around people who make sexist jokes, and make them yourself to a receptive audience, you become more sexist. So jokes about rape do have an impact on the way people think and increase the blame they put on the victim.
However, violence is understood to be wrong by (nearly) everyone, so jokes about it wouldn't have such a significant effect on people's attitudes. (Although some psychologists think that the amount of violence people see in the media is desensitising people to violence, resulting in the idea of violence having less effect than it used to, and potentially making people more violent. But that's a different topic.)
Instead of sassing, maybe you should take ElanaFulana's suggestion and educate yourself a little more on sexual assault. Or just read the other posts on this thread, as many of them already answer the questions you pose on why rape jokes and jokes on other serious topics are different.
What do you think terms like "rape culture" describe if not a culture in which rape is desensitized and made unimportant through simple, every day interactions, such as jokes?
People can justify just about any joke they find amusing - whether it's about paedophilia, racism, sexism or rape...but at the end of the day, some things just aren't funny. 'Making a joke' of something does just that. There's a real difference between a victim finding a lighter side to something as a coping mechanism, and a common 'joke' shared amongst the community. Surely our intellect has evolved enough to determine what's really humourous. There are so many other things we can laugh about. Let's not laugh at rape - ever.
What about references to rape in other contexts? For example: Sporting ones like "this team is getting raped by the other" ?
I struggle with my feelings on such uses of the word rape. Is is okay because when people say it they really mean 'assault in a sporting sense' or are they making light of a horrific act by using it in such a casual sense?
"or are they making light of a horrific act by using it in such a casual sense?"
Yes to this, in my opinion.
Finally someone is starting to see my point, you can make a joke about it without making fun of the victim.
I'm not sure about using the word "rape" metaphorically when the subjects are people, but I do occasionally use and hear the word "rape" used metaphorically to describe the environment - such as a vandalized public space or disorganized back yard - and I don't see anything inappropriate with this sort of use. Does anyone?
Well no, but this is a common occurrence in the evolution of English. Very specific words pretty much always come to have a broader sense over a period of time. It's a result of people seeking strong metaphors for emphasis. There isn't actually anything sinister in it, nobody is trying to de-emphasise rape's horribleness. Consider, for instance, that I can murder my shot at goal in a soccer game. Same type of thing.
I just wanted to muse on the cartoon violence for a second. In particular I'm thinking of the types of cartoons that involve cats and dogs, and birds and cats. In these cartoons the animal we would 'in nature' expect to be the victim, always wins and demoralises the predator.
I wonder, if this was reversed, would we still find it funny? Probably not. Who would want to watch a cartoon where the cat gets the mouse, or the dog the cat, etc?
I think this says something about our society's victim/perpetrator mentality. In particular that it's ok to laugh and make fun of the 'dominant' group.
Perhaps this explains why it is seemingly ok to have TV ads for cleaning products that seem to universally espouse they are 'so simple a man could use them;' or why society at large is even less sympathetic in the rare instances when a man is the victim of domestic violence; or why it is apparently funny to see a man kicked in the groin but not a woman.
If I have a point (and I'm not sure I do, this is just musing basically) it'd be that we seem to be ok with humour that tears down the dominant group and makes them look stupid. But is this ok, is it a way of gaining equality? Or are the consequences for individuals in the group just as ghastly as they are when we make fun of the oppressed group?
I recently heard Seth MacFarlane refer to Glenn Quagmire as, "a rapist" - and that surprised me because I didn't think he knew the depth of that character's "wrongness". We're supposed to think of Quagmire as a nutty sex-crazed neighbor who gets all the chicks; but he has a rape-machine in his lake house, a blow-job chair in his motor home and a dozen Asian girls locked up in his garage. ha ha.
Also, the episode where Lois runs for mayor (besides having the rape machine "gag") is also the ep where Officer Joe Swanson tells a rape victim that if she doesn't vote for Lois he will suggest that she had been drinking when she was raped. Not sure how to take this "humor" - is he pointing out how law enforcement is corrupt? Joe is supposed to be a Good Guy.