Hi all, this is my first post. I've been reading this site for almost a year now and I've noticed a lot of personal experiences get posted here on the community blog. I've never quite understood how someone can get mad enough to write a post about something.
Until now.
I just had a conversation with a really good friend of mine who was talking about his sister who is starting college in the fall. His father was apparently on the phone complaining to the university that his daughter's randomly selected roommate was a lesbian. This absolutely blew my mind. Apparently, my friend's father believes that his daughter will be molested by a lesbian roommate. Right. Because all homosexuals totally can't control themselves and are attracted to every single person of the same sex. Sure.
This just made me sooooo angry. I feel so bad for the other girl who is now put in the position that her new roommate who she has never met hates her because of something she can't control. On top of that, her new roommates father has called the university to make a big deal about it (and I can tell you, he is NOT being quiet about the reason WHY he doesn't want his daughter rooming with her). AND ON TOP OF THAT her new roommate's family is all telling THEIR friends about it. College is a difficult adjustment period to begin with, but to have this added on top of that... how humiliating.
My friend doesn't think there's anything wrong with not wanting to room with someone that makes you uncomfortable, and I get that, I really do. However, I see no need for the mass freakout that his father just went through. His sister could have simply requested a roommate change quietly without telling them it's because her roommate is a LESBIAN, oh heaven forbid *eyeroll.*
This just made me so mad. I argued as best I could with him saying that the girl has the same right as his sister to live there, but my friend is rather moderate-leaning-conservative, so I knew I wouldn't get very far. One comment that really stuck with me was when my friend mentioned that his sister would be stuck with a lesbian roommate instead of someone with similar interests. I guess I want to ask this question and see if anyone in the community has any answers: How do some people become so afraid of homosexuals? And furthermore: How is it that when you are a heterosexual you aren't labeled by your sexuality and can have "interests" but when you are homosexual, the extent of your identity becomes "gay" or "lesbian"?
I know this has probably all been discussed before, but I just got so angry and I couldn't think of anywhere else to vent. Thanks for reading :-)
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this girl should be going to Bob Jones university or something. how awful. what will she do in the real world when she's forced to work with people that aren't exactly fitting into the parameters of her beliefs? i feel so bad for the new roommate :( it's hard to believe people can be this silly.
Explain how working with someone is remotely the same as living with them. I wouldn't want to room with a girl, nor a gay male, so I really don't see what the issue is. That fact has zero impact on my ability to interact and work with them.
Every time I read a post on this website, it leads me to believe people are just looking for stuff to get pissed off about.
a roommate is like a coworker in that you SHARE space, there's no rule that says you have to like roommates. the same with coworkers. there's no rule that you have to be friends or agree with them. but you have to share that space together. sure, a job is less intense maybe (but it's probably more hours a day and more interaction is required). liking your roommate or coworker is a total bonus, and not a given. I used that as an example of having to learn to deal with differences in a situation you're thrown into by life in general.
where should this school draw the line? should people refuse to room with others on the basis of their size? their race? their religion? whether or not they're attractive or have the same political beliefs? their ability to be fashion forward? their dietary restrictions? physical abilities?
a lesbian roommate isn't going to do anything differently than a straight roommate other than who they may be dating. it's the same as a lesbian coworker. it's not like ALL LESBIANS want to have sex with ALL FEMALES they meet.
life is full of situations where we have to deal with things we don't necessarily feel comfortable about. c'est la vie.
Well, if we're going there, where should the school draw the line? I presume that there are women who refuse to room with men on the basis of their sex and that this is accommodated (not a huge stretch of the imagination I'm sure you'll agree).
Not all lesbians want to have sex with all females. I completely agree but by the same token not all males want to have sex with all females either. How many women here would be comfortable rooming with a man, I doubt it's all of you (some sure). Rooming involves sharing your personal space. Some people are going to feel uncomfortable rooming with others who may find them sexually attractive. Having that as a reason to request another room mate seems reasonable. That doesn't necessarily make you homophobic.
Making a big song and dance about it and emphasising the woman's sexuality though is not really appropriate. The request could be made on the basis I just described without going off the deep end publicly.
I also note that the original post says 'Room' with, not 'Live' with, bear this in mind.
