Hey all,
So I have a question regarding sexism today and would really appreciated what you out there in the feministing community thought about it. Its a fairly simple question though i feel it may sound restrictive upon further explanation.
My question is, as a woman, what sort of sexism do you experience on a day to day or week to week basis?
To expand let me clarify what i mean. I mean on a daily or weekly or consistently regular basis what sort of things happen that make you consciously pause and think (or say) "god that was/is sexist". Furthermore I'm looking for examples that effect you in a negative manner, that is to say, not necessarily including things that don't bother you and are 'inconsequential'.
I hope I'm coming off clear and not sounding utterly vague and scattered. The reason I'm asking this is, as a man, i do not have the unique perspective to recognize the less obvious aspects of sexism. Furthermore I honestly, and i know this will cause an uproar, don't seem to see many examples of harmful sexism perpetrated on women in western society these days. I suppose i should have made that clear that i am specifically interested in sexism in western society, as it becomes much more apparent as you look into other communities across the world.
So if you feel like giving me a lesson in current sexism i would much appreciate the chance to hear how women feel they are still being mistreated/misrepresented in western society, and specifically how it affects them on a regular basis.
Thanks for all the future comments


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Rape jokes really rub me the wrong way. I know a lot of engineers, and a lot of them make jokes about how their professors/classes/exams "raped them". Taking a difficult exam in a class you signed up for is in no way comparable to forced sex acts.
I don't even know where to start with this. Your question is problematic on many levels.
First of all, why is it up to us to prove to you that "harmful" sexism exists? You've already said that you think it doesn't (in Western Society, of course). Are we supposed to be grateful for the opportunity to change your mind?
The problem is in this sentence: "I... don't seem to see many examples of harmful sexism perpetrated on women in western society these days."
OK, so you only want responses of sexism that's "harmful." This implies that you've seen examples of sexism, but they're not "harmful" enough to qualify as "real" sexism in your opinion. Why can't you just say "hey, that's sexism" and be done with it?
Let's work a little analogy. Would you go onto a website devoted to, say, racism, and post: "Hey, I don't think 'harmful' racism exists. Could you please tell me stories of when you've experienced racism? But not just getting looks in stores or not seeing positive role models on TV or anything, but REAL racism?"
Yeah, that wouldn't go over very well either.
This guy is being honest that he doesn't "seem to see" the sexism - this is along the lines of what many women say, but we don't jump down their throats about it - we want to reach out and have a conversation. Why wouldn't we do the same when it comes to our guy peers? He's showing more interest than many women I've encountered who are sexism-deniers, and he's not even denying it - the fact that he's asking for specifics shows that he knows it's out there, but experiencing it just must be beyond his subject position.
Plus he never used the words "real sexism," and nothing he said implied that there was a scale of "real" implied by an interest in obvious or not-so-obvious sexism. I can see replying to him this way if he wasn't being genuine, but his words sound sincere. I would agree with some other posters - maybe referring him to some other Feministing posts is in order, but I think responses like this to men who ask us about our experiences do more harm than good. If the goal is to alienate, we've hit the nail on the head.
No he doesn't say "real sexism" but he does say he wants "examples of harmful sexism" implying that there is...non-harmful sexism? Even the subtle things people in this post have described are harmful and they feed into something bigger and the way he wrote his OP it sounds like he really just wants to know about the big issues because those are the only important ones. Like stuff even a really big jackass would recognize as not okay and sexist or something. Otherwise we're just bitching about stuff that's "inconsequential." Maybe he didn't mean it that way, but that's how his post comes off.
And he's asking for examples of sexism...um, that's what this whole site is! We're pointing out sexism all over and analyzing it. All he has to do is read. No one's saying read every single post on this site or anything but geez. But instead it seems like he wants us to do his work for him. To pick out the important readings or discussions or comments and spoonfeed them to him so he doesn't have to spend the time reading through it himself. This whole site is here for his disposal and yet he's asking us to basically whittle it down into some easy readable comments for him.
For me, getting catcalled or honked at while running. It only happens when I run alone, not with my husband. It makes me feel like an object for others to comment on rather than an active participant with one's own life.
Sexism, like all systems of oppression, aren't supposed to be noticeable. If sexism becomes apparent to everyone, then the patriarchy has failed. So I think a lot of the responses to this topic are going to be subtle forms of sexism or behaviors that women exhibit because of sexism.
Take, for example, the way I get into a car at night. I take my keys out of my bag before I leave the building. I walk through the parking lot as quick as I can without running. As soon as I see my car, I unlock it using the remote. When I get to my car, I get in, lock the door, and close it. I lock my car before I even put my seatbelt on. Maybe that's because I'm more likely to be raped than get in a car accident. At least if feels that way. Women and men might get into a car this way too for efficiency, but men don't get in a car this way because they're afraid of being raped.
"At least if feels that way," and that's the crux of the problem. A car accident is more likely than sexual assult but every time someone says 'let me walk you to your car,' - and they only ever say it to women - it reinfoces the idea it is natural for women to be in danger when alone.
Why don't you try reading through the feministing and community archives?
In just the past few weeks you'll learn that many women in "western societies" face:
Rape, sexual assault, and emotional abuse at higher rates than men, and usually at the hands of men.
Harassment on the street, in the work place, in school, etc.
Restrictions in our own health care options (lack of access to abortion, doctors who refuse to discuss all birth control options with younger women, schools which refuse to teach young women about all the choices available to them, etc).
Lower pay than men for the same work.
Restrictive gender roles which make it a struggle to work in certain professions, play certain sports, wear certain clothes, act in certain ways.
Religious leaders who do not allow women to participate in leadership roles in our own religious communities, attempt to restrict our reproductive choices, and demand that we be "submissive" to our husbands.
Pervasive underrepresentation in all branches of the government which makes, enforces, and interprets the laws and controls the agencies which have enormous power over our daily lives.
Insensitivity, mockery, and even violence when we try to speak about about the injustices we face.
And this does not even begin to reflect the intersectionalities of injustice that many of us face as women of color, immigrant women, transwomen, lesbian/bisexual/queer women, working class women, etc.
i'm not going to attack you, and i am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you actually think you could be wrong in your assumption that real sexism doesn't exist here.
one of the big problems with your question, for me, is the subtly of of sexism i experience personally. how can i explain the nuanced way in which certain coworkers constantly downplay their female counterparts as less valuable employees, to the point that eventually get don't get promoted as often, etc?? Or how, if i repeat a complaint a male counterpart makes, he's got initiative and critical thinking skills, and i'm a bitch? or how do i explain the very subtle way in which i'm treated less seriously by a doctor when i'm ill because i'm female and probably 'overreacting', only to wait 5 years and find out i have a life threatening illness that went without treatment?
these could all be downplayed somehow, or explained away for other reasons, but when they happen every day of every year of you're life, finally something clicks and you go 'ok, i get it...' and you realize, you're a woman/girl/female, and this is how you're going to get treated a lot of the times. So maybe from the outside, it seems harmless, but it's really not. and also, people don't LIKE to see the bad. i certainly don't enjoying walking around pointing to all the horrible things in life showing everyone, nor do they want to see it. so if you're on the outside looking in, it's easy to say 'that's not so bad...'.
take catcalling for example. i've had close male friends say women should take it as a compliment, like it's no big deal and all for fun. but really, the history is: violence. women have to walk around afraid because violence against women happens SO often. so a catcall isn't a compliment because it is historically loaded with the possibility of violence, i walk home from work terrified of the day when the kissing noises/hissing is going to turn into something more scary (a few times it almost has in the past two years). and then, when you realize, you're just this PIECE of skin and bones, your fear and feelings don't seem to matter, it starts to really deeply affect you as you walk to work everyday wondering what's going to happen.
but really, if you want to, with each example, you could rationalize you're way out of it and say it's not sexist. if you wanted to. but as women, we totally know it happens. all the time unfortunately.
I don't tend to think of sexism primarily as being specific wrongs that have been done to me (or any other women I know). I see it more as a series of global systems that operate on many levels (NOT just personal) to create an environment where women face violence because of their gender, the gender binary is heavily enforced, the cultures related to women are degraded and viewed as unsophisticated, and men generally are more able than women to fulfill their potential in many arenas.
