http://web.blogads.com/advertise/liberal_blog_advertising_network
Liberal Prose BlogAds Network
Talking to kids about tolerance

I was inspired by Patriarchal demolitionist's post a while back called "Talking to kids about feminism," as well as by something troubling that happened while babysitting last night.

Alright, so this is the same boy that I mentioned in my post, "Handling a little boy who wants to experiment." In case you missed that post, the gist of this preface is that his mom is very, very narrow-minded and instills a lot of intolerance on both of her kids (a boy and a girl), but especially the boy, for whatever reason.

So last night, he mentioned Jesus (he talks about Jesus a lot) and mentioned very non-chalantly, "Did you know that if you don't believe in Jesus you go to hell? It's true!"

So I replied, "Well, some people believe in different gods. Some religions believe that if you don't believe in their god, then you don't go to heaven, so there's a lot of different perspectives on it."

He said, "Then they don't believe in the right god. There's no other god."

I said, "Well there's Allah, and Buddha, and Vishnu --"

He cut me off. "They're definitely gonna go to hell since they don't believe in Jesus."

Obviously there's nothing wrong with him loving Jesus and all that, but you can most likely imagine why it's troubling to hear a 7-year-old say that everyone who isn't Christian is going to hell. What would you guys recommend as a way to talk to him about tolerance of other religions? Bear in mind he is really stubborn and argues like no other, so if I'm going to get through to him at all, I have to have some pretty solid arguments.

Posted by Electrickoolaid - August 09, 2009, at 05:02PM | in Children
0

0 TrackBacks

Listed below are links to blogs that reference this entry: Talking to kids about tolerance.

TrackBack URL for this entry: http://www.feministing.com/cgi-bin/movabletype/mt-tb.fcgi/15403

33 Comments

[0+] Author Profile Page SquaredCircle said:

You are telling the child that there are many different religions that believe different things, and want to tell him that it is okay for people to believe in different religions. Yet, at the same time, you don't want him to believe in his particular religious beliefs.

If you truly believe that it is acceptable to hold different religious beliefs and be tolerant, then let him believe what he wants to be believe, even if you disagree. Then you will show him what tolerance is.

Plus, the kid is seven.

[0+] Author Profile Page Electrickoolaid replied to SquaredCircle :

What? When did I say that I didn't want him to believe in his own religion? Did you miss the part where I said I had no problem with him talking about how much he loves Jesus? Because I have no problem with that. In fact, sometimes the kids come back from Bible camp very excited because they've been told that Jesus loves them and we're all Gods children, and it makes me downright pleased to see them so happy. I apologize if the tone of my post somehow came off to you as being more "I hate Christianity" than "I respect all religions," but the latter was what was intended.

I think it's wonderful that he's passionate about his religion. Good for him, it makes him very happy so I'm happy for him. But he's telling me that everyone who doesn't think exactly like he does is going to hell. He's telling me that people who are different than him are bad people. So I'm supposed to show him tolerance by nodding in agreement and never informing him that there's such a thing as diversity? The first thing he thinks when I do that is going to be "Wow, I guess it IS okay to believe in a different God!"

Yes, the kid is seven. He's not two. He's actually very perceptive and observant for his age, and I'm certain that he's absolutely capable of handling information like "There are many different religions." That's not above his head. He sees diverse people around him every day, so he knows they exist, and between you and I, I'm the one who knows him and has known him since he was three years old, and the one he calls "big sis," so I think it's safe to trust me when I say that I know what information he's capable of understanding.

[0+] Author Profile Page JoanOfArc said:

The kid is seven. You, the babysitter, should not double as a theology debating buddy. Seven year olds are not highly logical and I bet this kid has been feed religion with his breakfast cereal since he was born. I doubt any argument, however logical, is going to make a seven year old suddenly see that his church is teaching intolerance.

To the sort of comment you describe, I would simply counter with a 'well, not everyone agree with that.' And leave it there. The kid will at least know that some people in the world disagree with his religion. When he is older, that seed may grow into greater acceptance of other's beliefs. But it isn't really appropriate for you to try and change the kids beliefs, nor do I think you would have much success.

Joan

[0+] Author Profile Page Electrickoolaid replied to JoanOfArc :

But I'm not trying to change his beliefs. This seems to be what commenters are getting most offended about. Somehow my desire to teach him that the world is diverse equals a desire to tell him that Christianity is wrong. I don't know where that's coming from, but that's absolutely not what I said in my post. I don't want to change what he believes in, but it scares me to see such a young kid use such hateful language. If you knew a little kid whose parents were anti-Semitic and the kid walked around saying "I hate Jews! Jews are evil! Jews go to hell!" would you honestly not be concerned with exposing him to some level of open-mindedness? I know this is an extreme analogy, but realize that this isn't the only comment he's ever made to me that's been extremely troubling and surprisingly hateful.

