I think one of the biggest and most widely believed myths about heterosexual women is that women and girls don't get rejected. I've heard that only men get rejected, and that's a common bond that they can all bond over (and apparently in this world, only straight cis people exist, but that's another story). And every time I hear that, I think about all the guys I've been rejected by.
Seriously, who made that up? I can think of at least six guys offhand that turned me down in my lifetime. Some of them "just thought of me as a friend," a few already had a girlfriend and I just didn't know it, and I have had the pleasure of falling for a gay guy (not knowing he was gay).
It's not just a guy thing, and I think it's important that we remember that. I'm female. I've been rejected by guys I had feelings for. And you know what? That's fine, because EVERYONE, regardless of gender or preference, gets rejected at some point. That's just life.
I welcome everyone to shout out their own rejection stories, because it's NOT just a straight guys only thing (although straight guys are welcome to post)- it's a dating thing, and it happens to all of us.
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The people who say such are more referring to "cold" approach rejection. As in, not people you were already friends with that you tried to go further with.
Considering that societally, men are far more likely than women to be the one who approaches, that's where this comes from.
I see no reason to really believe that. I've been rejected by ~six of the ~twelve women I've tried to initiate a relationship with, all of whom were either acquaintances or friends at the time. I've rejected ~zero of the ~zero women who've tried to initiate a relationship with me, all (none) of whom were either acquaintances or friends at the time.
I don't see any reason to believe these numbers are particularly atypical. The gender roles/societal narrative/whatever conspire to discourage women from putting themselves in a point where they can be rejected, and encourage men to. It's not surprising there'd be a disparity. I doubt it's always so absolute, women and men are far more alike than we are different.
Second paragraph took the words right out of my mouth.
"...The gender roles/societal narrative/whatever conspire to discourage women from putting themselves in a point where they can be rejected, and encourage men to..."
At the same time, when a culture tells men to ask women out and women to flirt and wait to be asked out, then couldn't a woman put herself in a point where she can be rejected by following those customs (for example, flirting and having no man ask her out) too?
That's not really the case, because that's not really how flirting works. People flirt for all kinds of reasons, not just to signal availability. Flirting is a step on the road to dating, but so is saying, "Hi, my name is Mina." If you say that to me, and I fail to ask you out, I haven't really rejected you, just as if you flirt with me (or try to and I don't respond, either due to lack of interest or lack of awareness; okay, I'd invariably be the second case, no matter) and I don't ask you out, it isn't really rejection. Maybe I didn't notice, maybe I thought it was "just for fun" flirting, who knows? "Hey, can I take you to dinner?" doesn't really leave room for ambiguity, it's plain accept or reject.
The guys who think this typically have no female friends*-- for them, women exist either as co-workers, as somebody they're romantically/sexually interested in, or not at all. Co-workers aren't likely to share rejection stories, and everybody naturally assumes that nobody would reject the person they're interested in. So, they go based on myths, stereotypes, and popular culture. How many TV shows/movies can you think of that have had an unobtainable-woman plot? How many TV shows/movies have an unobtainable-man plot? The former dwarfs the latter.
*I've long-maintained that dating somebody who has no friends of your gender is asking for trouble-- what does it say about a straight guy who has ZERO female friends? Similarly, I'm always a bit wary of women who have no guy friends whatsoever. Of course, as a straight guy whose friends are 90% female, I would say that
Oh I totally agree with you there. I tend to find people who say, "Men and women can't be just friends" tend to have pretty traditional, separate-sphere sort of views.
I have a lot of thoughts running through my head about people who will only be friends with one sex or the other, but they're probably best saved for their own post! But being good friends with both men and women has definitely shown me both groups being hurt over being rejected by someone they wanted to date, so you're probably onto something here.
"what does it say about a straight guy who has ZERO female friends?"
Often, the things you would think it says. Occasionally, that they have jobs and hobbies that are traditionally male and they don't get to meet women on a day to day basis.
I have this problem except it involves not being able to meet other women =( It bums me out.
Exactly! If a guy went to all male Catholic schools, enlisted in the military right out of high school and then came home and got a job in the construction industry, (and I know LOTS of guys like that) there is a very high chance that that man has never been in a situation where he would have a chance to make female friends.
Guys like that would tend to have an all male circle of friends, and would tend to relate to non family member women in a dating/relationship/marriage context only, simply because of his life circumstances.
Six in your lifetime? Amateur.
I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I get rejected all the damn time. I've been rejected more than 6 times in the past month. Granted, I've been looking a lot harder in the past month than I have in the past couple years, but still... It's offensive and somewhat hurtful when I hear people (that is, men) say that women do all the choosing and don't have to face rejection. Thanks for dismissing my experience, and thanks even more for making me question what is wrong with me that I do get rejected.
With the standard model, I don't get to choose until somebody chooses me, first. That doesn't happen very often. When I break from the standard model and make the first move, I get rejected ridiculously often. I am sure that any woman who doesn't fit the standard model of attractiveness, as I do not, has plenty of rejection stories.
I think there is a little bit of "nice guy whine" in the "women don't get rejected" refrain. Unattractive women are invisible to most men, and it doesn't even occur to those men that unattractive women deserve to have love and relationships. It sure doesn't occur to them that every woman is attractive in her own way, and sometimes personality can be more important to attraction than looks.
Unattractive women are invisible to most men
This is an unfair statement. For every unattractive woman you find that is invisible to a male, I can find you an unattractive (or low-income) man that is invisible to a female.
You can't really fault someone that doesn't find someone else attractive. If they don't find a person attractive, they aren't obligated to give them the time of the (romantic) day. Not appropriate to assume that they're wrong/bad/stupid/insensitive for not choosing to engage in such things with someone they aren't attracted to.