To divide sexism up by nation (and particularly into some east/west binary) is not useful considering the transnationality (in regard to corporations, films, commodities of all sorts, not to mention politics, resources, etc.) that influences all of our lives today. Furthermore, to think of sexism as personal wrongs is definitely applicable in some situations (rape and domestic abuse are pretty obvious ones), but does not do justice to the very complicated and multilayered structures of patriarchy in our world.
While I appreciate what appears to be a valiant effort on your part to educate yourself about sexism in Western society, the operative term here is "educate yourself." Though women here have and will share their own personal stories, you will learn much more by actually browsing this website and others and taking advantage of the vast amount of content that details exactly the kind of sexism you want to know more about.
You'll really limit your scope and understanding just by reading the responses on this post - take some time, browse the site. Don't be surprised if you're dubious at first, because that's the natural reaction of a lot of people who are first realizing just how entrenched in sexism we still are (and thereafter are left wondering how they didn't notice before.)
When you are at work, be aware of "boys club" type activity.
Are you going out for beer, games, to strip clubs and golfing with the boys @work? Are the women being subjected to activities they could be insulted by, just to be a part of the "boys club" that creates work advancement and bonding between employees and sometimes employers?
If so, stop it, make a consious effort and ask others to do the same.
Read, print out and share the privilege checklist.
Realize that privilege can be defined in different ways, but, as most of society defines it, men are more privileged than women.
When you are hiring a woman and it is time for wage negotiation, take into consideration that women have been conditioned to NOT negotiate such things. Pay her what you would pay a male for the same job.
Go out of your way to hire qualified women, especially ion fields that women are scarce in .
Encourage others to do the same.
Um, just read this site. Take a few weeks and check in twice a day, read the articles and the comments. It's called shutting up and educating yourself instead of stepping into a space as a privileged person and demanding that people spoon feed you information.
Are we trying to alienate men who are interested? He's being genuine, after all.
Sorry, I forgot I must coddle teh menz and not scare them off. I mean, it's not like his question could have been answered through a little time and work on a blog that's about the very question he asked!
Dude, seriously, as a white person who, after months and months of visiting, STILL gets twinges when reading Womanist Musings or Racialicious or Angry Black Bitch, and yet still keeps reading and educating myself and checking my privilege when I get upset by something I read there, I'm not too sympathetic towards a man who'd run off at the merest suggestion that they check their own male privilege. It's not about allies being given cookies for sticking around.
I was prepared for someone to say that I'm trying to "coddle teh menz." I've learned that practically any feminist imperative around educating men or drawing in men will be reduced to some catchy phrase about "teh menz." What a way to shut down conversation. If the goal is only to "be feminist," and have a catchy, smart-ass response to everything, we succeed with flying colors. But we're doing nothing to eliminate sexism.
And you must go to those sites because you comprehend privilege - and you're not dissuaded from visiting them because you comprehend privilege. *You* sticking around reading stuff by women of color doesn't determine the way some men will or even should respond to your suggestion that they "shut up." A guy who posts a question on this board asking about sexism might not comprehend privilege so well, or at least on a theoretical level so fine-tuned that his responses are practically automated (like people's on this board can sometimes be). A suggestion to think more about his own privilege isn't encoded in "shut up."
If someone really is so uneducated about sexism that they need to ask these 101 questions (about "harmful" sexism, no less, a phrase that llevinso dissected beautifully up above), there should not BE a conversation at this point.
He should read. And read some more. And after that, absorb and think and keep reading. And when he has the lingo and basic concepts down, and has Googled any buzzwords he can't figure out from the context of the blog, he can chime in in the comments and ask specific questions. That's like, the very basic rule for entering a space like this.
If you don't see something wrong with a man coming to a feminist website, which by its very definition is about sexism, a website that has years' worth of articles written by a variety of people and commented on by visitors who often have very intelligent and enlightening things to say, and demanding, "TELL ME WHAT THE MOST HARMFUL EXAMPLES ARE," I don't really know what else to tell you. He didn't even start off asking specific questions about individual articles in their comments section, he wrote an entire community post where we're supposed to educate him! Again, llevinso explained up above much better than I can what's wrong with this.
I never said I didn't see what was wrong with it. I'm saying that we can know what's wrong with it but temper our reactions so that we don't alienate people. The suggestion that we do this bothers some people because it means we might have to work harder and see that our automated responses don't work so well.
I know that you've already established that "not-alienating" people is the equivalent of coddling men for their ignorance, so I'm not really looking for you to "tell me anything," or in other words, educate me - don't worry about it.
Absolutely. Anyone who is an ally needs to know to educate themselves rather than asking to be educated as a favor.
As for day to day and week to week sexism, well, I guess I just want to say, what about growing up female in this country? Because sexism starts small and though it works against boys as well as girls, I've experienced it as a crushing force against me personally as a girl. It shaped my life and my choices before I was old enough or educated enough to understand it and work against its influence over me.
So what about this: What about being called on in class less than the boys by all my teachers, even the women? What about being shushed in junior high by boys in my class when I still raised my hand to answer questions? What about watching as the boys got praised more for their answers than I did for mine? What about deciding one day that maybe I don't like math and science after all even though I used to fraking love them and not really knowing why I turned myself off to them in school (while still reading science magazines at home because there it's just for fun)? What about realizing that my job could have been so much more satisfying and better paying if only I had stuck with those subjects that a lifetime of conditioning told me were not really for me? What about then having to listen to the men who've told me that other women stuck with it, so the fact that I didn't is a personal flaw and not an example of structural sexism? Gosh, those personal flaws seem to trip up so many of us women...
And then what about this: What about learning that I'm also advantaged in many ways without having earned it? What about realizing that every day of my life, something that is easy for me is too damn hard for someone else because of systematic, structural racism? Because of heterosexism and heteronormativity? Because of ableism?
These 2 things go together, because I can't write about oppressions directed against me without also writing about how I've benefited from the oppression of other people. My goal is not to win and join the top group, it's to change the damn game entirely. And to me that means listening to other people and valuing the truth of their experience (even if I can't see it so well from where I'm standing) just as much as it means speaking my own truth.
"Oh, they whine too much, those people." "It's just the way the world is and they need to accept it." "They just need to get over it." "It's just nature."
Those are comments I've heard by well meaning people who can't quiet down long enough to listen to a truth that's not their own.
also, while at work, when women are being assertive and taking charge, accept that behavior as you would from a man, describing it the same way you would if she was a he.
Do not EVER use the word Bitch to describe a female co-worker (or anyone that is not a female dog).
Do not use animals or cars to describe women.
If you call me a Cougar, I will call you a sexist and I will be right.
Also don't ever call a woman a "whore" or "ho." Because I'm pretty damn sure that the guy who was with her is just as guilty.
BTW and FYI
until sexism is eradicated all other isms thrive. So, perhaps you've been conditioned to champion against racism and not sexism?
If so, you're missing a great opportunity to be the change that benefits us all in this world.
51% of the population are being discriminated against right now.
What my mother told me growing up:
* If you're riding your bike or walking alone and a car pulls over directly ahead of you, immediately turn and bike/run in the direction from which the car was coming. (Yes, this has happened to me innumerable times since puberty.)
* Never accept an open drink at a party, even if you're with friends. Never consume a drink which has left your sight even for a moment once it was opened.
* Never consume food which is not also being consumed by your host or the giver.
* Never accept rides from ANYONE unless (1) you know them well and (2) a mutual friend knows who you're with.
* Don't take mass transit after dark if you're alone.
* Don't ever be drunk in public. EVER.
* If you say your boyfriend raped you, the police won't do anything. Never date anyone you don't think you could permanently injure.
* You can get HPV despite using a condom. It impacts fertility. Don't believe him when he says he's been tested; they don't usually test for them. You need to talk to prior girlfriends, because he won't know if he has it.
* Don't accept offers to travel with people. They might traffick you.
* Don't go anywhere alone.
