I've been job hunting for months. I've applied at hundreds and hundreds of places, online and in person.
I've only had 4 interviews in my entire job search.
Not one of them hired me. The last job I interviewed for was a new In-n-Out Burger close to my house. 4,000 people applied for only 40 positions. (I live in San Bernadino county, one of the most recession prone areas in the U.S.)
There was a new strip club opening this weekend that was hiring for (fully clothed) waitresses, and so I applied. I got an on-the-spot interview and was hired the next day.
I was happy, but it was a bittersweet happiness. I texted my sisters, who know very well how hard I've been trying to get a job. They told me they were okay with it, but afraid for my safety and that I was supporting the very thing I fight against daily.
They told me that I was willing to put aside my morals 'for a quick buck.' And that I am supporting the idea that women are sex objects.
But beggars can't be choosers, right?
Regardless of what my family thinks, I'm still the one that's trying to make money to pay for my own college text books. My own money to pay for my own food for once. I'm 21 years old and cannot afford to buy new clothes for myself.
But now I feel conflicted on whether I should start the job or decline the offer.I agree with my family but I'm also not willing to go jobless for another two years.
Thoughts?
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I say take it. Live to fight another day, you know?
And maybe this job is more openly chauvinistic, but there would have probably been sexism in every other job you applied for. That's the whole problem with sexism - it abounds.
We all have ideals here, but we have to be realistic. Would it really be better to drop out of school or stop eating that to be a fully clothed waitress at a strip club? Probably not. So don't cut yourself off at the knees before you've barely gotten started running.
Morals are only as valuable as the hardships you will endure to live by them.
The question is, how important to you is campaigning against the sexism of strip clubs? Is it worth going longer without work?
In order to comment I need more information. Why specifically are you thinking about not taking this job? When you say this is "supporting the very thing [you] fight against daily," what exactly do you mean? Are you crystal clear in your own mind what your exact reasons are for not wanting this job? Is it vague discomfort with the idea, or do you have specific objections?
I have been dealing with the same problem. While I think I have a good job come November, I have an abscessed tooth that is seriously dangerous right NOW that I need to make $1500 to treat. Saying "Morals are only as valuable as the hardships you will endure to live by them" is all well and good, but in the case of economic self-sufficiency, this can go both ways.
Are you willing to go "stealth" for a while into a patriarchal form of employment, to support your own long-term well-being? I have to disagree with kandela and say that actually, in this society -- being an autonomous, self-sufficient woman by any means necessary is its own form of activism. If this is your only option, and if you think you can handle the misogyny without being too emotionally worn down by it, I think you should do what you have to do.
Just remember that it is not a permanent choice, that you are bigger than your job, and that you have more to offer the world than working in a strip club might make you think.
PS. When I say that I've been dealing with the same problem, I mean that I've finally admitted that dolling myself up and applying for jobs as a cocktail waitress is probably the only way I am going to be able to fund my emergency dental procedure.
Here's what I think: If you can put up with the sexism there, take the job.
If you are fighting against sexism in strip clubs, you can use the opportunity of working there to build your argument. Gloria Steinem worked at a playboy restaurant as a bunny waitress to report the conditions that the women worked in.
Pull a Steinem and observe the behavior and then write us about it!
You're not supporting anything. Someone's going to serve the drinks and make out like a bandit in the process. Might as well be you. If that's not good enough, give 5% of what you make to charity so you know more good is coming of that money than would be the case if someone else had the job.
At minimum, do it until you can't stand it anymore. But if you can go in with an open mind towards the people you meet rather than mentally cast the shadow of what's negative about strip clubs over them all right off the bat, you might end up learning a lot and feel like it was not just tolerable, but a good experience to have had.
Yeah, because you can justify anything you want so long as you give to charity: http://community.feministing.com/2009/09/steve-crows-a-marvel.html
Are you seriously comparing a guy who runs a porn company to a woman working in a strip club as a job of last resort?
In this instance not explicitly, no. What I am pointing out is a tendency amonst people to try and alleviate guilt from doing one thing by giving to charity.
I find the whole idea rediculous.
It doesn't work that way. You can't say, 'I know doing X is bad, so I'll give more to Y, that'll make up for it.' It's much better to simply not do X.
We know objectifying and sexualising women is bad. So, don't do it.
I'm kinda thinking that this is a prank post, right?