, and it doesn't even occur to those men that unattractive women deserve to have love and relationships.
I believe they'd call this "entitlement". You aren't entitled to love and relationships, nor is any woman, or any man. That's just the way it is. You might want them, you might crave them, you might even feel you need them. But are you entitled to them? Do you deserve them? No.
It sure doesn't occur to them that every woman is attractive in her own way, and sometimes personality can be more important to attraction than looks.
That's such a cop out. "Attractive in their own way"? I hate the sound of that.
I'm sorry, romantic relationships more often than not have a physical component. A fantastic personality, and being "attractive in their own way" won't overwrite being physical repulsed by a person. It won't undo having no sexual attraction to that person.
I sure hope you aren't implying men need to have relationships with women they aren't attracted to. That's just as bad as suggesting women do it.
Multipass,
A superb debunking of the argument. Professoral!
Multipass, you sound a lot like a NiceGuy(TM).
For the benefit of others, here is what is wrong with your arguments:
@moi: Unattractive women are invisible to most men
@mp: This is an unfair statement. For every unattractive woman you find that is invisible to a male, I can find you an unattractive (or low-income) man that is invisible to a female.
Oh noes, what about the menz! I'm talking about women and why it is not true that women do not get rejected.
@mp: You can't really fault someone that doesn't find someone else attractive. If they don't find a person attractive, they aren't obligated to give them the time of the (romantic) day.
Good thing nobody said they were!
@mp: Not appropriate to assume that they're wrong/bad/stupid/insensitive for not choosing to engage in such things with someone they aren't attracted to.
Nothing is wrong with being attracted to conventionally attractive people. They are, after all, conventionally attractive. What is wrong/bad/stupid/insensitive is believing that one is entitled to a person with a minimum attractiveness level and not allowing for the possibility that said Hot Person might have preferences of their own which exclude Nice Guys and their ilk.
@moi: and it doesn't even occur to those men that unattractive women deserve to have love and relationships.
@mp: I believe they'd call this "entitlement". You aren't entitled to love and relationships, nor is any woman, or any man. That's just the way it is. You might want them, you might crave them, you might even feel you need them. But are you entitled to them? Do you deserve them? No.
Au contraire, mon frere. Love is a basic human experience which every person who wants it deserves. You are confusing a basic human experience with a basic human experience *with a particular individual*. Even you, Multipass, deserve love. You are not entitled to the love of Giselle Bundchen or any other supermodel, but you do deserve love. Notice how I switch between "deserve" and "entitled". They are not interchangeable.
@moi: It sure doesn't occur to them that every woman is attractive in her own way, and sometimes personality can be more important to attraction than looks.
@mp: That's such a cop out. "Attractive in their own way"? I hate the sound of that.
Ladies and gentleman, mesdames et mesieurs, damen und herren, I give you exhibit A, the NiceGuy(TM)'s lack of understanding that there are people who are not conventionally attractive but who are still, inconceivably, attractive nevertheless. Take a good, long look, so you can recognize it the next time you stumble across it.
@mp: I'm sorry, romantic relationships more often than not have a physical component. A fantastic personality, and being "attractive in their own way" won't overwrite being physical repulsed by a person. It won't undo having no sexual attraction to that person.
I sure hope you aren't implying men need to have relationships with women they aren't attracted to. That's just as bad as suggesting women do it.
No, I was implying that men need to stop treating unattractive women as subhuman freaks. If you are still confused, I am sure Vidya and AgnesGrep have a few things to contribute on that front. Not that it is our job to educate your sorry rear end.
I quite love how you class me your silly "nice guy" nonsense, despite, oh, knowing absolutely nothing about me. Upon reading up on your little term, oh, I don't fit it at all. In fact, the most very basic core of it, doesn't even apply to me.
But thanks anyway. I'm sure you'll do better next time.
Moving on:
Good thing nobody said they were!
Sure caught a negative tone in the way you spoke about it.
Au contraire, mon frere. Love is a basic human experience which every person who wants it deserves. You are confusing a basic human experience with a basic human experience *with a particular individual*. Even you, Multipass, deserve love. You are not entitled to the love of Giselle Bundchen or any other supermodel, but you do deserve love. Notice how I switch between "deserve" and "entitled". They are not interchangeable.
First off, no, you don't deserve it. Again, nobody "deserves" to have something just because they want it. You can call it a "basic human experience", but that simply succeeds in devaluing people who don't have an interest as somehow not human enough.
Secondly, not interested.
"Ladies and gentleman, mesdames et mesieurs, damen und herren, I give you exhibit A, the NiceGuy(TM)'s lack of understanding that there are people who are not conventionally attractive but who are still, inconceivably, attractive nevertheless. Take a good, long look, so you can recognize it the next time you stumble across it."
I don't think that's what he meant. "You're attractive in your own way" sounds like (and usually is) a platitude...
"...Love is a basic human experience which every person who wants it deserves. You are confusing a basic human experience with a basic human experience *with a particular individual*. Even you, Multipass, deserve love. You are not entitled to the love of Giselle Bundchen or any other supermodel, but you do deserve love..."
Meanwhile, what about when no one consents to give that love?
For example, I'm a straight woman and no man's ever consented to be my lover. If you think I somehow still deserve romantic love, then which non-consenting man do you think should be my lover?
"I sure hope you aren't implying men need to have relationships with women they aren't attracted to. That's just as bad as suggesting women do it."
My sentiments exactly!
Actually, nobody - male, female, straight, gay, or whatever - "deserves" to have love.
Finding a loving partner is a question of good luck and is something of a privilege, not a right.
As for attractiveness, everybody is entitled to be attracted to whatever human traits they wish - including traits that are purely physical.
