We've heard the arguments before on how porn culture degrades and objectifies women. Each time the subject comes up, there are those claiming to be "pro-sex feminists" who will come to the defense of pornography, and deny that it contributes to a culture of misogyny, as if those of us who are against pornography's depiction of women are anti-sex, or that we are befriending Christian conservatives who view sex as taboo, and only to be practiced within marriage.
Today, I want to explore a different side of the argument of why pornography is harmful - and rather than echoing the arguments of misogyny, I'll write on how pornography hurts men. This is, by no means, to ask "what about the men?" Rather, it is to point out that even as consumers of pornography, and even through the objectification of women in pornography, men hurt themselves.
"When I get home, I am going to fuck that pussy raw.""I love the sounds a chick makes when she's sucking cock and really likes it."
"I am going to bend her over and fuck her from behind ..."
Those are the things I am hearing each time a soldier and I sit down and talk about what he misses most about being away from home - that for many of these young soldiers, even those in relationships, what the miss most is sex and not the intimacy and human-to-human connections of relationships. By this, I am, of course, not saying that there is anything wrong with yearning for or missing the physical feelings of sex, but it is undeniable that the comments are reflections of porn culture, which dictates sex is only mechanical, and removes all actual emotional intimacies and feelings sex can bring up.
In short, by associating relationships and sex as merely mechanical and physical, young men lose the ability to truly connect with their partners - and through the objectification of their partners, seeing them as merely body parts for pleasure, they also lose the humanity of sex.
While in the end, women become the objects, and are sometimes viewed and treated as such, is also hurts men as it renders them incapable of talking about their feelings. With each conversation - and this is not just strictly in the military, but overall with young men in a hyper-masculine culture, the purpose isn't to truly share feelings, but rather, to one-up another in competitions for masculinity. That is, even those who perhaps miss the tenderness of a lover's touch, or the experience of laying there and enjoying the quietness of the after -sex calm, talking about it is unacceptable.
For men, conversations about sex are strictly about mechanics, not feelings. Fearing being branded less "manly," men then live in a lie that neither enhances their lives nor allows them to be honest with themselves, the men around them, or the intimate partners in their lives. Being able to have a voice - to truly talk about one's experiences, is a central part of enhancing one's lives. It is the very tenets of empowering women - yet for men, even with the male privileges and entitlement of being heard, porn silences them, thereby taking away their power.
For these men, in dehumanizing women, they also dehumanize themselves - and I cannot help but see pornography and masculine culture as being responsible for the majority of their plights.
But the experiences of porn culture aren't just limited to Type-A personality young men. Even as early as two years ago, in my early 20s, I also experienced the negative effects of porn culture. While this more than likely hurt the women in my life more than it hurt me, I cannot help but think how my relationships were negatively affected by this, and by default, how those the failures of those relationships took away from the positive experiences I might have had with my intimate partners.
Back then, even as a feminist, I was a pornography user. For what it's worth, consider this the confessions of a former porn user. In school, I was active in both Democratic politics on and off campus, as well as being a part of my school's feminist organization. This is to say that I was known around campus, and would occasionally make speeches and appear at dinner functions. After each function, I've almost always got dates or requests to hang out. Yet, each time, even as we spent time together, my thoughts weren't focused on actually having a conversation or connecting on a human-to-human connection, but rather, whether or not I'd get the chance at sex with these women. As a result, my relationships moved quickly, and also crashed quickly.
One particular encounter made me realize how porn culture had affected me: I was out at a bar, and talking to a woman I'd hung out with a few times. As the night progress, we began becoming physical closer, and we eventually left and came back to her place. As things heated up, and I received consent, I said, "Tell me what you want."
"Just kiss me," she whispered. I was disappointed. In asking her the question, I didn't so much want to hear what SHE actually wanted, but rather, for her to utter the things that pornography actresses often say. I wanted to hear her ask to be fucked harder and tell me how much she is enjoying in. Rather than enjoying the intimacy and human-to-human connection, I was disappointed because I'd been conditioned to expect something else entirely in sex, through pornography. By telling us what sex is, pornography also tells us what sex isn't, and worst, that unless sex is rough, dirty, and the way pornography depicts, it really isn't worth it.
We ended up stopping, and I went home, and I spent the night thinking about the ill-effects of porn. That day, I began my journey to break free of porn culture.
I take responsibilities for all my actions, but I do wonder, had I not been conditioned to view women through pornography culture and sex objects, how many of those women would still remain in my life, what I could have learned from them, and how we could have enhanced each other's lives in the process. By viewing sex through pornographic lens, I hurt women in my life as well as myself.
But what if pornography can help us? After all, couples have been known to use pornography to spice up their relationships, and to get a dying marriage jumpstarted again. While there is no doubt that pornography can be used as a springboard for a sexual relationship, what isn't talked about is why couples feel a relationship can be salvaged by Jenna Jamison, Ron Jeremy or anyone in the pornography industry. If a relationship is dying, it's probably going to take more than a facial or anal sex to salvage it - it takes getting intimately connected with one's partners, something pornography does not offer. What pornography does offer, however, are expectations of one's partners - how a partner should act, look, and feel. Over time, I would guess the use of pornography does more harm than good to a relationship, for both women and men. After all, sex is neither the most important about a relationship, nor should it define a relationship. Sex is great, whether with or without love, but in the end, it's a very small part of the human experience.
Finally, the sex industry, whether pornography or prostitution, tells men they are not good enough - that their only values is in how much money they can produce to buy women. Yes, while women are hurt by pornography in that they are turned into objects, being able to be bought and sold, men are hurt in that they are rendered incapable of truly finding intimacies, and that neither their character, intelligence nor values are good enough to find them sex, but that they have to buy sex with their own money. If it weren't for money, pornography says, men wouldn't be able to get laid.
I write all this not to say that each time we have sex, we must have an emotional connection to the other person, or that each session has to be lovemaking. What I am saying, however, is the pornography limits our perceptions of what sex is, and how we should do as well as what we should feel, and as a result, limits us from growing as people, and from being ourselves, as both women and men.
Thoughts? Personal experiences?
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Hmmm... I think of porongraphy purely as fantasy, whether I'm partaking by myself or with a partner. After I was raped, I completely turned off of porn that featured bondage or non-consent, because for me that wasn't fantasy; it was the reality of what I'd been through. Actually, I considered my return to porn a sign of recovery from my assault, even though the porn I was attracted to was very different than what I liked pre-assault.
I tend to think of porn as more a symptom of patriarchal culture, rather than the cause. (I'm referring to the "bend her over" comments you cite.) Certainly there were men who honestly believed that "sex = penetrate something until I cum" well before the invention of VHS or the Internet.
I don't see anything wrong with sexually mature adults seeking out erotica that turns them on. I think the problem comes when sexually inexperienced people watch porn and assume that sex is always supposed to be like that - everyone's hairless, lots of pounding, women orgasm multiple times purely from penetration, men are hugely endowed. If watching porn were one's only frame of reference, I could see how that would be harmful. When I watch that kind of porn, all I can think is how not fun it makes sex look. The reality is sometimes messy, sometimes goofy... and not necessarily something I'd want to video tape!
My apologies for being rambly. I really appreciate you examining this issue critically.
You're not rambling - I appreciate your testimonies and honesty.
I do wonder, though: just how much are we affected by pornography, in general? And to what degree can we break out sexuality from pornography, having grown up in the digital porn age?
I am sure my mom and dad got down and such - but I doubt the thought of a facial crossed either one of their minds.
I really do wonder what sex would be like for us had we not been exposed to porn. :)
"I think of porongraphy purely as fantasy... After I was raped, I completely turned off of porn that featured bondage or non-consent, because for me that wasn't fantasy; it was the reality of what I'd been through."
I think that the way you start your comment is really telling. A common comment is that porn is just fantasy, but as you start to say - it's not. The reality is not only that the storylines depicted in pornography actually happen in real life, but also that the actual images DID happen at one time to the actors and actresses in the porn. When watching a money shot - it's not imaginary. Some young woman actually got a face full of ejaculate. That really happened and we need to realize that in order to understand pornography as a true event.
RE: couples who use porn to spice up their marriage.
I don't think that a couple with a boring sex life necessarily has problems anymore than I think that a couple with a great sex life must have a great relationship. And if bored in bed is the problem, then yeah, porn and costumes and anal really are the solution.
And let's not pretend that a boring sex life is only a small annoyance -- it can end an otherwise healthy relationship. And often, it should. Two people who aren't sexually compatible probably shouldn't be together. If porn helps them find new things that they're both interested in, that's a good thing.
I find it interesting that pornography is treated so differently from other forms of art, even those that objectify women sexually. This post is very different from the recent post about vampires, and I don't think it's just because the author is different; both are what one would expect from feminists posting about their respective topics. I'm not sure why pornography deserves to have such different standards applied to it.
Speaking for myself, I'd have to say that I never particularly expected any of my sexual experiences to be like porn, and was never bothered or disappointed that they weren't. Indeed, I wouldn't have wanted them to be; for me, sexual fantasies are much like other forms of fiction, where I often enjoy seeing people and situations I'd never want to be or be in. I really don't think I'm extraordinary in this respect, but perhaps I'm wrong.
I find it interesting that pornography is treated so differently from other forms of art, even those that objectify women sexually
Me too, but in a different way. I find the critique of racism in mainstream porn to generally fly under the radar compared with other content, objectifying or not.
I am sure my mom and dad got down and such - but I doubt the thought of a facial crossed either one of their minds.
Who knows, maybe it did cross a mind or two. But maybe it might have been reciprocal, like, "let me sit on your face and then you sit on mine", fluids notwithstanding... :)
My personal experience with pornography and relationships, and being in the same age bracket but of different experience than your soldiers, lead me down a different path.