"Well, if we're going there, where should the school draw the line? I presume that there are women who refuse to room with men on the basis of their sex and that this is accommodated (not a huge stretch of the imagination I'm sure you'll agree).
"Not all lesbians want to have sex with all females. I completely agree but by the same token not all males want to have sex with all females either..."
Exactly!
"...How many women here would be comfortable rooming with a man, I doubt it's all of you (some sure). Rooming involves sharing your personal space. Some people are going to feel uncomfortable rooming with others who may find them sexually attractive. Having that as a reason to request another room mate seems reasonable. That doesn't necessarily make you homophobic..."
Meanwhile, this is why schools building new dorms should make sure the bedrooms are single-occupant. This way the residents get more privacy and pairing off strangers to share bedrooms becomes a moot point! ;)
Why wouldn't you want to live with a girl or gay guy?
So leave.
Okay, so you think we SHOULDN'T be pissed about this? Really?
When I place myself in the lesbian roommate's shoes, I feel heartbroken. Her roommate doesn't even know ANYTHING about her besides the fact that she is a lesbian, but she jumps to the conclusion that she is a molester. As a bisexual female, I can understand how hurt she must be. I've had the same sort of experiences, where a girl finds out I am bi,and then decides that she can't be around me because I might try to make a move on her. It isn't fair that this person is being prematurely judged on one mere fact of her personality.
Also, as the original poster pointed out, she is not seen as a PERSON with INTERESTS who just happens to be a lesbian. She is seen as a lesbian and nothing else. This strips queer people of all humanness in people's eyes, which is BAD and completely out of line. This goes beyond being "uncomfortable" with having her as a roommate, it is otherizing all queer people and, not to mention, making the lesbian feel like shit for no reason.
It's not justified. It's bigotry and it is fucking stupid.
Think of how you would feel if you had to go through life walking on eggshells, trying to make sure that the normal people aren't "uncomfortable" by your presence.
"I've had the same sort of experiences, where a girl finds out I am bi,and then decides that she can't be around me because I might try to make a move on her."
Apart from the having to find out bit, there are a large number of women who act like that around guys.
And I agree, it's completely not fair.
U know what Bob Jones is. That's soooo funny. I went there for a year and almost lost my mind. I'm sure they think I'm going to hell now.
How did these people even find out that the roommate was a lesbian? Because they haven't even met yet, right? Because you said she's starting school in the fall implying that she hasn't moved in and started yet...so how do they know. Did the students have to list their sexual identity on a form or something?
I too feel horribly bad for this rooommate. Starting college is a hard enough experience, then add this on top of it...ugh!
To answer your questions, I think one reason people are so afraid of homosexuals is that some really do think it's some kind of sexual disorder and there's something wrong with them. I don't understand it at all, but there it is. As for the second question, I don't know, but it really bothers me. It seems that a lot of the time when you're among those in the majority category you're defined by your minority status. You're not allowed to have an identity outside of that. It's a way of othering.
Also, Brad, why wouldn't you want to live with a gay male roommate? You do realize that you just share a room with them right? Not a bed. And just because they are gay doesn't mean they want to jump your bones or anything.
To answer your question, from what I was told, my friend's sister found her roommate on Facebook and saw on her profile "interested in women." As far as I'm aware, the school did not list any personal information other than the roommate's name and e-mail address.
Thanks for elaborating on that part. I was about to get really fucking pissed off at this school (whatever school it is).
I was asking myself the same question, llevinso. How is it appropriate that this information was shared? Did the roommate share it in private correspondence to her prospective roommate? If not...inappropriate.
I do understand that there is could be some discomfort attached to rooming with anyone who might be (not will be) attracted to you -- a person might feel more self-conscious about changing clothes, for instance. (That's the difference between coworkers and roommates -- I have yet to get naked in my office, and I absolutely did in my college dorm room). If that is the case, then the thing to do would be to suck it up and recognize that roommates intentionally and unintentionally cause each other discomfort in myriad ways, or to discreetly ask to change rooms -- absolutely not to cause a fuss and to subject the lesbian roommate to humiliation.