Considering all of the hell that you ladies raise about respecting women doesn't it seem just a bit inconsistent for anyone, but particularly other chicks on this blog to validate what Sarah is saying here?
Maybe most of you have never been in a real strip club. Let me tune you into how it actually works. They recruit girls into hostess and waitress jobs, after all what self respectful young lady would take off her clothes for money, right? So, these girls justify it by saying that they are going to "just" be a waitress. After they've worked a few weeks they observe that girls much less comely than them are making $500 + a night for waving their buts in front of goofy dudes with excess cash. It's not much of a logical or financial leap to "ease" into dancing.
So that's how it happens. Please don't kid yourselves. I know there are all kinds of "urban myths" about young ladies that have stripped to put themselves through college and their MBA courses and now they're making $150K per year. Trust me. It rarely happens. That said, if it has happened that bright young lady should post up on here on Feministing. Maybe there is a career path there somewhere.
For those of you that are impressed with the Gloria Steinem approach, do any of you think the dudes that were around when she was waving her ass around were impressed? I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings here, but frankly most guys that go to strip clubs pretty much think it's a joke. They get their buzz on before they show up to avoid the $10 drinks and they have contests to see what goofy things they can get the dancers to do for a buck. So any lady that's telling you they outsmarting these dudes needs a reality check.
In any case, it sounds like Sarah is a nice person. I wouldn't recommend getting started down this road. If I ever have a daughter I'd do anything that I could to keep her from this.
So your main objection is that there is a possibility that Sarah might decide, of her own free will, that she would rather be a stripper?
From this post, that seems pretty unlikely. And even if she did, would that be so bad?
A job is a job is a job. If Sarah is comfortable working in that environment -- or, is at least willing to put up with it until she finds something better -- there's nothing wrong with her taking the job. It could give her insight into a subject that feminists love to argue about.
I'm a dominatrix, and I'm a college student at a good university. I have several coworkers who are grad students in various fields. So no, sex workers in school is not terribly uncommon.
And if you're taking that much of a guy's money, it doesn't matter if he thinks he's better than you. You're still winning.
I guess in this context I can't agree that a job is a job is a job. It's certainly her life and I imagine she'll live it as she pleases. If she is strong enough personally that by doing this type of thing it won't screw up how she feels about herself then I'm fine with it. I think a lot of people are kidding themselves when they say it doesn't bother them. That whole rationalization thing, ya know...
Personally I think there is a huge difference between a job to get the bills paid and taking off your clothes and shaking your equipment in front of people you don't know for a few bucks.
Frankly, I feel bad for anyone who is working in this line of work, no matter how well educated or how much of whatever they can buy because it's a cash, non-taxable business. Frankly I think a tax ends up getting paid, it just isn't in money and it just isn't at the time it's going on.
You don't have the right to tell an entire group of women that we're "just kidding ourselves" because you don't agree with what we do. Why on Earth do you think you know what's going on in a sex worker's head better than she does?
And you don't have the right to judge someone for taking a job like this when money is so tight. (Unless of course you can find Sarah a better job/pay all her bills until the economy recovers?)
You are condescending and you seriously need to check your privilege.
I'm not assuming we live in a perfect world. In a perfect world we wouldn't need morals - the easiest thing to do would be the right thing.
Sorry, that's in the wrong spot.
It's all about choices and a person's ability to live with the consequences. That's it. I'm not judging anyone here. I'm sharing my experience and I have plenty of it.
My experience is that for the few bucks that someone is going to get for allowing themselves to be dropped into that environment it isn't worth it. Period. Now if a person thinks that hanging out with idiots and losers is somehow an opportunity for personal growth I'm going to have problems arguing.
I challenge anyone on this blog to connect the community with a woman that has been active in this world for 10 or more years of her first forty years of life that will truthfully take the position that it has made her life experience on this earth better.
Finally, it isn't about privilege. It's actually about giving a shit about the original poster and her future. So spare me the lecture.
If this honestly isn't about privilege, and you "give a shit" about the OP and her future, then maybe you should STOP PASSING JUDGMENTS ON SEX WORKERS WHOM YOU HAVE NEVER MET AND WHOSE LIVES YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. Just maybe?
Existentially, according to de Bouvier, Sarah is loosing out big-time...
(not that I disagree, but I didn't read Sarte and de Bovier so I could not pretentiously drop it into conversations).
