thanks for taking time to post this follow up. i'm hoping you found some insightful stuff?

I appreciate your response since it clears up your motivations a little bit.

I think one of the main reasons that some reacted harshly was a result of the statement you made about how you couldn't see any examples of harmful sexism in Western society. While I understand now that you are just trying to learn, you also have to realize that on feministing we get lots and lots of trolls claiming that there's no real sexism anymore and that we're all just complaining about nothing. So when you said that you can't see any day-to-day examples of harmful sexism, it sounded to me as if you were asking us all to defend the very existence of feminism. Feminism is such an important part of so many of our lives, that people may get offended when you come onto a feminist website and ask us to explain why feminism is still relevant.

I'm glad that you're excited to learn about feminism and I hope you got some useful comments and links to help you out!

A rule of thumb that is useful for entering any new internet forum - it's a good idea to hang back and get an idea of what sort of community it is before diving in. You say that you just typed some things in to Google and came here, and I think you would have benefitted from keeping your mouth shut and getting a feel for who hangs out here before talking. I do that in book groups - groups that have nothing to do with things as sensitive as sexism and privileges. Otherwise, I have no idea what sort of topics and tone and level of seriousness those people normally use, and I could make a complete idiot out of myself taking offense to something that the group routinely jokes about.

You're asking to be treated nicely, but you're also viewing your questions and peoples' responses as a single incident. In reality, there is a whole history of privileged people demanding education from unprivileged people. If you just hang back and read this site for a few days, you'll start to see that pretty quickly: Jos's newest post on the main page today is just one example of how often this happens and how people feel about it. So while you're viewing this as, "Hey, man, you should just be nice, niceness goes a long way," we're viewing it as, "ANOTHER one. Oh God. Seriously? Again? Can't these people read?"

And that's all I can really recommend - read. You say you don't want journal articles and essays, but taking even a half hour to read over the posts here on Feministing should demonstrate that the sort of voices you're looking for are already here for you to dive into and educate yourself with. We have a lot to say, so take advantage of it and listen.

If you're interested, there are actually lots of books out there that do exactly what you're looking for- blend personal experience with academic analysis. It's a fairly common format for contemporary feminist writings. A good place to start would be the book Listen Up! by Barbara Findlen.

Because of the issues that other commenters have already discussed with you, and because you're new to a lot of the subject matter, reading this kind of book might be a good place to start. It's personal stories on the authors' own terms, rather than at the request of someone else.

"So when you said that you can't see any day-to-day examples of harmful sexism, it sounded to me as if you were asking us all to defend the very existence of feminism. Feminism is such an important part of so many of our lives, that people may get offended when you come onto a feminist website and ask us to explain why feminism is still relevant."

This.

That is exactly what his last post felt like and I think that's what so many people got upset. I understand the OP is trying to learn but when you're new to a movement and admit that you're ignorant to a lot of the facts and feelings surrounding it you have to realize you're going to step on some toes and offend some people. And when that happens some of those people are not going to be so kind to you. It isn't our job to walk on eggshells for in in OUR space. I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm just stating the truth of the matter. So when you (the OP) says something like "some of those comments bordered on hurtful," instead of asking us to be more kind, maybe you should think about the fact that you came into our space and what you have done to upset so many of us in such a way. Research privilege. Research "check your tone" arguments. I think it would be very helpful to you in the future.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions, and don't let anyone try to tell you otherwise.

I have a question for you, after we gave examples of sexism, do you see them now or are they still invisible? Take for example street harassment. I don't think many of my male friends (who don't engage in it themselves) would know it was a problem because we don't get harassed when walking with a man.

Also regarding the hostile comments, I find with any forum (and I believe that feministing commentators are a thousand times more open and friendly than a lot of other blogs/comments out there - see youtube or digg.com for example), there will always be those who jump down your throat. You could make a post saying "I love fluffy little puppies" and someone will find something wrong with it.

But I believe this to be a good thing because it makes me challenge myself and my beliefs. The only time I get really frustrated is when someone totally misrepresents what I have said and claims I have said something I haven't and then argues against the non-existent comment!

Thanks for clearing up your motivations, but you still seriously need to check your privilege. I recommend shutting up and listening for a good long time. This isn't your safe space, so although you are welcome to contribute, you need to keep that fact in mind.

If you haven't already, I highly recommend checking out the feminism 101 blog, the Racialicious blog, and Shapely Prose (KateHarding.net). And don't forget that not only is it not our job to educate you, but if we DO decide to take the time out of our lives to educate yet another ignorant person, we are under no obligation to be polite. Insisting that we tone down the message and be polite is just another example of privileged people derailing and dismissing us, and we get that shit all the time.

Thanks for your clarification. I agree with most of the responses here -- as many of us said in response to your original post, please go through and read the blog to get more individual stories.

And please take our concerns about not "taking up space" and "checking your privilege" seriously. I think the fact that you decided to make a whole new post about this, rather than reply to the original thread to keep that conversation going, shows that you still don't quite understand etiquette on this forum.