In my opinion, there's a gigantic difference between a woman sharing a room with a lesbian and sharing a room with a straight man -- while there are many, many, many men who are in no way predatory (and no doubt a small handful of women who are), I think ordering women to share rooms with men would put them in danger in ways that sharing rooms with lesbians would not. There's a power dynamic difference between men and women, probably a physical strength difference, and the pervasive notion in society that women's bodies are perpetually available for men's pleasure. I would strenuously object to being told to share a room with a man I didn't know, whereas I would not object to sharing a room with a lesbian at all. Yes, some lesbians would probably be attracted to me and some would not. Some straight men would be attracted to me and some would not. When it comes to the danger of being assaulted, though, attraction is HUGELY less of a factor than privilege and entitlement.
So, if privilege and entitlement, along with physical strength are the issues. Would you share a room with a feminist male if he were no stronger than you?
-----
Now that you've thought about that, was your considered opinion different from your gut response?
(this was not intended as a rhetorical question)
My gut response and my considered response are the same: I would not be entirely comfortable with it, and some of my actions would be different than if I had a straight female roommate (for instance, I wouldn't sleep wearing only panties during hot weather, as I often did in college), but I would be willing to share a room with this man. (I would, however, have many questions and want to get to know and trust him before sharing a room -- even a truly feminist man still has male privilege, and there are unfortunately many self-proclaimed feminist men who still feel entitled to access women's bodies.)
I think what you're getting at is that most people have some level of gut-discomfort in sharing an intimate space with someone who may be sexually attracted to you. (Is that true? I hope I'm not misunderstanding). I agree. I just wanted to point out that while a school may be subjecting a young woman to some discomfort by pairing her with a lesbian she does not know, they could well be subjecting her to danger in pairing her with a man she doesn't know. That's a big difference for me.
I also don't want to forget the lesbian girl in this situation --as the OP pointed out, she's almost certainly going to have to deal with a huge amount of discomfort this year, and my heart goes out to her. I almost hope for her sake that your friend's father does succeed in getting his daughter moved, so the lesbian woman has a shot at getting a roommate for whom she is not merely The Lesbian.
I'm sorry if I derailed into this being about Straight Women And Our Important Feelings Which Are More Important Than Queer Womens' -- that is not my intention!
"[...] most people have some level of gut-discomfort in sharing an intimate space with someone who may be sexually attracted to you. (Is that true? I hope I'm not misunderstanding). I agree."
That was the main point of a couple I had.
1. What you said. Though we should consider that people are different and the level of discomfort they experience in that situation will vary.
2. The assumption that you are automatically more dangerous if you are male. It's really not a fair assumption and contributes to the emotional isolation of men in our society.
You see, you said you would have to get to know the guy before hand but had no qualms about rooming with a woman straight out - she might be an axe murderer you wouldn't know - chances are she's not but how would you know? I just have a real problem with with actions that are determined by a probability argument that relies entirely on the sex of the individual involved.
2. The assumption that you are automatically more dangerous if you are male. It's really not a fair assumption and contributes to the emotional isolation of men in our society.
I agree wholeheartedly that this assumption is unfair and that it contributes to male emotional isolation. However, it is what it is. I don't like the probability argument any more than you do, but ignoring the far greater likelihood of male-on-female violence just isn't a viable alternative.
If we could manage to make society safe for women, then it would be more reasonable to argue against the unfairness of women being uncomfortable in the presence of men. But we really aren't there yet.
I accept what you are saying. I knew when I made the post that improved awareness of the issue was the best I could hope for.
Then again, the profligacy of the assumption that men are dangerous to women is one of the things that makes it seem normal: a self fulfilling prophecy.
Any time you can act counter to that assumption brings us closer to a safer environment for women.
Warning: long long comment! Sorry for the delayed response, I check in infrequently. Thank you, Unequivocable, for your comments, they're right on.
This is a shining example of the fact that "patriarchy hurts men too!" There is no doubt that there are tons of men who truly respect women and would under no circumstances commit sexual assault. It is unfortunate and painful for these men to live with the knowledge that women might see them as potential rapists before seeing them as individuals. The probability game sucks.
However. You are putting the responsibility for this situation exactly where it doesn't belong -- on the historically oppressed, the vulnerable. By calling this a "self-fulfilling prophecy" you're suggesting that defending oneself based on the fear of being raped causes rape. Victim blaming ding ding ding ding ding! It is extraordinarily unfair to ask women to make themselves (more) vulnerable so that men's feelings aren't hurt. Mothers give daughters long lists of tips to avoid rape -- and believe me, they're not doing it because they want men to be emotionally stunted, they're doing it because rape is a real and ever present danger for women.