Also, see my post below about how I'm not just his babysitter and he's not just Some Kid I Babysit.

[0+] Author Profile Page zerk replied to Electrickoolaid :

Perhaps the confusion is mutual? I know personally, i don't equate "You're going to hell" with "I hate you" at all. Certainly some people do feel that those of us supposedly going to hell are worthy of scorn, but many more feel genuine concern for our well being, or are simply resigned to the fact that it is our own personal choice to make and not their business. From all i've seen, the way a sincere belief in Hell plays out in individual Christians is really complex and diverse.

So i guess my question is, has he actually talked about non-Christians in a hateful way? If so i might be tempted to address that directly.

First -- if you are trying to have him admit that there may be other Gods, other valid belief systems, or that there are paths to Salvation other than belief in Christ -- you are trying to change his beliefs. If you are trying to convince him that non-believers in Christ are not necessarily destined for an eternity of damnation -- you are trying to change his beliefs. You are evangelizing to a seven-year-old, apparently against his parents' wishes.

Personally, I don't see the exclusivity of Christian doctrine as intolerant or hateful at all. One can believe that another person is entirely wrong, living in sin, or even Hellbound without hating them. And, the belief that they are worshipping a false god is not necessarily exclusive of tolerance of their right to do so.

In fact, the genuine concern many Christians have for completely anonymous individuals that they believe are bound for Hell seems to me to be the opposite of hate. They care, so they evangelize. It would be hateful for them to keep to themselves the "truth" they believe they have discovered. They often put themselves out-there, in very socially uncomfortable situations, in an effort to save people (sometimes people they don't even know). For someone who believes they have discovered divine truth -- evangelism is an act of love, not hate. To keep "divine truth" to yourself is far more hateful than possibly making someone socially uncomfortable.

There is a YouTube video of Penn (from Penn and Teller), an Atheist, discussing an encounter he had with an evangelical Christian at an event. His conclusion is similar.

kbz

[0+] Author Profile Page Godzilla_is_coming said:

Babysitting this kid seems to cause you a lot of grief. Maybe you would be happier taking care of the kids of somebody more liberal? It might be better for all concerned since the mother would probably be opposed to you discussing with him world views that contradict hers. You can't save everybody all the time and he is probably too young to have developed the critical thinking skills needed to question his mother.

[0+] Author Profile Page Hypatia said:

As his babysitter, I personally don't think you are in the position to replace the values and beliefs his mother has instilled in him with your own, no matter how wrong they may seem.

However, you can show him that there are a variety of alternative perspectives to his out there. How about reading him bedtime stories that are more "culturally aware", like maybe stories about Hindu mythology, or Chinese folk tales, etc. Anything that incorporates a cultural diversity and kids his own age. You can find children's books like these at any library.

Not only is it educational, you're also showing him how there are children all around the world who are just like him, but live in different ways.

[0+] Author Profile Page Electrickoolaid replied to Hypatia :

Thank you so much, that's exactly the type of response I wanted. Very respectful and helpful. I'll definitely look into getting him some books about diverse cultures and religious beliefs.

Dude, he's 7. There is a limit to what he can cognitively understand. Go with a "why do you think that?" or an "I don't think that." and leave it at that.

[0+] Author Profile Page Electrickoolaid replied to FrumiousB :

But that's the problem, is I always say things like that to him and he just says something like "the Bible says it" or "I learned it in Church" or "Mom told me that it's true." As I mentioned in this post, he is completely unfazed by anything that he can possibly challenge with "I heard it from an adult. That means it's true." and any arguments beyond that are met with the same response. Just saying something like "some people don't agree" evokes the response "They're all going to hell". That's the issue that I was posting about in the first place.

[0+] Author Profile Page zerk replied to Electrickoolaid :

Ah, if this is your concern... I had many Christian friends when i was at that age and i remember having conversations about religion with them. I think the big thing that got us all thinking more critically about what adults were telling us was: Why would a truly loving creative force like God allow such a thing as Hell (everlasting pain and suffering beyond imagination) to even exist? Some of us started to feel that meant God as conceived by Christians must not exist, where others used that to have more in-depth conversations with our ministers and refine our beliefs. But at any rate, these conversations were the beginning of taking our respective faiths and making it more truly OURS and not just regurgitating what our parents said.