I do appreciate you trying to educate yourself, and I know that it's easy to make mistakes in the initial phase. Don't let the angry comments hurt your feelings -- let them spur you to learn about what makes many women so angry, and to be part of the solution rather than the problem!

your post does come off as entitled, privileged and mean. I get that you probably are completely ignorant of that.
You have a long way to go in your learning process and a lot of privileged conditioning to get over.
You are asking use to entertain you by exploiting our stories, our experiences with the sexism we encounter every single day- for you, on a site that is thousands of entries loaded with the answer to your question.
STEP 1
Learn to listen
STEP 2
shut up and listen
STEP 3
listen and learn

get it?

abbencoy,

As the responses to your posts show, not all feminists are the same. Some have reacted negatively to your request while others have been glad to use the opportunity to send their ideas off beyond those who already know about feminism. Some have been telling you, in so many words, that if you submit to this education, it's going to be long, tough, and hard on you, and some believe that it ought to be like that because they think you've demonstrated that you deserve it. Personally, I haven't seen anything in your posts that excuses the pile-on you've gotten from some on this board.

Some have elaborated beautifully on all the wicked things that have said about feminists (they're angry, mean, etc.) that they believe they saw when you asked for politeness. But some of the things that have been said are below the belt or misrepresentations of what you actually wrote, which is an unfair thing because it makes conversation very difficult, and I wouldn't blame you if you never came back. Again, some want to make it very hard on you because you've expressed your willingness to learn, but they have a counterproductive way of "teaching." It can be very hard for some feminists to engage in ways that they feel compromises their feminist values - like respectfully talking to a man who has, without knowing it, offended them in some way. Their values take no prisoners, which is fine, but we aren't hypocrites if our values say one thing and the immediate needs of society - like the need to educate and to appeal to those people who are complicit in sexism - say another. That's a real rhetorical gap there that some feminists can't bridge because it would go against their principles. In this sense, *being* a feminist is often more important than going out there and risking feminism.

And I think someone can be verbally ridiculed only so much in a language or with a discourse that they don't understand before they want to call it quits and decide that feminists really are mean. There's a balance that needs sought between personal responsibility to learn about something and a willingness to teach - it has been said by bell hooks and others that feminists need to take some responsibility for the messages that are out there about feminism. To add to that, feminists are passionate about feminism, and they expect everyone else to be drawn to it, too, because it's "right" or it's a novel thing - but they take for granted that all the great things about feminism are visible to people who don't know about it. They think feminism is self-evident, and somehow it's your fault for not seeing that (despite the fact that many women came to feminism only after denial or difficulty seeing the use).

With that said, I don't know that feminists are always interested in reaching out or teaching. People claiming that Feministing is "our space" give away that they think there are people besides them who either aren't welcome or need to prove themselves if they "enter." All this sounds like a lot of dangerous possessiveness over a space that could benefit from many different voices, concerns, and questions. I'm surprised that in a space claiming to be feminist, there are so many people who want to plant there flag and say, "This space is mine," an odd response for a group that isn't a dominant group, that actually needs a lot more support than it actually has. For those who think that it's a waste of time having to "educate someone," I have to wonder, what are your goals? Is it just to "be feminist"? We do nothing to eliminate sexism if we don't engage where we can. If it isn't worth the engagement, then we ought to pass rather than spend time using someone as an available target for everything we find wrong with male privilege.

By the way, where is the line drawn for who can enter and speak and with what privileges? If we're posting on the internet after the libraries are closed, it means we have a computer at home, a nice privilege. And it means we know how to use it and to read and communicate with the symbols on the page - that's also a privilege potentially related to other privileges - like class or race or ability. Something feminists don't consider sometimes is that man-ness isn't some static, flat-line experience that carries the same amount of inherited privileges - it can be tempered by things like being of color, having a disability, being gay. It doesn't mean that being a man is nullified by these other things, but it should ask us to consider what other experiences people have besides those that are represented as the most important to feminists (that is, gender oppression). On one hand, feminists are willing to consider differences that women have as things that make women's experiences of gender much different - but on the other hand, we are willing to see a man as just a man, and to keep repeating something ambiguous about his privilege though we know nothing else about him.

abbencoy, I suggest taking a women's studies class in college if you can - teachers are required to treat you fairly there because it's for a grade, despite your privilege or whatever else you bring with you. Don't apologize for being interested in feminism. Good luck!

This site is dedicated to blogging about the sexism that comes up in our lives every day! Read it for a week or two and do some personal reflection on it.

I didn't really read too much of your first entry. You just busted on a scene that is supposed to be for like minded feminists and said "hai guyz! i don't believe sexism exists lol!" I don't really know how much farther it went.

So, probably the first step would be training yourself to listen instead of talk.

i still given abbencoy some pretty sincere credit for coming back for more here. i don't care if that makes me seem coddling and whatever. and i don't expect everyone to agree with me (i kinda don't care if they do either). but it's personal. i picture my brother or someone asking these questions and getting shot down and well... most people spend their lives in blinders and i want to give credit where credit is due.

I don't think anyone is obligated to be kind. Civil, yes, but kind? Not necessarily. I go with civil for the first few interactions and bring on the whup ass for repeated douchehattery.

thanks

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