I find that pornography is something which doesn't affect me in the ways in which you've described. I don't have a sexual encounter and expect it to be like that awesome scene I saw replicated in countless films. I don't expect him to look like Falcon Studios or Colt Models. Or moan and scream about whatever like some sort of deranged laugh track.
I think that what you may be experiencing from these soldiers is what they think you want them to tell you. While I've never personally been in the military, I have known people who have served, as recently as 4 years ago. Their experiences told me that any machoism found in the outside world is really amplified within the military culture.
I'm not saying that I doubt that your soldiers miss sex. I'm sure they very much do. But, I think your soldiers don't want to lose face in the presence of another man. Keeping it macho and masculine (after all, the military is there to protect with violence if necessary) is survival as much as who is attracted to the military. Your soldiers may not want to admit that they miss laying in bed with their girlfriends/wives and feeling their warmth. They miss date night on Wednesdays when they'd pick something different to do and try something new every day. They miss just the feeling of their SO's lips when they kiss when they both get home from work.
These things are feminine and soft. They'd threaten the masculinity of the soldier. He'd be weak and the "fag". Even in situations of confidentiality, it's so ingrained in these men to always be rough, masculine and tough that their response is "fucking her hard and hearing her moan", even if the real answer is "listening to her breathe when I wake up for work while she's still sleeping."
Those sentiments go home in the letters to those SO's. It's always been that way.
While there's something to do said for the damaging effect of porn on culture, I wouldn't necessarily turn to the military to really exemplify that ideal. There's too many other factors muddying the view, as far as I can tell.
Gular - I absolutely get what you need. Yet, I cannot ignore the link between a culture of masculinity, in which young men (soldiers or not) one-up one another in talking about sex, for fear of looking weak.
While this is bad for women - it's also bad for men, in that they've always got to be guarded against one another, and are unable to be theselves.
Contrary to the beliefs of some very slow posters on this topic, I am by no means saying that everything has to be about love and peace and feelings. I am saying that porn creates a hypermasculine culture that prevents men from being themselves without feeling threatened.
As I said, I think you are onto something, however I think you may be over attributing one thing as the problem.
I, personally, think the aggressiveness in porn follows more into societally prescribed ways in which men and women should act. It goes into progamming from childhood -- boys should play competitive sports, run jump and get dirty, boys should recreate car races and see who's the best at everything. It all asserts an aggressiveness and an obsession with masculinity that's created, to a certain extent, the porn culture. I feel it's an extention of that.
Can porn further exaggerate this? Certainly it can, but I think the true symptoms of the problems happen much earlier than the time pubic hair shows up, and the awkward gangly phase.
As you can probably tell, I'm one of those pro-porn, pro-sex people and I think porn is often set up for the fall.
Taking my masculinity example to the reverse, girls are taught to be passive through their early play experiences. Their imaginative games are supposed to be about cooking and cleaning, even when they do something active, it's Barbie that's really zooming in her ferrari. She's not supposed to be pretending to do it wheile zooming on her own bike. It's breeds the culture of passivity for women. They're supposed to be the watchers of the men's masculinity. Anything else would screw it all up.
Which is reflected in porn. Women are the ones who "take it" and "want more of it".
I'm not in agreeance with the posters who're accusing you of being too "kumbaya", if you will.
I just think, with your introspection, you also need to ask yourself "if the tables were turned, would I say this so someone who (I'm assuming) is my superior? or would I want to appear tough, masculine, ready and in line with unit culture?" The zeitgeist can be a powerful thing to contend with, especially when the zeitgeist can mean life or death.
So, all in all, I do definitely understand where you're coming from and agree to a certain extent, however I think that we attribute the causes of it to different things.
I was actually starting to piece together my thoughts on what I was talking about (passivity vs activity) in a bigger post about gender roles in childhood and how the affect out into every day life through adulthood.
You're right on the money, Gular.
I'm a construction worker - a work world that is as close to the armed services as any civilian job save for policing or firefighting - and I can tell you, there is a huge premium on being "macho" in our business.
So nobody is going to talk about their sweet and tender feelings for a woman - it's going to be all about the raw dog fucking.
That machismo is a defense mechanism for dealing with fear and danger - it's magnified in the armed services cause those kids are just so damned YOUNG - every army in the world is built on the back of teenagers with machine guns, America's included, and those kids have to pump up an ideal of toughness to survive on the battlefield.
It's not just the porno - cause I'm sure Iraqi Army soldiers - and insurgents, for that matter - act just as tough and macho, and they don't have access to porn!
Thank you Marc for the very interesting post. Women and men enter into relationship and soon stumble into disagreements based on sexuality.
Speaking about the phrases you’ve heard. I’d like to examine another part of this porn culture. I’m unsure if this is a cause or effect of pornography, but what about the language used in “dirty talk” during sex. You examine the way men reference wanting to have sex, but what about the comments they make to women while having sex. I am referring to typical words like slut, bitch, whore, or other dominating language (you get what I mean). What about the effect that has on relationships?
The more I have read on the subject, the more I found women agreeing and describing being called such words a turn-on. That such words are not demeaning because they are used only in the bedroom. I have also found women who completley disagree and are having personal problems with their bfs or husbands because althought their lovers have agreed not to, they ultimately still find it a turn-on. Isn’t this dividing and severly affecting our level of compatibilities?
How does such a damaging word suddenly become a turn on? I don’t understand the “clear seperation” of during sex and in the relationship. Have women now accepted this porn culture as much as men? Or are some just simply saying they agree but subconscously feeling hurt and recentment? If the later, what is the solution if both can’t agree?
Anyone have any thoughts on the subject?
The more I have read on the subject, the more I found women agreeing and describing being called such words a turn-on. That such words are not demeaning because they are used only in the bedroom. I have also found women who completley disagree and are having personal problems with their bfs or husbands because althought their lovers have agreed not to, they ultimately still find it a turn-on. Isn’t this dividing and severly affecting our level of compatibilities?
This is a really good point. I've anecdotally heard that people ( men and women) like to be called racial epithets during sex--words that would be otherwise offensive in everyday conversation.
I suppose that there is a level of taboo involved. But then why is it so often (portrayed?) as one sided? Again speaking anecdotally, the times I've heard of someone using racist terms during sex they were using derogatory comments toward the person of color and not the other way around. Again anecdotal here...
Thank you Marc. I truly appreciate the honesty and time you put into this post.
I am an anti-porn feminist (and an atheist so it has nothing to do with religion) and I appreciate hearing a well thought out and kindred male perspective.
I just want to clarify a few things...
I am a female.
Just because I am anti-porn does not make me anti-sex. It seems as though as soon as you say that you are anti-porn people assume that you have some sort of problem with sex. While I cannot speak for everyone I have nothing against sex. Sex is awesome. I just simply have MANY issues with pornography.
I've taken issue with a great deal of sex therapists who advise masturbating to pornography as a replacement for having "promiscuous" sex. I, for one, would rather people went out and had real sexual experiences with other people.
This, of course, excludes sexual addiction. However, you will not be able to find a single sex therapist who would advise using pornography to supplement their addiction.
" I didn't so much want to hear what SHE actually wanted"
Most people, including women, aren't as selfless as you; they desire what makes them personally feel good. This selfishness cannot be attributed to pornography/
Speaking as one person who does see derogatory terms a turn-on (in consensual sexual situations only, mind you)--I think it is a way to take a word that is usually thrown at you without you having any real defenses and being able to control how it's used and taking ownership of it, so it loses it's power in real-life (of course in a sub-conscious sort of way).. Also as an abuse survivor it's also a way to take back control over that area of your life. But that's just me. I have to admit I didn't find it a turn-on before reading erotica though (I don't watch porn).
Marc--I appreciate this post and it's thoughtfulness!
Like any kind of media porn can influence people. A young person who has had little experience or education with sex would definitely be negatively influenced, simply because they have no other sources to draw from. Certainly sex education should include the lesson "Porn is not realistic!"
'Macho' culture simultaneously influences and is influenced by pornography, but porn is the only thing. The need to be masculine has many sources, and is reflected throughout society.
I think that ultimately one has to look at the actual content of a piece of media. Just because it is 'sexually explicit' doesn't mean it sexually objectifies, realistic depictions exist.
However main stream porn certainly exaggerates things, such that real sex pales in comparison; activities that please men are over emphasized; everybody is basically a nymphomaniac; and any mention of emotionally significant sex is utterly non-existent.
Though now I wonder: If mainstream does indeed sexually objectify women, what about amateur porn? or even websites like ifeelmyself.com or abbywinters.com which features women simply getting themselves off?
I am surprised at some of the comments here. Of course the masculine culture is all around us and does not focus entirely on porn.
But porn is a big part of it......
Porn culture does not show itself just in the army. It shows itself in most ways that men interact with women. Sex has become (through porn) play-acting for both men and women.
Porn is only edited highlights of real sex. And it is edited by a mysoginist culture (eg: when was the last time you saw a woman come in a porn film?)
There is nothing wrong with watching it - but let's not gloss over the damaging effects it can have and make it into something that is not created and affected by patriarchy. And I say this as someone who does on occasion, watch porn.
I know the effects it has had on me...and I have seen it in sexual partners (men, in my case). Some of them have almost felt that they should act rough and angry and brutal in sex because that's how you "do sex". They actually think that you would prefer it, sometimes.
And when you say that you would prefer to be treated with a little more respect...as a partner in sex....then you can almost hear the thoughts "ooooo - gentle sex, how girly"
It's like porn has taken away that middle ground of respectful sex. Like the only sex there can be is rough, hard, porn or "girly", soft sex (and the term "girly" sex has been used in my presence).
All media affects everyoe in some ways.....otherwise we would not be discussing it now.
