Kanye West, otherwise known as the music industry's biggest douchebag (okay maybe not biggest, but he's gaining momentum), decided to make the VMAs all about himself last night...again. Now, I didn't watch the show, but this morning it's all anyone is talking about. Apparently Mr. West decided that Taylor Swift (who won for Best Female Video) was not worthy of her award. Right in the middle of her acceptance speech her jumped up on stage, grabbed the mic from her hands and said that Beyonce had one of the best videos of all time.
Now, this morning I've read a few articles about this because the incident really irritates me. I can just imagine how annoyed and upset I'd feel if I were Ms. Swift. This was the first VMA she'd ever won. It was a big deal. And he just ruined her moment and basically said she didn't deserve it. I mean, it's fine if you have your opinions, but to interrupt your acceptance speech? That's low.
But I came across this one article that gave me pause. The language the writer, Billy Johnson, Jr., used in part of his article was steeped in paternalism that made me uncomfortable:
"Not only was Kanye's approach disrespectful, it was especially disrespectful because it was directed towards a woman--a teenage girl, actually. Taylor won't turn 20 until December. I can only imagine how her father feels. I'm sure he would like to have a talk to Kanye. I'm not related to her, and I'd like to have a talk with him."
Obviously what Mr. West did was disrespectful, but apparently the author finds it more disrespectful because it was done to a woman. Then he goes on to talk about how she's really just a young girl (a "teenage girl," not just a teenager) and "imagine how her father feels." Why just her father? Why not both her parents? I guess her father is the only one that's really supposed to protect her right? I mean, what's her little old mother to do? But why are her parents supposed to protect her anyway? She's 19 years old and a successful artist. When I read about this disrespectful occurrence (and disrespectful NOT because she's a woman) I wasn't thinking "oh, I feel so bad for her family," I was thinking "oh, I feel so bad for her," because she's the one slighted here. I was angry for her.
No matter what you feel about Taylor Swift's music or Beyonce's (or Kanye's for that matter), what Kanye West did was disrespectful and it wasn't because Taylor Swift is a little girl that needs to be protected by her daddy. It was disrespectful because she is an artist who won an award from the industry and deserves respect, especially while in the middle of her acceptance speech.
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Staged for publicity. The whole thing. I'd bet money on it.
Kanye's egotistical, sure, but this is MTV. They traffick in cheaply manufactured reality.
That was the first thing I thought after I processed that Kanye had just interrupted an acceptance speech.
I would agree if it was someone other than Kanye West. This guy is known for thinking these awards shows are all about him and his opinion. This isn't the first time he's acted like the world and the VMAs revolve around him.
And how would MTV get Kanye to pull this publicity stunt when it clearly makes him look like an ass? That doesn't make sense. In his "apology" he still looks like an ass.
"But how would MTV get Kanye to pull this stunt that makes him look like an ass?"
Dunno, they just do. They did it to Eminem last year w/ the Sacha Baron Cohen ass crack to the face stunt last year. MTV, they got the powa.
First off, that didn't make Eminem look like a jackass. People actually were really impressed with him for that and thought it was hilarious.
Second, this isn't the topic.
THANK YOU, I have been trying to remember what they did the last time, cause I knew they did something.
I'm torn, if it comes out it was staged I wouldn't be surprised.
But regardless, and what I meant to say before but posted too soon, was that was not the point of my post.
The point was to talk about the gendered language surrounding this incident.
I think Taylor and Beyonce both looked a little too stunned for that to be true.
Without knowing a thing about Swift, it's hard to imagine her agreeing to this beforehand.
I had a feeling it was staged too. Even if he makes himself look like an ass, I doubt it will hurt his record sales so thats probubly why he would have done it. Look at michael vick. He ran a dog fighting ring and now hes with the eagles, making millions.
No way, his manager and labels would know it would be career suicide, and they would stand to lose waaaaaaay too much money from it.
MTV might have power, but not enough to convince that many people to give up potential profits nearing millions just for a publicity stunt, not even for 1 million.
Hm. People do a lot of amazingly offensive things and it doesn't seem to hurt their careers ... I think the trick is just don't offend your label.
I think the column by Billy Johnson is probably more of a reflection of the writer's age and possibly having a teenage daughter of his own than it is of sexism. I know I'd be hopping mad myself if it were my daughter on stage and some jackass intruded.
Between this and that asshole congressman heckling Obama I think it's a matter of a number of people being total fucktards and not knowing how to conduct themselves in public.