I happen to be sexualy attracted to light complexioned African American and/or brownskinned Latina women with big breasts and big butts - and if I choose to select the women I date based on those criteria, it's nobody's business but mine.
And, of course, I don't get to whine and complain when women who fit that demographic choose to reject me based on whatever it is that they find sexually attractive.
That's how the game works - yes, there are SERIOUS problems with it and if it was up to me I would have male female heterosexual relationships be run a very different way - but it's not up to me.
So, if a man doesn't find you physically attractive - and your personality doesn't overcome that fact - that's just how it is.
You can't force a person to be sexually attracted to you.
Also, yes, if you make the first move you will get rejected - A LOT - this is a fact that every man knows because, in our society, men are expected to make the first move and this often involves a lot of "cold call" approaches to women - which pretty much guarantees that you will get shot down a lot.
I have friends who believe in the "law of averages" approach - that is, they will make a move on every woman who they find attractive, no matter where or when they encounter her - on the street, on the subway, in the waiting room at the doctor's office.
They assume that 99 out of 100 of these women won't be interested - so they just have to make passes at a whole hell of a lot of women to make this method work.
It's a lot like "cold call" sales - make 1,000 calls to get one sale!
The myth of women not being rejected by men is also representative of the marginalization of women who are not young, thin, and conventionally attractive from cultural narratives of womanhood.
As a fat woman, I have never NOT been rejected by a man in whom I hinted some interest (or, more commonly, by those men who assumed some interest where none was present). In fact, I now make it a practice to do my best to disguise anything when interacting with men which might imply to them romantic interest, as it otherwise can result in my being socially shunned, the man in question being harassed by friends/family/coworkers, and even abuse directed toward me.
Oh God, I have so been there.
THIS.
I have a similar coping mechanism. When I find myself attracted to someone I immediately start the avoidance and get over it process. I NEVER let anyone know of my attraction. Not even a hint. I know the rejection is inevitable so I just move on.
I can't stand it when men say that it is so easy for ANY woman to get laid or get a date.
Why? Why is the rejection inevitable?
maybe the guy is waiting for a positive sign from you. If he is shy, maybe he thinks the same way - what a pity!
Life experience tells me that rejection is inevitable. It's been brought up in threads before. There are women who never get asked out, hit on etc... And it's not just women, obviously. There are many people who go through life alone.
"What a pity!" Oh, please. That's kind of insulting.
Sorry if the 'pity' part shook you. It wasn't my intention.
Why do you automatically assume you'll be rejected?
Doesn't your method pretty much GUARANTEE you'll be rejected?
As others have been saying, this false idea that women don't get rejected ignores the fact that straight men will often only consider the women they find conventionally attractive. And those same women are less likely to be rejected when they make the first move. But assuming men are the only ones who do the asking, what about the women they don't ask? Being ignored is like a form of rejection.
And I agree that the old saying that men and women can't be friends is not only stupid and untrue, it's also heteronormative in assuming that all men and women are straight and therefore can't be friends, ignoring the LGBT community entirely.
it's also heteronormative
So, so true! I used that argument years ago with my one ex who was very "men and women can't be friends" - he was throwing a fit over me going out to dinner with my male best friend. He used the rather idiotic line, "It's not that I don't trust you, it's HIM I don't trust." I asked him why he didn't care when I had dinner with my female best friend, and I pointed out that if I were bisexual, his perspective meant I wasn't allowed to have any friends at all, and what about being friends with lesbians? 'Cause clearly everyone who might be attracted to me will be, and they doesn't have boundaries or common courtesy to not put the moves on me, right?
To believe men do not face "indirect" rejection is a false believe, too.
If you ask out and get rejected, you might notice that no one else seems to be interested in you.
I mean what is the logic behind that. Women get rejected because they don´t get asked? Men don´t get asked, too and receive the direct rejection as well.
Disclaimer, I was talking about averages here. What general Joe and average Jane are doing. Of course there are always exceptions.
Others have already articulated my thoughts on the disturbing trend of using the male experience as the baseline by which everyone else is measured: Male rejection is "the worst" and male orgasm is the score/game-over, to give a few examples.
How would it feel if I argued that rejection from an absolute stranger should have less sting than someone you've pined over for a year? Pick-up theory is all about women being emotional and men being logical. Fear of rejection from a complete stranger in a cold approach scenario---in which you have invested relatively little time and energy---sounds pretty damned emotional to me, folks. But you know what? It's OK. I believe you that this is deeply painful.
But don't tell me that putting myself out there---in essence spending the time and money to conform to be more conventionally attractive and taking the social risks of being a female in a public space and getting absolutely nothing back (or being harassed)---is a lesser rejection.
As a woman of color who grew up in a white community (I'll spare you the sad details) don't tell me I have it easy because there is always some guy around desperate enough to give me a mercy fuck if things ever come to that. Do you know how insulting that sounds?
Despite a dismal youth, I still got up the courage to ask men out as an adult. I think I got 1 date out of it in total.
People who think role reversal can help, you should try it. But do you have the stomach for it? If you want people to ask you out, then YOU need to make yourself look friendly. YOU must learn the body language that looks inviting. YOU must dress for success and be impeccable. And be ready to be ignored by most of the people you sort have interest in and approached by people you have no interest in. Maybe 1 in 10 (over a lifetime) of the people who approach will be mildly intriguing.
I can guarantee that you'll still be bummed about the whole superficiality of this ritual. You'll be surprised how much money it costs "to be passive." Find out how it feels to be designated a gatekeeper--a role you never asked for.
Can we do better than this? I think so. But there need to be a lot of looking inward on this.
I LOVE being the pursuer. Also it is worth noting that women pursue men all the time, even if they don't finally ask that question (wanna go out?). They make eye contact, flirt, hint, etc. I have been the pursuer in almost all of my relationships. Stereotypes about women pursuing making a man value her less are completely false, in my experience.
