Touchy subject, probably triggering.
I was raped last September. (Or if I'm going to phrase it actively, a rapist raped me.) Sort of.
Mine is one of those gray-area cases that are tragically common, yet don't get much attention in the culture at large. I'm using my own personal experience to frame the issue.
I think the perpetrator thinks I gave consent. I did say "I can't," but I never explicitly said "NO." I never physically resisted. The perpetrator was even going to walk away at one point and leave me, but I eventually did say ok, let's just do it, for fear of the "cocktease" rumors that I thought would abound among our mutual circle of friends. I realize now that that "reasoning" is extremely fucked. We were both very, very drunk.
I feel like I was raped. It's been almost a year and I'm still afraid of most heterosexual men. I still get flashbacks and cry every now and then, though I have been able to enjoy consensual sex.
I think the perpetrator thinks it was just a stupid thing we did.
So who decides?
I'm leery to use the R-word when talking about... IT, not because I don't feel like it was rape but because I think the people I'm talking to don't think it is. I started seeing a therapist after the incident and she never used the word either, after I told her the details. I get the vibe that people think I'm being a drama queen. I think the perpetrator may be right in that it was just a stupid thing we did one night, and it just hit me extra hard because it was my first time and whatever, and with my feminist background I'm just touchy about the subject of violence against women in general. How can it be rape if the "rapist" read my actions as giving consent?
A professor and a mentor of mine says that its not the intentions that matter, it's the outcome. For example, if someone tells a racist joke and someone else is offended, just because the joker wasn't intentionally being racist doesn't mean the offended party's feelings aren't valid. So by that logic, if I think I was raped then I was.
But I did give consent, sort of. I'm afraid I'm almost cheapening the R-word to use it for my stupid drunken mistake, and I'm somehow making it less effective for the people who were "really" raped.
So. In a rape or sexual assault case, does the perpetrator's intent matter? Are potential perpetrators supposed to hear the trepidation in our voices as we finally relent, and be smart enough to stop when we are too afraid to? Is there another term we can use to describe an unwanted sexual experience for which consent was eventually, reluctantly, sorta given?
Or have I internalized all the victim-blaming language I've been hearing my whole life and being horribly irrational?
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i'm so saddened to hear you had to go through this. as far as intent, how can we know his intent? but from what you're saying it seems pretty clear that you were uncomfortable in this situation and were pulling away. this was obviously a matter where you felt forced/coerced, even if it wasn't physically. after all, look how you feel about it? you said "i can't". i believe, personally, this is cause for more than a pause on his part. it was a definitive and obvious signal and it was a NO.
Well, only you can really answer the question of what happened that night. I can tell you that based on your description, it sounds like rape t me. When you said "I can't", did the perpetrator stop, or continue? If he stopped and then you said "OK, let's do it", well, then I'm not sure. If he continued after you asked him to stop, it is definitely sexual assault.
I am truly sorry that you had this experience.
Now, I can't get in your head, so I might be reading you wrong. My opinion is that if you had given consent in a way that you were comfortable with, you would not be second guessing yourself right now. If your consent had been clear to you, you would not be wondering if you gave it. You might regret giving it, but you would not wonder whether you have given it. Based on what you wrote, it seems like it's not clear TO YOU that you consented. The word you use to label the experience is your decision. I think that you were clearly in a sexual situation that you did not want and that you felt was pushed on you. To me, that is a rape.
Was your therapist specifically a rape counselor? You might get a different angle if you talk to a rape crisis hotline. You can still call even if it was a year ago.
sadness and shame
I think there's a strange either/or thing that goes on when people get into this confused area - like, if it's not "rape," then it must not be something terrible.
If the guy thinks you did consent but you aren't sure whether or not you did or you're feeling like your 'yes' was coerced and it's leaving you with all these terrible feelings and still affecting you almost a year later, it's a horrible situation that you need to heal from regardless of whether or not you label it "rape." It's a type of sexual encounter that needs to be eradicated so that no one's left feeling confused and hurt and shitty and scared afterwards, regardless of whether or not it fits squarely in the "rape" box.
As far as the guy's intent, you don't mention persuing legal action. Depending on how rape statutes are written in your jurisdiction, intent might matter there. If you don't plan on pursuing legal action, in my opinion, it doesn't matter.
If calling it "rape" helps you figure out how to heal from it, then call it rape. If calling it "rape" would prevent you from healing, if it's too damaging to you, then don't.