The fact that Billy Johnson is a father with a teenage daughter doesn't excuse the ageism and sexism inherent in this quote. I'm the same age as Swift, and while I'll admit that I till rely on my parents for money (I'm in college, they pay my tuition), I'd still be offended if someone said that the responsibility to stand up for me landed on my dad's shoulders rather than my own. I can stand up for myself, just as a man my age or a person older than me could. The implication with such a comment is also that the father "owns" the daughter, so it's steeped in patriarchy.
Let's not forget that, while 19-year-olds are "technically" still teenagers, and most of us (myself included, though I can't speak for Swift) don't have it all figured out yet, let's not forget that we're adults in the eyes of the law. It would be one thing if Swift were 15 or 16 (though still offensive), but she can legally vote, run for some elected offices, buy cigarettes, serve in a war, get married, have kids, consent to sex...the list goes on and on. And most relevant here: her parents no longer have any rights to her. It's insulting to suggest that an adult woman, even one who is only in her second year of adulthood, still needs her father to fight her battles for her, rather than handling them herself. Taylor Swift in particular has shown that she's independent and strong for someone her age. Billy Johnson's statement may come from the "right place," but that doesn't mean it's justified.
I apologize for some of the grammar errors here; I was really anxious to get this comment up, and I guess I didn't proofread as well as I should! Sorry!
This. While I missed the VMA's and quite honestly don't listen to any of these people, I do think he was rude to HER. Why does this columnist make it all about how her father feels about it. It's like it doesn't matter that he was rude to her as an individual, it's only important how it might offend another man.
This is, well, nuts. The author is clearly writing from the perspective of a father, is that wrong??? Father's aren't entitled to take an interest in their grown children? What about mothers? My mother calls me 3X, 4X a week because she's concerned & I'm well past 19. Kids may not want their parents' help & may not think they need it, but in the eyes of their parents they will still be kids even into the kids' own senior years.
You may not understand this 'cuz you're just 19 & probably don't have kids. But wait 'til you do (or your friends). This type of thinking misses the forest for the trees.
He's not her father. Just because a man has kids doesn't mean he has the right to feel "protective" towards all women under the age of 21.
Does Feministing have the right to feel "protective" of everyone, everywhere? The guy is writing about Swift in the capacity he can understand her as. The person in his life most like Swift is probably his daughter.
Don't be absurd. Of course he has the right to "feel protective" toward whomever he wishes to. What, now you want to control his feelings? He's speaking as a dad, from a dad's perspective. He didn't say "And no other perspective is valid or should be heard." Yes, it's a tad sexist, and I wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't have said it had Swift been a boy. But if he has a daughter, he's picturing her in that spot and his fatherly defense mechanism is activated. He's relating what happened to his own personal experiences and feelings, not claiming any universals (at least, not that I saw). Is that so terribly offensive?
Yes, of course, because I am 19 and "don't know better," I don't have the right to feel creeped out when older men feel "protective" of women who are not their own children.
And naturally, my perspective must be purely due to my age and lack of experience with children. Because, as it's clearly obvious from the comment section here, there is no one who is older and/or a parent who feels the same way I do.
Thanks for proving my point on the ageism bit, though.
I also think you shouldn't be lecturing anyone on "miss[ing] the forest for the trees," as you seemed to have missed the point of my post. It isn't sexist or ageist to say that parents should care about their grown children. You may want to paint me as some ungrateful little teeny-bopper, but I'm actually quite happy to have parents who support me and look out for me.
What's offensive about Mr. Johnson's argument is that it implies Taylor Swift can't stand up for herself and *needs* her father to do so for her. It also suggests that what Kanye West said is more of an insult toward her father than toward her. It's mired in patriarchy and the idea that an adult woman, if she's young enough and still unmarried, still belongs to her parents - more specifically, her father, rather than her mother.
So you're really missing the point of my comment (and the original post, natch) if you think I'm against active and concerned parenting. I'm not. But I'm against the idea that a grown woman, especially one as talented, accomplished and successful as Ms. Swift, is still beholden to Daddy for everything.
His argument implies no such thing & the fact that you see it as such is only evidence of myopia, nothing more. He's clearly expressing what he would do if this were his daughter. He's not recommending anything to Ms. Swift's actual father. And I didn't term anyone an ungrateful teeny bopper, those are your words, not mine. I think anyone who's 19 has a lot of living to do yet, not that their ungrateful.
Finally, as far as 'ageism' is concerned there's nothing ageist about acknowledging the fact that opinions change with time, experience & maturity. I misspoke before. This is not an example of 'not seeing the forest for the trees', its not seeing reality for the ideology.