What do we expect when some men (and women) are sexually matuirng in an age when porn images dominate tv, the internet and billboards all around us? We should expect that it will be damaging to them and to us and to future sex.
Thank you Marc.......a very insightful piece.
(eg: when was the last time you saw a woman come in a porn film?)
Ummm, every woman in every scene in every porn I've ever watched had an orgasm.....usually two or three. Usually that was where the majority of the focus of the scene was, on her orgasm....through manual stimulation, oral stimulation, penetration, vibration, by any means necessary. Once she cums a few times then it's just a matter of a few strokes for the guy to cum and the scene ends.
**** If this is a rant, I'm sorry - also, it is not my intention to imply an attack on any specific individual. I hope that's obvious, but if it's not, bear in mind that I'm doing the best I can to stay coherent, for the sake of my sisters out there. ****
I'll kick this off with a little-known fact:
Male performers in porn take Viagra.
Female performers take Xanax and vicoden.
That's right. Women take painkillers and tranquilizers like men take Viagra and for the same reason: to get through shoots. If you're one of those whose idea of porn requires a reference to the marginal extreme, realize first: PAINKILLERS and TRANQUILIZERS. If there's always an exception to every rule - when she was a little girl, did her mom want this for her?
I strongly recommend Robert Jensen's "Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity." Then try "The Porn Trap," it's all about the damage porn dishes to the men (and few women) suffer and inflict thanks to porn. Then take a trip down to iblamethepatriarchy.com and learn about the sex class from the spinster aunt.
Until then, everybody put on your thinking caps and settle down, cos this is a lesson on Sex Work 101. Guest lecturer: an industry expert. Me.
Do you need some evidence of pornography's horrible influence that you personally demonstrate?
Most stark is your personal utter failure to identify that what you are looking at is a woman, a real human being - the one on the screen. SHE IS THE PRIMARY VICTIM. Not the women in your lives, not the people around you - they're bystanders in this drive-by. What's the difference between "erotic stories" and pornography? EROTIC STORIES ARE IMAGINARY. The woman on the screen is not imaginary. She is not actually the character the script says. Her body is real, the things being done to her body are real. Those aren't special effects, CGI, or camera tricks. NONE OF IT IS MAKE-BELIEVE. The woman on the screen you're jacking off to is the victim. The men on the screen are hurting her and you are pleasuring yourself oblivious to, in spite of, or because of her pain.
Pain.
Not pleasure. Period. If you're ever confused about that, remember: painkillers and tranqs.
How do I know? I was an escort. One of the few, the privileged, the elite of the sexually enslaved. I was one of the lucky ones - because they were never tricks or johns or shoots, they were "clients" and the agency took a dim view of disfiguring its youthful, shapely, pretty, disease-free merchandise. I was property, but by virtue of advantages bestowed by fate that had nothing to do with me as a person - beauty, youth, and being a little white girl with all my teeth - I enjoyed a margin of safety against males through the threat of being blacklisted by the agency. I ended up doing speed to deal with it. Lots of it. Amphetamines are a powerful euphoric, and the ones you get from your doctor are the best. They also bestow intense powers of concentration and multitasking - allowing you to autopilot your way through an appointment, a client, a day, a life while concentrating on anything other than what's happening to you, right here, right now.
You will end up dissociated, traumatized, unable to sleep and unable to feel, unable to believe anyone, because prostitution is commercialized rape. Say it out loud: COMMERCIALIZED RAPE. Imagine how horrible rape is. Now imagine that your living hinges on being raped. Imagine that your livelihood and being raped are the same thing and nobody sees a problem with this. You will believe in gods only as long as you have the strength to hate. It's possible to heal, but it almost never happens. The lucky ones are the ones like me, who thanks to all that privilege have a chinaman's chance in hell - and we're made to do all the same things as the other 98%, just more roses and less beatings. And believe me, prostitutes - be we "high-class" escorts, call girls, streetwalkers, desperate strippers, parlor dolls - are invariably the lucky ones. Almost inevitably, your wounds will be permanent and most people will be hurt beyond the human capacity to heal. Those are the people who will spend the remains of their lives in pain of the greatest magnitude, and when they die, even atheists will agree that they're in a better place now.
A prostitute is forced to view humanity and individuals from the angle of a psychological and social toilet. When pornography allows those rapes to be downloaded and revisited at the discretion of people who think that it's okay - their god-given right, generally - to frequent human beings reduced to social toilets, those social toilets become public restrooms.
Consider the argument that the only difference between prostitution and pornography is the presence of the camera. If prostitution is commercialized rape and pornography is prostitution on camera, then pornography is rape on camera. You know that nagging feeling that something about this isn't quite right? You've got that feeling because you're jacking off to rape on camera. Watching someone be raped. Someone who takes Xanax for the despair and hollow worthlessness after being used as humanity's toilet and vicoden to block the pain inflicted on her. So which is it you enjoy, the way she's being hurt and brutalized, the way she's being turned into a receptacle of the ugliest of human waste with some lame excuse about the agonies of your memories of sixth-grade insecurity, the fact that she's powerless to stop any of them, or the fact that you can drag her pain out of the past and make it present, make it last an eternity with a flick of your mouse? The difference between prostitution and pornography is the power to resurrect her rape and do it to her over and over and over and over and over and over again. You relive it. She knows it. She knows you're doing it, somewhere somebody's wanking and enjoying watching her suffer. The whole point to pornography is to make prostitution more cost-effective. To make it last.
Let me guess: "I didn't see it."
Sex workers understand exquisitely that refusal to see, selective blindness it is how this works, because seeing it interferes with your ability to do whatever you want and take pleasure and still believe that you're a good person. That's why you're blind to her pain. That's why people argue against pornography (and prostitution) as being the greatest monstrosity ever devised. That's why her pain is invisible: it's irrelevant. All that matters is what you want.
You didn't want to hear what the woman in any of those porns wanted. You wanted to to hear what YOU wanted. The presence of a human being inside the flesh males want to use is an inconvenient oversight on the part of the universe and is an unpleasant surprise when you can't just ignore it because the woman you want to use hasn't been taught that saying whatever you want to hear hurts less than trying to refuse to cooperate.
Now imagine yourself from the perspective of the sex worker: pornography is the point where a normal male becomes a person who colludes in rape. Skip the inevitable teeth-gnashing attempts to self-exempt from it because this is the perspective of the woman on camera as well as the woman on the street corner.
Just the possibility that she might be right - does that demonstrate how pornography is harmful to men?
prostitutionresearch.com
prostitutionrecovery.org
I appreciate your perspective on this, Miss Andrist, and in no way am I attempting to contradict your personal experiences, but it seems to me that your thesis statement, that prostitution and, by extension, pornography are commercialized rape seems a little misleading. If a sex-worker was forced into the trade, or forced in any way to continue in sex-work, then absolutely, of course both prostitution and porno are commercialized rape. But, and maybe I'm wrong here, because I've never been involved with the business on any level, don't at least some sex-workers consent to their work? I always thought consent was the key factor in defining rape, but correct me if I'm wrong. If you're suggesting that the majority of female sex-workers are involved involuntarily, and therefore there is a high likelihood that any given porn actress or prostitute is involved through coercion, then you're complicit in a rape, I'd agree--is this your argument? Because you seem to be painting all sex-workers with the same brush, based on your personal experience. I would go so far as to say that it would be ethically supportable to avoid the sex-industry in general, just in case the sex-workers involved might, unbeknown to the "consumer," be involved against their will (it's my admittedly-not-expert understanding that coercive sex-trafficking is, in fact, a major part of the sex-industry in general), because the porn/prostitution industry really has no effective/reliable way of letting the consumer know for sure whether its participants are consenting (or adults, for that matter) (or does it? Can someone with intimate knowledge contradict this?). That said, to label all prostitution and pornography as commercialized rape seems to ignore the possibility of consent altogether, which seems to make your statement overreaching. Maybe I'm making too fine a distinction between consenting and non-consenting sex-work?
"don't at least some sex-workers consent to their work?"
Absolutely. And while I don't want to deny the horrible experiences Miss Andrist went through, calling all sex work commercialized rape assumes that no sex worker can ever consent and blurs the line between coerced or trafficked situations and consensual sex work.
And the links to Dr Farley's website I find to be very biased.
At the end of the day, everyone has a different experience, and as feminists, we should all agree on minimizing the harms to sex workers and help the one who want out be able to get out.
I tend to agree with Miss Andrist's claim that prostitution and the like is commercialized rape. For a person whose livelihood depends on sex like a prostitutes does, wouldn't saying no be a privilege? You do have to put food on the table, after all.
Can you take a few minutes to think about how completely insulting that is?
There are sex workers who can't get out of sex work, and that's a problem. Trafficked women are rape victims. Women with pimps who will beat them up if they try to get out are rape victims.
I am not a rape victim. There are lots of sex workers out there who aren't rape victims either. To say that a sex worker is a rape victim because she needs to work to food on the table is like saying that an office worker or waitress is a slave because she needs to work to put food on the table.
I'm a sex worker. I mostly work in a dungeon, but I also escort and do porn to earn a little extra cash. (And at this point, I don't actually need the cash that badly. Most of it gets saved.)
I'm sorry you had a terrible experience, but it's important to remember that not everyone has had that same experience.
For me, sex work was a good thing. For the first time I am both financially independent and not worried about money. I have an interesting job and interesting clients.
I wonder how much of my positive experience hinges on the fact that when I escort, I'm independent. I didn't want to join an escort service despite increased safety and pay because I didn't want to have to be up for anything with anyone. My dungeon is very good about respecting my boundaries. When I've done porn, the directors have also been respectful -- they fired a costar because he hit on me too much. I might have been miserable in your situation, but not everyone would be.