Here's another thing about institutionalized sexual violence, and part of the reason this is about more than probability. When I met my freshman college roommate, it did not even cross my mind that she might be, say, a thief (which I would guess is more comparable in frequency to rape than axe murder). I think that's largely because if she had stolen things from me, I would have had clear recourse. I could reasonably expect that if she were hurting me in some tangible way, the college authorities would step in to protect me, friends would step up to support me, and that I would be able to see some form of justice.
But I would know that by accepting a male roommate I'd not only potentially be making myself more vulnerable to rape, I would be making myself "unrapeable" in the eyes of the world. If I was raped by a male roommate then in private and public and legal contexts, people would immediately be saying -- "You know, sometimes she'd go back to her room at night after having a couple of drinks, so she probably just had drunk sex with him and regretted it.""She didn't make a fuss when she heard she'd have a male roommate, so you know she can't have actually been against having sex with him." "I saw her in their room once in nothing but gym shorts and a t-shirt." "I hear she'd have guys (or girls) stay overnight sometimes, so what was her roommate supposed to think?" "I was in their room once and she was sitting on his bed reading" -- this besides all the normal victim blaming stuff if I hadn't screamed loud enough, fought hard enough, been virginal enough, reported it fast enough, cried convincingly enough, been bruised and bloody enough, been 'out of his league' enough...People would come out of the freaking woodwork to defend him and to make it my fault. This is a very real consideration, and it's the responsibility of the privileged (first and foremost) to fix.
Again, I apologize for the derailing, but I'm sick of people acting like it's hypocrisy to demand lesbians not be discriminated against unless we're willing to share a double with a man.
As someone said in this thread (sorry, not sure who!), why don't we have single-occupancy bedrooms? Co-ed suites of single bedrooms seems like an ideal solution to me.
One more thing -- queer and trans folks are also subjected to very high levels of sexual violence. So once again, single-occupancy bedrooms would probably be best -- not to protect straight cis people from them, but the exact reverse.
I don't think this is as clear cut as you're making out.
For this to be an easy to discriminate case of victim blaming, I would have to be criticising the women for making the choice not to go co-ed, when in fact it is the administrators who have made that decision. And therefor the aministrators I am criticising. It is the administrators who have universally decided that women are too vulnerable to men to even let individuals have the choice about whether to share with a member of the opposite sex.
When administrators or society as a whole make decisions for the rest of us and in doing so infer that women are not safe alone with men, then yes I think this contributes to rape culture (hence my self fulfilling prophecy remark). I liken this situation to putting a ban on women travelling alone at night because "they aren't safe on their own at night." You see, I think you've got it backwards, if we mandate a situation on the basis that a woman alone with a man isn't safe, then we are telling women that is true in general; thus when they do choose those situations society says, hey you knew the danger (that's why we try and protect you) if you went in there then you must have been ok with what was going to happen, and that is victim blaming.
Now, it's true that I asked the members of the discussion board here if they would feel comfortable sharing with a man. BUT I put a ryder on it. I specified that that male would be a feminist and no stronger than the women in question. I can't agree with you that sharing in that circumstance would be putting women in danger. Do you know something I don't? Do you have figures on how many men who self identify as feminists commit rape? My gut feeling is that a woman who shares with such a man is less likely to be raped than a man who shares with a random man.
What I was getting at with the probability based argument is that the person's sex is not enough information to decide whether you will be comfortable and feel safe rooming with that person. I agree that single rooms are far preferable but failing that I think people should be able to pick and choose for themselves who they room with using any criteria they wish. Unless you are in the military you'd never otherwise be told who you were to room with normally.
What I'm arguing for here is choice, choice and the openmindedness to think beyond a person's sex as the sole criteria as to whether they are a suitable room mate for you.
"So, if privilege and entitlement, along with physical strength are the issues. Would you share a room with a feminist male if he were no stronger than you?
"-----
"Now that you've thought about that, was your considered opinion different from your gut response?
"(this was not intended as a rhetorical question)"
Interesting question. For that matter, do you think you would share a room with a straight woman if you were male?