Steinem, dressed up as a Playboy bunny at the mansion and letr wrote about it for an article. It was innovative. Exposing the whole raunchy, objectifying element was the whole point she acted as a Bunny. I dont think you know the story. Even if the guys are just doing it as a joke it still says something about objectification and women. Also, I dont think all or even that many guys do it 'just for a joke.'
Anyone else have issue with being called 'chick?'
I like how you're assuming you know everything about strip clubs. I'm telling you right now that you don't. You're also making all kinds of assumptions about feminists, especially the feministing community. Most of us have never been in a 'real' strip club? So, we've just been to fake strip clubs? 'kay. I'll remember that.
Not us 'chicks.'
LOL, so corny.
Let me know when you want to compare your real world experience in strip clubs with mine. I'll rock that deal.
i'm not a fan of women being referred to as "ladies" but "CHICKS"?! uhhhh, thanks.
this post obviously isn't a prank and suggesting it is one is dismissive, at the least. people don't need to make $150K a year to be happy or successful, and from the sound of it the OP needs to make enough money to get buy as a student. and "nice" women can't strip?
that being said i kind of get what you mean by "how it actually works" because, yes, men in charge can and do manipulate young women. but that doesn't mean that a woman can't make the choice to do something, like strip, on their own. still, i totally disagree with your comment.
Your choice for sure not to agree. Frankly I'm not going to sit here and describe the kind of woman that strips. If you were exposed to a representative sampling of the women that are actively involved in this gig over time you would better understand what I'm trying to say.
That said, I'm 100% open to hearing success stories about how great women's lives have become after they got involved in this scam. Please feel free to share the success stories.
Check your fucking privilege.
Until you've applied for jobs and are turned down, and having to decide how to survive on your own, you have no room to criticize her for the decisions she makes.
People like you get off on telling people about the exploitative nature of this and that, thinking that somehow, it makes you better feminists. It doesn't. My guess is that Sarah knows about these things already, and is making an informed decision, based on her own needs.
So, get off your high horse, because until you're the one providing economic stability for her, you really have no rights to criticize her choices.
Taking off one's clothes or starving to death - I think the choice is pretty clear.
Your values are your own and no one else's. If you're looking for someone to blame, blame sexism, not women who have made decisions about what's best for them.
You need to relax. Giving me shit doesn't work. While I will admit I don't have a lot of experience getting turned down for jobs it really doesn't matter. What matters is does a person have ANY kind of idea of what kind of life they want to live and what are the compromises they are willing to make? It's kind of like anything in life. Every day we have opportunities to make compromises. Either we do or we don't.
That said, if our friend Sarah has the discipline, self control and confidence to not migrate into a stripper for more cash and not let it screw with her head I'd say let it rip.
Finally, I'm not getting the impression that she is starving and at death's door. She's just looking for some informed input.
I'd rather give her something that is useful for her life going forward. But feel free to take the easy solution.
As long as we're on the subject, I'll put my money where my mouth is. I'll match any verifiable Feministing poster's donations to Sarah up to $250. So, for you non-math majors, if you guys will come up with $250, I'll pitch another $250 for her. That's 500 bucks, not chump change. If it keeps her out of the strip business I'm there. We can leave it up to the Administrators to work out the details. They have my email address.
Let's see if all of you folks will put your money where your collective mouths are.
You know, it's not okay to offer women money just to not do something you do not approve of. It's called using your financial power to silence them.
I'll leave it up to Sarah, but if she's up to it, you're on. I'll happily put up the $250 just to see you have to reach into your pocket and do something that you obviously do not you'd have to do because you think we lack the instestinal fortitude to back our beliefs up with our actions.
I really need a lecture from you. If I'm willing to do it support her in keeping away from something that sucks and will most likely have a negative impact on her life I think it's kinda my option, so stick it where ever is convenient.
If you have the balls it takes to step up and pay the $250 good for you. Maybe you don't get it, but that was the point of my offer. I'm was just looking for one of you to put their money where their extra large mouths are. It's a simple deal. I'm not looking for thanks. You don't scare me, you don't intimidate me, I don't think you're smart, but at least you're willing to cut a check to actually do something instead of pop off about it.
As I've already said, I expect that the Feministing Admins can facilitate. If you think for one minute that I was bullshitting on this deal you are seriously mistaken.
First off, fuck you.
Secondly, you have no clue as to what the people in this community have done for women - whether it is volunteer work, money or anything else, the people here have done more than their share, and aren't obligated to actually show you what they're truly doing. So why don't YOU shove it?