If anyone tells you it wasn't rape and that you're cheapening the "R" word, I think that's besides the point because sex shouldn't leave anyone feeling the way you are afterwads. THAT'S what matters here.
This is a wonderful answer. Seriously, when it comes to unwanted sex, it's up to the individual who experienced the unwanted sex to determine for themselves how to define it in a way that will help recovery the best.
Do what's best for you.
The only problem with "If you FEEL like it was rape, then it was rape" is that by saying she was raped she is calling him a rapist. If she was raped by him, he's a rapist. I think rapists should be called rapists but that is a serious charge that needs to be substantiated by something more than a subjective feeling. I know she isn't talking about pressing charges and if she is just sitting around with friends talking about her 'rape' it remains a personal matter and no one els'es business. But if she is making that statement in any way that this guy could get labelled a rapist in his community she'd best be able to offer up more than "I really didn't want to but I told him I did anyway because I didn't want anyone to not like me or think I was a tease". Right there she is stating that she gave consent. Wishing she hadn't doesn't change that fact.
I agree with what Crumpet is saying. The OP says she did give consent, although she regretted it later. And labelling someone a rapist is a very serious thing.
This isn't the first time I've seen a post on here about a bad sexual encounter where the person posting wonders if it was rape. I wonder if we need to look at the fact that sometimes sex is lousy, sometimes partners can be jerks or be pushy, and sometimes we regret sexual encounters we've had, without it being rape.
> If anyone tells you it wasn't rape and that you're cheapening the "R" word, I think that's besides the point because sex shouldn't leave anyone feeling the way you are afterwads
I think this is BS. People sometimes regret they did something and why should sex be exception here?
No is saying that people can't regret sex. The situation described in the OP was very coercive and while it might not meet the legal definition of rape, it's still not consensual. Therefore, it's up to cunegonde how to label it.
If it is not consensual then it is rape. It is part of the definition of this term. So?
If the guy in the situation above thought that that cunegonde gave consent then he cannot be a rapist...
If he was highly intoxicated then he may not have been able to link the 'I can't' and the 'Lets do this' that occurred a minute later.
The situation involves cunegonde internal lack of consent and her apparent external consent.
They both were intoxicated. One of them wanted to have sex, the other one consented. This is rather common way of getting into sex. Nobody reads other peoples' mind.
Let me put it this way:
A man enters a woman's house and points a gun at her child. He says, "Do you consent to have sex with me?"
Fearing for the safety of her child if she says no, she says yes.
This is rape. No question.
This isn't what occurred in the OP. cunegonde didn't want to have sex, said she couldn't, but the fear of how she'd be labeled coerced consent from her. I would agree that this would not fit the legal definition of rape, but that doesn't matter, because she seems as though she'll not be pressing charges.
However, she's still feeling traumatized because of what happened and needs to find a way to deal with it. If that means labeling her experience as "rape" and finding that way through to recovery, I say go for it. If it means completely denying that anything happened or that she was fully consenting, if that's what works, that's what she should do.
Well it all depends on what exactly is being described when the word 'coerced' is used. Did the other party actually do any coercing or was the coercion entirely an expectation/assumption of what might happen if she said no? If the other party did coerce, what form did that coercion take? Was it a batting of the eyelids in an attempt to look more attractive, an 'is there anything I can do to change your mind?', an 'are you sure?' a repeated asking/pleading, an 'Oh our friends are going to hear all about this?' or a 'you're going to regret it later if you don't.'
Coercion on the part of one party can take many forms, some are grey areas, some are a darker shade of grey than others. I'd suggest that a request for reconsideration is a light grey, a threat is black, black mail is (as the name suggests) black, and everything else is somewhere inbetween.
If you've coerced yourself by internalising what might happen without the other party saying anything and you give verbal consent, well that's at least mixed signals and given that you are both drunk and less able to interpret those signals... If that's the case I don't think you should call it rape. Even if calling it rape might help you because doing so could have serious reprecussions for the other party in an instance where they don't deserve it.
As to what to call it if it's not rape, well how about 'an unwanted traumatic sexual encounter.'
Just to add to that, here is the OED definition of coerce:
1. trans.
a. To constrain or restrain (a voluntary or moral agent) by the application of superior force, or by authority resting on force; to constrain to compliance or obedience by forcible means; ‘to keep in order by force’ (J.). Also absol.
b. (with the action of the agent as object).
c. absol. To use coercive measures in government.
2. Const.
a. To compel or force to do anything.
b. To force into (an action or state).
