So today I waged all out feminist/anti-feminist battle on my Facebook wall with a conservative male family acquaintance. He accosted me, well actually, my wall with something inflammatory about Hilary Clinton and the battle commenced. Now, I love a good political debate; they keep the mind sharp and are great for reminding me why I am a feminist and that there is still much work to be done. However, I was provoked, so I let him have it.
Well, of course said instigator soon began playing the abortion card (like any good conservative, right?), which I ignored for a couple of posts. I figure these discussions are usually completely futile and the arguments so irrational, it’s not worth my time. But he pushed. So I pushed back. But it took me a minute.
See the anti-choice movement is pretty much in agreement on the platform: fetuses are babies, we shouldn’t kill babies, we need to protect chubby, innocent babies from rabid feminist women who would like to eat their young along with everyone else’s. Good thing those of us on the other side, those of us who are pro-choice are now the majority (so says the polls), but the whole idea of ‘pro-choice’ is so incredibly vague.
I know what pro-choice means to me, but my question is: what does this mean to you? What are the fundamental principles of Pro-Choicedom? Are there principles that we all can and should abide by? Do we need a unified front that runs deeper than “pro-choice” in order to present a unified movement? Or is ‘choice’ in and of itself enough?
As a graduate of a Gender Studies program I’ve been over many a pro-choice feminist philosophy (clumsily: the politics of motherhood and the ethic of care, patriarchy and women’s right to bodily integrity, women’s right to autonomy, etc…), but when it really comes down to it (the root of the matter, that is), why are we pro-choice? What are the tenants upon which we stand? I feel like we have taken our position for granted and have perhaps forgotten why we do and believe the things we do - at least, we have ceased talking about it. So I'd love to hear from you - the questions i've posed are not meant to be rhetorical.
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As a former volunteer at Planned Parenthood and a documenter of the protests and attacks by anti-choicers, I feel that "choice" is the optimum word. The point is that no one has the right to mess with your body except you, hopefully with the help of a doctor. The anti-choicers represent a thought process that suggests that women are vessels for more innocent beings to feed off of. Women are sinful for having sex but babies are innocent.
I think as long as we agree on the right to choose any option in the reproductive arsenal from adoption to surrogacy to contraception to abortion, we are a unified movement because we're less judgmental and controlling than the anti-choicers.
I'm pro-choice because I don't consider being a homo sapiens and being a person to be synonymous. This has led to the occasional odd discussion, because I also wouldn't have a problem with allowing euthanasia of very young babies, and the "but it's a baby!" argument comes up a lot from anti-choicers.
To me, pro-choice means pro-womens rights. To me, pro-choice is pro-family, pro-woman, pro-bodily autonomy, and much more pro-life than the anti-choice movement will ever be. To me, being pro-choice means that I will never judge a woman based on her choice. It means that I am just as pro-abortion as I am pro-parenting, pro-breastfeeding, pro-adoption, pro-childfree, etc. It means that I know that it's not my place to tell a woman that her choice was "wrong" or "selfish", and that the only person fit to make that decision is the woman herself.
Sometimes, I'm disappointed with the pro-choice movement. Sometimes it feels like we're running out of activists, and that people will only stand up for their rights when they're gone. However, more often than not, I have faith that America will eventually become a country in which abortion is not a naughty word. I hope that it'll become a country in which people acknowledge that abortion is recognized as an inalienable human right.
And I sure hope that I live long enough to see it!
I always liked the term pro-choice. The right to do what you want to and with your own body is a human right, and I would stand up for men's rights to choose if, say, people were trying to make vasectomies illegal or something. There's nothing near as controversial as "baby-killin'" so yeah. But the principle stands. It's is my body. I choose what is best for it because, hey, you don't know shit about me to be honest. And that is your body. You can choose what is best for it because I don't know shit about you and I trust that you are capable enough to make responsible decisions about your life.
And I feel pro-choice does not just cover the right to abortion, it covers the right for a woman to decide how she wants to give birth, what type of birth control she wants, if she even wants to use birth control, if she wants to have sex, the right to even WANT to have sex in the first place, etc.
We have to be pro-choice about what to do with our bodies. Being pro-abortion is great and all that, I am fully supportive of the woman's right to choose abortion and for that to be her choice (it would probably be my choice if I heaven-forbid I ever got pregnant), but there are so many other issues dealing with woman's bodies that we can't forget.
I can't remember exactly, but I heard a story about a woman having her baby taken away from her after labor because she refused to have a C-section, which the doctor suggested. The baby was fine, the mother was fine, but she was deemed unfit as a mom because she CHOSE to not have a c-section. At home deliveries with midwives are even being attacked, and deciding to give birth outside of a hospital is definitely looked down upon by many people. Rightwingers are STILL going on about birth control. And the recent debate about the Plan B pill being sold over the counter.
It goes on and on. To me being pro-choice is not JUST about abortion. Abortion is a big part, but we cannot stop with just abortions. If we as women are expected to be the big caretakers of children by society, then why does society feel we cannot be trusted with the basic choices of when and how to give birth to a life? We are free to sit at home for 18 some-odd years and be the sole caretaker of our children while our "husband" works to being home the bacon (or if there isn't a husband/significant other then we are expected to be super mom AND work full time), but before that baby pops out we cannot be trusted with any responsibility? Give me a break, people. I am fully capable of deciding what my body needs, what I need, and what is best for any child that I may or may not bring into this world.