I definitely wouldn't have up until my early 20's, as I was really shy/modest when it came to body image (I wouldn't even take my shirt off at the beach or around other men.)
Now, I think I probably would. But it would take me some time to get used to the idea of sharing a room with someone on a regular basis. And if the person I was sharing with turned out not to behave reasonably I'd want to swap.
"...I do understand that there is could be some discomfort attached to rooming with anyone who might be (not will be) attracted to you -- a person might feel more self-conscious about changing clothes, for instance. (That's the difference between coworkers and roommates -- I have yet to get naked in my office, and I absolutely did in my college dorm room). If that is the case, then the thing to do would be to suck it up and recognize that roommates intentionally and unintentionally cause each other discomfort in myriad ways, or to discreetly ask to change rooms -- absolutely not to cause a fuss and to subject the lesbian roommate to humiliation..."
Great points!
"...In my opinion, there's a gigantic difference between a woman sharing a room with a lesbian and sharing a room with a straight man -- while there are many, many, many men who are in no way predatory (and no doubt a small handful of women who are), I think ordering women to share rooms with men would put them in danger in ways that sharing rooms with lesbians would not...I would strenuously object to being told to share a room with a man I didn't know, whereas I would not object to sharing a room with a lesbian at all..."
OK, got it.
Also, just curious here, what would you think of a man (whether he's asexual, bi, gay, or straight and whether he's cismale or transmale) if he would strenuously object to being told to share a room with a woman he didn't know?
Dear straight people:
1. You're not all that. We can resist your homophobic "charms", trust me.
2. We like willing partners who actually know what they're doing in bed and think *we're* smokin' hot, y'know?
3. Most colleges and universities have non-discrimination policies now which mean that no, actually, you can't ask to change rooms because your roomie is queer. Suck it up. They probably aren't thrilled to be rooming with you either. The point of college is to step outside your narrow little world, be exposed to different people and learn something.
So true. I will never understand why homophobic, straight people think that queer people will be attracted to them. An asshole who thinks of me as subhuman does not sound like the perfect mate.
I forgot about schools and their non-discrimination policies (most of them now do include sexual identity in there) so the father could very well be out of luck. At the same time though I don't want this roommate to have to deal with this bullshit from this girl and her father so I'm kind of hoping they don't have to live together and the roommate gets to live with someone that's not homophobic.
I remember when I lived in the dorms my first two years of college. It was extremely difficult to get a roommate or room change. One of my friends had to wait a whole month and a half to be reassigned and had to appeal to some higher-ups about the discomfort she felt with her roommate.
This.
I've never met an attractive homophobe. :)
I think, for some people, it's not homophobia, but a change in the relationship dynamics. Straight people go into friendships with the opposite sex knowing it could very well end up physical/romantic in a way a friendship of the same gender would not.
When someone is queer, that dynamic has been altered, and now its "well, she could be attracted to me."
That's how I see it. I'm not scared of homosexuals, and I can be friends with them just fine. It's just a different dynamic. Once I know there's no attraction there, I can be content (the same as I feel about straight males).
I know that not all lesbians or bisexuals will be attracted to me. I doubt any would be. It's not a fear. Just a different relationship dynamic.
Wow, I'm excited that my first post actually got some comments and started some interesting discussion! Just thought this was interesting: my friend's father has stopped arguing the "safety" aspect of this (molestation, etc... obviously that failed) and is now bringing religion into it ("We're CATHOLIC and we believe homosexuality is WRONG and we shouldn't have to put up with this!" sort of thing) and that just bothers me seeing as I come from a Catholic family and we're all appalled at this man's intolerance. I'm starting to agree with Preppy... this girl should have gone to Liberty or something...
WE ARE CATHOLIC SO WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO INTERACT WITH DIFFERENT PEOPLE!!!
I'm pretty sure if I knew this person I'd want to punch them in the face.
"...Just thought this was interesting: my friend's father has stopped arguing the 'safety' aspect of this (molestation, etc... obviously that failed) and is now bringing religion into it ('We're CATHOLIC and we believe homosexuality is WRONG and we shouldn't have to put up with this!' sort of thing)..."
What a jerk!