(It's also worth saying that I'm probably more sober more often than I was during the school year. I've cut back quite a bit on the drinking, and I've cut back some on the weed.)
Frankly, I'm insulted that you're calling my experiences rape. Yours may have well have been -- mine were not. I consented. My consent is more important than the reasons for which I consented. To call my experiences rape is to say that I am incapable of consent, which is infantalizing and patronizing and a whole lot of other infuriating things.
I think in the same way that you ask others not to generalize an experience, you should do the same for your own. It seems like you've have a pretty equitable position set up for your career in sex work, but I'm sure that you're well-aware that many women do not find themselves in the same position.
I think the overall message of Marc's piece is to shed light on the fact that mainstream pornography has had an overwhelmingly negative effect on society in our vision of sexuality as a whole.
I was listening to Love Line earlier this evening, and Dr. Drew began to address some common, but little-discussed issues relating to pornography and the way it controls sexual expectations. A gentleman was on the show explaining that when the porn industry started to boom, the impulse to start creating raunchier and more degrading material was not necessarily at the demand of the consumer. He said that in many ways things like double or triple penetration and anal sex were "shoved down the consumers throats." After the consumers were convinced this was the norm, it became standard practice. Dr. Drew pointed out that many young people, especially young men, use this material between the ages of 14 and 17, creating a strong impression that anal sex and other hardcore, degrading acts are part of sexuality and they must have them.
By the way, I'm not insisting that actions like multiple penetration and anal sex are always degrading, but the gentleman who had worked in pornography production was pointing out that the purpose of depicting those acts was to eroticize, visually and explicitly, the degradation of women. I have no problems with educated sex partners engaging in this behavior for mutual benefit, but I do take issue with the fact that porn culture influences women to go beyond their comfort zone in the bedroom so that they can feel accepted. There is definitely a culture within sex in our society that says that women should engage in sexual behavior to feel wanted, not sexually satisfied.
I'm not generalizing. If I am I apologize and I'd like you to quote me. I actually went far out of my way not to generalize -- I made sure to say that sex work was a good thing for me and that I probably had a good experience because I was independent.
Miss Andrist made some very wide generalizations, and I take exception to those, particularly the assertion that all prostitution is rape, and that all porn stars are rape victims. The comments on this post inspired me to write another community post that just went up -- here it is -- because there are few things more insulting than being told that I don't have the ability to consent.
Also, Doctor Drew is kind of a tool. We've bitched about him on this website. Take him with a grain of salt.
Dr. Drew makes an attempt to educate the public about sex in the aftermath of misinformation spread by poor sex education, ill-representing pornography, and semi-Victorian attitudes towards sex. While he also employs some pretty stupid people to be on the show with him, I generally respect his work.
He thinks that anal sex makes your butt leak. And then there's all this shit. I'd think twice before taking him at his word.
And another thing:
"I have no problems with educated sex partners engaging in this behavior for mutual benefit, but I do take issue with the fact that porn culture influences women to go beyond their comfort zone in the bedroom so that they can feel accepted."
So it's okay for people to do these things, as long as they don't videotape it or do anything so that it in anyway affects people with "normal" sexuality.
That doesn't familiar at all.
What kind of porn are people who like rough sex supposed to watch? Are you nearly as concerned about how society tells us that liking violent sex means you're a slut with intimacy issues? I still sometimes have trouble telling my sexual partners what I like, and I'm usually pretty straightforward about these things.
THIS. thank you for posting this comment.
Thanks for this - and while I won't comment on whether I agree or disagree, as there is already a storm brewing on that, I do appreciate your very detailed assessment of it all.
Or alternatively the soldiers talk about how they miss sex because it keeps them from thinking about how much they miss everything else. I'm sure they miss their wife, their kids, the tenderness, being there and participating in family life and every aspect of home. But if they got into that line of thinking they'd despair because they'd know that they have months to go, and they aren't sure if they'll ever get back. By limiting their scope they can focus on one or two things they miss and not be overwhelmed by thoughts that they still won't be home for months.
Further if you object to the types of things they miss, when people are far away from home they focus on small things they want to do when they return. They usually take any of these to the extreme, having a gigantic meal, spending a week doing nothing but play video games. To condemn the soldiers want to return to their loved ones and have wild and animalistic sex as a person corrupted by pornography is no more sensible than to condemn a soldier who wants to have a feast when he gets stateside as being gluttonous.
And quite frankly, most people I know do not choose to have soft romantic sex the first time their back together after six months. And I don't see why there is anything wrong with that.
I take responsibilities for all my actions, but I do wonder, had I not been conditioned to view women through pornography culture and sex objects, how many of those women would still remain in my life, what I could have learned from them, and how we could have enhanced each other's lives in the process. By viewing sex through pornographic lens, I hurt women in my life as well as myself.
You have mentioned in previous posts that you didn't think male feminists exuded an aura of self-flagellation, this would be an example of what I was talking about. The fact that you have had relationships end, perhaps even end badly is not on its own some great sin. Everyone has had relationships end badly, but you take it as this great failure of being a feminist. So you wanted sex when you were younger, you asked a girl what she wanted and had hoped that what she wanted was what you wanted. Everyone does these things.
There's nothing wrong with the soldiers wanting to have wild, animalistic sex when they return, but IMO, there is something wrong with the language that they used to say that.
So pornography causes a lack of tact? Okay, I can agree they their descriptions were course, it doesn't quite seem to rise to the level of terrible social ill.
Not really.
If you get someone talking about the kind of sex they want to have, they're not going to talk about it in dry clinical terms. That's not usually how people think.
What exactly do you find so distressing about these terms?
They're outright rude, obnoxious, and insensitive. That's what. Have some respect for someone you love.
Have some respect for someone you love by treating them like a nonsexual angel of purity? There's a middle ground, I'm sure, but that's not the point.
Don't assume that just because you personally find something distasteful, everyone else needs to feel the same way.
Frankly, I think in a lot of the same terms. It doesn't mean I don't respect the people I'm sleeping with, and it doesn't mean I don't care about them. All it means it that, to steal a phrase, I really want to get bent over and fucked from behind.
Do you find all explicit sex talk disrespectful? Do you think it's something people shouldn't talk about or do you just want different terms?
What exactly is so wrong with the language they used?
""When I get home, I am going to fuck that pussy raw."
"I love the sounds a chick makes when she's sucking cock and really likes it."
"I am going to bend her over and fuck her from behind ...""
These are teenage boys and young men who've been in a very stressful life threatening situation for the past 15 months or so, and they would like to go back to having an active sex life with their girlfriends/wives.
Now, maybe they didn't use Robert Jensenish PC wimp words - but these are SOLDIERS no college professors, for God's sake!
And that's what soldiers talk like!
Dude, put down the tissue and the porn, and read what I am typing: SOLDIERS ARE NOT BEING CONDEMNED. I WAS USING THEM AS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW PORN AFFECTS YOUNG MEN. Jesus. Fucking. Christ, kid. Learn to read.
How the hell is it that people who disagree with me on this subject understand the post's central idea, and can succintly argue against it, yet you can't?
Are you dumb, or just refusing to actually see the issue through feminist lens? And if it's the latter, why the hell are you here?
Perhaps you should take a moment and try to see how me put it together, instead of trying to shame him into silence. It may not have been your intention, but you give him the impression you were.
There's nothing unfeminist about what he's said. He simply sees it from another perspective.
I'm getting the sense you're becoming very defensive because not everyone here has the best way of expressing themselves.
"SOLDIERS ARE NOT BEING CONDEMNED. I WAS USING THEM AS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW PORN AFFECTS YOUNG MEN"
You used them as an example of whats wrong with some aspect of society, that finds fault with them too. To claim that they "[lost] the ability to truly connect with their partners" is a condemnation as well you claimed that they were incapable of discussing their feelings and unable to view women as anything other then objects. Now the fact you argue that it happens because of porn does not change the fact that you are alleging all of this is true of the men you discuss, that finds fault with them. You cannot hold a person up as an example of what is wrong with society and not condemn them, criticize them, or otherwise disparage them.
This isn't a question of a lack of reading but a question of fundamental disagreement. You claim that they cannot speak for themselves because porn silences them, I suggest they choose not to speak of various things because it makes the situation easier to bear. You claim that they're afraid that they'll be condemned by society I suggest that they are more afraid that when they're miles away from home they cannot afford to routinely come to grips with these situations without becoming overwhelmed by a desire to go home. You suggest that it is porn that leads them to desire the rougher aspects of sex, and I suggest that its their situation which does so.
Fascinating. I love your posts.
I have had many ex-boyfriends who cried and freaked out and insisted that I did not care for them because I didn't scream and shake and squirt every single time I had sex with them, just like the women in the pornography that they were used to. They really thought that was how all women were supposed to be, and because it was not my constant reaction, they thought they were not good enough for me. They simply expected me to be like the porn stars. They thought it was real. Every single one of them grew depressed, no joke!
Okay, seriously, who are these guys?
Because I keep hearing people mention boyfriends who were so affected by pornography that they had completely unrealistic expectations.
I have slept around and dated around a lot. Almost all -- if not all -- of my partners have been porn users. I've run across this kind of behavior maybe once and I showed the guy the door. Can we try actually holding assholes accountable for their actions rather than blaming porn?
If you're a decent, intelligent human being and you watch a lot of porn before losing your virginity, you will understand pretty quickly that porn sex and real sex are not the same thing, and you won't blame the woman for that.
@TD: I didn't read Marc's description of the comments made by his fellow soldiers as at all condemning them for enjoying the "animalistic" aspects of sex. I think he was trying to point out that they only talk about sex in one way, and he thinks this is related to a type of macho "masculinity" that is distincly porn-fueled. He makes it clear later in the post that he's not arguing that all sex should be "emotional" or "lovemaking."