* Here's how to tell if you've been drugged: A, B, C
* Here's how to tell if your relationship is becoming abusive: A, B, C
* Don't flirt with strangers.
* Carry an umbrella (in case of attack, not in case of rain).
What my parents told my brothers growing up:
* Don't backtalk to cops.
* Use a condom.
Oh god YES. I couldn't put it any better.
hell, my mother told me my relationship *would* become abusive and that it's something "women need to put up with to help their men."
ignore the sexism in that.
First I want to say that I appreciate it when a man is willing to learn about the sexism that woman face. Second I want to say that not everyone will click on your entry, read it, and comment. Not all of the women on here have the time to do that so in order to get the best sense of what sexism in our lives is and does take a look around. Read the posts, make comments. Question things you don't understand. Get ready to take some critisism from women who are trying to explain their positions to you. Third since I do have the time today I'll tell why sexism hurts women. As a general cover all of terms I'll just say that we do not have the freedom to choose what to do with our lives the way men do. Our freedoms are restricted from the government much more than men's are, and we do not get the benefit of the doubt with our decisions the way men do. Our government treats us like we are fragile and crazy. We sit in our classes and learn about freedom and revolution and all of these ideas but then we get out into the real world and realize that those ideas are held only for our male counterparts. Women are not included in these freedoms, and the reason for that is that our constitution does not clearly state that we are equal, and until that does happen sexism is going to hurt us, each and every day of our lives
I see sexism at work in homophobic comments directed at men. Those comments frighten me, as a straight-identified female, because I understand them to be based on foolish and limited notion of masculinity and femininity in which men are encouraged to dominate the world around them while women's existence is only reckoned important in relation to men (who must dominate us). Homophobia terrifies me personally because, among other things, I see that it has its roots in a thinly-veiled and deep disgust at women's bodies and sexuality.
Rereading my comment, it sounds off. And I don't want to be misunderstood if I can at all help it. I'm certainly not saying that the only homophobia that is sexist is that which is directed against men. That's absurd. I guess I meant that in my experience, the most virulent homophobic insults I've heard and, therefore, the ones that terrify me the most are those which male acquaintances use when referring to other men.
The inability to walk from A to B without being harassed (which happens every single time I walk without a man) and then having this experience diminished by male friends and boyfriends (so crazy-making in terms of reality-distorting tactics by men on top of the street harassment). I have developed quite severe agoraphobia as a result. The money I have spent having to deal with this is phenomenal. I had to buy a car and have had and still have copious amounts of therapy that I have to pay for.
And this is just one form of sexism!
Perhaps the quickest tutorial would be http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/
There is a link included on the first page to explain why you were sent there, and then many FAQs about the basics of feminism and sexism.
Dude, where to even begin? You realize that there are whole books written about this stuff, right? One post on one website asking for input just isn't going to cover it.
You also might want to think about the fact that as a man, you're not magically immune to the effects of patriarchy, either. A few examples of how our rigid gender roles affect you, too:
-If you stay home while your partner works, you're considered weak.
-If you cry during a sad movie, you're a wuss.
-If you want to wear a skirt, or make-up, or anything else traditionally feminine you will be likely be stared at, insulted, or even faced with violence.
-It's ok for a girl to be a tomboy (of course, we expect her to grow out of it and become stereotypically feminine later) but not for a boy to be a "sissy."
-Even if you're the rare male parent who spends equal or more time raising the kid(s), other people will think it's cute you're "babysitting" your own children.
-"Gay" is considered the ultimate insult, and gets applied to you when you do anything outside your prescribed gender role.
Etc.
Women certainly get the short end of the stick in almost every way when it comes to gender discrimination, but I do think we're all in this together, and it does nobody any good to adopt this "what sexism, where?" attitude that you seem to have.
I have commented on this subject before in various ways, but I am going to comment again because I want to support your effort to learn about sexism.
Ok, the main sexism I encounter revolves around the words "girls just don't do that" with no explanation. Here are some examples that come to my mind.
1.I know I have written on this 10000 times before, but the main sexism I encounter on a daily/weekly basis is based upon clothing and how I refuse to wear feminine clothes and choose to embrace masculine clothes. I have gotten into hundreds of arguments about how my suit/tie is hurting someone's feelings and is corrupting children.
2. The general assumption that I will someday have a boyfriend or husband. Or the "do this/that to get a man" kind of garbage. "Pluck your eyebrows/wear makeup" to get a man. Just the heterosexist assumption that I am DYING to get laid by someone male really irks me.
3. When I talk about my sexuality/crushes on girls/masturbation. People get really pissed/uncomfortable yet men can talk about the exact same thing and people say nothing.
4. The idea that because I do not conform to traditional beauty standards I am "ugly". It seems silly but it still bothers me a lot.
I guess a lot of the sexism I PERSONALLY encounter on a daily/weekly basis is tied into homophobia. But sexism and homophobia are closely related. Homophobia is kind of like Sexism's screaming, obnoxious toddler. Sexism tends to be more subtle/underlying in these sorts of situations.
Good Luck!
Oh c'mon folks, give the guy at least one chance before ripping him apart. If he denies or dismisses anybody's response, go at him.
On that note: sexist experience #1, having my experiences denied or dismissed. Drives me nuts. I was there, you were not, don't tell me what really happened.
Common sexist experience #2, the way that men seem to think that just because I am standing on the same planet as they are that I must be available for them to hit on. If you want to come over and strike up a friendly conversation, fine, but don't presume that I want you telling me how beautiful I am or anything of that nature. If I express a desire to be left alone, tell me to have a nice day and take off. You are not entitled to my company.
Um...no. Short answer, no. He already spent his one chance writing an "I AM IMPORTANT SO EDUCATE ME NAO" post, instead of going and maybe, I dunno, reading the blog he's on? Or the community posts? Or just googling "examples of sexism", or "feminism 101", or something like that. He enters a feminist space actively leaning on his privilege, and you want us to give him another chance BEFORE we start taking shit apart? No can do. It wasn't even a general request - no, he had to get specific about wanting examples of THIS KIND of sexism in THIS COUNTRY. Seriously, the kind of entitlement it takes to come into a feminist space as a man and demand that the women drop what they're doing to give him exactly the information he wants...
He is not entitled to our time and effort in meeting him on HIS terms in OUR space and spoon-feeding him education at his request. If he wants to be involved, he needs to get off his privileged ass and do the actual WORK required. If it's relying on one's privilege to, as a white person, ask a PoC to play "Mystical Negro" for you because it's more convenient than researching and reading on your own, then it's equally relying on one's privilege, as a man, to ask women to play "Wise Woman" for you for the same reason.
And no, we are not required to treat him gently. Confronting privilege isn't easy and it isn't fun. He needs to actually DO so, instead of just having the appearance of doing so and wanting his cookie for it.
I agree with you, Jadelyn. I chose to provide examples because I'm so saddened by the idea of someone leaving this thread and saying "see, they can't give me any reasons, so I'm right when I say there is no more sexism in my country..." And I think that's f-ed up, but I participate anyway. I think I've gotta reflect on this a bit...
Ok, he never implied that he thought anyone OWED him a response- he just asked a question. If everyone is too busy living their lives to educate him, they can simply not respond. Where in "So if you feel like giving me a lesson in current sexism i would much appreciate the chance to hear ..." do you see him DEMANDING to be spoon fed? Or the classic "How am I supposed to learn if YOU won't educate me? (And therefore, it's YOUR fault I'm ignorant)" He's not placing responsibility on the oppressed.
And you know, maybe he has read quite a few blog posts, but thinks they are a little academic/theoretical, so he'd like some everyday, tangible examples. And sure, he could find plenty of those if he dug a little. But I don't see what's wrong with asking nicely if anyone FEELS LIKE listing some examples for him.
In case that wasn't clear, I'll add:
If he asked a question and became pissed that no one responded it, or refused to do any homework himself, that would be a differenct story. But we don't know that he isn't doing additional reading, and we don't know that he EXPECTS a response.
1: Nobody asks a question without expecting a response. If you don't expect a response, there's no reason to ask the question.