In a nutshell, taking the "choice" out of "pro-choice" would change the whole dialogue, since every person, man or woman, has the right to choose what happens to their bodies. To me it is never JUST a debate about abortion, but about any woman's (or man's) right to choose what to do with her reproductive powers. :)
I'm starting to become very frustrated with the way pro-choicers argue pro-choice. There seems to be a very basic misunderstanding that pro-choicers have when it comes to how pro-lifers see themselves and their stance:
MOST PRO-LIFERS DO NOT WANT TO TAKE AWAY CHOICE, THEY WANT TO SAVE LIVES.
It may seem like a subtle nuance, but it's a big difference.
I'm not talking about the crazy minority who are pro-life AND anti-birth control, I'm only talking about the people who don't like abortion. They don't dislike abortion because it's a woman who has them, or because they are against a woman having control of her body, it's because they honestly believe that a fetus is a human being. They believe that even if an embryo or small fetus doesn't look human, doesn't have all the body structure of a human yet, that it someday WILL. That fetus, to them, is a potential person who deserves life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They believe that no one deserves to take away a person's right to live.
A recent poll showed that over 70% of Americans actually believe abortion should be legal in at least some circumstances. But I bet the number of Americans who identify as "pro-choice" is actually much smaller.
The reason for that discrepancy is that nuance. Pro-choicers, in general, like to think that this is an anti-woman issue. It's not. In most circumstances, it's not. And if we keep arguing like that, we're never going to get through. Those who identify as pro-life will never understand our position if we keep accusing them of misogyny because that is not where they're coming from.
It is unfair to call them anti-choicers. That is not what they are - they are pro-life.
Technically, we're pro-life, too. It's just that our definition of a "right to life" is more expansive than merely the right to exist. Pro-lifers believe the fetus has a right to exist, to live, to be born. Pro-choicers believe a human, a person, a woman, has the right to live, to exist, however she wishes and that the body has an innate connection to life and existence that no other creature has the right to use or occupy. We see the fetus as having the privilege of using a woman's body to survive at the choice and whim of the woman, but that the fetus has no right to use another person's body, just like no fully-formed human has the right to use another person's body.
To conclude my rant, it is this understanding that pro-choicers need to find in order to properly argue their position. We've been arguing by using strawman arguments for too long.
Let's face this head-on.
That's the best pro-choice argument I've ever heard. (The right to live vs. the right to a non-shitty life.) Thanks for this.
I've been trying to say that to people for a long time, and I'm really glad someone else is pointing it out as well. Like, astoundingly happy.
If I may piggyback onto your post: I mostly know pro-choice people. The key thing about them is that they are all pro-choice. No one's walking around saying, "Man, abortions are awesome!" It's the choice to have one if needed that they believe in.
The problem, related to what you said, is that they don't view the pro-life side properly. But while you're absolutely right that most people are literally pro-life, there is an actual split on that side of things between pro-life people and anti-choice/anti-birth control types. It's not simply that many pro-choice people are looking at the majority of their opponents incorrectly, it's also that they're not acknowledging there are two different groups of people who need to be addressed/fought/mocked/etc., and they require different tactics.
It's not that the whole pro-choice side is missing one boat or the other. It's that it seems like the great majority of individuals view the opposition as being one way instead of both, and thus not that many are actually fighting the fight as it needs to be fought. If we could always run around in teams, it might not matter; but we can't, and thus we all need to see the full scope of who we're up against.
I agree that there is more than one "sect" (for lack of a better word - it's late for me) in the pro-life camp. Maybe I'm being a Debbie Downer, but I have the feeling that those who are anti-choice/anti-bc are lost causes. I can understand the sentiment behind the pro-life stance, but I don't understand the anti-bc stance. If I were to get into an argument with someone like that, I don't know how I would be able to convince them of anything because I don't really understand where they're coming from.
"We see the fetus as having the privilege of using a woman's body to survive at the choice and whim of the woman, but that the fetus has no right to use another person's body, just like no fully-formed human has the right to use another person's body."
I really like how you put this. Thank you.
You're the first person I've heard talk about this issue like an adult in years, if not ever.
I recently drew some stalker/hate behavior myself any time a women does something that could halt our backward slid in society there is at least usually two or three tag teamers ready to lobotomies us and leave big black eyes. Be prepared it never stops but there is strength in numbers especially since the “other side” always uses the gang assault/racketeering method. And it seems to work for them. So let us know where we can find your web page so we can help defend you.
At any rate the issue is about controlling women period. As the spouse of the man who killed that Kansas doctor said: “He wouldn’t even pay me child support it had nothing to do with saving lives”. Men can carry guns in war and most right wingers believe in shoot to kill if someone enters their home but few are out there taking in the “unwanted” it’s just putting women back in bondage.
I also recommend against asking a near violent right wing ant choice person to share your stage through that smile they mean what they say and don’t care if it’s you who ends up dying in child birth either .And they will find your post. Any way and tell their co conspirators as well.