As for the deal, I am sending Jessica the check. She'll take a picture of it as proof for you, and once that's done, you send her the check as well, which will both be sent out.
But I am guessing you just got your bluff called. Somewhere, somehow, you're going to find an excuse not to cut that check.
You're a tough guy over the web. I just posted to the blog as to how the deal is going to work. Trust me when I say that it won't happen on a personal check from you. Maybe you don't normally do deals, but checks kinda don't fly.
Put on your Big Boy Pants, break out your credit or debit card and get the money wired to Aletheia immediately as I describe in the post. I don't know if Sarah is still interested, but I'll send her a note tonight to confirm or not. If she is, I'm in. If you knew me personally you wouldn't be trying me on. In your case ignorance truly is bliss.
I don't know you, I certainly don't like you and I damn sure am not going to do anything with you relating to money unless I am 100% sure it is cash, period. So save your bullshit drama for your kindred spirits.
That's the deal. If you ever get to LA let me know, we'll do lunch. Go back to your knitting. Pussy.
You get that it's probably not a good idea, nor does it reflect your intellect, to be calling someone a "pussy" and telling them to "go back to knitting" on a feminist site, right? I guess not, though, because you're not very smart.
I already sent her the check, as I don't need to follow your directions or guidance, or prove anything to you otherwise. Besides, I doubt any feminist would want money from an asshole like you, anyway.
I am in the process of getting commenters on this site to donate, so, yeah, we can take care of our own without having you getting involved.
Take your money and go fuck yourself.
TO ORIGINAL POSTER SARAH,
Hey - just want to confirm that the offered $500 will help you in your efforts as noted. Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen any responses from you since the original post.
As you can see from this string, people are prepared to step up to help you.
Finally, I have a friend that is going to be investing in some new franchise restaurants in the San Bernardino area before the end of 2009, so if you don't land a job prior then you should let me know. Maybe I can help you land.
Please confirm this makes sense for you and it's a done deal. I've already gone on record but I hope you don't have to accept that position. In any case, good luck, take care and please respond so we can move forward.
Hi, PepXC. I encourage you to read my response to Kandela below, as well, and get back to me if you have any ideas for resources that are available to me to help me fund my emergency dental procedure, which will cost $2,500. You could even make a donation if you are really that concerned about the well-being of women like me.
Lest there is any confusion, I know I said in my first comment that it would cost me $1500 to treat, but that was before I learned that I need to pay off $1000 to a previous dentist for an earlier procedure before their offices can release the necessary information to my current dentist.
Hey Althea,
A few things. It's interesting to me that in spite of the fact that I'm the one that everyone is tossing rocks at on on this string you work me for some bucks. Be that as it may, I'm on board to this extent.
If you have a infected tooth you need to either get it dealt with or pulled, immediately. You are correct that it may kill you if you don't deal with it. Getting a tooth pulled isn't that expensive. Getting a root canal, cap or bridge is expensive, which I assume is represented in the $2500.
So, if you life is at risk you need to have the infected tooth pulled YESTERDAY. All of this said, similar to what I indicated in my response to my foul mouthed friend Marc, I'll give you up to $250 on a dollar for dollar match to donations from other Feministing posters. If successful that $500 will get you a down payment on the work you need with any reasonable dentist. The Administrators can track it. They have my contact information. This is on the administrators, not me. I'm happy to cut the check with reasonable controls in place.
Marc and other Feministing Elitists - If you observe what just happened, I actually did something to make a positive difference. Maybe you and your friends should follow. Crack open your check book and save your animosity for someone willing to take it, because I won't.
My check is cut and will be sent to Feministing as soon as I get a response from them. Now, where's your end of the bargain?
I tell you what - neither I nor anyone else on this board need a lecture in charity from you, because we're all busting our asses working and giving to various organizations. So, spare me the high-and-mighty lecture.
In addition to money, we're also actually dedicating our lives to working for women. What the hell have you done?
Obvs I can't give out the OP's personal info if she does indeed want donations from PepXC and Marc. But if Sarah would like to weigh in, I'm happy to act as intermediary.
Just a note, PepXC, please think carefully when you choose words to describe women - as you can see, several community members take issue with being called 'chicks'. Thanks.
Wow. I certainly didn't expect this to happen.
Well, if Marc and PepXC are prepared to follow through on their offers, then yes, $500 comes to *exactly* the amount I would need for a down payment on the re-treatment procedure I will need to keep the infected tooth from becoming life-threatening.