[0+] Author Profile Page j.elise said:

You (and I) may not agree with it, but believing what he does about Jesus is a central tenet of evangelical Christianity. Religion (says a deeply religious woman) is not logical, and by engaging it on the level of logic you're setting yourself up to fail. Ever tried debating creationism, even with someone past puberty? Yeah... ever won that one?

Don't try to convince him otherwise. It's not your place, and the kind of nuanced argument you want to have about it is really not possible for a seven year old who has been taught all his life that he's washed in Jesus' blood. Instead, be a good person, who he trusts, who disagrees with him. That people like you, and those Jewish characters in that book, and your mom's Hindu friends, exist at all will go further toward teaching tolerance than any argument ever could.

When he says that everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is going to hell, say something like, "Well, that's what you and your family believe, but people believe many different things... I (or my family, or my friend Hephzibah, or whatever) think X. Religion is very personal." And then move on.

[0+] Author Profile Page Electrickoolaid replied to j.elise :

Thanks very much for the input, it was very helpful. But what do I say when I do tell him about a different religion that's very important to a different family and he responds with "They're definitely going to hell"? This isn't a child who shrugs things off when there's a disagreement. He contradicts you relentlessly until you get so frustrated with him that you drop it and he gets the last word. Despite what everyone's saying about how he's only 7 (and therefore apparently incapable of discussing anything ever?), his mom and I have talked in detail about how he manipulates people to get his way and he knows that he's doing it. This kid isn't stupid. He's actually very clever and perceptive.

[0+] Author Profile Page Sleepy said:

Reminds me of a few years ago at my daughter's 6 or 7th birthday when I was in the kitchen with one of the girls (also around 7). I don't remember the exact conversation, but she was very worried about going to hell. She brought it up out of the blue, just like that. Anyway, not knowing exactly what to say, I just said "No, you're not going to hell. You're a good girl." in a tone that made it seem like it was just so obvious. (Hey, I'm a Unitarian Universalist. The "Universalist" part means that God is too good to send anyone to hell for all eternity.) Whether this was the right thing to say or not, it was the best thing I could come up with in 5 seconds.

Beyond that, though, I would not bother debating with a 7 year-old. Just saying there are some who think differently is enough.

[0+] Author Profile Page alixana said:

I agree with everyone up above, but I'd also probably firmly tell him, "There are a whole lot of people in this world who all believe different things, and you're not going to make friends with many of them if you tell them they're going to hell."

Unfortunately, I think in this case you may have overstepped. The child is reflecting the religious beliefs of his parents. Religious upbringing is their responsbility and not yours. If he believes people who don't believe in Jesus go to hell, then that's what he believes. Telling him there are other people who believe other things and everyone's entitled to their beliefs is good -- but that's probably not what his parents believe.

I think you may need to find another family to sit for since this one has a lot of conflict with your personal belief system.

[0+] Author Profile Page knitgirl said:

Whether or not you agree with the religious teachings in that family, it's just not your place or role as a babysitter to contradict them. Personally, I would want to teach a child of mine religious tolerance. If you have kids, you can teach them as you want. However, this is a family matter and not something you can have any role in. I don't agree with the theories of these parents, but that doesn't mean you can go against them as the sitter. If it's a big conflict for you, then I recommend finding a new babysitting gig.

[0+] Author Profile Page starryeyed.kid21 said:

I'm going to say something different than "he's seven, and you're his babysitter." Yeah, he is, and you are, but that doesn't mean you can't teach him!

Just tell the kid that the beliefs of Allah, Vishnu, and Buddha all came before Jesus. That, depending on the part of the world, the religion varies significantly.

Teach, don't debate. If he refuses to listen, back off. There's absolutely no harm in teaching him things, especially history. I doubt anyone would be angry if you taught him history.
I remember sitting in church when I was eight and learning the reasons why other religions were wrong. It made me angry, because no one in my family was religious, yet they were all going to go to hell? It made no sense to me.

[0+] Author Profile Page Electrickoolaid replied to starryeyed.kid21 :

Thank you for being respectful and answering my question :)

[0+] Author Profile Page SquaredCircle replied to starryeyed.kid21 :

Just had to point this out: belief in Allah came after belief in Jesus

"Just had to point this out: belief in Allah came after belief in Jesus..."

Those Christians and Jews whose native language was Arabic believed in Allah long before Mohammed founded Islam.

[0+] Author Profile Page zerk said:

Unlike others i feel that 7 is a perfectly fine age to discuss the deeper nature of the universe, religion, and social harmony.

But that said, well, for his faith, isn't he right?? I mean, isn't it one of the basic tenants of Christianity that the only way to avoid hell is "accept Jesus as your lord and savior"?? If this is true, you're basically trying to argue him out of his faith, which i don't think is appropriate for any age, much less with the power differential between babysitter and child.