Also, as EmberNight said, when a man ignores her, acts like she doesn't exist, and/or doesn't ask her out (and asks out another woman in the vicinity), or even obviously mocks her appearance to his friends, that IS a kind of rejection. So women, because they "can't" typically be outright "pursuers," deal in more subtle, but still real and painful, exchanges.
Also, women who are not seen as conventionally attractive and get rejected/looked past all the time- what? just don't exist?!!! This seems very blind and in line with a cultural narrative in which attractive women are the only actual women. I've seen my male friends reject attractive, but not "perfect" women all the time, often not even giving them basic human respect. A lot of these men complain about rejection all the time. It's a ridiculous, hypocritical, blind double standard.
Plus there is the reality that even IF a man won't reject sleeping with you, he may reject a relationship (these are stereotypes). Why is romantic rejection seen as less painful than sexual rejection?
I have of-course been rejected, romantically, sexually, in all of the previous ways as well as the more direct way we are talking about, and I am what society considers beautiful. I've also had romantic successes. It's a pretty human thing we are talking about.
To me it seems to be, and this doesn't make things any better- gender doesn't predict romantic success as much as 1- how respectfully and charismatically you deal with potential romantic partners, and 2- how "attractive" you are. Objectification sucks regardless. And even if you are the cat's meow with both of these things, there's still something about chemistry, and what people intellectually and emotionally connect on, and the unpredictability of the heart and you know, other people having preferences and stuff, that means you'll STILL be rejected, and often.
Also it is worth noting that women pursue men all the time, even if they don't finally ask that question (wanna go out?). They make eye contact, flirt, hint, etc.
Ambiguous hints and flirts and hoping someone notices your obscure body language are not pursuit.
Just saying. Hinting is obnoxious, because then usually the hint-er becomes angry at the hint-ed if they don't notice.
And if it happens all the time, not once in 30 years have I seen it personally.
"Ambiguous hints and flirts and hoping someone notices your obscure body language are not pursuit."
Oh yes it is! You're telling me that in your world, people don't flirt? Flirting is the whole prep before the final question, and where a lot of the risk-taking work comes in.
"Just saying. Hinting is obnoxious, because then usually the hint-er becomes angry at the hint-ed if they don't notice."
That sounds like grade-school behavior rather than adult interaction. That said I trust your experience. I am curious- How do you know these women became angry? Did they tell you and how did they tell you?
"And if it happens all the time, not once in 30 years have I seen it personally."
Again I find this pretty much impossible to believe. It's everywhere. And again, as I said, I've been the pursuer in almost every one of my sexual interactions and relationships. I benefit because I am attractive, but the men and women I've pursued have been all over the board as far as typical standards of beauty. If I weren't in a relationship, I'd be out pursuing partners right now. I enjoy it. And yes, as I said, I've been rejected for fairer / cooler / better mates in the bar scene and in established relationships.
Never seen it once, sorry. Find it as hard to believe as you like, but that's how it goes.
To flirt is not so much pursuing one's "quarry" as it is inviting them to pursue you.
The level of rejection when someone fails to take your bait, as it were, is not the same as flat-out asking and getting a flat-out "No." You can keep the flirting going indefinitely without ever risking actual rejection. Your flirting would have to rise to the level of smarminess to elicit a "No" from the other person unprompted.
And if they don't rise to your unspoken invitation, maybe it's just that they are clueless, or laboring under low self-esteem and the resulting misassessment of their attractiveness (raises hand sheepishly) or any number of other things having everything to do with the other person and nothing to do with one's own sense of attractiveness. Asking and getting shot down in flames doesn't carry that benefit. They didn't just fail to take you up on your hints, they actively turned you down.
Subtly flirting with a man is NOT "persuit".
It's you inviting him to be the aggressive one who makes the first move.
So, based on your account, you have never actually persued anybody - all you did was to drop subtle hints to a man to tell him that you wanted him to persue you.
And for the men who didn't take the hint - either because they couldn't read your subtle signals or they just weren't interested - none of them rejected you.
Rejection is when you directly - using words that clearly and unambiguously communicate your interest in dating - and the other person turns you down.
That's rejection - not somebody failing to guess what you meant when you batted your eyelashes.
And by that definition, based on your account, you have never actually been rejected in the conventional meaning of the term.
"Also it is worth noting that women pursue men all the time, even if they don't finally ask that question (wanna go out?). They make eye contact, flirt, hint, etc."
Sorry, Lexicon but none of that is "persuing men"
Persuing is directly making contact with a person - directly speaking to them or emailing them.
Flirting, hinting, batting eyelashes ect are NOT "persuit" - they are a passive (and, quite frankly, somewhat passive aggressive) way of a woman getting a man to persue her.
Of course, if a man can't read those subtle hints (and, believe it or not, a LOT of men are totally clueless to those subtle hints) it's not "rejection".
It only counts as persuit if you directly verbally make the first move - that is, directly asking a man out on a date.
It only counts as persuit if you directly verbally make the first move - that is, directly asking a man out on a date.
Who died and made you king of dating, lol! Look I get what you are saying. But I've also heard plenty of guys say that they don't like to be pursued "too much". Of course they never tell you what "too much" means, which is probably why a lot of women figure the coy stuff is worth a shot.
Or let me put it another way. If a woman wants to be considered as a potential romantic interest and not a "Pump and Dump" then she needs to be subtle, so I've been told.
And you yourself admit that some men tackle the approach as a numbers game. I happen to know that some men approach women whom they have no intention of ever calling. They do this just for practice or to see how many numbers they could snag to feel good. But I'll bet you think that doesn't count as "real rejection" when he never calls her back, right?