I spoke with my dentist yesterday, and she said I needed to get this treated within the month or it will become serious.
So, Jessica Valenti, consider this my permission to release any personal information they need from me, because until I get a job I need all the help I can get.
Thanks.
Jessica / Feministing Staff & Alethia,
Here is my approach on the payment to Alethia. If it happens with Marc this will work. Could use the same approach with Sarah if that ends up happening.
**********************************
Alethia,
It appears that Marc has committed the first $250.00 which is good. I'm prepared to get the the other $250.00 after you confirm his initial funds.
I don't know if you are "banked" or not, but I suggest you try to arrange a wire transfer from Marc as it will be quicker and easier to confirm so I can the send the second $250.00. I don't consider a personal check to be good funds until it clears the bank, so if a personal check is involved it will slow this deal down.
So...I suggest that Marc do something like a money transfer via Western Union or MoneyGram. I'll accept your confirmation of receipt of Marc's $250.00 if you have a receipt number from one of these vendors or their equivalent.
After his transfer is confirmed I can get you my $250.00 via Western Union Online within a day.
In order to send you the money I'll need your First Name, Last Name, City & State. Obviously you'll need to be able to prove this up when you pick up the money. I know there are privacy concerns, but frankly if I was a psycho, crazy, murderer type guy I doubt I'd be working this hard to give you money. But it's up to you.
In any case, let me know and good luck with your teeth. Not something to screw around with. I'd really hate to hear that you ended up dead because of this.
My email is pepper5171@gmail.com. Good Luck.
Jessica / Feministing Staff / Marc / Sarah - here's how it needs to work. Just so you clearly understand...a personal check from Marc isn't good funds until it becomes CASH that Aletheia can spend to get her teeth fixed. She doesn't need to be sitting around for two weeks hoping to have good funds. Remember her teeth are infected. Something needs to happen now.
******************************
Aletheia,
It appears that Marc has committed the first $250.00 which is good. I'm prepared to get the the other $250.00 after you confirm his initial funds.
I don't know if you are "banked" or not, but I suggest you try to arrange a wire transfer from Marc as it will be quicker and easier to confirm so I can the send the second $250.00. I don't consider a personal check to be good funds until it clears the bank, so if a personal check is involved it will slow this deal down.
So...I suggest that Marc do something like a money transfer via Western Union or MoneyGram. I'll accept your confirmation of receipt of Marc's $250.00 if you have a receipt number from one of these vendors or their equivalent.
After his transfer is confirmed I can get you my $250.00 via Western Union Online as soon as Marc's is confirmed via email to me.
In order to send you the money I'll need your First Name, Last Name, City & State. Obviously you'll need to be able to prove this up when you pick up the money. I know there are privacy concerns, but frankly if I was a psycho, crazy, murderer type guy I doubt I'd be working this hard to give you money. But it's up to you.
In any case, let me know and good luck with your teeth. Not something to screw around with. I'd really hate to hear that you ended up dead because of this.
My email is pepper5171@gmail.com. Good Luck.
I don't need a lecture from you either. What I need is a reasonable way to confirm that Marc has paid his $250 in real American Greenbacks to a confirmable source for Alethia. Once that happens I'm all over this deal. The ball is in Marc and Feministing's court. Please advise. I'll make this happen immediately once you have done your part.
Actually it kinda sounds like you did need a lecture in charity from me because until I offered to step up and stroke a check to both of these women no one on this blog was saying anything about financially helping them in a way that would improve their lives RIGHT NOW. Although it does seem like everyone here has a theoretical BS opinion as to what these women should do.
The idea would be to get Alethia (sp) some bucks to fix her teeth before she is terminal. There is always a chance she is stroking us and the blog, but I'll take a $250 bet on that deal. In any case, save your sanctimonious bull shit for someone that is buying it, because I'm not.
Spare me the privilege argument. It's kinda more about working your ass off and being in a position to help others when they need it. Maybe more people should try it.
I never said I was a Feminist, because I'm not. I've been banned from this site before for trying to share reasonable positions.
It is pretty intriguing to me that it takes a non-feminist like me to be the first to step up to help women on this site that clearly need help. If nothing else I'd hope this will make you people think a bit. That said, I'm sure you're members will come up with all kind of reasons that I'm an asshole. What a surprise.