Also, this new argument makes even less sense than his original, and both make less sense than something like "if my kid was male I wouldn't want him assigned to a bedroom with a straight female student either" would.
i'm so curious to know which school it is! i know i shouldn't care but i do... ! mostly, i think, because i imagine if it is NOT a private one, a student really can't have an expectation of any rules that would violate federal & state discrimination laws.
Ha, this is definitely not a private school, it's a state school in Virginia. And before anyone starts thinking they're intolerant because they're from the south, this particular family is from Philadelphia and has been for generations. Sorry to get all defensive, but I'm from Virginia and I get alot of "oh, it's because you/he/she/they are SOUTHERN" intolerance is not unique to states below the Mason-Dixon line ;-)
Oh I know what you mean. I'm from Chicago originally (and live here again now) but I lived in New Orleans for 5 years and Virginia for 2. I think the most racism (not sure about homophobia) I noticed has been in Chicago, not in the South, which is the opposite of what most people would assume.
There are no federal laws currently protecting from discrimination based on sexual orientation, and not all states have them either. That's why we need to pass ENDA.
I agree that this poor young woman needs to school to help her out and that this dad was way out of line. My first issue is that this woman's FATHER is still trying to control HER life even though she is an adult. My second is that he thinks she is going to attack his daughter just because she is a lesbian, something she has no control over. However, I will say that I am going to be an incoming freshman this year as well and will be sharing a room with a roomate who I do not know. I think it is better for these two to take care of this now and change rooms now before they have major issues and have to change rooms in the middle of the year, which is a major problem for them and the university. I also think that you have a right to room with someone you feel comfortable with and as rediculous as I think it is for someone to not be comfortable sharing a room with a lesbian if she doesn't feel comfortable rooming with someone because of that then she should be able to have a roomate she is comfortable with. Remember she does have to spend quite a bit of time with this person and since that room is her home she should be able to be as comfortable as possible.
One point I didn't make clear in the original post, the father isn't really still trying to control his daughter's life. She found out about her roommate's sexual orientation herself and then went to her father and TOLD him to complain to the university (at least, that is my friend's version of the story). I really agree with everything else you say about being comfortable and all that, I just thought that the way this issue was handled was ENTIRELY inappropriate is all.
One little spanner I would like to throw into the works...as I understand it, the girl saw 'interested in women' on her room-mate's Facebook profile. Did she actually communicate with her future room-mate or did she just see that and have a bigot attack?
The reason I ask is that several of my straight female friends have the very same thing on their profiles (some, alternatively, have their relationship status set to 'married') in order to prevent unwanted attention/messages from creepy blokes.
Not that it excuses the homophobia for one second.
Personally, I hope they do indeed end up sharing - and I hope that they become friends. That way there be one less homophobe in the world.
I also do think it is possible. Many students have their eyes opened in their first year, especially living away from home for the first time. I would also love to see her Dad's reaction when her 'lesbian friend' comes over for dinner for the first time.
"...Did she actually communicate with her future room-mate or did she just see that and have a bigot attack?..."
...or for that matter, did she have an "I don't want any roommate at all, now that my doctor won't give me a note about needing a single, I want another excuse, hey this info about my assigned roommate could work, to hell with how she might feel, I'm gonna complain until the school gives me a single!!!" attack?
From what I've been told, this girl has not had any direct contact with the roommate, simply saw "interested in women" on her profile and freaked. It seems kind of Hollywood-ending like, but I too am secretly hoping they room together and become best friends for life :-D
And, Mina, I don't know about the single thing. I suppose it is possible but, from what my friend has told me, she's trying to find someone else to room with now, so if that's her motivation, she's not getting what she wants there either. The whole situation is just kind of... sad. I hardly ever saw my freshman roomie when we lived together, and I haven't talked to her in 4 years. Just seems much ado about nothing, and homophobic to boot.
"...And, Mina, I don't know about the single thing. I suppose it is possible but, from what my friend has told me, she's trying to find someone else to room with now, so if that's her motivation, she's not getting what she wants there either..."
OK, sounds like it's definitely not trying to work the system to get a single. Thanks for the clarification!
I experienced the same problem with my homophobic parents and my lesbian roommate. My roommate was the sweetest, most adorable person I have ever come across- a real one in a thousand person. And, she never hit on me. We would sometimes jokingly flirt with each other, but it was just like we were sisters.