The insistence on classifying what counts as pursuit and what counts as rejection is counterproductive here, folks. We all agree here that the current system, sucks, right?
"...Also, women who are not seen as conventionally attractive and get rejected/looked past all the time- what? just don't exist?!!! This seems very blind and in line with a cultural narrative in which attractive women are the only actual women..."
Yeah, the idea seems to be that, in a society where children are raised to believe that it's OK for a man to ask a woman out and not vice-versa:
a) a 50-year-old married man who, back when he was single, had been rejected half the times he asked a woman out on a date has been rejected a lot
b) a 50-year-old virgin woman who's never been asked out on a date in the first place has somehow not been rejected at all and "can get sex any time she wants" because she's a woman
WTF?
Groan (actually, a light-hearted one, because many of the posts reject the OP).
But even so.
In general, women have no idea how difficult it is for many (most?) men to get a date. Even assuming the same proportion of attractive men and women (by any definition of attractiveness), it is still expected that the man will initiate contact and any further enterprise (a coffee? lunch? dinner maybe?).
Despite the cries I hear, I cannot believe that women have asked as many men for a date as many times as they have been asked. Maybe some of you have, but on the whole, men do the asking. That's just the way it is. I wish it wasn't - I'm pretty shy and have many female friends - but I have to live n the world as it is, not in a fantasy version.
(And yes, many women regard me as a big brother. To my utter dismay.)
I don't know. I mean, for the last few years, I've been doing all the asking. I haven't been turned down for the specific things I've asked for ("Would you like to get lunch this weekend?" "I'd like to see you again after meeting you at the wedding, would you like to have dinner together?") but then, after the start of what I think is something great since we're getting along really well for a few weeks, I find out that they didn't think they were dates, and they're not interested in being romantically linked to me. HA! Joke's on me. And then I even heard one of them complaining that women aren't interested in him, which led to me wondering if I'm a woman or chopped liver.
I think we all perceive things very differently, which is a roadblock for figuring out who really does the asking and rejecting more often.
I believe women send a lot of nonverbal cues to men they are interested in. Men should learn to understand those properly, so if the men make sexual advances, they don't make excuses. I also believe women create opportunities to be with men they are attracted to (e.g. having/attending parties), as well as explicitly asking to spend time with them alone. And that's where you seem to be in situations where men did not consider your time together "dates."
It seems a safe place to ask. How did you indicate to these men that it was indeed a date, or that you were actually attracted to him as opposed to merely being friendly, and wanting to spend time with him with the possibility of something more?
"I believe women send a lot of nonverbal cues to men they are interested in. Men should learn to understand those properly, so if the men make sexual advances, they don't make excuses"
Perhaps women should change their communications style to a more direct stereotypically male style.
I always prefer bluntness to subtlety and I absolutely HATE hints!
Say what you mean and mean what you say - don't make me guess what you mean!
And please keep it verbal - I hate having to decipher body language!
Maybe I'm biased by having spent the better part of the last 20 years in almost entirely male working environments (machine shops as a young man in the late 1980's and construction sites from the early 1990's to now) in the company of very blunt spoken utterly unsubtle men, but there is a lot to be said for being direct and clear with your message.
Oh man, when you're on, like, your third date and the person you're with starts complaining about how they can't find love and how no one will date them and why won't women talk to me, Nepenthe?
I'm gonna stop before I burst a blood vessel.
Regarding numbers, some people have been rejected 1 time and they don't get over it for years. Are you trying to tell me their experience doesn't count because they only fell in love once?
I hear men often say that they'd love to be asked out. Ok then. What personally have you done above and beyond to make yourself more attractive for someone to consider asking you out? And if you didn't get asked out, then maybe you were simply passed over---which is rejection, which hurts, which is what we are trying to say.
Since you seem to like numbers and proportions, "how hard it is for men vs women" has little meaning in a culture where something like 80% of men and women reproduce. It's not the greatest number to look at because many people don't want or can't have kids, but it tells me that objectively it's unlikely that it's actually harder for either gender in terms of rejection.
And when I hear people's stories I'm hearing a lot of pain from both sides, again, which supports the idea that suckiness is spread out pretty evenly. Which leads me and recent posters to ask then why all the hate toward women on this?
Spike,
"Are you trying to tell me their experience doesn't count because they only fell in love once?" Good heavens, no.
"What personally have you done above and beyond to make yourself more attractive for someone to consider asking you out?" OK, since you ask. I don't brag, I dress smart, I own my home, I don't tell blue jokes (in the company of women), I don't bring up politics, I go to the opera, I don't harass, I don't get angry at anything, I polish my shoes regularly, I tell a few clean jokes, I don't smoke, I don't drink, I run and work out, I had my teeth staightened, I own more than a dozen pairs of spectacles, I have a more than decent income, I am widely read, I speak three languages, I don't undermine my colleagues. That's about it, I guess - superficials et al.
"And if you didn't get asked out, then maybe you were simply passed over---which is rejection, which hurts, which is what we are trying to say." No, not necessarily. Women over here, in Switzerland, don't ask men out. Simple as that.
"Since you seem to like numbers and proportions, "how hard it is for men vs women" has little meaning in a culture where something like 80% of men and women reproduce." The figure you quote is probably correct, but the one we are interested in the following: how many of the women asked their man out first, and how many were the men to do the initial asking. I'd say in 90% of cases, the couples were brought together by the man.
"And when I hear people's stories I'm hearing a lot of pain from both sides, again, which supports the idea that suckiness is spread out pretty evenly." Fair comment. Probably true.
"Which leads me and recent posters to ask then why all the hate toward women on this?" That's a little harsh, I think. The comments were more along the lines of '... men are actively rejected more often than women, simply because they ask more often...'