The Feministing Admins have my email. I'll step up after confirming that you do. Let's Rock. Fulfill your promise as I guarantee I will.
I suggest finding a community clinic or dentistry school. They can do a check up, take x-rays and do whatever procedures you need for far less than paying off your old dentist.
Hi RES,
Thanks for the thought. I have indeed contacted all dental academies in the tri-county area. They are only willing to offer reduced-rate preventative care, unfortunately.
Thanks again.
A
Your tone comes across as very condescending. If you want to convey your opinions, do so in a respectable way, Narcissus. Otherwise there's always the "Report Abuse" button for us "CHICKS" to press.
Feel free to hit the abuse button, but before you do I suggest you review this string to see who is actually giving posters that need help any real world solutions. That would be me.
So save your sanctimonious BS for someone else and open up your check book to Sarah, Althea or both. If not STFU.
Also, you folks might want to solicit Rachel and Andrew for contributions. People that can afford to go to Rutgers and Harvard respectively should easily be able to afford to help some posters like these that are in need. Point being, actions speak a bit louder than rhetoric BS.
Now some of you people understand what I'm doing here. It's certainly a win / win for me. Since I think most of you are full of it and not willing to financially help either Sarah or Atheia these offers probably won't cost me any money since I doubt you will step up with the money. That said, if you do even better, as I'd love to help these women, but I'm not doing jack until I confirm this "community" is willing to do the same.
In case you haven't noticed, I don't handle threats well.
Screw Up. Should be Jessica and Andrew. Different Blog. Different PIA.
You also get that you've got the financial means to do this challenge, and I the financial means to meet your challenge to shut you the hell up, but others might not, right?
Privilege. Get it? Keep in mind that just because you're willing to put your money where your mouth is doesn't make you feminist at all. You've got to treat people with respect. You clearly haven't done that.
Now, fork over your money, since my check is already signed and sealed, and waiting for an address.
Time to put up or shut up. I've already said what I would do if other feministing bloggers will do their part. Nothing has changed.
Also, you folks might want to solicit Rachel and Andrew for contributions. People that can afford to go to Rutgers and Harvard respectively should easily be able to afford to help some posters like these that are in need. Point being, actions speak a bit louder than rhetoric BS.
Okay, everything else aside (even name mistakes)...this is so insulting.
One - what in the world does my partner have to do with Feministing? This site is run by myself and a group of other feminists, not our significant others.
Two - I can easily afford to give money away because I went to Rutgers? Really? Because I was under the impression that I was tens of thousands in debt from taking out loans so I could go to grad school, after working through state school as an undergrad at the goddamn Crossgates mall every day. But if you know something about my financial situation that I don't - please do tell!
Yep, my bad on the name thing, but I've already corrected.
Insulting? I'm trying to understand why you think it is insulting. When you get married it's kinda a package deal. Maybe you didn't share with your members that you're marrying a wealthy California kid from a long established California family. I probably missed that post.
I think your future husband's social agenda is pretty much out there for everyone to view on the web and is pretty consistent with Feministing's view of the world. I'd welcome to hear about any deep philosophical conflicts. I'm not criticizing you collective perspective, but it would be cool if you at least stepped up to it.
I've always felt everyone should marry into whatever social strata worked for them, but I'm doubting that your Women's Studies MBA debt will survive very long after the nuptials. If it does, great. It would be a total girl power thing to pay it off yourself.
In any case, it doesn't matter, for the purposes of this discussion I'm trying to figure out why it would be such a "martyr deal" to help these women. I don't see it as being a big deal to step up to a couple hundred dollars to support some of your members in need. No matter if you have college debt or not.
Memo - most of us had to work during college.
But that's probably just me...
Wow, what a presumptuous (not to mention creepy - what are you stalking my partner?) person you are! Not only are you totally off base about who I'm with, but it's also - you know - none of your fucking business.
Aside from the stripping that others will be doing, is there anything about your new employer's practice that you object to?
Go ahead and start the job. If your job starts to make you uncomfortable (customers make inappropriate comments and your manager doesn't care), then go ahead and quit. But you might as well go ahead and start earning some money.
After she gets hired she should just come to work wearing a huge hunchback and try to come onto all the guys! Wear skunk scent, play some pranks, ect. Thats what I would do.
Oh, brilliant. So, it's ok to have a job in an exploitative industry so long as you do it badly? That's really going to help her future employment prospects when she gets fired isn't it.