2: If he's doing his own reading on the subject, why would he be asking about it here? There are metric fucktons of information on tangible expressions of sexism in everyday life out there. It's not hard to find. Not to mention, if he's doing his homework on his own as he should, he would most likely have come across SOMEONE explaining the basics of privilege and the need to educate YOURSELF before stepping into the conversation, and should have known better than to do this in the first place.
To step in like this and abdicate responsibility for his own education - particularly in such a skeptical, "I'm not sure sexism really exists like you women say it does" sort of way - is symptomatic of a man who has not even begun to confront his privilege. Not a beginning ally who's just mistaken.
"1: Nobody asks a question without expecting a response. If you don't expect a response, there's no reason to ask the question."
Ever heard of a rhetorical question?
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
To everyone who is tearing this person apart:
You are acting like superior, intellectual snobs. This person obviously has been intrigued by the idea of feminism and wants more information. It is true that he does not fully comprehend what privilege is and he is unaware of all the nuances of feminism. But that is why it makes perfect sense for him to come into this community and ask us for help - Because we regularly experience the things he does not understand and we can give him excellent insight into a subject he is new to.
The kind of attitude that we have given him is EXACTLY WHY a lot of people are turned off by feminism. Because it seems like some elitist club that some people just aren't smart enough/awesome enough to get into.
All the people shouting "OMG WHY DON'T YOU JUST READ THE BLOG!?!?!?" need to calm down and try to realize the situation from his perspective. It is probably very hard for someone who knows nothing about feminism to just jump right into the middle of this massive blog, read some articles, and understand what they mean. We are USED to reading these posts casually and understanding them because this is a subject that we have spent a lot of time with. But, I'm guessing he is having a hard time comprehending some of the advanced ideas, and this is why he wanted some individual attention. I don't think he was trying to be mean - he has good intentions and WANTS to learn more and understand. If he didn't, he wouldn't post something like this.
Bottom line: We need to be EDUCATORS. We should inform people about the sexism we experience and try to introduce people to these topics. We need to welcome people into this movement and inform them about the issues in order to make it aware to the world. We need to give people the impression that feminism can be for EVERYONE, not just the people with the smartest, wittiest little comments.
Let's communicate like decent human beings instead of snarky, sarcastic assholes.
I can see where everyone is coming from with their responses. Before I jump in again, I ought to say that I'm coming from the same place but reaching different conclusions about what that means (I hope my posts above demonstrate that).
I think we need to be careful with the way we are characterizing this poster - not to be contrary, but to move the conversation forward honestly. Once or twice on here someone has said, "He didn't actually say 'x,' but his post implied it." This gives us tremendous wiggle room - so what I'm saying is, he actually didn't "demand that the women drop what they're doing to give him exactly the information he wants," we are just seeing a demand because he's a man entering a feminist space. He was not actually demanding anything, in his words - my first response to it, before getting to the part where he said "as a man," was that this person was way too apologetic-sounding for wanting something, and after hearing he was a man, seeming really careful in his wording as if he was aware that he could at any point sound condescending. Now, I understand if people take his post itself in a different way, apart from his actual words, and focus on the fact that a man is asking for something "in a feminist space," but this is only one way of looking at it.
And all of us on here are, as you say about him, "leaning on privilege," because literacy doesn't fall out of the sky. There are tons of women and men who don't have the privilege to be posting conversations on a feminist blog - so is this really a feminist space when it's so NOT-democratic?
And it's interesting that we label some people's questions "101 questions," or call "intro" blogs "101 blogs," putting people in an academic frame. Depending on who you're talking to, Feministing is a 101 blog. I wouldn't say the conversations happening here are the pinnacle of feminist thought. So we don't even think about the fact that we use an academic metaphor to describe "beginner feminism." That's where our minds are when it comes to classifying people's questions, but not always when it comes to educating.
Yet, I understand that some people have parameters for when it's acceptable to engage with someone we believe is acting helpless and wants to be "spoonfed," as people have been saying. I agreed that referring him to the rest of the site is a good idea - but I'm worried that even after some elaborate schema of googling terms, reading posts, and a careful, measured silence from him (as some were suggesting), we still might not be interested in what he has to say because of our conceptions of a feminist space and feminism itself.
There are many dimensions to this issue that aren't being brought out because we are focused on man entering feminist space, how dare he. So my question is, where does this outrage lead us? Is it productive? And is it the kind of knee-jerk reaction that we criticize in others?
The problem isn't a man entering a feminist space. There is plenty of room for feminist allies. However, we expect that if they want to be part of the conversation, they will have done the work to educate themselves on basic issues like male privilege, everyday manifestations of sexism, y'know, exactly what this guy decided to try to get spoonfed to him instead of researching on his own.
You're seriously missing the point if you think the outrage is JUST about a man entering a feminist space.
Maybe you could elaborate more on your point - because I disagree that there is "THE point" and not many to be taken here. I also disagree that this guy was offensive enough to be characterized the way he's been on this board so far. Many haven't focused on the words he actually used and the way he really politely requested (not "demanded") information about women's experiences. So that should lead people to believe that the outrage is at least partly about a man entering a feminist space (I see the man could be a potential feminist ally but not just a feminist?). We wouldn't be reacting to a woman in the same way - and we can't rule out that there are women who flat-out deny that sexism exists, some because they've been protected by many privileges.
Like I said, I would contest that this is actually a feminist space - it's feminist in its description and in who contributes, but not feminist in an egalitarian sense. Maybe it aspires to be, but so many people are excluded. So it would seem that self-righteous views would have to be tempered some so that more people could participate. I say bring everyone to the table and make some suggestions without verbally ridiculing them for things they might not understand yet. WE all didn't come to feminism fully-formed in our thought, so why would we expect others to be? Is it that he's a man and should be able to take the verbal ridicule? Or that he somehow deserves the ridicule for coming to this website and asking a question? I say put all that aside - we don't have a moment to waste.
THE point, the main point in all this, is: allies educate themselves. One who is a member of the privileged group who wishes to ally veself with the non-privileged group's struggle, is expected to take the time and effort to seek out information on ves own, not just walk in and say "hey, I'm here, educate me now, ok?" No matter how politely ve does it, it is still rude and a sign of entitlement and unconfronted privilege.
The thing is, this particular poster asked very politely, and that's true. However. HOWEVER. There are MANY, MANY places on these vast intarwebs that he could have gotten exactly the information he just waltzed in here and asked us for. A quick googling would have gotten him a place to start, and then you just play follow-the-linkies from there. Only he chose not to do the work himself. He chose to expect us to hold his hand and do the work for him, which is symptomatic of his unconfronted privilege. No matter how politely it's done, that's still problematic in the extreme, and not something we should refrain from calling out.
(A note on terminology: I use the term feminist ally for men who align themselves as feminists, in the same way I use the term trans ally for myself as a ciswoman who aligns myself with the cause of transgender/transsexual rights. I am not a member of the oppressed class of that movement, therefore I do not wish to claim ownership where I do not have that right by taking on the name for myself. Instead I use ally to denote my agreement with the tenets and at the same time denote my desire not to lean on my privilege. I feel the same standard applies to men who agree with and promote feminism. They are allies.)
Next point: Um, of course we wouldn't be responding to a woman the same way. Because, see, this is about male privilege and expectations in a feminist space. A woman, even an anti-feminist woman, entering a feminist space does not bring male privilege with her. What with the whole being a woman thing. So, yes, there would be a different reaction because it would be a different situation and, if it were problematic, it would be problematic for different reasons entirely.
Of course none of us came to feminism with our ideas fully-formed. And I know I, at least, took a few well-earned beatings about the head with a clue-by-four during my initial learning phase. I think everyone does. But I'm a fan of tough love, you see, and I don't think it helps anyone to coddle the newbies. It takes up our time and resources, it helps to preserve any privilege they may be hanging on to (in the case of men who are new to feminism), not to mention assuming that people are just too delicate to hear unvarnished and unsoftened truth. Which I think is a great deal more insulting than a hard-phrased but honest "You're being an asshole. Rethink this."