The figure you quote is probably correct, but the one we are interested in the following: how many of the women asked their man out first, and how many were the men to do the initial asking. I'd say in 90% of cases, the couples were brought together by the man.
Smiley,
No. YOU are interested in how many men do the asking because YOU are convinced that this is the harder position to be in. Yet you have no objective basis by which to make this comparison.
Furthermore you seem to miss the fact that after the initial asking out, there is still plenty of room for rejection and hurt.
You say that in Switzerland women don't ask men out. And I had a conversation with a young Swiss gal online who was saying that she's NEVER been asked out and I told her to try having a little house party with her colleagues. Too American of me?
When I was in Switzerland it honestly looked like the worst of both worlds in terms of meeting people, at least compared to the US and Italy ---with those countries being on sort of extreme ends of the spectrum. And what's up with your coffee???
Anyway, why is it so hard to imagine that many women AND men are simply overlooked? That's all this post is about, really. You seem to also realize that these are mostly cultural scripts, since Swiss folk don't act the same as Italians who don't act like the Brits who kinda actually do act like the Americans (at least with all of the booze and courtship), lol!
Spike,
(Maybe you should give me your friend's 'phone number?)
Nope. My personal conviction is irrelevant - the figures do seem to suggest that men pursue.
Yes, Switzerland is probably less go-getting than the USA. It's the world I live in though! And the coffee is fine - certainly better than the coffee I experienced in NY City - you know, the stuff that is on the boil all day long, in a big, round, glass pot.
Don't get me started on the British courtship rituals - I find the whole booze business utterly depressing and rather embarrassing.
And the coffee is fine - certainly better than the coffee I experienced in NY City - you know, the stuff that is on the boil all day long, in a big, round, glass pot.
Ha Ha, Touché!
Nope. My personal conviction is irrelevant - the figures do seem to suggest that men pursue.
But that's not even the argument here. Read the original post. The post is not about who pursues whom. It is about rejection.
It's natural that men and women are going to focus on the rejection they've experienced the most. But that doesn't necessarily make anyone's plight better or worse.
"...'And if you didn't get asked out, then maybe you were simply passed over---which is rejection, which hurts, which is what we are trying to say.' No, not necessarily. Women over here, in Switzerland, don't ask men out. Simple as that..."
Just curious now, suppose a woman in Switzerland is attracted to men and would like to date, and is waiting for a man to ask her out on her first date, and never asks a man out (since "Women over here, in Switzerland, don't ask men out"). How many years would she have to wait before you'd say that she's been rejected? 1 year? 5 years? 10? 20?
"I hear men often say that they'd love to be asked out. Ok then. What personally have you done above and beyond to make yourself more attractive for someone to consider asking you out? And if you didn't get asked out, then maybe you were simply passed over---which is rejection, which hurts, which is what we are trying to say."
Ask women that. Then we'll get all society has done to tell women what they "can" do to be attractive, how they MUST make themselves attractive. And I agree. Society, including fellow women, put a burden on women to be attractive to men, from the inside out.
It is nowhere near as bad for men, but there are expectations on men to be attractive to women as well. Why does a man have to be "above and beyond" for someone to even CONSIDER asking them out? Why doesn't our society simply allow people to freely ask each other out? (That's a rhetorical question, you don't need to tell me about what people think of "aggressive" women.)
A male, I agree 100%. Frankly nobody should have to go above and beyond. I asked the question because a lot of folks discount the mental and physical resources that women invest in looking attractive. Even if YOU don't think we look attractive, we've been obsessing about it since puberty. And when our so-called investment yields few results, it feels like a failure.
And going back to what Smiley said, things like education and speaking languages and income are all valued tangible things that are useful in life. These are not "above and beyond" things you do to attract others. These are things you do for yourself. I did all of those things and it didn't have any impact on making myself more attractive.
I reckon it's because most men say that want young, attractive women first and foremost. I get it. I get it. But honestly, how much control do we have over that? I have no control over my age. I can live a clean lifestyle, but that doesn't change the fact that plenty of men would rather go for, say, a thin smoker who fits their conventional ideal.
What's next? Well, despite all of the doomsday talk, I think my generation (I'm in the late 30's) was the last to get the short end of the stick here. It seems like the younger set coming along is allowing more freedom for role reversals. And I think the internet has helped as well. Beauty standards are slowly, slowly, slowly widening as well.
I hear men often say that they'd love to be asked out.
What they mean by that is "I'd love to be asked out by all the hot women who I want to date." What they rarely understand is that by being an askee, they will be subject to being asked out by women who they don't find attractive, women who are too old for them (ahem. just got rejected by an extremely cute younger dude.), women who wear granny panties, or women who are in some way, shape, or form not who they had in mind to be asking them out. The askee position certainly has its sucky side.
That's really not the case at all, and seems to be just badmouthing men for it's own sake. The issue at hand is discussed here better than I could ever do it justice.
The bigger problem, I think, is that a woman approaching a man for a relationship doesn't come planned for in either of our gender roles, and people (on both ends) simply don't expect it, and don't know how to deal with it. I could say "I wish women would approach me.", but I know perfectly well they'd never be able to convince me they were serious, so there'd be no point. The latter point takes more pondering on the subject than most men've likely done, howe'er.
Maybe you should listen to women's experience with approaching men before you tell me what is and isn't true about it. I might be prone to excessive language for the sake of hyperbolic emphasis, but it is completely true that men do not realize that being approached is not about having a steady stream of desirable partners kindly and politely whispering seductive phrases in one's ear.
I'm not sure why I should afford women's guesses of how men feel the status of God's honest truth and discount men's own renditions of their thoughts and feelings, but feel free to make a convincing argument as to why if you like.