A job isn't just a job. The job you have says something about you. It's the answer to the first question anybody asks when they first meet you.
When you take a job you've been offered you have an obligation to your employer to, if not do your best, then at least make a good effort to perform it well. If you can't justify doing a good job then you shouldn't take that employment. Otherwise you're letting down the person who put their trust in you by hiring you.
There's no middle road here people. If you work in an industry then you are manifestly supporting that industry. If you take payment from it then you are living off the proceeds of that industry.
Why do you think it was that she easily got this job when she found it so hard to get others? Maybe, it was becasue fewer applied for this one because they couldn't stomach supporting the industry. Maybe it was because the guy hiring was looking for 'a certain type of girl' instead of someone with qualifications. Either way taking the job seems like a poor option.
Imagine the strip club didn't exist (Great!). Now, since it doesn't exist you didn't get offered a job there. What would you do now? I suggest doing whatever was the answer to that question.
Kandela --
I ask this question not rhetorically, but because I am really curious.
I am a philosophy student who studies political philosophy. I began attending college at age fifteen and plan to dedicate the rest of my life to working for women's rights.
I also happen to come from a working-class family. Because of my financial and health problems I have had to stop attending school. I have applied for -- count them -- HUNDREDS of jobs, and even the temp agencies have turned me down.
However, I know people at local bars (some of them including places like Hooters) who have suggested that I would be able to make money as a cocktail waitress.
I also happen to have, because of my lack of health insurance, an abscessed tooth.
Prior to the advent of modern dentistry, abscessed teeth were the number one leading cause of death in the United States. When medical science learned how to treat them, the average person's life expectancy doubled.
Imagine a world -- because this world DOES exist -- in which, at points, someone's only option for employment is something you consider morally questionable. Great, because THAT is the world we live in.
What is your advice in that case? Shall I be a dental martyr to your feminist cause and pass away quietly? Let me know.
Respectfully,
Alexandria Brown
PS. Just so we're transparent, my current net worth is $6.36. That would be six dollars and thirty-six cents. I can send you a printout of my bank statement if you like.
My bank account read $1.48 at one point. At that point I badly needed to replace the orthotics in my shoes. I didn't because it was too expensive and the result was I couldn't run. As a champion cross-country runner at school this was rather distressing. Only now, 2 years later am I able to begin treating the tendon strain injuries I am carrying. I'm not completely unable to understand where you are coming from.
What I did at the time was ask for help. I stayed with my brother until I could get a suitable job and earn some more money. In return I helped him out repainting the house. To me I think it is far better to ask for help, from friends or family, than it is to compromise on the things we believe in. Yes, you will end up owing someone something, if all goes well you'll be able to repay that debt (maybe they'll need help in the future). But you know, we aren't alone in the world, we live in a community, we help each other out from time to time. If you had the means would you help out a friend if they were in your situation? If you answered yes, then chances are you have a friend or two who answered yes as well. I'd say giving them a chance to help is much better than working for the porn industry.
Even with friends and others to help, you're assuming we live in a perfect world. We do not. In a perfect world, a woman can just turn down any job, and can live by her feminist values every step of the way, not having to worry about meeting ends meet, or figuring out a way to pay for college, or where she'll get her next meal.
It's too bad we do not live in that world - and rather than passing judgment, or discussing whether certain career choices are feminist, why don't we instead try to figure out how we can best support women economically, and end poverty, so that women neither have to make these tough choices that we often like to judge them on, or be sexually exploited through human trafficking?
Feminist ideals are great, but there's a reality out there that neither you nor I, because of certain privileges, will ever experience - and ideals are very different than that everyday reality.
I'm not assuming we live in a perfect world. In a perfect world we wouldn't need morals - the easiest thing to do would be the right thing.
I just want you to know, by the way, that it's refreshing to see someone take a stance against sex work (if stripping is considered such) without being rude about it, or telling the OP that she's somehow naive about her feminism.
Though my recent personal experiences dictate that I disagree with you, I do respect your stance on the issue, as well as your overall approach in the discussion.
I appreciate your optimism, Kandela, but as Marc says, we don't live in a perfect world. In two ways our situations differ:
1) Unlike your health problem, my condition is potentially life-threatening, and
2) I have already asked all of my friends, even acquaintances who are millionaires, for personal loans. A few have been able to spare $100 or so, but again, this doesn't add up to the $2500 I need.