Lastly: Feministing is a nominally feminist space. It misses a metric fuckton of intersectionality, the community blogs are rather hit-or-miss...The thing with Feministing is it's a starter ground. Most more-advanced feminists move on to more advanced feminist spaces, like Shakesville and Feministe, and only hang around here as a sideline. If you want to see the purest iteration of a feminist space I have ever encountered, hang around a Shakesville comment thread or two. But I really fail to see where this thread is somehow not egalitarian, simply because a bunch of us are pointing out the male privilege this particular poster has brought with him. Should he be immune to criticism because he's a man? No. I'm not going to put my criticism aside to sing kum-ba-ya. You can baby people along if you like; but I have other things to do with my time than soothe bruised egos and tenderly point out offensive actions in a gentle and non-threatening voice. As you say, there's no time to waste.
"(A note on terminology: I use the term feminist ally for men who align themselves as feminists, in the same way I use the term trans ally for myself as a ciswoman who aligns myself with the cause of transgender/transsexual rights. I am not a member of the oppressed class of that movement, therefore I do not wish to claim ownership where I do not have that right by taking on the name for myself. Instead I use ally to denote my agreement with the tenets and at the same time denote my desire not to lean on my privilege. I feel the same standard applies to men who agree with and promote feminism. They are allies.)"
And yet there are instances where men are the victims of the patriarcy (see for example fathers who want to be treated as competent equal parents in all respects). In this sense it would be the men who are the feminists and the women the allies. An ally is just a feminist who isn't directly disadvantaged in the first instance by the topic presently being discussed. In the broader sense all activists for gender equality are feminists because our cause advantages women and men.
I quite like your terminology, I just thought it was worth a reminder that it's not always women = feminists, men = allies; sometimes it's reversed sometimes both men and women are simultaneoulsy feminist and ally.
For the sake of a variety of opinions, I think that men can be feminists (I think that the patriarchy can harm men in a way that is unique compared to how other 'isms affect -- or don't, really -- their corresponding privileged people), although I absolutely co-sign everything else Jadelyn has said.
Jadelyn,
Thanks for clueing me in, since I'm such a dumbass. (That's my attempt at the infamous feminist sarcasm - maybe you can also tell me if I have that down right.)
Male privilege isn't the only thing that's at issue here - speaking of "missing a fuckton of intersectionality," women who come to this space, to whom we would react differently than we would to men, all don't experience gender oppression in the same way. Many have been protected from it in various ways, and many exercise tons of privileges despite being women. We should be uncomfortable with your neatly-characterized "male privilege/female oppression" schema. These kinds of comments, delineating feminist spaces as for women-feminists and men-allies, just very impractically draw up roles each of us plays in feminist movement. This is one reason I don't identify as a feminist - just ridiculous bickering over who can be what and why, usually decided by someone theorizing in ways that make it very difficult for them to even talk to people who aren't familiar with feminism. I'm all for "tough love," but we disagree on what that means.
How's your version been working out for feminism? It takes no prisoners and won't sacrifice its values for anything or else it stops being feminist (similar to many religious denominations that are roundly criticized in feminist circles...interesting). Good luck with all that.
I just wanted to tell you that I completely agree with everything that you're saying.
:)
Well, I read his request as a search for the most prevalent everyday examples of sexism or those that feminists most commonly recognise. In a nutshell, which are the most common forms of sexism you encounter? It's not a what is sexism post, it's more specific than that.
Yes, there are sites like this, but are the most common posts the things you deal with everyday or those things that stand out the most? Certainly, it is difficult for a newcomer with a limited sensitivity of these things to determine.
Plus, everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that even though he (a single individual) is asking the quesion, we are answering it for everyone who investigates here. If answered well once, then the next enquirer can be pointed at the specific thread and not told to peruse the whole site.
Oh, and to answer the question, I personally, ever day, hate it when:
*Cashiers/shopkeepers hit on me as part of a BUSINESS TRANSACTION
*People catcall when I am out running- fuck you, I will wear short shorts and a tank top because I am sweating like a beast and need to cool off, and no, that is not a sexual invitation on my part.
*Men try to walk through me on the street/in subway stations, because they assume I will be intimidated and jump out of their way. Sorry dude, the space I occupy is not inferior to the space you occupy, and we will in fact collide unless we BOTH alter our course a little. And no, avoiding eye contact does not make me disappear.
While there are lots of examples of sexism on a mass scale (wage gap, sexual violence, reproductive rights), I will give you some examples of sexism that impacts me, a white, upper middle class female college student, on a regular basis:
-Being oggled/catcalled/whistled at. Sure, it seems harmless. But it reduces a woman to her body and men who do this seem to think that women are just sexually available for them. It is a huge problem that men think they have the right to consume and judge women's bodies, even the bodies of strangers.
-If you watch TV or read magazines, you will see both ads and content that reinforce gender stereotypes and objectify women.
-The "double standard." Did you ever notice how men who sleep around are not condemned, but women who do are generally considered undesirable? Men are generally encouraged to be sexual, but women are shamed away from it. To be completely honest, I think this double standard is fading, but I still see it from time to time in things that people say or the way that the media treats celebrities.
-Fear to go out alone at night. The idea that it is not safe for girls to go out alone at night has been instilled in me since I was a young teen. Sometimes this fear impacts my choices. If I need to go study in the library but it's dark, I will not go. Men do not have this fear. Sure, they might fear being mugged, but they do not go through the list of precautions that women take all the time to avoid being raped.
-Scrutiny over physical appearance. Women are judged far more on their physical appearance and fashion choices than men. Unlike men, whose clothes can only send a few messages: casual or professional, lots of things are read into the way women dress. My parents have criticized me for going out with some male friends with clothes that were too provocative. Women are judged to be slutty, smart, stupid, prude, fake, etc.. based on how they look.
-Women who get angry or confrontational (or even just stand up for themselves) are called "bitchy." I have been called a bitch before for arguing passionately with men, holding strong opinions, or refusing to take bullshit. These characteristics are celebrated in men. People don't realize they are doing it, but women are expected to be composed and quiet.
-Men feel they have a right to a lot more space than women. Next time you are riding public transportation or at a concert or sports game, see if you can notice what I'm talking about. Men spread their legs wide, sometimes blocking empty seats when there are people without seats. Now, I understand if the person is physically larger that they might need more than one seat, but oftentimes, they are not a big person.
Another example of this. I was recently at a concert at an arena. There was a man I didn't know sitting next to me on one side. We all ended up standing for most of the concert, and he kept shifting his weight and moving into my space. At one point, half of his body was literally in front of mine, obscuring my view of the show. Rather than start a confrontation with a drunk asshole, I kept my elbows out so he would run into them and then move away.
-Men interrupt a lot more than women.
-The dating practice of men paying for women is antiquated (and really sucks for guys!). My boyfriend and I split alternate who pays for meals.
I hope this helps you understand a little more. I'm sure most of these things seem harmless to you, but on the whole, they combine to create a system of oppression against women where our movements, voices, and freedoms are restricted compared to those of men. We are deemed less important and less valuable than men, and the parts of us that ARE valuable are seen to be our boobs and butts and pretty faces, not our minds, our personality, or our humanity.
It's not our responsibility to hold our hand and explain how we're oppressed.
Google Male Privilege
I'm going to add, the purpose of this entire fucking blog is to explain how sexism effects us.
Maybe you should read it.
To answer your question, here are some things I experience on a day-to-day basis:
1. My parents getting mad at me for cutting my hair because "short hair is for boys!" Forgive me for wanting easy-to-manage hair!
2. My parents continually harassing my little brother for acting "girly." Girly things include: crying when he gets hurt, expressing disappointment when things go wrong, wearing sandals, playing with anything that could be considered pink-ish or purple-ish, enjoying stuffed animals, being afraid of anything...
3. My little sister being embarrassed to be with me when I do the simplest things that deviate from what is considered feminine, like wearing knee-length shorts instead of booty shorts.