But you have to think, would he say the same things about swift if she were a male. No, because he imbues males with more autonomy and independance than he does a female.
Honestly, this is about age, not gender. I think a father of a 19yo son treated the same way as Swift would react the same as Johnson.
Now you could make the opposite argument, that the father of a son might think this is a good 'toughening' experience for their kid--but that wouldn't be true of any fathers I know. Perhaps in my neck of the woods we take grown men bullying teenagers more seriously than y'all do.
Funny, if Barbara Walters had said she wanted to do the same thing to Kanye on behalf of Swift, I don't think there'd be any reaction. That's what you call a double standard.
Okay, well to me, your original comment came off as quite patronizing and ageist. I agree that I have a lot of living left, that while I may be an adult in a legal sense I don't yet have the experience of "living" as an adult, in that I'm still a student and still beholden to my parents financially.
But I think we need to differentiate age from life experience. Maturity is relative, and there are many kinds of maturity. I'd argue that because I spend a lot of time reading, re-evaluating my opinions, and trying to educate myself beyond what I learn in school, I'm more "intellectually mature" than most adults I encounter in my day-to-day life. At the same time, I would not say I am not as emotionally mature. Likewise, I would argue that a 16-year-old who has had to support him/herself without parental help, who has had to deal with "adult" situations, is probably more emotionally mature than I am despite being physically younger, and definitely has more life experience.
Taylor Swift's life experience is beyond that of your average 19-year-old. She was thrust into the public eye at a fairly young age, and has to deal with having everything from her fashion choices to her romantic relationships critiqued by the whole society and mass media. I can't even deal with my Facebook friends knowing every time I have a change of relationship status. She also has a successful career at an age when a lot of people haven't even had their first paying job. So I'd argue that she's got emotional maturity well beyond that of most people her age. She can handle this herself.
Whether you want to see Johnson's comment as patronizing or not, it is patronizing to say "I can only imagine how her father feels" as though his opinion matters more than that of Swift herself, as though he's needed to protect her. It's also clearly sexist that Johnson doesn't mention the mother. The comment "I'm not related to her, and I'd like to have a talk with him" also implies that Johnson feels he has the right to take the place of Swift's father in that discussion if her father won't, which is again extremely patronizing and ageist. If someone said something of a similar nature to me, and someone's knee-jerk reaction was "I wonder what her father thinks" rather than "I wonder what she thinks," I would be offended.
I'm not saying that Johnson's comment isn't coming from the right place. But it's always been stressed on places like Feministing that good intent doesn't excuse a clueless comment. Even if you're coming from a good place, you need to think about how your message comes off.
And also: This is not suggesting that Swift's father shouldn't stand up for his daughter. Of course he should. But what offends me about this is the implication that she *needs* him to do it and she *can't stand up for herself.*
edit: where I said "I would not say I am not as emotionally mature" I meant to say "I would say I am not as emotionally mature." Grrrr typos completely changing the mean.
That is exactly what is wrong, incivility in public. I want to add this conduct is sensationalized. Besides the Obama heckler and Kanye's rude interruption, look at the tennis star that had a major meltdown. This needs to stop and these offenders need to be held accountable for their actions. What example is the setting for younger viewers? I am sick of this entitlement crap. Poor behavior, at this level, is spreading like an epidemic disease, around the country into schools and the workplace.
Ugh I feel so bad for Taylor Swift. She's really young and very proud of herself and she won an award she stated earlier in the evening she never expected to win (her red carpet interview was something like "country never wins, it's definitely going to beyonce and lady gaga") and then Kanye preys on her fears and pulls that shit and apparently she went backstage and looked like she was about to cry. I kind of understand the age angle because she's only 19 and it was her first VMA so people feel even worse because she's like a little kitten who just got stepped on (to quote, unfortunately, Katy Perry).
The funny thing is, in Kanye's apology, he says something about talking to Taylor's mom, and that her mom said the same thing Kanye's mom would have. His apology was none too coherent, but I took that to mean that Mrs. Swift chewed him out (as in, not Mr. Swift.)
This is the greatest VMA-related outragey since Joe Piscopo gave an award to Missing Persons because of his fascination with lead singer Dale Bozzio over the more deserving Peter Gabriel*.
* if you've just come back from Googling and discovered that this did not, in fact, happen, I apologize.
If nothing else, though, you gotta love how Beyonce handled the situation.