I'm not sure what to do with completely true that men do not realize that being approached is not about having a steady stream of desirable partners kindly and politely whispering seductive phrases in one's ear. since it isn't even remotely true. Perhaps this falls back to the "you, as a woman, know what men think and feel, whereas I, as a man, have absolutely no experience with the subject" argument you keep advancing that I remain unconvinced of.
There's an entirely worthwhile discussion on the gap between womens' impression of how often they approach men (based on this discussion, it seems to be "frequently") and mens' impression of how often they're approached by women (generally, it seems to be "not once in my life"). It should be clear that it revolves around women being told not to be too forward (lest they be perceived as slutty or whatnot), and men completely failing to anticipate this as a possibility, and being unable to reconcile such an event with their usual worldview, and thus being unable to see.
I've never been approached by a woman for a non-platonic relationship in my life, or received unsolicited signals of interest. This is a pretty common thing for men to say, and to across the board discount our experiences with a "they're just misrepresenting what happens and neglecting all the women throwing themselves at these boys" isn't exactly convincing or helpful, nor is it a good lead up to "listen to me and don't discount my experiences."
Third parties, observing interactions have later claimed that women have signaled interest in me, and while I'm inclined to believe this is just a joke at my expense, certainly (in at least two cases I can think of) the women in question were pretty attractive. Doesn't affect my impression of whether they're signaling interest (though it'd probably affect whether I reciprocate).
Is it really so hard to believe it's very common for men to have never had a woman indicate interest in them? I have no doubt a show of hands would get a good response from those who'd say the number of women who've approached them is identically zero. Not "not often enough", not "not attractive enough".
I guess since your argument begins with discounting the experiences of men, including myself, it's not surprising I find it unconvincing.
I suspect this site, on this topic, will have a particularly bad case of the anecdotal evidence not matching the demographic. The idea that men should do the approaching, and women wait to be approached -- which is what underlies much of this about men facing all the rejection -- doesn't strike me as particularly feminist.
Smiley, thank you for bringing up the "friend zone" - when you are interested in a woman, but she puts you on the "Do Not Date" list and views you as a "buddy" who she could never imagine being sexual with.
And again, I'd reiterate your main point, that, in our society, on average, men do a whole hell of a lot more direct approaching of women than women do direct approaching of men and consequently we get rejected a whole hell of a lot more on the average.
There are individual exceptions - but we're not talking about them here, just the average experience.
And the average is, heterosexual men get rejected by heterosexual women a lot more often than heterosexual women get rejected by heterosexual men.
And, on the whole, it's easier for a straight woman to find a man to date than it is for a straight man to find a woman to date.
Yes, there are individual exceptions - but this is the general rule on average.
I've been rejected and done the rejecting. My roommate (female) got dumped by a guy not that long ago- though we're both past 29 (yargh) and she said this is the first time that's ever happened to her. But, yeah, anyone who gets out of the house a little will see that even if guys get it a majority of the time, that's only because of the numbers game involved.
I do want to add this, though: I've met a few guys who have said, "Damn, if only I could be a woman for a few days." I've had to point out, "You mean a hot one, right?" And they're like, well, yeah, yeah. I don't know how many of you have experienced something similar- I'd assume a pretty good percentage. I always found it somewhere between amusing and pathetic that they never really grasped the difference between "being a woman" and "having that one little aspect of power attributed to womanhood".
Sheesh, by that logic I wish I could be a woman for a few days. And I was born one, I'm just unattractive.
okay I'll tell you my rejection story, now I have had a number of these but the one I will always remember is this one.
I had been best friends with a guy for three years when I realized one day that there was more than just friendship there on my end. We both had flirted with each other before, but just on a joking friend level to freak other people out kind of thing. Last summer I finally decide that I'm going to get the nerve to tell him that I like him. I decided that the perfect time would be on my birthday, since we were going to be together the entire day and I knew there would be plenty of oppertunities for me to decide the perfect time to tell him. We were going out to lunch before doing anything else and my group of friends all started talking and laughing chatting about random things and the subject of social networking came up. We were talking about who had what and who wrote what on those sites and why. Well this guy has a myspace and since I have never had a myspace I get left out of the loop about what goes on there. Well it turns out the week before this guy had come out of the closet on myspace. So I find out that my best friend who I happen to have a crush on and was going to tell on that day is gay. I was hurt, mostly because I think I took his care and concern and mistook it for the signals that he liked me back. But I couldn't show it because A) there is no way I was going to go throught the embarrassment of telling the guy who I just found out was gay and B) I totally support him and know that when something like that happens you have to be completely understanding and let them know that you are truly okay with them being who they are. So not only did I get rejected by the only guy who has ever treated me with decency and respect but I had to happy for him and couldn't show how upset I was and how mad I was at myself.
I consider this one of the worst things I've done to a woman. When I was a 12th grader, I had a nice relationship with a younger girl who'd approached me at art workshop the previous summer. She was pretty. She was cute. She made nice conversation. She was funny and well mannered. My mother, who was a science teacher at our school, approved of the girl, and said she was very smart.
I asked her on a date. I picked her up at her home, and met her mom, who apparently approved of me (they were caucasian, I am Asian). We then watched Top Gun. During the love scene, she rested her head on my shoulder and kept it there.
After the movie, on the way home, I stopped on the beach and we went for a little walk. We sat on a driftwood log, and IIRC, out of nowhere I asked if we could stay friends. She appeared to take it well. I dropped her off at home, and she gave me a hug. That was the last time I saw her (and the phone calls stopped), as she moved to California.
WHY would I do this to such a "nice" girl, whom I actually did like, and my mother approved of?
Because I was in love with a classmate of mine who was leader of the cheerleaders and one of the most popular girls in school. Her boyfriend, since graduated, had been captain of the football team. Her father was a doctor. They were "rich." Yes, this girl in my heart and I were friends since elementary school and saw each other four or five classes a day at school, but nothing more, but I thought I there was a chance of her liking me. I never asked her out, because I thought I had no chance. That was idiotic.