3. To subject to restraint in the matter of. rare.
4. To enforce or effect by compulsion. (U.S.)
5. To enforce (anything) on any one. rare.
Force or the threat of force is the theme here. By this definition a request (to reconsider) certianly wouldn't be coercion nor would a suggestion (unless it implied a threat).
Well it all depends on what exactly is being described when the word 'coerced' is used. Did the other party actually do any coercing or was the coercion entirely an expectation/assumption of what might happen if she said no? If the other party did coerce, what form did that coercion take? Was it a batting of the eyelids in an attempt to look more attractive, an 'is there anything I can do to change your mind?', an 'are you sure?' a repeated asking/pleading, an 'Oh our friends are going to hear all about this?' or a 'you're going to regret it later if you don't.'
Coercion on the part of one party can take many forms, some are grey areas, some are a darker shade of grey than others. I'd suggest that a request for reconsideration is a light grey, a threat is black, black mail is (as the name suggests) black, and everything else is somewhere inbetween.
If you've coerced yourself by internalising what might happen without the other party saying anything and you give verbal consent, well that's at least mixed signals and given that you are both drunk and less able to interpret those signals... If that's the case I don't think you should call it rape. Even if calling it rape might help you because doing so could have serious reprecussions for the other party in an instance where they don't deserve it.
As to what to call it if it's not rape, well how about 'an unwanted traumatic sexual encounter.'
Sorry, I swear I only hit submit once.
As others have said, how you define and understand this experience is what matters most. If you feel your ability to give consent was compromised or that consent was unclear, coerced, etc. then this is assault. Defining it as such may also help you understand what happened and heal from it by appealing to support groups, literature, (a new, trauma-specific) therapist, etc.
I also think one of the most problematic "grey" areas occurs when someone feels pursued and coerced and eventually says yes simply to end the conversation/end the encounter/get it over with. This type of coercive sex should not be defined as consensual.
In any case, I am sorry this happened to you and I wish you the very best as you try to make sense of and recover from it.
You said "Ok" when he was going to leave you? It was not rape.
Only you can decide if what you went through was rape. However, no matter what happened that night the sex was NOT consentual and you need to seek treatment. My personal definition of rape covers any sexual experience where you were clearly not cmfortable with what transpired or any situation where you were not in a state to consent. To me being drunk covers that, as does the fact that you said "I can't" which is just a more deliberate version of "NO" and if he didn't listen to you and STOP when you say something like that then I would call it rape. But again I can't say that. It was your experience not mine. I would say rather than focusing on if it was rape or not rape it was still sexual assault and you need to seek treatment for it. Oh and it is a normal reaction of the rapist to try and pretend like nothing happened or to try and make you think that you really did consent/enjoy the experience when you really didn't. Please get treatment for it. Otherwise you will spend the rest of your life broken when you don't need to. Be the empowered woman that you know you are and embrace help because you need it.
I agree with much of this post... but please be careful about making statements like "Otherwise you will spend the rest of your life broken." I absolutely don't want to diminish the pain that many survivors of rape and sexual assault go through, but telling someone that it is certain that they will be permanently "broken" without "treatment" (and that "treatment" will necessarily prevent this outcome) is not helpful.
There are as many ways to survive sexual assault as there are survivors -- and while psychological damage from the experience and the potential benefits of counseling and medical care should not be downplayed, telling someone that she will "spend the rest of [her] life broken" without treatment is disempowering in itself.
Finally, to the OP -- regardless of what other actions you choose to take, please please please do get tested for STDs, even if you used a condom with this guy. Even if he wasn't deliberately trying to compel you into having sex with him, he doesn't sound like a very considerate guy... so it's pretty likely that if he did have any STDs, he didn't see fit to tell you about them beforehand
I didn't mean to be disempowering at all. I apologize if it sounded like that. Let me explain where I was coming from. I was raped and did not tell anyone for two years. I was so traumatized by the experience that I had a mental breakdown and was put in a mental insitution to recover. I now realize that had I sought psychlogical treatment I wouldn't have had the mental breakdown that I had and my rapist would probably be behind bars right now, not out where he could terrorize other women. I think that not seeking treatment is the worst thing that a survivor could do to themselves and I know what its like to feel all alone, that no one understands and that if you tell anyone they are going to blame you because there must be some reason to have deserved it, not because a rapist raped you and it had nothing to do with you and you could have done nothing to prevent it. But that was a place that I never would have come to without the treatment that I finally did receive even though it was way later than I needed it. Again I apoligze if I came off in a way that would disempower a victim to seek treatment and the help that she so desperately needs at this time
I'm responding to this even before reading other comments. I hate that you are continuing to struggle with self doubt and you are obviously in pain. I'm taking into account several specific things that you noted in your post and am not trying to project anything onto what you said.