And for the record, I am applying for every possible job waitressing and bartending at nicer restaurants before I will think about somewhere like Hooters -- and even then, I don't think I should be considered part of the "porn industry."
I think it is possible for me to use my best/only options for the better if they are a means to an end. And while I do appreciate that you have been respectful, I have to respectfully disagree and say that in life-or-death scenarios, the ends justify the means.
If it really is life or death then I can understand. I mean I can also understand people stealing food to keep from starving as well, and this isn't as bad as that. Certainly the steps you are taking, in terms of looking at more reputable establishments first, seem appropriate. Also, I agree that Hooters isn't exactly the porn industry.
I must say that I'm fortunate enough to live in a country (actually lived in two) where public health cover would prevent you being forced into such a dire situation.
Tangent: I had been wondering why the US public health care debate was getting so much coverage on a feminist forum. Now I see that a public health system creates a better society by helping to prevent people being forced into desperate situations.
Marc: Thanks, I try.
A Voice in the Wilderness. Thank You.
I really think that most of the people advising against this job have never been in a situation where they were TRULY hard up for employment/money. People have done FAR worse things than working in a place where (presumably) no one is being FORCED to do something they don't want to do. OK, strip club culture (a subject on which I'm certainly not an expert, or even well informed)is exploitative -- but if she has been looking for a job and has been unable to find one until now, it shows a privileged perspective to condescend to her for taking it.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. You're the only one who can decide if you need the job more than you need to not work in a strip club.
Congratulations on the job offer! That alone is good news and should be lauded!
When you get down to it, I would guess that most of us end up making compromises or whatever you want to call it out of necessity. Maybe we like to pick on the big ones--What? That feminist is actually associated with a business that overtly objectifies women? Woe is me! But that doesn't mean that other businesses are squeaky clean, like the university department I work for, where female faculty have repeatedly had to fight tooth and nail to get tenure, unlike the men. Maybe the inequality is less visible because nobody's up on a stage, but it's still there, and in a way I'm supporting it by working there too. So are we all only allowed to work in places with perfect records on gender? Is that even possible?
So I wouldn't say that any particular workplace should be 'off-limits' to those of us who are trying to make it in the world without completely losing our principles. You pretty much have to work somewhere, and no place is really perfect. Make some money for your own support and independence--and maybe that'll help you get to a place where you can work doing something that you can believe in.
There's a difference. The core business of the University is eduacation and research. Creating equal working conditions for women within that environment is not incompatible with that.
A strip club on the other hand has as it's core business exploiting the way society sexually objectifies women and doing it for the enjoyment (primarily) of men. Stipping is fundamentally incompatible with feminism, University is not.
If you think you can do it, do it. And I emphasize. I spent May, June and July looking for a job. I don't think I looked as hard as you but I seriously didn't know where else to apply to that I could get to without a car. I moved to where I'm going to school now a month earlier than planned and found a job in three weeks.
I say you take the job. If you were in enough of a financial bind to consider putting in an application there, then you are probably in enough of a financial bind to need the work. You can always quit if it gets too bad, but if you choose not take the job later if you can't find anything else. I would say take the job and then go and keep looking for a better one
Listen, I hear ya. I've out of work now for months and I just can't seem to get anything. I frequently get all of these polite e-mails saying that I'm well-qualified, but then so are the other 800 people who applied for one opening.
If it were me, I'd give it a shot, and if it becomes too stressful or forces you to compromise your own ethical standards, then contemplate quitting. Sadly, none of us get the right to be choosy these days.
Could we please stop responding to the assholes? It's clear that whatever is said in discussion of Sarah's options will only be used to fuel their own ends.
Sarah, I say take the job, get healthy, then decide how much crap you're willing to put up with there. It's hard to be a feminist when you're dead. Good luck.
You mean, you couldn't get a job at McDonald's, or Wal-Mart?!
Wal-Mart did not hire me (and I know this is not about me... but I will get to it) because I was overqualified.
I had my sources inside the store I applied to that said the guy who managed the department I was going to work in told them that I was overqualified when it comes to work history and education... and I used words he did not know.
Also, applications for the whole store went up. They had over 20 applicants for each position. I was way over qualified... and even 'entry' level positions in this economy are going to people with 2-5 years experience.
Lastly, a lot of large organizations downsize through attrition... so many were not even hiring for new positions, they are shrinking the number of employees they have, working less hours, etc.
So yeah, she probably could not get a job at Wal-Mart or McDonalds.