I'm pretty sure Beyonce was in pre-school when Piscopo hosed over Shock the Monkey in favor of Words.
I prefer the politicized interpretation of the situation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxKIcrDsJAs
*I mean, "this" politicized interpretation of the situation.
Augh, who even cares about Taylor Swift? And she starts crying, what a loser. It's not like she directed the damn video herself. She probably doesn't even write her own music.
And why is there a "Best Female Video"? I didn't realize men and women needed to compete separately for music videos too. That's a topic actually worth talking about.
She does write her own songs, actually (see link below.)
And I'm surprised how condemning you seem to be about people expressing their emotions. Especially when Kanye humiliated her very publicly, I'd say it's sure as hell warrented to feel some emotion.
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/26/entertainment/ca-swift26
I didn't say she shouldnt express her emotions, I just thought it was super lame that she started crying in front of millions of people. I would've just given him a nice "fuck you". And it wasn't that bad, really, I watched the video.
I just think the whole thing is stupid and there are better things to talk about.
So not only do you call Taylor Swift a "loser" for crying about this, you then go on to use lovely ableist terms such as "lame" to describe her even more. Nice.
And maybe you don't think this gendered language and response is worth talking about but some do and no one is making YOU talk about it. If you want to talk about separate categories for best video go ahead and make a post about it. See, that's what I did for this. Ta da!
Different people express their emotions in different ways. Not all 19 year olds would be able to stay composed "in front of millions of people," and not anyone in the entertainment industry would be able to say "fuck you" to Kanye.
Come on... just because you might have reacted differently doesn't mean you get to call her response "lame."
Actually, had Kanye did that to Lady Gaga or Beyonce or P!nk for that matter there would have been a VERY different outcome.
There may be better things to talk about, yet you felt compelled to comment on this issue… TWICE.
You are an idiot! I don't give a damn if Taylor Swift writes her own music or not (she does), nor does it matter if you hate her or like her. Taylor Swift did not deserve to be treated so rudely by some jackass on national T.V., nor does she deserve to be called a "loser" for crying. And you've got the nerve to brag about how YOU would've handled the situation. You wouldn't really know what you would do in that situation until you are in it. Ha! You probably have a snowball's chance in hell of ever being on national TV accepting an award for ANYTHING let alone being publicly humiliated for it. To brag about what YOU would do in that situation is pretty arrogant. That said, Taylor Swift is an incredibly successful and rich country star by the age of 19. The real loser is YOU.
Wow really? What are you 12? Did anyone ever say anything about me winning an award of any sort? And I clearly just responding to someone's comment when I said what I would have done. I only said that it was stupid that she cried because it's not even her freaking video, it's the director's. Why would she be so sensitive about something she didn't even make? Yep, I'm definitely a loser because I'm not a country singer like Taylor Swift. You got me there. I'll go call my mother and tell her she raised me wrong.
That you are not a music star is not evidence that you were poorly raised. It's the stupid things you say and the ridiculous way you say them that tipped everyone off.
I personally love a contrarian, but you're doing it wrong.
"And I clearly just responding to someone's comment when I said what I would have done. I only said that it was stupid that she cried because it's not even her freaking video, it's the director's. Why would she be so sensitive about something she didn't even make?"
And I'm clearly just responding to your comment. You can safely brag anonymously to a bunch of strangers on a blog about what you would've done in Taylor Swift's place, but you can't presume to know that WITHOUT BEING IN HER PLACE. That said, just about everyone knows who Taylor Swift is, and she was publicly humiliated in front of everyone on national TV by some jackass. You call her a loser for crying, and I'm calling you a loser for being a presumptuous idiot. I brought up Taylor Swift being a successful country artist because that explains why she was in that situation to begin with while you can't possibly begin to know ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
"I'll go call my mother and tell her she raised me wrong."
*roll eyes* Why? So, she can get on this blog and defend you against all the mean comments directed at her precious baby for being such an idiot. And you call Taylor Swift a loser for crying! What a laugh!
Hey, come on... you can disagree with the comment without attacking the commenter. That's against the comments policy, it's rude, and it makes it difficult for us to have an honest conversation.
You are an idiot!... You probably have a snowball's chance in hell of ever being on national TV accepting an award for ANYTHING ... The real loser is YOU.
No, I think that in this case it is perfectly acceptable to call the commenter a jackass, because those were the words of a fucking, goddamn cruel jackass. I would have started crying. I guess that makes me a loser.