@Marc: Thanks for your thoughtful analysis. As a heterosexual female, I can certainly share numerous personal anecdotes that support the idea that porn creates sexual minefields, so to speak, for men as well as women. Case in my point: my significant other. Even while he is much more comfortable equating sex with love and emotion than many men I've known (or many women, myself included)--he absolutely has unrealistic expectations about his performance in bed. I can only conclude that these ideas about what is "normal" are the product of porn consumption, and the prominence of porn-like imagery and attitudes about male sexuality. To put it plainly, he's a fantastic lover: giving, considerate, and versatile. But. He's constantly worried that he can't go as long, or as hard, or as many times, or whatever! as he "should be able to." And that maybe if he were just a little "better" I'd be able to reach orgasm from vaginal penetration alone. Stuff like that. Trust me, I've had a few experiences, and he's not comparatively lacking in skill or stamina by any arbitrary measure of these things you could impose. So I have to think that this insecurity is a direct result of highly unrealistic expectations he's picked up from porn, and other aspects of our patriarchal culture. It doesn't make him feel good, and it doesn't have a positive impact on our sex life.
I also want to say your story about asking the woman what she wanted and realizing you expected a porn-like response rather than an individual one was a powerful example. Personally, I think there is a place in the bedroom for porn-like fantasy play . . but it should not be the baseline for all experiences, and particularly not experiences with a new partner. I think it's important for all of us who have matured in this porn-saturated culture to examine our relationship with the medium; your post definitely contributes to that dialogue.
@TD: I didn't read Marc's description of the comments made by his fellow soldiers as at all condemning them for enjoying the "animalistic" aspects of sex. I think he was trying to point out that they only talk about sex in one way, and he thinks this is related to a type of macho "masculinity" that is distincly porn-fueled. He makes it clear later in the post that he's not arguing that all sex should be "emotional" or "lovemaking."
No he's condemning them for the fact that they want more animalistic sex, and he's condemning them for expressing that desire. To paraphrase
the men "[lost] the ability to truly connect with their partners"
"seeing [their partners] as merely body parts for pleasure, they also lose the humanity of sex."
That is accusatory and hostile.
If its not objectionable that the men want the more animalistic aspects of sex, why is it objectionable for them to talk about it? There is a perfectly good reason for them to be more interested in one particular type considering their situation, as I argued, even if they miss all the other types as well. After someone has missed out on something for a significant amount of time they tend to want the more wild versions of it. Especially when, at the same time it is likely in no small part a coping mechanism with their situation.
So they talk about it in a similar manner, this isn't surprising considering they're serving together, in a stressful environment. Even without all the extenuating circumstances most friends talk about things in a similar manner.
We may have to agree to disagree.
There may very well be some truth in what you're saying--about friends talking "in a similar manner", and about the deployed soldiers' sexual deprivation, so to speak, causing them to focus more on the "animalistic" side of things. However, none of this negates the point I believe the OP is trying to make: that men are socialized to talk to other men about sex in a very limited way, and porn comsumption is complicit in that socialization. These soldiers, like all of us, are complex individuals: they certainly have more than one reason for behaving the way they do. Those reasons may or may not include the ones you mention, as well as those mentioned by the OP and other commenters. Your evidently strong feelings about where these men are coming from with their remarks don't invalidate other theories.
And of course the OP can speak for himself, but to me the post did not read as "accusatory" or "hostile" or "condemning."
However, none of this negates the point I believe the OP is trying to make: that men are socialized to talk to other men about sex in a very limited way, and porn comsumption is complicit in that socialization.
These men are not in a position where they can safely 'bare all' on a routine basis while maintaining any shred of their sanity. The OP assumes that they have become unable to view any woman as anything other than a piece of flesh and fails to stop and think that if these men did truly stop and think about all the ways they loved their wives and girlfriends and how much they missed them that they would be unable to function the way they need to in combat.
If a soldier mentioned that he couldn't wait to stop eating MREs and go back to eating his wife's cooking, would he be objectifying his wife as a cook and ignoring all the other things he misses? If he mentioned that he couldn't want to have a real steak, would he be implying that he hated everything else his wife cooked?
Yes, young men can be crass, but they deserve at least some small benefit of the doubt. They face extreme conditions and significant hardship, and it seems to me reason to cut them a little slack.
I hesitate to respond again because I think we're speaking at cross purposes . . . but I really appreciate how civil you've been in disagreeing with me, so I'm going to put in my final two cents.
I realize the way we discuss and represent the military, its culture, and the individuals therein is a sensitive topic for many. I just don't read this post as disrespectful. Perhaps I'm giving the OP the benefit of the doubt because I've read several of his other posts: when he shares anecdotes about his fellow servicemen, he is typically careful to stress his feelings of admiration for, and comradeship with, them--even while venturing to analyze their behaviors. I can also speak for myself and say that nothing I've said here was intended as some kind of blanket, anti-soldier statement lacking nuance or empathy. Of course the men quoted are likely under extreme stress and deserve the benefit of the doubt. Of course we should cut them some slack.
But soldiers, too, are products of their cultures. None of us are exempt from this. Raise us in a different culture, and I venture to guess we'll respond differently to stress. Without cultural influences like the pervasisveness of porn in American society, these men and others would most likely have a very different manner of speaking about sex and women--at any time.
My guess is that the OP used his military colleagues as examples simply because they are the males he's surrounded by at present. I can personally attest to hearing remarks like the ones quoted in varied gatherings of men. I acknowledge that I speak only from my own experience, but I do think these comments are fairly representative of the way many men discuss sex amongst themselves.
So it's unfortunate if Marc's choice of example here is easily misinterpreted or dismissed. That definitely detracts from productive dialogue about how men, specifically, are affected by exposure to porn.
You see - I don't get it. There are people like you, who are able to discuss the central idea of this posts. And then there are idiots like TD and Multipass who charge sexism and anti-military practices, simply because I cite men and the guys around me as examples.
What part of this post being about the effects of pornography on men don't they understand?
No one is attacking men.
No one is feeling bad about their past experiences.
No one is saying that Soldiers are animalistic when it comes to sex.
No one is saying rough sex is bad.
All I am saying is that pornograhy has negative effects on both men and women, and was citing examples on how they negatively affect men.
It's funny: these idiots will scream "what about the men?" when we talk about certain aspects of feminism; yet, when we bring men into the discussion, it's seen as "attacking men," when specifically, the title of this actually says how it hurts men, in this case, making the "it" bad. Yet, still - they don't get it.
Marc
Even Wyo_cowgirl is making excuses for how you've poorly expressed yourself. If large numbers of people fail to get what you're trying to say, and all take away the same message from what you've said, go back and examine what you've said, and ask yourself why some many people are taking it differently from how you intended. Don't try to spread blame everywhere except on yourself. It's not helpful.
What Multipass, TD et al. see in your comments is there, whether you intended it to be there or not. Go and find it and you'll be a better communicator for it.
Marc,
You aren't "bringing men into the discussion" at all - you're ragging on men for following their masculine social programming, and demanding they be guilt ridden and apologetic to the entire female gender at all times and demanding that they renounce male sexuality.
And you are making those demands on men in the armed forces in a war zone an environment where - as I'm sure you know far better than I - being a tough guy with no feelings can be the difference between coming home alive from a firefight and being flown home in a flag draped coffin!
Is this an issue of pornography, or an issue of media in high modernity? As a "pro-sex" feminist (love the scare quotes, by the way), I don't see anything wrong inherently with pornography. There are excellent examples of good pornography. However, I do see a problem with the hyper-commodification of the body in mainstream porn, which is no different than the hyper-commodification of bodies in mainstream media.
While I appreciate your thoughtful analysis, I do have a problem with taking porn writ large in isolation from all the other social influences.
On the subject of how the sex industry hurts men, I'm curious what you would say about the substantial portion of male sex workers. I think it's overly simplistic to say the sex industry reduces men to ATMs. There's an interesting book by R. Danielle Egan called Dancing for Dollars, Paying for Love, about male strip club regulars.
Ever since I required my boyfriend to stop using pornography four years ago, I have wondered what he truly thinks about the pornography industry and how it has effected his life or the lives of men. He prefers to think of his porn-using self and someone else, or someone who hadn't had a chance to really think about what he was doing. Because of that attitude, he prefers not to talk at all about pornography. The most he has ever said was, "It was like eating McDonald's -- it tastes good, sort of, but it was bad for me. Sometimes, I wish I could still have of the french fries, but I think that's just because I was conditioned, for so long, to eat salty snacks." I thought it was a fitting metaphor in a couple different ways. I think seeing porn culture behavior over and over again limits what we "crave" to what we have seen. I think the proof is in the pudding for how pornography has infiltrated so many portions of our society. Perhaps my attitude towards the industry would be different if alternative, pro-feminist forms were the norm, but that just isn't the case.
Marc, I completely disagree as one of those pro-sex feminists (and male as well) you're talking about.
unfortunately, I'm at work, so can't really post a proper response/rebuttal. While i do appreciate all of the thinking you've done, and how well-written your post is, I basically come out the opposite way on almost every point, both ideologically and from personal experience.
Maybe one of these days i'll post my own diary outlining it, and we can discuss in comments.
Another note, re: the experience with the woman who asked you to just kiss her.
I think you're being too hard on yourself. Your mind wasn't on intimate, sweet, romantic sex at that point, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure that's even a result of porn culture -- and if it is, then you should do some thinking about how her desire for romantic kissing may have been influenced by pop culture, romance novels, and movies. I also don't think there's anything wrong with wanting said romantic kissing.