Because you said that you did not tell him you did not want to continue the sex act, especially since you stated that at one point he was leaving and you asked him to come back and did agree to have sex with him, I do not consider this rape. A hallmark of rape being lack of consent and having something forced on you against your will. Agreeing to have sex with someone against your better judgment because you are insecure or worried about what others will think is not the same thing as having sex forced upon you. It is still a decision. Even making a bad choice for the wrong reasons is still making a choice. Yes, you were drunk, but not unconscious, and so was he. It isn't part of my feminist interpretation that when both parties are drunk the man is supposed to be more responsible, that his superior brain is supposed to do the noble thinking for both parties. I personally do not think that simply lacking enthusiasm for sex equates refusal. We have all done things in life when we really didn't want to , but we agreed to do it anyway for whatever reason. Agreed being the operative word. I cannot hold someone else accountable for not reading what I was thinking and I think that is something we women have a tendency to passively do in our relationships with men....we get hurt or angry because "they just should have known". That isn't fair to them or us.
None of this is meant to marginalize your feelings. They are real and you are struggling. It is possible to have lingering pain resulting from things we have had done to us as well as from things we have done to others. I was beaten up by a boy in high school over 20 years ago in front of the whole cafeteria. I hate that it still stings so badly when I think of it today....the humiliation and helplessness. I also carry deep pangs of guilt for things I witnessed happen to other people and I cowardly did nothing.
It sounds to me like you are struggling with some inwardly directed anger. Anger at yourself for worrying so much what other people (who don't matter anyway as it turns out)might think that you go along with a very intimate act you would rather not have participated in. When we betray ourselves it is often as hard to forgive as forgiving transgressions by others. You were being someone other than the kind of person you wanted to be.
Was this guy an insensitive jerk? Quite likely, because I think any decent man only wants to have sex with someone who seems really into it and into them. But some people have different standards. Being a jerk isn't a crime. People have the right to be who they are, even if that means not being thoughtful or considerate of others.
In the end I don't think we do a service to victims of rape who truly had their consent taken from them: women who were unconscious or afraid for their lives. I believe the branches of feminism that seek to paint females as victims in every scenario don't do any of us any favors. It's hard to argue that we are equal and should have all the same opportunities if we suggest that it is some one else's responsibility to save us from doing things we know we don't want to do to spare us regrets later. That is not autonomy, nor is it empowerment.....we are still relying on men to define us.
Deal with this the best way you see fit. I am sorry if I have said anything to hurt you. I was only trying to answer your question in the most respectful way possible but still being honest about my perspective.
Rape is more than just "having something forced on you against your will", as you say in your response. At least in my state's laws (and IMO), it includes being threatened or coerced or being incapacitated due to drugs or alcohol. So,if the OP was as drunk as she stated, it's not consensual. And him being drunk does not excuse his actions, just as a drunk bank robber is still a bank robber and can be charged for robbing the bank. It is not right to compare sexual assault experiences or to think that this somehow undermines the experiences of "real" victims/survivors of sexual assault. This is just as real as other experiences.
I believe you're missing out on a lot when you state that the only rape victims are those who are unconscious or afraid for their lives. Coercing someone into sex by claiming that they owe sex or taking advantage of someone when they are drunk (unconscious or not) is just as much sexual assault as threatening to harm someone or using physical force. It's unhealthy and non consensual.
Consent: there are many definitions but they all basically allow for the same principle....to agree. Agreeing to have sex because someone is threatening to shoot your child if you don't is not the same thing as agreeing to have sex for social approval. Regardless of why she gave consent, she clearly states that she did, even as he was LEAVING HER AND WALKING AWAY. It defies logic to say that because she regrets the decision she made she is not responsible for it. By your definition every woman who has sex while intoxicated is raped, but only if she feels badly about it afterwards. How 'incapacitated' she was at the time doesn't seem to matter as long as you still feel okay with yourself afterwards. This reasoning is partly why so many people feel free to assume that women make claims of rape to assuage their own guilt about betraying their own moral code by having sex with someone under less than ideal circumstances (he didn't call you anymore, you felt used, or you simply went along with the act for social acceptance). This man, however much a jerk he may be, is not responsible for her internal, subjective feelings. He is not responsible for knowing how she 'really' feels, only what she says she agrees to (or doesn't). Also, by taking the stance that her being drunk matters and his does not, that is enforcing the notion that sex is something a man does TO a woman, something we give and they take. If this man had regret and felt ashamed after sleeping with her, could he accuse her of rape? They had intercourse with each other. I do not consider sex as an act where man is active and woman is passive and I don't like the way that frames womens' sexuality. We spend a lot of time on here complaining about stereotypes that women don't want or really like sex, that it is just something we put out/put up with to please men, that is is something that happens TO us.