The girl I rejected grew up to be an associate professor in a hard science in the UC system, is professionally recognized, and well published. She has her own family now. If there were an appropriate way, I'd like to apologize to her.
I think it's a good idea that women share their rejection stories, rejection is a two-way street and it's ridiculous to say otherwise. That said, I do agree with those who have pointed out that common dating dynamics make overt initial rejection more likely for guys. Women who don't actively approach men will always be able to tell themselves they weren't actually rejected, he just didn't see their glances, or didn't understand their signals. Subtlety can be an ego-protecting shield. Guys usually don't have that option, since women usually don't approach. My hairdresser just told me in a discussion about this that she considers it unfeminine to approach, and would never respect a guy who wouldn't be able to approach her. Well, maybe all this is different in the enlightened quarters of this planet, but out there the reality tells us it's not - or we likely wouldn't be talking about this issue.
Great post about this on Hugo Schwyzer's site -
http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/02/a-long-post-about-dating-rejection-affirming-and-redirecting/
Oh, and btw,
I've rejected a couple of women in variou stages of courtship. I may actually have implicitly rejected more women than have rejected me, usually because I was too scared to take the relationship to the next level. Of course, sometimes I wonder what could have happened in this or that situation...
I have never been hit on or approached in my entire life. Not once. Because of that, I have attempted to do the pursuing myself. And funny enough, I have been rejected every single time. I have dated horrible, abusive, alcoholic, sexist and racist people, and people I had no attraction to or feelings for, simply because I couldn't get anyone else.
Sorry if that was really sad-sounding. It's just my rejection story to share. Discovering feminism has helped it to be much easier to deal with.
there are men and women out there who are complete jerks. There is someone out there for everyone, you just haven't been lucky enough to meet him or her yet.
Actually, no, there is not someone out there for everyone!
That's Hallmark greeting card bullshit that people tell their lonely friends who can't get a date.
There are some people out there who will never find a suitable partner, for a variety of reasons.
I think it would be a lot kinder to them to tell them that yes, you will probably never find a romantic partner, no that does not mean you are a bad person and yes, you can live a happy life as a single person.
Better to face the honest truth then to spend a miserable life trying to live a lie!
Rejection is a fact of life – and the sooner we learn that, the less we’re likely to get hurt, or feel awkward about asking someone out.
I’ve been doing the dating thing now for more than a decade, I’ve hit and missed, rejected and been rejected, and it’s all a part of life. It sucks when rejection happens, but I can guarantee you that spending time just pining and wondering the “could haves” can suck even more.
My story: a few years ago, I met an amazing, wonderful, intelligent woman at a feminist conference. And although I was dating a lot at the time, I immediately became drawn to her mainly because of her passion for making the world a better place. We began working together on feminist issues and after a few months, I couldn’t help the attraction – more than just a physical one, anymore.
I took my chance, and asked for a “shot that, for so long, [she] and I had been fighting to ensure other people got,” and I got rejected. To be honest, I was shocked and hurt for a while – and at times, it became almost impossible to get out of bed in the morning and taking on the day.
But I eventually got over it, and realized that if I truly cared, then it didn’t matter in which way she was in my life – that in the end, having her in my life as a friend was good enough. She and I have been friends ever since, and although I’ve transferred all the feelings I have for her into something more appropriate for our friendship, I’d still jump at the chance of dating her.
My point: being rejected isn’t the end of the world – and it happens to all of us. It’s what we do after the rejection that matters more.
Oh yes it is! You're telling me that in your world, people don't flirt? Flirting is the whole prep before the final question, and where a lot of the risk-taking work comes in.
Sure, people flirt all the time. But flirting with someone isn't really putting yourself out there; at best, it's a bit of a way to gauge the odds before putting yourself out there. You don't get accepted or rejected by flirting, and you don't know why the other person is (or isn't) responding.
That sounds like grade-school behavior rather than adult interaction. That said I trust your experience. I am curious- How do you know these women became angry? Did they tell you and how did they tell you?
I've certainly heard women express frustration when they try to drop signals at men who fail to notice. I'm not sure quite "anger", but that distinction is pretty fine.
Again I find this pretty much impossible to believe. It's everywhere. And again, as I said, I've been the pursuer in almost every one of my sexual interactions and relationships.
If you're talking about flirting, making eye contact, whatever, as pursuing, then the two of you probably aren't on the same page.
I was rejected for being too small ( I was 115 pounds), short, incredibly tiny waist with a baby face. He said I looked like "jailbait" and because he was attracted to me, he wasn't sure how he felt about that. He was 18 and I was 16.
He'd apologized for that comment when he saw it stung a bit. We had always been friends.
By the time I was an adult and had gained a healthy 10 pounds (not because of him, but because of my new found love for Haagen Daz, my summer job that helped support my habits and the gym) he ended up asking me out. We had been together since that first date, through weight gain and weight loss, hair cuts and hair growth, broke college student to well paid professional. We're now married with a son. But he was the first and last guy I'd ever blatantly approached, even though there had been YEARS inbetween the initial rejection and the initial date.
Not to discount your hurt feelings from the rejection, but if he was 18 and you were 16 at the time, technically speaking you WERE jailbait.
The fact that you looked the part may have stung, but he was in fact attracted to you.
The first time I *told* a guy I wanted to have sex with him, I got rejected. However, it really felt great to give voice to my desire, so I don't regret it at all.
The first guy I ever really *wanted* to have sex with also wasn't interested in me. I always regret not "getting it over with" and just telling him about it.
Even though I still have a hard time asking out guys I like, I try to remember how good it felt to get it off my chest.