Rough, dirty sex = fun. Sweet, romantic sex = fun. There's no law that says you can't like both, or that a video showing one is implicitly stating that that one is better.
You were on different wavelengths. That doesn't make you selfish, and that doesn't make porn bad.
>>>>Rough, dirty sex = fun. Sweet, romantic sex = fun. There's no law that says you can't like both, or that a video showing one is implicitly stating that that one is better.
You were on different wavelengths. That doesn't make you selfish, and that doesn't make porn bad.>>>
Very good points nattles_things. Pretty much sums up how I feel. I appreciate Marc's post and find it heartening that there are guys out there willing to analyse issues like these with sensitivity. However, we must exercise caution when assuming that women only want 'gentle, loving sex' and men only want 'dirty, pornified sex'. In my relationship it's probably the opposite, and in all my encounters I would confidently say I was the more 'dirty' one. I'm the one who likes porn, bondage, anal, facials etc and have introduced them into my current relationship. My partner likes those things too but a lot of their appeal for him probably comes from how much I enjoy them and the fact I initiated them. Were it down to him, our sex would probably always be on the more 'vanilla' side - which is also nice at times.
The only damaging effect of porn I've seen on my male partners is the assumption that it's easy as pie to make a woman come (ha!). They all got a pretty quick wake-up call on that one! But they're not dummies, they're smart adult men, and they all recovered from their discovery and realised they'd have to try a bit harder. The assumption that all men are conditioned, or are unable to escape their conditioning at the hands of porn, seems a massive overstatement to me. Plenty of guys can shake off society's BS and love women and sex in their own way - and I'm lucky enough to have only had encounters with such guys.
Chas and Nattles thing: From a personal point of view - I do not see porn in itself as a bad thing.
I am very sex positive - I love it! And I also watch porn occassionaly.
I have a problem in that porn is STILL far too male-centric and sexist.
True - there are more female dircetors emerging but this is a slow change. And the market is still totally saturated with misogynist porn.
Where I have a problem with porn is that stuff where women's bodies are "used" rather than respected. Where they are called disgusting names througout and where they are never seen to come.
Would it really be so difficult to make films where women are seen as equal during the sex acts? Where derogatory names are kept out of it and where her pleasure and orgasm is deliberately edited in?
No - it would be too difficult because misogyny has become so synonomous with porn that the makers know it proabaly wouldn't sell!
And that is the problem. Porn just reflects a misogynist culture. I have been affected by porn - and I can honestly say that so too, has every one of my (male...I am heterosexual) lovers.
As I said in an earlier comment on this post: the very fact that we are discussing this, shows porn influences us. Indeed, EVERY aspect of media/culture affects us to a degree.
From the insistence that I "take too long", to thinking that I always like it rough to using derogatory names against me, during sex - and out of bed.
And these are different men of different age ranges. So it does not affect yonger people more or less than older.
And please - do not then assert that these guys must have individual issues in that they hate women. These are all normal guys whom have just been affected by porn culture! And I have heard plenty of men use these terms in other situatiuons than sex.
In fact, porn culture is now so bad that some men actually think that calling women these names is a compliment!!!
Porn culture = society. Society = porn culture.
Porn is aimed at men, because men are the primary consumers of porn. As women start to purchase more porn, there should be a rise in the number of female-oriented websites.
Here's the thing I think you're missing: There are a whole lot of people out there who really like rough, degrading sex. I'm one of them. There are a whole lot of people who really like verbal humiliation -- again, I'm one of them. Equality porn does nothing for me.
As for your lovers, they may have been affected by porn but that's no excuse for being an asshole. Anyone who complains that you "take too long" deserves to be shown the door. And while there's nothing wrong with rough sex and some verbal humiliation, that's the kind of thing you talk about before you start doing it to an unknowing partner. They may be nice guys most of the time, but their sexual etiquette is way off and you should hold them accountable for it rather than blaming porn.
I've slept around quite a bit, and I'm sure that almost all of my partners watched porn. I have never encountered any of the behaviors you're talking about. Assholes are assholes with or without pornography.
RE: In fact, porn culture is now so bad that some men actually think that calling women these names is a compliment!!!
The worst is when men acknowledge that it’s degrading language, but continue to use it because it’s a “turn on’. I find that to be beyond discomforting. What about the women in these situations, when was it decided that degrading (misogynistic) language was to be taken as a compliment?
That speaks volumes about the effect of certain pornography (we can not generalize pornography as a whole, there are so many different types/categories that to generalize is where we disagree).
Where I have a problem with porn is that stuff where women's bodies are "used" rather than respected. Where they are called disgusting names througout and where they are never seen to come.
Wow, I don't know what porn you've been watching, but I've never seen porn that disrespectful.
Wait, scratch that, we did once rent a porn that looked to be heading in that direction, and we quickly turned it off and popped in the other movie we had rented.
From the insistence that I "take too long", to thinking that I always like it rough to using derogatory names against me, during sex - and out of bed.
And these are different men of different age ranges. So it does not affect yonger people more or less than older.
And please - do not then assert that these guys must have individual issues in that they hate women. These are all normal guys whom have just been affected by porn culture! And I have heard plenty of men use these terms in other situatiuons than sex.
OK, assholes will be assholes with or without porn.
Every man I've dated has been a porn watcher, and I've never been treated with the disrespect you are describing.
This post is actually dripping sexism.
Ironic.
Your first mistake is basically the "You aren't doing it right" admonition.
Divorcing sex from emotion is perfectly acceptable and there's nothing wrong with it.
To try to say people aren't having sex the "right" way because you don't like it that way is paternalistic and wrong.
Plenty of people can have sex without the "emotional intimacies", and to claim that someone MUST have it, or they're doing it wrong is a shaming tactic.
Men not wanting to talk about "feelings" with sex isn't the fault of porn. You make a lot of faulty conclusions.
You again make false assumptions, such as men somehow needing to get around and have group-hug scenarios where we talk about our feeeeeelings.
Each person can be who and what they want to be, and they aren't required to hold to your standards for that.
By telling us what sex is, pornography also tells us what sex isn't, and worst, that unless sex is rough, dirty, and the way pornography depicts, it really isn't worth it.
You're doing the exact same thing. You're telling us what sex is, and what it isn't, and that if sex isn't "intimate and romantic" then it's not really worth it.
Can't you see what you're doing here?
My thoughts? Your post is paternalistic and sexist.
Which is it -- do you have a beef with everything feminism, or is it that you can't read or comprehend? Either way, you're pretty fucking thickhheaded.
Where it my post did I say that sex is supposed to be intimate and romantic? In fact, I said specifically that it does not need to be, either.
That's my problem with your response - rather than actually taking on the real issue, you whine and scream sexism against men. The issue here is about how pornography affects men, and is an attack against pornography - not men, rough sex, or anything else.
Also, I never said it was pornography's "fault" - but rather, than pornography is responsible for hyper-masculine culture, which it turns denies men of fully being themselves.
You see, whereas other people are actually talking about the issues, you're whining and seeming to think that somehow this is an attack on men, or "unromantic" sex, and thereby constitutes sexism. Do you actually comprehend what you read?
Do you want to slow down and actual comprehend the spirit of this post?
"Also, I never said it was pornography's "fault" - but rather, than pornography is responsible for hyper-masculine culture, which it turns denies men of fully being themselves."
I don't think this point is coming across very strongly. I don't think you've made this argument at all convincingly based on anecdotal experience.
There are many social institutions that feed into the construction of hegemonic masculinity, and porn is itself just a reflection of these institutions.
As a side note, in discussions of masculinity and pornography, everyone cites Robert Jensen's work. To be honest, I've never read it, but I'm very familiar with Jensen's ideology and how he has treated my comrades in activism. I would say instead to read R W Connell's work, specially Masculinities. Connell argues that there is no single definite masculinity, and discusses how masculinities are constructed.
Some of the thoughts Multipass has also crossed my mind. I thought that, at times, you were shaming people who didn't have "intimate" sex because everyone should always need that type of interaction.
I had also gotten a bit lost with the jump from "fucking my girlfriend and listening to her moan" to paid actors making money in the sex industry. I followed it in a basic sense of "oh, ok, he sees they seem the same when described", but it wasn't entirely sketched out and so could come across as shaming both the men and the women who enjoy rough sex.
Which is it -- do you have a beef with everything feminism, or is it that you can't read or comprehend? Either way, you're pretty fucking thickhheaded.
Rampant foul language is the first recourse of the unintelligent.
I don't see how pointing out YOU being sexist is "having a beef with everything feminism".
I think your ideas presented here are contrary to feminism. It can easily be tacked back to shaming women who have sex for the sake of having sex, without your vaunted "human to human intimacy".
Where it my post did I say that sex is supposed to be intimate and romantic? In fact, I said specifically that it does not need to be, either.
Where you listed three comments about sex without your all-important emotional contact, then proceeded to insult and shame those making the comments, and insinuating that they've somehow lost "the ability to truly connect with their partners - and through the objectification of their partners, seeing them as merely body parts for pleasure, they also lose the humanity of sex."
You're pretty much speaking against sex without "truly connecting with (your) partner".
That's my problem with your response - rather than actually taking on the real issue, you whine and scream sexism against men.
Show me where. Did I say "against men"? No, you did.
The issue here is about how pornography affects men, and is an attack against pornography - not men, rough sex, or anything else.
And my point is, your conclusions are suspect and bordering on completely false.
Throwing out anecdotal situations and coming to mendacious conclusions does not make for a good argument.
Your entire point is "Porn is bad because a bunch of dumb soldiers want to fuck".
You're saying porn is bad because these men aren't saying "I miss the warm tender romantic touch of my wife/girlfriend, I love her so much", instead of saying how much they want to have sex.