Look: I'm here working today. I didn't have to be and I do not want to be. I am not enjoying myself in here on this gorgeous day. But a colleague asked if I would cover for her as a favor and even though I did not WANT to, I agreed to anyway to be supportive and help out a friend. Can I say she forced me or that I really don't consent to being here simply because it is not my preference and I'm not enthusiastic about it or because I did it out of a sense of owing her a favor? Doubtful. For my own reasons I agreed to do something I'd really rahter not do, but I agreed nonetheless.
I like your post, I think you have hit the nail on the head. I just want to add one thing that people seem to confuse a lot. The whole drunk/incapacitated thing I think is misunderstood.
If you are too drunk to give consent then it is rape.
It's not you can't give consent if you are drunk.
As I understand it the law is to prevent depraved morons from saying "Well, she didn't say no," when the rape victim is half unconscious and barely capable of moving. It is not the function of the law to say, "Oh you were drunk when you said yes, well that doesn't count as consent then."
Here is the definition of consent (courtesy of the university I used to attend)that I was referring to when discussing alcohol and consent:
Consent is informed, freely and actively given, and mutually understood. If physical force, coercion, intimidation, and/or threats are used, there is no consent. If the victim/survivor is mentally or physically incapacitated or impaired so that the victim/survivor cannot understand the fact, nature or extent of the sexual situation, and the condition was or would be known to a reasonable person, there is no consent. This includes conditions due to alcohol or drug consumption, or being asleep or unconscious.
I think this goes with what you said about being too drunk to consent.
You have your defintion of consent and I have mine. I do not think that anything about my particular definiiton means that women are somehow passive. I have heard of men being sexually assaulted when they were extremely intoxicated as well. Feeling regret for engaging in sexual activity and feeling like you were sexually asaulted are two different things in my book. I am not going to argue with you, as you have your opinions and I have mine. I've known enough people who were sexually assaulted when one or both parties were drinking not to dismiss their experiences.
If you have your own definition for what rape is I would encourage you to argue for it. Hopefully through debate you can come to a consensus or at least closer to it. Having multiple definitions of rape in the community is helpful to no-one.
Not different definitions of rape - I think that's pretty clear - but different definitions of consent. The definition varies depending on who you talk to, what state you are in (in terms of laws) etc, etc. It's tricky...
"So,if the OP was as drunk as she stated, it's not consensual."
That's a problematic statement, because he was drunk as well and therefore just as incapable of giving consent. You can't say he is responsible for his actions while drunk but she isn't responsible for the consent she gave while drunk. They were both on the same playing field there.
Also, in the end, I think it is up to the victim/survivor to label the experience as they see fit. Just because it does or doesn't fit some legal definition should not determine how someone labels it, unless of course they intend to take legal action.
Also, in the end, I think it is up to the victim/survivor to label the experience as they see fit. Just because it does or doesn't fit some legal definition should not determine how someone labels it, unless of course they intend to take legal action. One last thing, there does not have to be an explicit "No" or physical resistance to indicate lack of consent. Silence does not mean yes. In an ideal world, those who wish to engage in sexual activity are responsible for getting freely given, mutually understood consent from the other party/parties involved.
Ah! Sorry for the double post.
The perpetrator was even going to walk away at one point and leave me, but I eventually did say ok, let's just do it, for fear of the "cocktease" rumors that I thought would abound among our mutual circle of friends. I realize now that that "reasoning" is extremely fucked.
IF he was going to leave because you given off you weren't interested then indicated you changed your mind without his coertion, then it's legally not rape, afaik. but, IANAL.
You may feel it was a regrettable experience, and you may feel violated. Since he displayed a willingness to stop the encounter at your unwillingness, then you changed your mind, I wouldn't implicate him as a rapist. He may have also done something regrettable, but you did give him consent as he was leaving.
This is not to say that your experience was not traumatic or to invalidate your feelings of violation. You are entirely ok to feel that way. Not every traumatic sexual experience is rape, but that doesn't make it any less traumatic.