4. Not getting taught certain things at work because "those are jobs for men!"
5. People ridiculing me and my boyfriend whenever they find out I paid for something instead of him.
6. People getting SHOCKED whenever I say FUCK.
7. Guys getting grossed out whenever I talk about sex, even if they are the kind of people who explain, in detail, the sex they had with their girlfriend last night.
8. Not being taken seriously as an authority figure. If I act authoritative, I am seen as "bitchy" and "bossy." Guys act the SAME WAY and get labeled as having "good management skills!"
That is all I can think of right now. But I know there is much, much more.
So, I'm just going to be very direct here, because while I see the problems with your post I hate to let you leave thinking your point proven. So here are some incidents that have happened to me IN THE LAST TWO DAYS, the reason they are sexist, and how they make an obvious, direct, negative impact in my life.
- I was enthusiastically informing my mom about the possibility of working as an immigrant rights advocate, mentioning how it would feel good to help people that wanted it as so often I feel as though I am trying to help people against their will (more on that in a moment). My mom's answer? Maybe if I wore make up and looked nicer, more people would take me seriously. What women need, she insisted, was a beautiful woman who was also smart. Apparently, my mom doesn't think that women will listen to someone unless their beautiful, and that I can only be beautiful if I wear make up.
Reason It's Sexism: Men are not made to feel as if they need to be beautiful in order to be seen as intelligent and listened to by their peers.
Reason It's Openly Harmful: Such thinking encourages women to place more values on their looks than their education/intelligence, as well as informs women that they should not take someone seriously unless they meet a certain level of cultural attractiveness. In other words, we teach our girls they should only like someone if they are pretty and will only be liked if they themselves are pretty.
- At work, a man came up and grabbed my arm, giving it a squeeze. He said "You look so pretty, let's see how you feel. Yep, you feel just as pretty!" He then asked his friend to feel my arm as well. I had to walk into the back of the store because these men felt free to grab me.
Reason It's Sexist: Men feel as if they have a claim to my body, as if I am an object rather than a person. Doubtless, they would have been far more respectful of a male body.
Reason It's Harmful: In this case, it's physically harmful. If we promote the idea that women's bodies are public, we give some allowance to men to touch them at will and dehumanizes women. So, with this culture in mind, violence towards women should come as no surprise. I was not physically harmed in this case, but I was intimidated and went as far as to leave an area because of their "right" to grab me.
- Similarly, when I was seating another group of men (they even had a woman with them) they said they only wanted a "pretty girl waitress." My coworker laughed and said she'd see what she could do. When I was walking them back to their table, the men preceded to say they would take me (as their waitress, but the double meaning did not go unnoticed or unlaughed at by the group).
Reason It's Sexist: They were openly making sexual comments about a stranger (me) and judging me based entirely on appearance. This is a supposed family restaurant, but instead of considering how good a server might be, they were more interested in her physical attractiveness, so that is another case where a woman's "beauty" is made to be her most defining trait. The jokes on sexuality were entirely inappropriate and, again, reflect the idea that women's bodies are public objects, therefore to refer to them in such a way is not the same as, say, treating an actual PERSON in that manner, they're just women. Again, I was made to feel intimidated at work. Harmful.
- My boss constantly calls some of the other female employees pretty/beautiful, and compliments them by telling them they would make great housewives. Females with no experience are often hired on as hostess, the lowest paying position. Men hired at the same time with the same experience are hired as servers. The management, in general, takes a sexist look at workers.
Why It's Sexism: He sure as hell doesn't tell the boys they would make good househusbands. The idea that the ultimate goal for women is to be a stay at home wife/mother, and that any career/education goals are less desired by women, is just classic sexism.
Why It's Harmful: It creates a very negative impact at work. Imagine being afraid to be alone with your boss, or hearing comments that make you uncomfortable and just sitting through them smiling because if you say anything you will be the one in trouble. Not to mention the promotion of the idea that work, for women, is simply a hold over until they are able to stay in the home. A lot of the people I work with support themselves, both men and women. Our boss values male work over female work, so who do you think gets the good shifts, positions, and sections? At our level (server) there are slightly more females than males. One level higher (bar tender) and the numbers go down to 6:1 men to female. At the management level... Well, I have met 14 managers. One has been female. If both are trying to support themselves/a family, then why do the women find themselves in lower paying positions with so much more frequency? We just had one server who has worked with us for six years quit after six men where moved ahead of her to be bartender/management, having worked in the company anywhere from three years to four months.
- (I lied, this incident is from a while ago, but I feel it illustrates the point.) A male coworker of mine once grabbed a female coworkers ass in front of a table full of strange men, saying that if they needed anything, they should just grab her like that and she'd do anything for them. She freaked out, but was too scared to report for fear of being called a liar, even though it was on video. After I reported on her behalf, she was called into the office, and made to feel very much so like she'd done something wrong/had to prove what happened. The server was sent home. For one night. No further disciplinary action was taken. What had happened and who had told was made public, and they allowed backlash against me and the girl for "trying to get the male server fired".
- Why It's Sexism: Because it is.
- Why It's Harmful: You better believe that it's harmful on all sorts of levels to be grabbed by a man two times you side (this guy is built like a line baker. He often pushes around people at the restaurant, but no one can really do anything because of his size), publicly humiliated, refereed to as a sexual object, AND offered up sexually to strangers. Then to have to go through a public shaming for feeling embarrassed? Yes, it was harmful and, no, this is not an old story. This is the USA 2009 in a restaurant that is more than likely identical to a hundred others, and these experiences are probably shared by thousands of other women to some extent or another. Which is why she knew reporting wouldn't do more than get him a slap on the wrist, because she's seen this before, and we're taught that we - as females - need to not report unless it's "serious" because so many women "lie about being sexually harassed". This allows all the actual harassment to continue in this type of manner.
So, that's the last two days plus one. You should note that in the last two days I have been exhausted due to a move, and so have done very little but work, pack, and sleep. I spend most of the day alone. Yet all this still managed to happen, and I wasn't even out and about that much.
Yes, I took worked as a hostess for an upscale Italian Restaurant. I ended up quitting because the management was known for grabbing the servers and hostesses, saying sexual things all the time, and ignoring customers who would treat the servers or hostesses in this way.
Personally, I was there for about 2.5 months. I was grabbed several times, had my butt touched, and was victim of constant comments like "Why don't you come home and suck my dick tonight" from MANAGEMENT. I also got similar treatment from various customers. Not to mention that the owner had no qualms about trying to set up servers/hostesses with customers at the bar and expected us to go up and flirt with these strangers and let them hug/grab us.
I ended up quitting without two weeks notice because of a situation where the owner of the restaurant got tipsy at the bar. I was helping the bartender behind the bar, so the owner started talking to me about whether or not I drink, do drugs, party, etc. I said no. He started saying insults to me (all in front of three other workers), related to me being retarded. His mood shifted and he asked if I liked football players, to which I said no. He got mad and started "accusing" me of being a lesbian (as though it were an insult".
Needless to say, I left early and did not return. That place was horrible, but I've heard that most restaurants are not that intense. I can only hope.
I never felt safe alone with these coworkers. My apartment was on the same block as the restaurant. I would usually get out at about 10 and would walk home very briskly. This is because of being hit on so much at the restaurant. I definitely didn't feel safe. And men on the street would often catcall, which made me feel even less secure. There was also a parking lot attendant between the area I had to walk through that was always making sexual flirty comments when I would pass. I didn't know him at all.
Sexism I've experienced recently:
-A friend of mine got uncomfortably close to me and started sniffing me because he said he "smelled something fruity" and he assumed it was coming from me because, in his words, "you're a girl."
Negative impact: Invading my personal space.
-I work at a call center. I have to take a certain amount of calls every day and each call has to be under a certain amount of time. I constantly get guys who want to flirt with me on the phone when I'm trying to get their order through as fast as possible. I probably get sexually harassed by a customer about eighty percent more often than the male employees do.
Negative impact: Wasting my time and effecting my job performance.