For me, i'd be curious to know how he FEELS about hell. It seems like those feelings might be where a more respectful, helpful conversation can happen. Like, is he scared of hell himself? How does he feel about those of us who are supposedly going to hell? Does he feel sorry for us? Does he want to force us all to adopt his faith to keep us out of hell? Does he think folks who "hell-bound" are bad people? Or does he know many of us are actually very good people? Including friends and neighbors?
....I suspect that it is in these ideas that the quality of relationships -- with other people and himself -- and boundaries will be effected. I have met people who do believe in hell (and that most of us are going there) but are certainly pleasant, agreeable people because they have already sorted out these issues.

[0+] Author Profile Page Electrickoolaid said:

OP here. Thanks for the input, everyone. Let me just say that, for reference, I'm not just his babysitter. I've known him for a long time and he calls me his big sister. We hang out frequently outside of babysitting. Sorry I didn't make that clear in my post, but we talk about a lot of things, he asks me questions about the world and is interested in talking to me and I'd even venture to say he looks up to me. This isn't just some kid I babysit that I want to indoctrinate my liberal beliefs into. He's practically my little brother. Our parents are dating -- we're one legal document away from being step-brother and step-sister. So no, I don't think I'm overstepping my boundaries by telling him that there are lots of different people in the world.

ohhhhhhh

In that case, I'd say break him into the ideas easily. Respect his beliefs because they are his (even at 7), but tell him how you see it and that he doesn't have to agree -- and sometimes that's also how religion works, too.

I think framing it from "I think this, but you think that. You might be right; I could be wrong, or something in the middle. What's important, though, is that it's OK for me to think what I want, and you to think what you want." He'll get the basics of it, and then be able to expand this idea as he gets older and has time to think in a less discrete logic and more dyanmic fashion.

[0+] Author Profile Page KBZ said:

You seem to be asking more of a seven-year-old than you are of yourself. You are tolerant of all beliefs ... except the belief that there is only one true belief system? In Christianity, it is quite clearly stated that Christ is the only way. That is the fundamental belief system of him and his family -- you should respect that.

To my mind, "tolerance" means understanding that other people are free to believe differently. Tolerance is not modifying your core beliefs to comport with belief systems that are inconsistent with your own ... it is allowing others to disagree without bother them (or re-educating their children).

Thus, he (and you) must know that there are people that disagree with him (and you), and that they are free to do so. This includes the ability to disagree about the premise that all belief systems are of equal worth. He, like all Christians, is free to believe that worshippers of other deities are hellbound.

Honestly, if someone (close friend, babysitter, or whomever) was intentionally undermining my value-system to my child, that may be the last time they saw them.

kbz

[0+] Author Profile Page JoanOfArc said:

To many christian churches, the belief that Christ is the only way to salvation is an essential part of their faith. So if you are trying to get him to believe otherwise, yes, you are attempting to change his beliefs. That doesn't mean what you are doing is bad, but it is overstepping somewhat.

Now, since you may become this kid's stepsister, I think you have more room to maneuver. But I really urge you not to debate with this kid as much as listen and ask questions. He is at an age where he will likely believe what he is told by his mother and church, as they are authorities. Again, I think you can say that "Well, people believe different things." He may want to know more. Or he might not. I think, in time, he will be curious and you can have a deeper conversation. But keep it age-appropriate. Seven is young and if he was raised in a religious house, it will likely take him time before he is willing to question his beliefs and the central authorities in his life. Give him time and be a resource and willing ear. I fear if you push too hard, he will just cling to his beliefs all the stronger, as you described him as stubborn.

I was in agreement with other commenters here that it isn't your place until you clarified that you are virtually step-siblings. In this case, I do think that you are in a position where you are freer to exert some influence than as just a babysitter. That being said, Christianity as a religion is highly intolerant of other religions and is predicated on the narcissistic belief that it and only it is the "true" religion. So, when the boy says that anyone who isn't a Christian are going to hell, he's correct, at least in his narrow and perhaps brainwashed religious worldview.

Still, I agree that it is troubling to hear such a young child express such views vehemently. My mother-in-law is religious in her own way, but does not subscribe to any one religion nor does she go to church. Two of her three sons married religious women and have become Christians themselves, my husband being the lone agnostic. On an Easter visit home earlier this year, my 5-year-old niece asked my MIL if they could talk privately. She was highly distressed. After they left, my somewhat dazed MIL said that Klara had asked her if "she knew God." My MIL was caught off-guard and said, "Why, yes Klara. I know God" to which Klara replied, "But you never talk about him." Klara's distress stemmed from the fact that she's been taught that anyone who isn't a Christian is going to burn in hell for eternity. And by hell, the image that is often presented to Christian children is that of a fiery inferno where people are tortured forever despite little biblical evidence to support such a claim (not that hell exists, but that it is a fiery place presided over by a demon waving a pitchfork and sporting horns).