My experience happened in reverse of yours. I gave consent, then withdrew it. He continued and I literally had to push him off of me and get everything back on. I was not raped, but my experience was exceptionally traumatic. I'm still grappling with it.
I make the point I make not to be an apologist, but because she mentions that she's afraid of rumor and backspeak and not what he'll do to her if she continues to say no. I didn't lift the impression that he was like "well, if you really mean no... *pouty face*" to coerce her. I got the impression that it was like "ok *drunken stumble for the door*". Even while drunk, if she in her own mind changes it without his coertion then it's a different story than if he was making weird comments while trying to leave.
If he was doing that, then I didn't pick that up in the subtext of the entry. Someone should point it out to me where it's implied because I totally missed it.
Again, this is not to diminish the experience the OP had because it's traumatic what happened. But, I think, it's important to keep the sequence of events in line to determine if something is rape or if something is regrettable sex. Everyone has regrettable sex at some point (well, many people); that doesn't mean that it's traumatic. It doesn't negate the possible need for therapy or any other recovery process.
I didn't lift the impression that he was like "well, if you really mean no... *pouty face*" to coerce her. I got the impression that it was like "ok *drunken stumble for the door*".
It was more of the former than the latter. I wish I was more clear in the original post.
Ok, thank you for the clarification.
Then, if it was the pouty face, then it changes things a bit. It could build a case for continued coercion even as he was leaving which may have prompted you to change your mind. Without the power-stealing aspect of the aspect itself, but really a sick desperation on his part to get a piece, I dunno what this would be. But, that's neither here nor there.
No matter what it technically is, you still have to process and to heal which is most important. Do what you need to do to continue your healing process. Good luck and all the best.
I feel like a lot of this thread is going to be a massive and useless debate over whether or not you got raped, and I'm not sure that's going to help.
You feel violated, and you still suffer the effects of whatever happened. Concentrate on working through those and less on defining your experience.
I'm glad to hear that you've been in therapy. If you've since stopped, I would really urge you to continue if that's an option. Do some research and see if you can find low-cost or free counseling, particularly by someone who specializes in victims of sexual assault. Whether or not you were raped, you are dealing with some of the same issues and reacting in a similar way.
Good luck. One day I hope you'll be able to heal.
I second this post.
I third it.
I fourth it
I didn't mean for this post to be a debate regarding my personal experience. Many of the points brought up in all the comments have been very useful for me to read, however, and they're helping me look at the experience in different ways.
I was really just trying to frame the questions in the final paragraph.
I really wasn't trying to start a debate regarding my personal experience. That being said, I do appreciate all the differing points of view you've all expressed.
My point in writing the post was to pose the questions in the final paragraph, and I used my shitty sexual experience to frame them.
This is such a complicated issue, and sex is so complicated. A high school teacher of mine once told us, well, when people are in relationships and having sex, you don't ask for consent for every touch, kiss, caress, etc., so that makes consent very difficult to figure out.
I have often wondered about my first time -- I don't call it rape, but I call it less than consensual. He wasn't a rapist, not in my eyes, just a young and immature guy who wasn't as aware of my feelings and needs as he should have been. In the middle of things, I asked him to stop, that I didn't like it, and he said, just let me finish. It was stupid on his part, but I don't consider it to be rape.
I think we probably should think of sexual assault and unwanted sexual advances in terms of a continuum -- to include those things that happen to us that aren't right, but aren't exactly sexual assault.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe all of these actions are part of rape culture. I don't know.
I think that people can't always read our minds, and sex can be similar. I haven't always enjoyed the sex I have had, and I have probably wanted to stop, but I didn't say anything. It isn't that it's my fault, but if the communication about sex isn't there from my side, what can one do?
I think women generally have to learn that it is okay to say that you don't want to have sex, and you don't have to worry about being called a "cocktease" or whatever.
It's all problematic, but I'm not sure how the consent issue works, and I think I would be just as confused as the original poster.
This is such a complicated issue, and sex is so complicated. A high school teacher of mine once told us, well, when people are in relationships and having sex, you don't ask for consent for every touch, kiss, caress, etc., so that makes consent very difficult to figure out.
I have often wondered about my first time -- I don't call it rape, but I call it less than consensual. He wasn't a rapist, not in my eyes, just a young and immature guy who wasn't as aware of my feelings and needs as he should have been. In the middle of things, I asked him to stop, that I didn't like it, and he said, just let me finish. It was stupid on his part, but I don't consider it to be rape.
I think we probably should think of sexual assault and unwanted sexual advances in terms of a continuum -- to include those things that happen to us that aren't right, but aren't exactly sexual assault.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe all of these actions are part of rape culture. I don't know.