-Every time I turn on my TV, it tells me I'm too fat, too short, too light-skinned, too dark-skinned, too old, my skin is too dry, my clothes are not good enough, I'm worthless if I don't have a husband, I'm weird for not having children, I should be doing a lot more laundry, my lips aren't moist enough, my tits aren't perky enough, I'll never get laid because I wear glasses, and generally tries to kill my self-esteem and brainwash me into thinking I'm not good enough unless I guy so-&-so product. As a result, I don't watch TV anymore.
Negative impact: It should really be obvious... Numerous psychological studies have shown that if someone is told they are worthless over and over again, eventually they will start to believe it.
-While writing this, a man came to my door asking if I wanted him to mow my lawn. I told him I'd think about it. He said, "That's fine, go ahead and ask your husband about it and see if he wants me to do it and I'll be back on Wednesday." I'm not married. I never want to be. Also, I can make decisions about my lawn by myself, thank you very much.
Negative impact: My opinion is undermined because I am female.
-I was angry at work the other day because it was an hour and a half before the end of my shift before I got a lunch break. A friend of mine says, "It's that time of the month, isn't it?" as if my anger is somehow invalidated if there's blood spewing out of my vagina. And no, it wasn't "that time of the month".
Negative impact: For some reason, a lot of people (mostly men) have the impression that a period brings on a week-long bout of mental illness and nothing that a female says or does can ever be rational during this time. I like to be taken seriously no matter what time of the month it is, thank you.
-Didn't happen to me personally, but a female friend of mine was mugged a while back and called "bitch" and "little girl" while it was happening. They probably wouldn't have tried to mug her if they didn't feel she was an easy target.
Negative effect: Don't even get me started on the amount of violence perpetrated against women in this country...
-Two-thirds of my female friends have been raped, molested or otherwise sexually assaulted.
Negative effect: Yeah... I don't even have to explain this one.
Random facts about sexism in general:
-Women still earn about 25 cents less than men per dollar.
-Women are 12 times more likely to be murdered by their spouse/boyfriend/intimate acquaintance than by a stranger. Women are also twice as likely to be murdered by a spouse/partner than a man.
-Even if you factor in men unwilling to report such things, women are still about 5 times more likely to be raped than men.
-In most states, I cannot get a tubal ligation if I haven't already given birth. My boyfriend can get a vasectomy as long as he's over 21.
Pet peeve:
It never, ever, ever, EVER seems to have occurred to a single male I've ever met that I could think he's a slut.
Now, I've been called a slut and I am probably the least sexual person over about 13 that I know. I have spent time self-policing over whether or not I was dressed slutty, whether or not my attempts to interact with another human who happens to have a different gender would be perceived as flirting and therefore I would be perceived as slutty, whether or not allowing my boyfriends (back when I tried having them... huge mistake) to do *anything* remotely sexual (and we weren't even close to approaching actual sex) would make me seem like a slut. The one person I met that actually did stir some sort of sexual feelings in me--I spent a lot of time worrying that if I went along with things too quickly, he'd think I was a slut. Because, being a girl, this notion of "being a slut" EXISTS as a possibility that can apply to me.
On the other hand, I can't even *count* how many dudes have tried to pick me up *explicitly* by detailing what incredibly easy catches they were, what completely low standards they had, how utterly unable they were to control themselves and their hormones, and how pathetically addicted they were to sex that they would lie and fake their way towards getting it. Or at least, that's what it sounded like to me, because that's how I figured it'd be interpreted if I said that. I never learned the male halves of double standards growing up because I never gave a shit, but from my recent research, it would appear that many men believe in quantity over quality, or, even if quality is considered, that women are some sort of collectible item in a computer game, and the more they can collect, the better they must be at the game. (That, or I think they think it gives the illusion of there being "competition" or something, despite the fact that there can only be "competition" in a contest where some people lose, too.)
Growing up female, the things I did manage to learn about this dating business were:
1. Even the dumbest of dumb sluts knows you need to pretend that the *other* person is somehow special or has redeeming qualities or, y'know, that you like something--anything--about them other than the fact that they are your target gender. Going on only about your *own* redeeming qualities doesn't make *them* feel very special.
2. Even the dumbest of dumb sluts knows that "hard to get" is desirable--it makes the other person feel more awesome and special and desirable and generally like it's about THEM and stuff if they're not just doing the same shit every other doofus on the block managed to accomplish by catching your eye for an evening.
3. Even the dumbest of dumb sluts knows that simply noticing somebody's gender is NOT THAT HARD in about 98% of cases.
And so when guys try to pick me up by bragging about how they've had LOTS of women, HUNDREDS of women *cue caveman chestbeating*, and expect me to feel very FLATTERED that they noticed I'm a woman too and want to add me as one more insignificantly small number on a very long list, because that's not just them being slutty at ALL... that shit's fucking sexist.
And it happens to me pretty often.
Note: I do not approve of slut-shaming. I have no problem with "slutty" men per se, no more than I have with women that are derided as "slutty". I have a problem with people using the EXACT same behavior that would make me LESS desirable (I get hit on so much because I am known as A Challenge) to try and paint themselves as MORE desirable, because they're so invested in the male-as-pursuer/female-as-pursued model of sexuality that they can't even realize that it's the exact. Same. Freakin'. Behavior.
I work through a temp agency and was recently told by a co-worker that her "boss" at the agency suggested she "needed to smile more."
I once had someone - a friend and former co-worker - say that she thought women who had one-night stands should not even be alive and liberally tossed around the words "slut" and "whore" for women who dressed scantily.
Try having to write a rebuttal to some d-bag sports editor at my university student newspaper over his opinion column insisting that Erin Andrews actually wanted to be videotaped naked without her consent and, even if she didn't, she was asking for it anyway - and really has no value or merit as a human being besides her appearance.
My mother treats my younger brother's irresponsibilities (gambling, heavy drinking, constantly getting fines for stupid shit, being disrespectful to pretty much everybody in the family) as tiresome but normal and inevitable and regularly helps pay his rent and car insurance. She flips out when I'm at my parents' and would like to have a beer. I've never gambled or gotten a fine - much less a fine for drinking - in my life.
Having my neighbor's considerably older, stupid, creepy-ass boyfriend actually stumble into my apartment drunk at 4 a.m. and wake me up because I happened to leave my door open and unlocked. I got up, terrified, and had to chase him out myself.
Oh. I forgot that, because I'm interested in women's issues and often point out sexism and/or injustices in various discussions, I've actually been asked by coworkers (1) whether I'm lesbian; (2) whether I shave my armpits.
Incidentally (as we're supposed to believe so much sexism is, you know), most of the bosses at my job are men, and most of the lower-paid workers, some lacking insurance, are women. I have more education than my current male boss, but I'm working a job with no health insurance.
Paying for birth control pills. I have not once had a boyfriend volunteer to help pay for the pill. I've had several, however, who certainly enjoyed not wearing condoms. How nice.
Coworkers telling me it's "gross" and "impolite" that I occasionally don't wear a bra.
Perhaps you need to go into a class of college freshman and try to teach about social issues. You'll be amazed and appalled by the sexism that high-school kids have absorbed in their short lives.
Being told by members of my own family that I should shave my armpits, while my father walks around with hairy armpits right in front of them.
Being frightened walking home from the train station because there aren't many street lights, and I know that if someone wanted to rape me, nobody would see.
Being told that my skirt is too short - "too short for what?" is my standard response.
Telling people that I'm the director of a theatre piece and having people be completely flabbergasted at the concept of a young woman having a job title like "director". When I go shopping for props, they ask me if I'm an assistant.
People assuming that I have no carpentry skills, but I do have sewing skills (still!).
Being one of two women on the board of management of a theatre company, and being the Secretary (the other woman is Vice-Secretary). Without meaning to, I'm sure, everyone thinks that Secretary is a girl's job.
Maybe these things don't seem harmful to you, but they are, because they position me as something other than normal. I have my own issues just because I'm a woman.
If you're interested in more double standards, check out Jessica's book - 'He's a stud, she's a slut, and 49 other double standards every girl should know'. It's a great 101 to everyday sexism.
Perhaps a male privledge checklist?
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/
all of this effort and responding by all of us and this dude hasn't even come back and said thanks!