Also, I never said it was pornography's "fault" - but rather, than pornography is responsible for hyper-masculine culture, which it turns denies men of fully being themselves.
Masculinity existed before porn. Correlation, you know, does not equal causation.
Just because porn exists, and men are masculine, does not mean porn causes masculinity.
Your second problem there, is "denies men of fully being themselves". You got ALL that from some horny, sex-deprived soldiers talking dirty about sex?
That's impressive there, Freud, ever considered a career in psychotherapy?
Also, FYI, saying "It's not X's fault, X is just responsible!", is, in fact, saying it's X's fault.
You see, whereas other people are actually talking about the issues, you're whining and seeming to think that somehow this is an attack on men, or "unromantic" sex, and thereby constitutes sexism. Do you actually comprehend what you read?
It's funny you talk of reading comprehension when twice you've accused me of something I did not do. :)
When you list three quotes, and then proceed to say things like that are bad, you're attacking those attitudes. Yes, you can claim all day long you're attacking what caused those attitudes, but you wouldn't do so unless you found those attitudes problematic.
You're very intellectually dishonest.
I don’t see it that way at all. Pornography is just a silly sexual thrill how would any one possibly get the impression that a woman was going to act like women act in porn videos? If a girl said just kiss me that would be awesome. If I went to a woman’s home with her I would not necessarily expect to sleep with her. And if I did it would be about affection. If we wanted to play some kinky game or other we thought up on the spot so what? That doesn’t mean we don’t like spending time with each other or that I would perform that act with any woman who was willing. I’d have to feel something for her to let her get that close in the first place. Porn is about a primal thrill it’s got nothing to do with objectifying any one it’s a masterbational play thing, when your finished with it you click the little x in the upper right hand corner and leave it for another day. Those soldiers didn’t get that kind of talk and attitude from porn they got it from the swaggering macho bull shit society dumps on men it’s not porn culture it’s thug culture.
I don’t see it that way at all. Pornography is just a silly sexual thrill how would any one possibly get the impression that a woman was going to act like women act in porn videos? If a girl said just kiss me that would be awesome. If I went to a woman’s home with her I would not necessarily expect to sleep with her. And if I did it would be about affection. If we wanted to play some kinky game or other we thought up on the spot so what? That doesn’t mean we don’t like spending time with each other or that I would perform that act with any woman who was willing. I’d have to feel something for her to let her get that close in the first place. Porn is about a primal thrill it’s got nothing to do with objectifying any one it’s a masterbational play thing, when your finished with it you click the little x in the upper right hand corner and leave it for another day. Those soldiers didn’t get that kind of talk and attitude from porn they got it from the swaggering macho bull shit society dumps on men it’s not porn culture it’s thug culture.
I don't think it's a good idea to think of porn as just a "silly little thrill" and pretend that it doesn't negatively influence our lives at all. That's kind of like saying that sexist advertisements have no effect on our lives, but in reality, when we're exposed to them a lot, they tend to effect the way we view things.
But porn IS a "silly little thrill" for men - porn created sexism about as much as video games created war (which is to say not at all!)
Don't blame all of the world's misogyny on sexual entertainment products for men!
Uh, no one is trying to say that "porn created sexism" and no one is trying to blame all of the world's misogyny on porn. I'm saying that porn reinforces misogynistic beliefs, and negatively influences how men and boys (yes, boys) view sex.
Speaking of boys, if you ask people when they started looking at porn I'd bet that a lot of people, maybe even most people, started when they were very young. The "Do not enter unless 18 or older!" warning isn't a magical barrier that keeps 11 year olds away from the material. Although I'm all for being open to your kids about sex, most porn is nothing but sexist lies. One reason I'm anti-porn is that it begins teaching children these lies about sex so early. It's just ignorant to pretend it means nothing and has no influence on us, especially considering the age that a lot of people start looking at porn.
The solution to that problem is better sex ed programs starting younger. My ideal sex ed program would talk about pleasure and some of the differences between porn and sex.
Porn is crap sex ed, and I doubt anyone will disagree with me on that.
"For the children!!!!" is a terrible reason to stop adults from using pornography.
Oh I never said I wanted to stop adults from using porn. I disagree with it, but I wouldn't want to ban it.
Thanks for this post, Marc. You're definitely one of my favorite posters on Feministing.
I've chosen to abstain from sex at the moment (it has NOTHING to do with "purity", religion, or marriage). I'm very pro-sex, yet anti-porn. I hate the way that porn portrays women, and I hate looking at amateur porn and thinking "I bet all of these videos were submitted without her consent". I'm also sick of seeing rape in porn. They call it "unconscious sex" or "sleeping sex", but of course it's just rape (simulated rape, but still sick). This hurt me A LOT after being sexually assaulted, and for the longest time I just gave up on masturbation, because every time I'd try to look at porn I'd be driven to tears.
One of my ex-boyfriends was really big on watching Hentai, and oh my god, the rape in hentai is so common it's almost unbelievable. I've seen a lot of it, and it's almost always the woman (or girl, usually) begging the man to stop.. The man continues, and the girl ends up loving it. Interestingly enough, that same boyfriend ended up sexually assaulting me on numerous occasions. I believe he got the idea that when women say no, they don't really mean it, from hentai. I really think that it influenced his beliefs about sex a lot, and he ended up assaulting me over it.
I'd just like to say that hentai and h-games are the only porn medias I'll watch. There are a lot of horrible rape hentai, yes, but there's hentai that is geared towards women as well, yaoi and yuri are almost exclusively targeted towards women, and unlike Western porn a lot of hentai does show consentual sex and the girl actually comes, and dare I say it, focus on female pleasure.
I'm really sorry to hear that your boyfriend did that to you.
I believe he got the idea that when women say no, they don't really mean it, from hentai. I really think that it influenced his beliefs about sex a lot, and he ended up assaulting me over it.
Couldn't it be that he was a rapist at heart and therefore gravitated to rape porn? That his views of sex dictated what porn he watched, instead of the porn he watched dictating his views of sex?
Most men (unless they are seriously delusional) know that porno is a FANTASY of an imaginary world where the average woman was as comfortable with the idea of random no-strings-attached sex as the average man is.
Most men (except for the delusional guys) know that that imaginary world depicted in porn is totally 180 degrees opposite the real world - in the real world, to most women, sex is tied deeply to long term relationships, money, "security" and babies - way too serious for casual fun.
This is similar to how romance novels provide for women a fictional fantasy world where the average man cares as much about romance and relationships as the average woman does - most women (except for the delusional ones) know very well that this imaginary world is 180 degree opposite to the real world
Porn and romance novels are erotic fiction and have no relationship to real world male female relationships - and that is precisely why porn is so popular among men and romance novels are so popular among
women!!!!!!!!
As for the locker room talk among your fellow soldiers - that's young male insecurity talking, also, they probably know your feelings about gender, and they might be deliberately amping up the rude sex talk around you because they know it upsets you and will get a rise out of you!
Wow, this post is full of false assumptions and stereotypes.
"in the real world, to most women, sex is tied deeply to long term relationships, money, "security" and babies - way too serious for casual fun."
uh, what? First of all, money? Are you trying to call us 'gold diggers'? I have no idea what you mean by that, really. Babies? As if men aren't effected by unwanted pregnancies, as well? Maybe he isn't effected as directly as the woman, but men are DEFINITELY effected by having children. duh. Security? Again, I have no idea what you're talking about. A LOT of women enjoy casual sex. A lot of women enjoy one night stands.
None of my female friends have been into erotic fiction. I'm certainly not, I actually find it annoying.
"This is similar to how romance novels provide for women a fictional fantasy world where the average man cares as much about romance and relationships as the average woman does"
And this is where pornography is hurting men, in my opinion. Believe it or not, men DO want real relationships. Sure, a lot of them want one night stands, too, but saying that men don't care about relationships is completely false.
Try to think outside of the box. Believe it or not, a lot of us don't conform to the gender stereotypes. Maybe you should turn off the TV.
"Believe it or not, a lot of us don't conform to the gender stereotypes."
And a lot of you do conform to the gender stereotypes.
Perhaps you and your circle of friends don't care about money and are comfortable with casual sex.
But how many women beyond your social circle are that liberated?
Honestly.
From my real world experience, many women see sex as a commodity that women have, that men want, that can be traded for cash, material goods, housing, protection and many other useful things.
I base that observation on real world people that I actually know, not on TV programs (cause TV is fiction but friends, coworkers and neighbors are for real)
Not every woman thinks that way.
But many women do.
If that was not the case - why would there even be a market for porn, strip clubs and prostitutes in the first place?
If men could get it for free as easily as women can, men wouldn't have to pay, and there would be no commercial heterosexual sex.
So, I basically got two things out of this post.
1. Women don't like casual sex.
2. HOWEVER, they're also prostitutes.
Odd. I don't think I'm even going to debate with you on this one. If you think that most women are prostitutes then you are a long way from understanding my POV.
From my real world experience, many women see sex as a commodity that women have, that men want, that can be traded for cash, material goods, housing, protection and many other useful things.
But doesn't the demand side define the commodity?
If men could get it for free as easily as women can, men wouldn't have to pay, and there would be no commercial heterosexual sex.
Just one beef here. The divergence in casual sex between men and women comes in part because men historically preferred chaste long-term partners and "easy" short-term partners. Women, by societal design, could be one or the other type of partner but not both; yet no such distinction was made for men. As this distinction fades for women, the value of sex as a commodity is greatly, greatly diminished (with the exception of people who are paying for kink or something very creative and rare).
Since you asked how liberated women are, my answer is that they are about as liberated as men.
There is some not-as-consensual sex in romance novels. Dramatic readings of them in my past, I can tell you that, at the very least, the characterization of dime store novels is a bit off base.