I think that people can't always read our minds, and sex can be similar. I haven't always enjoyed the sex I have had, and I have probably wanted to stop, but I didn't say anything. It isn't that it's my fault, but if the communication about sex isn't there from my side, what can one do?
I think women generally have to learn that it is okay to say that you don't want to have sex, and you don't have to worry about being called a "cocktease" or whatever.
It's all problematic, but I'm not sure how the consent issue works, and I think I would be just as confused as the original poster.
"In the middle of things, I asked him to stop, that I didn't like it, and he said, just let me finish. It was stupid on his part, but I don't consider it to be rape."
This is called rape. It may not be recognized by law.
Ugh, the people labeling this as not rape because you didn't say no disgust me. The default state of women is NOT consent. Therefore, unless you say yes initially(via body language or whatever, without him continuing), it was rape. Intent does not matter. From what you say, he was going to walk away and leave at "one point"-the way you phrase made it seem like he kept going for a while. If he didn't care enough about your body and boundaries to make sure what he was doing was ok, that you were enjoying it and actively into it, he's a douchebag rapist. The initiator, or the person who wants to move 'further', of any sexual act has the responsibility to ask and make sure you are ok. Even if you sat still or said "fine, whatever" as he went on-that is not a YES, and makes him an inconsiderate asshole. Not your job to make sure you're not "raped"-it's HIS job, as the initiator, to make sure he's not raping, especially if you were both very drunk.
This is not "cheapening" the word rape in any way. You only consented under pressure, and that is not consent in any way. People don't get flashbacks from bad sex, stupid sex, or because someone was just bad in bed.
Your body and your feelings were not respected or really paid attention to as they should be-that is a violation and I'd call that rape. The legal system would not define it as that, but the law can always be wrong (see the post about child rape victims being arrested for prostitution, etc.) Since you ask, I'd say you've internalized the victim-blaming language-understandably so, because no one wants to think they've been raped. I've had therapists who said nothing was wrong with my ex grabbing my hand and forcing it on his crotch when I tried to pull away. Therapists don't live in a vacuum, and often they'll internalize the "grey rape"/victim-blaming bullshit of our culture-the same, unfortunately, is probably true with your friends and, obviously, the perp.
I hope you feel better and wish you luck in healing. It's not your fault and you aren't stupid.
Ugh, the people labeling this as not rape because you didn't say no disgust me. The default state of women is NOT consent. Therefore, unless you say yes initially(via body language or whatever, without him continuing), it was rape. Intent does not matter. From what you say, he was going to walk away and leave at "one point"-the way you phrase made it seem like he kept going for a while. If he didn't care enough about your body and boundaries to make sure what he was doing was ok, that you were enjoying it and actively into it, he's a douchebag rapist. The initiator, or the person who wants to move 'further', of any sexual act has the responsibility to ask and make sure you are ok. Even if you sat still or said "fine, whatever" as he went on-that is not a YES, and makes him an inconsiderate asshole. Not your job to make sure you're not "raped"-it's HIS job, as the initiator, to make sure he's not raping, especially if you were both very drunk.
This is not "cheapening" the word rape in any way. You only consented under pressure, and that is not consent in any way. People don't get flashbacks from bad sex, stupid sex, or because someone was just bad in bed.
Your body and your feelings were not respected or really paid attention to as they should be-that is a violation and I'd call that rape. The legal system would not define it as that, but the law can always be wrong (see the post about child rape victims being arrested for prostitution, etc.) Since you ask, I'd say you've internalized the victim-blaming language-understandably so, because no one wants to think they've been raped. I've had therapists who said nothing was wrong with my ex grabbing my hand and forcing it on his crotch when I tried to pull away. Therapists don't live in a vacuum, and often they'll internalize the "grey rape"/victim-blaming bullshit of our culture-the same, unfortunately, is probably true with your friends and, obviously, the perp.
Good luck in healing. It wasn't your fault and you aren't stupid.
I tend to think like this: (if you don't find this helpful, ignore this comment entirely)
You can accidentaly rape someone.
You're still responsible for the effects of your actions whether you intended a particular outcome or not. If you run a red light, it doesn't matter if you did it intentionally or if you just weren't paying attention. It doesn't even matter if the stoplight broken entirely: no clear green-for-go- light means you come to a Full Stop. If you ignore those rules, it's possible everything will be okay but it's also possible someone will get very, very hurt.