I quite liked what preppy had to say.
But to answer your question: many day-to-day examples of sexism have been mentioned, but one I'd like to add is that when out shopping with my husband, everyone speaks to him.
Buying a car? Speak to the man.
Appliances? Speak to the man.
A computer? Speak to the man.
Real Estate? Speak to the man.
A pet? Speak to the man.
Anything from a hardware store? Speak to the man.
Unless I am buying clothes or groceries - in which case I assume I'm viewed as an expert simply because "that's what women shop for" - everyone from fellow shoppers to salespeople to cashiers to managers speak to my husband and ignore me. Men and women. And if I am alone, they often ask if I need to consult "someone." I take that as code for "a man."
But most of all I consciously pause and think "god that was/is sexist" because of the shocked faces they make when they realize I am the negotiator, not my husband. And that to make the sale, they need to speak to me.
Forgot to add...
I won't try to guess whether this is an obvious harm to you based on the way you phrased your post, but it is harmful because it is an attempt to undermine my autonomy. And it will if I let it.
It also sets a bad example for my daughter, teaching her by example that she as a female will not be considered as capable. If I don't combat this with her, she could grow up believing she truly isn't as capable because of her sex.
To me, THAT is the worst harm. That women treated this way will believe it is the way they ought to be treated.
giving you the benefit of the doubt too,
Here's my day to day stuff
-being paid less than a male
-not feeling safe when alone on a dark street, a parking lot, jogging alone in a park etc. This I terribly resent. Knowing that if anything happened to me it would be judged to be my fault for not being in a safe environment. So therefore restrictions in my freedom of movement
- the presumption that volunteer work will be done by moms. Obviously because our time is not worth as much as the dads. The extreme praise that my husband gets for volunteering at the school for doing THE EXACT same thing as the 30 other mothers have been doing for years.
-the conversations addressed to my husband though I am quite clearly there and am not a vegetable.
-the presumption of me not knowing about cars, technology, etc
-the shock when I can lift as much as them.
-men who barrel through because of their "space entitlement", walking on a sidewalk, sitting spreadlegged on a subway, taking a parking spot.
-the question "are you allowed to make a decision on this without consulting your spouse?".
-also is it so shocking that I love boxing matches. Really?? This has been a very surprising reaction here in the US. Is it an American thing?
Look through this sight. There are plenty of sexist things happening in America.
And as for harmful things that happen to women? How about the fact that your female coworkers probably make less money than you? However, women live longer, so their money has to be stretched farther. How do women make less money than men, when their are more women than men going to college. If me and my brother went to the same college, ended up in the same careers, at the same job, he would make more money. No matter what, my brother is most likely to make more money than me. My boyfriends are going to be considered the breadwinners, because of sexism, even if I'm more competent than them.
If my brother never gets married, he'll be considered a free spirit, or whatever. If I'm not married,I'll be viewed as a poor loser woman because I could never get a guy to commit, even though I never WANT to get married!
How can you say there is no harmful sexism. My future is in jeopardy because I am a woman.
Oh, and another thing is when guys treat lesbian and bisexual couples as there playthings, a relationship meant to entice your fantasies, not an actual relationship between two people who genuinely care about each other.
1. "Nobody asks a question without expecting a response. If you don't expect a response, there's no reason to ask the question."
Maybe YOU don't ask questions without demanding compliance of the people you ask. But some people will throw a question out there, and if they get a response, great, and if they don't, no biggie. Because you know, maybe they're already looking in lots of other places as well. And that right there is the part where he is NOT NECESSARILY placing responsibility on the oppressed group to educate him.
Whoops, that was meant to be a reply to a comment upthread.
I'm going to mostly give this guy the benefit of the doubt. But first I want to reiterate what's been said - it's not the job of women to teach men how to not be sexist. I'd say that assumption is one of the sexist things I experience pretty much all the time.
Also, ALL sexism is harmful. Sexism by definition belittles and dehumanizes women, and the constant atmosphere of supposedly "benign" sexism in the form of entertainment, jokes, fashion, whatever just makes the really horrendous stuff possible. It's all on the same continuum.
Here are more:
- Being assigned all the menial tasks at my job which no one notices unless they don't get done, whereas my male co-worker who has exactly the same job title as me gets assigned to big projects for which he gets praise and credit.
- being expected to take care of the emotional needs of men. Ex: Don't act too smart, you might make him feel bad!
- Constantly having my personal space infringed upon by men. Ex: I have to squeeze into a subway seat and cross my legs while the dude next to me splays his legs open and relaxes.
- All the males in my life seem to think my food is really theirs. My male friends eat off my plate, my boyfriend eats my leftovers without asking, my male coworkers feel just fine taking communal food at double the rate of the female workers.
- Despite the fact that I have never gotten a ticket or been the cause of an accident, pretty much any male who rides in my car feels the need to make jokes about my driving - or not even my driving, but women's driving in general.
- My clothes are more expensive than my boyfriend's and they fall apart faster.
- I'm subjected to the nasty bodily functions of all my male friends/boyfriend, from farting, belching, 45 minute long pooping sessions, the horking morning spit, whatever. If I did the same, as obnoxiously...I don't even know what would happen. I've been so well trained to hide all this stuff.
- When my parents or my boyfriend's parents come over to the house we share the mess is ALWAYS my responsibility. (His parents: Well, she doesn't keep this place very nice, does she? My parents: Aren't you embarrassed to let the boyfriend see what a slob you are?)
- Having it assumed by everyone that I love and long for babies and huge showy weddings, when I have never once wanted either. And when I tell this to people they either completely dismiss me (them: Oh, you'll change your mind *wink.* You just haven't found the right man yet.) Or they think I'm some kind of superfreak (I seriously had someone say she couldn't be my friend because I didn't want children. She said women who don't want babies are sociopaths.)
- When a man shows interest in my artwork, I have to wonder if he really just wants to get in my pants. OH! And, in case I forget this, if I tell my family, boyfriend, friends that some man is interested in my art inevitably they will insinuate that he's probably just after my ass. Just so I don't get too uppity, I guess.
- Don't even get me started on advertising. Seeing women's bodies constantly used as nothing but tools to make some dude some money is completely dehumanizing. Likewise, being othered in this way (why is beer only for men?) is totally dehumanizing.
-constant fear for my personal safety. I am 5'4" and I weigh 110 pounds. There is no way on this planet I could defend myself against an attack by a 6 ft. tall 250 pound man, yet I'm told that I should all the time. It's implied that if I am injured in an attack and don't "fight back" then it's my own fault. Seriously? This is like expecting the average man to defend himself, with his keys, against an attack by a bear.
- the lengths to which I am expected to go just to be considered "hygienic."
Ok, now I'm pissed off and I'm going to stop. Still not seeing any sexism in the western world?
you summed up all of my thoughts. The one thing I would add is SPORTS and SCIENCE. I was the only girl in my geology classes and it had to be pointed out EVERY SINGLE DAY by my professor. it was so annoying and I felt like he was only pointing it out to point out that I didn't belong in the "all boys club"
I hear you on the whole marriage/babies and house cleaning bit. Every time a girl would come to our apartment - she'd be like, "why don't you pick up?" and if she had looked around, she would have realized that 95% of the clothes and mess laying around were HIS, not MINE. We both work, and even when he's laid off for the summer, I'm still expected to pull most of the house work weight. I get judged for the messy apartment - not him.
I feel like I've always been undervalued by most poeple in society because I don't adhere to gender beauty standards (I don't wear make-up, I don't wear dresses and skirts or high heels). I constantly deal with men AND women telling me I'd look "sexier" with make-up and tighter clothing (as if it's some stupid obligation for women to constantly worry about being sexy and as if my definition of "sexy" has to align to everyone elses).
Hey again, everyone. Thanks for the comments, even the ones that felt I had done wrong. I honestly didn't mean to offend and, as many of you pointed out, it is most likely my ignorance on the subject of sexism and feminism that led to me making these mistakes. Still because of the kind of person I am I feel I need to explain myself so I will write another post in response to this one. Again Thanks to everyone for your input and experiences.