There's a lot of flat out rape in romance fiction too! And women falling in love with their rapists!
Hi Marc,
This discussion definitely seems to hit some hot spots for everyone involved. I had to step away because I was feeling frustrated at the way some commenters seek to impose a sort of "black and white" "either or" lens on both your post and the following comments. I.e.: You're either for porn, or against it. You're either blindly slamming your fellow soldiers, or supporting them unquestioningly. Yuck.
Obviously, there's room in the middle, in the gray area. There's room for nuance. I tried to make that clear in my comments: I could see where TD was coming from, but was also pretty certain I was grasping your intentions when you wrote what you wrote. Both viewpoints have validity. I had no intention of "making excuses" for you (nod to Brian, above!) or even speaking for you. I was interested in discussing what I saw in the post and the comments. And this comment of mine, above, pretty much sums up what I wanted to contribute:
"But soldiers, too, are products of their cultures. None of us are exempt from this. Raise us in a different culture, and I venture to guess we'll respond differently to stress. Without cultural influences like the pervasisveness of porn in American society, these men and others would most likely have a very different manner of speaking about sex and women--at any time."
To me, it's evident that: 1) mainstream, misogynistic porn doesn't occur in a vaccuum. It is part and parcel of our mainstream, misogynistic sexual culture. Porn alone doesn't produce any given behavior or attitude, but it contributes, and influences. It's a product of, but also helps perpetuate, a set of potentially harmful, misogynistic ideas that most of us on this site typically manage to unite AGAINST. 2) Not everyone sees/believes/feels that the mainstreaming of porn culture, so to speak, has a detrimental affect on them, or on society as a whole. Okay. That's valid. But those of who do believe this have an equally valid opinion.
So despite any and all issues with the way your post was written, I think you made some good points and furthered the dialogue. Once again, I'm going to say "I think it's important for all of us who have matured in this porn-saturated culture to examine our relationship with the medium." Wink. Smile. Keep on posting!
Thanks Marc,
I appreciate this post.
And I am, quite frankly, pretty fed up with current cultural trends regarding sexuality. The Victorian Era was all about regulation and control of sexuality. Now we still have a little of that, but the most popular attitude/belief on the street is that sexuality can't be changed or controlled and your a bad person if you promote a different belief.
Now, I will agree with some other posters talking about how pornography didn't start women being sexually objectified. I don't even know if it made sex worse -you can find sex handbooks from the 1950s that suggest the woman should just lie there or else she's a whore. People have been into kinky sex (BDSM, anal) etc. for hundreds of years.
But I do think porn has its affects too. And I say that as a woman who enjoys some porn. But kids are exposed to it at younger and younger ages with the internet being everywhere now -kids at my school used to watch it together when we were 12 and comment on how ugly some women's genitalia were (talk about giving me a complex)
I've had multiple friends who were forced to give blowjobs as teenagers -with at least one I know it was porn-related. I feel a fair amount of pressure to perform sexually based on porn, as well.
I'm also into being objectified, and BDSM. We know that's old (Marquis de Sade ring a bell?) If you read psychology commonly both those things ARE tied to having been abused as a child or having low self-esteem for other reasons while going through puberty. And with my personal experiences? Frankly, that makes a lot of sense.
A lot of women like to be dominated and degraded, it's true. A lot of women were also abused or otherwise made to feel bad about themselves or their bodies as teenagers. Until we can say those two things have nothing to do with each other I don't think we can really say that degrading sex is not indicative of a societal problem.
And so what if sexual attitudes towards women and male-female sexual interactions have been the same for a really long time? I don't recall feminists generally pointing towards the past as a feminist paradise.
But I think the creation of a feminist paradise might require reducing or eliminating porn. It's absurd for people to claim porn doesn't affect their sexuality -things you associate with sexual pleasure become incorporated into your sexual fantasies, just like any other fetish. It's fairly basic psychology, actually: you see _x_, you experience sexual pleasure or orgasm, you learn to associate _x_ with sexual pleasure
I think media affects all sorts of aspects about our culture. I'm also fairly shallow when it comes to who I'm attracted to sexually. Am I going to get mad at people who criticize the media just because I enjoy me some George Clooney? No, because I think they're absolutely right. I think if I hadn't consumed so much media from a young age my ideas about what constitutes "attractive" would likely be different...
On this thread I see a lot of people saying things to others like "well, you may have had negative experiences but not everyone does so we should disregard your experience." Hmm... where have I heard an argument like that before?
This is one of those comments where I can't hit "I liked" enough. Very well put, all of it. Especially your last paragraph about some commenters basically dismissing the experiences of others--that really needed to be said on this thread. Thanks! :-)
Thanks, another thing I thought about this morning: Yes, some of that language the men used can be a turn-on to me in certain contexts.
But let's just reverse the scenario completely for a minute and say this was a group of women sitting around and talking about what they missed being away from home:
I'm fairly sure you would NEVER hear them say something like "I'm going to fuck that dick raw" or "I miss the sound a boy makes when he's lapping my vulva"
They might say "I really miss sex with my boyfriend." or "getting laid" or "we're going to have a good long session when I get home"
The biggest difference I see hear in how the men and women express themselves in public, is that the woman never seem to forget that the sex or sexual parts is attached to a person, whereas the men seem quite used to doing so. I'm pretty sure that's what Marc was getting at...
Hmm. I've seen plenty of porn that emphasizes romance/emotion alongside the more base, physical feelings.
I am one of those "pro-sex feminists" and I occasionally watch porn. I identify myself as pro-sex, because I don't feel that consensual sex acts, whether private or commercial, have the power to turn women into objects or make them any less respectable. I think that the real source of misogyny in porn is the meaning that society attaches to female sexuality. The pornography itself has no real power. Sex only means what you make it mean, whether it is on film or in person. However, porn hits a nerve that, for many people, says sex is bad or dirty.
I respect Jenna Jamison as much as I respect any other woman I don't know personally. I don't assume that the sexual nature of her work makes her any less of a person or that she is being controlled or objectified. In my mind, she is a sexual being and she is a respectable person too. I don't feel compelled to separate her sexuality from her respectability. I don't have to pick apart her choices, her morality, her character, her spirituality, her background, her lifestyle, or her love life.
In other words, I don't feel the need to objectify anyone, just because they are expressing themselves sexually. I can enjoy their sexuality as an extension of my own, because to me, sex is a normal, healthy part of the human experience.
I can't argue with those who say that they have had negative personal experiences with porn, because I haven't had those experiences personally. What I do take issue with is the attempt to then generalize those personal experiences and then link them to greater social ills. Porn is neither the best or the worst thing that has ever happened to society.
Something else that comes to mind is how marginalized LGBT people are when it comes to arguing about the ethics of porn. Most arguments I've heard decry the misogyny of porn, but what about gay porn? Where is the misogyny in porn depicting only men? What about lesbian porn made for women by women? Maybe its mainsteam porn that is the issue at hand, but that in itself says something about how ingrained our assumptions about sex can be. We assume that it's always about men and women and power, but what about LGBT porn that has nothing to do with heterosexual sexuality and is not consumed by straight males? How does that fit into the argument either for or against porn?
Have you read Jenna Jameson's autobiography?
I haven't, actually, but I've heard that in it she gives a somewhat bittersweet portrayal of her own choices.
I guess a problem that I have with this is that porn actors and actresses are essentially that, actors and actresses. It's part of their job to act in public like they love their work.
How often do you hear people that it would be difficult to be a celebrity in Hollywood, especially as a woman, given all the pressures and judgments? (I hear it fairly often, actually, so much so that I feel like that meme is almost undisputed)
Why do some people have difficulty attaching that same logic to porn actresses? Plus to the extent that some porn actresses enjoy their work and that porn is kind of like exhibitionism, desire to do that work still generally ties into childhood experience, and often negative ones. Once again I say read some psychology, get to know some people who hav
Maybe the solution is not to ban porn, but maybe there's something wrong with the culture that creates mainstream porn to begin with...
Yes many porn stars regret their choice of going into porn. Many people regret the choices they make. I personally find it very condescending to want to restrict people such that they never make a poor choice that they regret.
That being said there is a lot to be done to improve our culture so that young women dont feel pressure to pursue sex work and that those that do have more power to be safe while doing it. In my opinion this involves making sure income women have access to education, grant money and decent wages. Additionally, trying to erase the stigma of being a porn star so people that wish to leave the business can.
'I think that the real source of misogyny in porn is the meaning that society attaches to female sexuality.'
Porn is not about female sexuality.
It is made to appeal to a constructed male sexuality, and basd on restrictive notions about what male and female sexualities are.
Gay people are not generally mentioned because there are not power differentials in same-sex relationships.
I have seen discussions of some porn for gay men replicating 'male' (active) and 'female' (passive) roles, though.
Judi, the problem is most people *aren't* that reflective. Especially with the availability of internet porn now, young men are starting to view porn from 12-14 years old. How can that *not* affect how they view sex?
Learning about sex from pornography is a lot like learning about life from TV.
Instituting factual sex education in all of our public schools would go a long way toward adjusting people's (especially we men's) attitudes toward sex in general and women in particular. But even if abstinence education ends up going the way of the leisure suit (as I hope it does), that's not going to happen anytime soon, is it?
Let me say in closing that the people who make the formulaic, boring, irritating and intelligence-insulting porn which now dominates the market only make Pat Robertson's and James Dobson's jobs that much easier.
pornography limits our perceptions of what sex is, and how we should do as well as what we should feel, and as a result, limits us from growing as people, and from being ourselves, as both women and men.
Only if you let it. Confident people who know who they are, what they want, and what they value would not be restricted in this way by pornography.
Those who view pornography as purely fantasy and recognize the difference between fantasy and reality don't have this trouble.