I would also say that you were clearly coerced into sex you didn't want; the fact that societal conditioning played may have played more of a role in this than the person you were with did directly doesn't change *your* experience. It may change the degree to which you view perpetrator as an evil asshole, but in this fucked up world we live in it's possible for people who aren't completely evil to rape someone in the 'grey area' way you describe, because they've drunk the patriarchal kool-aid that must be in the tap water or something.
I don't think the stop light is a good analogy. The reason being that a traffic infringement doesn't require intent to be considered as such. More serious crimes do require intent in this way.
Consider that it is impossible to murder someone without an intent to do so, rape is the same.
When it comes to killing, if someone is extremely negligent in causing someone's death then that is manslaughter. Perhaps there should be an equivalent with intercourse? But keep in mind that for manslaughter the negligence has to be at the extreme end, if you'd accidentally run that red light and that had resulted in a crash that killed someone chances are you'd incur the traffic offence but not be charged for manslaughter.
Another thing to consider: we've not been told what the guy was thinking. Does cunegonde know? It's possible he might have been relieved when she said she couldn't and then felt like he had to do it when she said ok. He might have been afraid that their friends would think there was something wrong with him if he walked away from sex. It's possible he felt coerced too. I bring this up to emphasise that intercourse is supposed to be a mutual activity, with mutual responsibilities on the part of the participants. In that respect this 'grey area' date rape is not like other crimes, and if everyone wants to define the responsibilities as the partner has to be attentive to a high degree as to what is going to coerce the other to do something that they are not 100% set on, then we could have the ridiculous situation where both people are rapists.
I believe this lady was raped. The outcome is the same.
Some people may feel more free to call it rape, because supposedly it will not be reported. Some consider this man the same as other rapists.
So that is my question: She was raped. She is receiving help. What is legal and appropriate to do about the man in a situation like this? Is it something for police, attorneys and a grand jury to sort out? Is it appropriate to name and shame this man, or to warn potential partners?
Thank you for telling your story. I'm sorry you had to go through such a terrifying situation. I don't want to engage in a debate about whether you were "really" raped or not, because that does not help you or the countless other women who have had similar experiences. You were psychologically coerced into having sex. He took advantage of you, whether we want to call it sexual assault, rape, or something else.
I know it's hard not to feel this way, but it's not your fault. Resist the self-shaming and stand up to others who shame you, i.e. if/when you see another therapist, or open up to someone about it.
If you are comfortable with the idea of seeing a therapist again, I would recommend seeking out a therapist who specializes in sexual assault survivors.
First of all, I'm sorry you went through this.
But, by the way I see rape and consent, this wasn't rape. Because as you say, we should view it in the active sense. "A rapist raped me." Is a man who was intoxicated as you and wants to have sex (but doesn't physically force it out of you) a rapist? It is definitely a regrettable event, but at one point, he was walking away and giving up. Alcohol makes this a terrible gray area. Besides, in situations like this, which drunk person is the rapist? If we automatically determine that the male is the rapist, that's horrible and sexist. In fact, from your post I gather that you don't consider this guy a "rapist," but as an active reader of this blog, you feel like you should consider this incident an assault. I definitely don't think that you are internalizing victim-blaming language. This isn't your fault. This isn't his fault. It's no one's fault. And that's what sucks.
So, by all means, consider the guy a jerk. Try to get past this unpleasant incident. (I've had a very similar one). I don't know if arguing the semantics of the word "rape" or "assault" is the most helpful thing for you.
cunegonde,
I don't know if you are familiar with Pandora's Aquarium, but I have found it to be a very helpful, supportive site for survivors of sexual violence.
Male-on-female sex is the only place in the law where consent is assumed.
Part of the law regarding male on female rape is that the prosecution has to prove that there was no consent. Under sodomy laws (which are used to prosecute male-on-male rape in most states) there is generally no assumption that the sex act was consensual. In cases of other forms of assault, there's no general presumption that it was consensual. If someone has another's property, theft - not consent to have the item - is what is presumed. Consent to certain things may be a DEFENSE in these cases, but then the defendant must prove that consent was given.
Women, however, are presumed by the law to have consented to any sex act they are in, due to the way that laws regarding sexual assault are worded. Moreover, we're expected to have to "fight" for our "virtue" and SAY that we do not want sex, because the perpetrator has to "know" that it was "unwanted" for the sex act to be a crime (again, the rapist is entitled to presume consent unless told otherwise).
This is not the situation in any other area of the law.
I just wanted to throw that out there, in case it impacts how you conceive of your experience.