I think you could help your young charge not by actively arguing with him, which seems to bring out the worst in him, but by passively educating him in under-the-radar ways. Read him books about other religions like this one. Take him to an art museum and use it as a vehicle to discuss other cultures. Heck, just going to an ethnic restaurant might be a great way to start such a conversation. And since you will be in a role soon of sister-en locis, I would also recommend the book Parenting Beyond Belief, a guidebook for atheist and agnostic parents. I'm not advising you to "teach" atheism to this boy, but rather this book might be helpful in helping you show him how Christianity does not have a monopoly on things like ethics and morals. You could also ask him to explain when he says things like "They're all going to hell" to challenge him in an indirect way on what it is he really knows and understands. You might also try going to church with him sometime to show him that A) you support his religion, and B) to better understand what he's learning and in what context. Best of luck.

[0+] Author Profile Page Mina replied to Rachel :

"...And since you will be in a role soon of sister-en locis..."

Would that be "in loco sororis," a la "in loco parentis"? :)

Speaking of being practically this child's stepsister, Electrickoolaid, have you tried talking to other adults in your family about the problems? You said "Our parents are dating -- we're one legal document away from being step-brother and step-sister," so would it be feasible to talk to the parent of yours who's dating one of his parents? I get the impression that maybe you could get advice and support from other adults in your family instead of having to deal with the child, his mother, and these issues alone.

Of course, I can also understand how having that conversation might not be feasible. It could be one thing if your mother or father is dating his father (like maybe "is my boyfriend's ex being a pain again?"), it could be another thing if your father is dating his mother (like maybe "don't criticize my girlfriend!!!"), and I don't know your family's circumstances.

[0+] Author Profile Page feckless said:

God = Allah btw

BTW, Allah isn't a separate god from the one that devout Christians and Jews believe in. "Allah" is the Arabic word for the English word "God" (and also the Malay word for the English word "God" since Malay has some words from Arabic). A Christian talking in Arabic or Malay about her or his faith may very well say that she or he believes in Allah. This was even recently on the BBC News: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7164872.stm So this kid already believes in Allah, he's just talking about the father of Jesus in a language with another word for Allah.

[0+] Author Profile Page KestrelRedfern said:

Aesop's Fables, Aesop's Fables, Aesop's Fables!!! It's a great way to encourage morality without all the religious mumbo-jumbo. It is a great jumping off point for teaching tolerance and diversity too. (I was free to choose my own faith growing up-about the only thing my Ma got right-and religion NEVER made as much sense as Aesop.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought it went like this:

Christians think Jesus is the messiah and "god incarnate"

Jews think Jesus was a significant historical figure, however, NOT the messiah (just a naughty boy, can't help a Monty Pyhton reference there ;))

Muslims think Jesus is just a cool dude, not a messiah, not a naughty boy, somewhere in the middle.

Of course, it's been a while since I've read the Qu'uarn, the Torah and the bible, but I remember when I did read them there was a REMARKABLE resemblance and common thread through all three.

Please, don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong though :)

Leave a comment


Search Feministing
About Feministing Community
Feministing Community is a forum for a variety of feminist voices and organizations.
Related Posts
Related Feministing Posts
Upcoming Events
  • For The Bird Collective presents The Big She-Bang IV
    Saturday, 15 August 2009 10:00 AM to 11:55 PM
    Judson Memorial Church
    New York, NY
  • NARAL Pro-Choice Virginia Fundraising Happy Hour
    Wednesday, 19 August 2009 04:00 PM to 07:00 PM
    The Big Hunt
    Washington, DC, DC
  • Time Change to NARAL Fundraiser
    Wednesday, 19 August 2009 05:00 PM to 08:00 PM
    The Big Hunt
    Washington, DC
  • Feminist Men: Increasing Visibility
    Wednesday, 19 August 2009 07:00 PM to 10:00 PM
    People Lounge
    New York City, NY
  • Feminist Men: Increasing Visibility
    Wednesday, 19 August 2009 07:00 PM to 11:00 PM
    People Lounge
    New York City, NY






Recent Community Comments
Feministing As You Like It
Get involved with Feministing by joining our networks on:
Subscribe to Feministing