Left handed penguin, I think your mother just got here! LOL
Oh, Jesus. The "MY immediate, knee-jerk reaction to something completely unexpected that has never happened to me would TOTALLY have been WAY BETTER than that other persons', because ACTUALLY having totally random shit come out at you from left field is EXACTLY the same experience as sitting on your ass musing about shit that happened to other people" response--how original! Because I bet *none* of us have *ever* run into anyone who has responded to someone else's troubles with self-congratulating, masturbatory conjectures about how they would have been so much more macho about it, and so none of us would EVER think people who do that are douchebags.
I once had a lazy-ass couch potato friend with no martial arts experience whatsoever who used to constantly complain that Buffy the Vampire Slayer was "completely useless" because she occasionally takes hits as well as giving them. You sound at *least* that stupid.
We all like to think that we're amazingly wonderful people who would react to anything and everything that we haven't yet gone through in the most ass-kickingly pithy and badass way that anyone has ever behaved ever, and it's easy to sit around and thinking of awesome things to hypothetically say and do in situations that you're nice and removed from. It makes us feel better about ourselves, in ways that can't be taken away from us because they won't be tested against reality.
But that kind of thinking is basically a form of sitting around jerking ourselves off. Which is fine, if we treat it like what it is. Once someone starts judging real people's reactions to unexpected, unscripted, actually-happening situations by the standard of their pre-scripted fantasy self, though, they've crossed the line into being a public douchebag.
Wanking is for IN PRIVATE.
Geez, you could have written a novel instead of that comment.
And people judge people's reactions to shit all the time. A man reacts to his wife's refusal to be a doormat by hitting her. I'll judge him on that. A man reacts to having a female employee by giving her a lower salary and not taking her seriously. I'll judge him on that. And start reading the fucking context of comments, jesus christ. I clearly said that as what I would have done in reaction considering my feelings.
And WTF is with all these 12-year-old TS freaks on here anyway?? Since when did Feministing stop being about Feminism and become the fucking E Channel anyway?? Do you guys think she REALLY needs you on here defending her against one commenter?? She has millions of dollars to hire PR people with, I think somehow she'll be okay! I'm not really that impressed with her accomplishments. She's a hot, well-to-do white girl who got people to buy a country music record, big fucken' deal. Listen to some REAL artists one of these days, ones who write about things more complex than fucking love songs.
Last I checked, nobody voted you the final voice in what REAL music was. People are defending her because sexist comments have been made about her. That is what feminism is all about. And with regards to your comment, you knocked her for fucking crying after a man took the mic out of her hand while she was giving her acceptance speech. I probably would have cried too if I had won "best female video" and somebody took the mic and said "this other person had one of the best music videos of all time."
And I'm not defending TS cause I like her music. Hell, I can't wait for the next song when I hear her come over the music system where I work. Here's a thought: if people are telling you to not be a jerk and 20+ people like their comments and 5 or less like yours, there is a slight chance that you are in fact being a jerk. You don't have to care about a person to care about the fact that they have been wronged.
Even I think LHP is being a jerk. And a dippy one.
thecynicalromantic on the other hand was magnificent.
As for why there is a need for a "Best Female Video" and a "Best Male Video", I find it very likely that if the two were in the same category that men would be more likely to be winners than women. I think that groups without privilege sometimes need these separate categories in order to be represented and acknowledged for the work they do when it's constantly the assumption that the privileged group are better or more capable.
Thank Goddess, I thought I was the only one to feel this way on that particular article.
In this day and age where stridency and attention-grabbing are seen as means to an end, we'll see more of this, sadly.
As for the Paternalism, I agree that the words were offensive, and I find it odd that we will extend a kind of sympathy to "children" that we won't extend to adults.
I also feel like this kind of paternalism was present in Kanye West's episode to begin with. Why did he feel like to had to stand up for Beyonce? If she felt like she had been wronged, she could have dealt with it herself. He certainly wasn't doing her any favors, and she looked like she wanted to melt into her seat.
While my respect for Kanye West probably can't get any lower (though I bet he'll prove me wrong), I am full of admiration for Beyonce for allowing Taylor Swift to finish her speech when "Single ladies" won music video of the year.
"Why did he feel like to had to stand up for Beyonce?"
Very good point MLEmac28!
right? Why did he feel entitled to speak for Beyonce? Does she need him to get recognition? She seems to be doing just fine without his "help."
How do we know he was trying to stand up for Beyonce? Many people already established this was some ego-trip, but now he's being characterized as a dude trying to be a valiant hero for a woman who doesn't need it?
I'm sorry, but this sounds a lot like the construction of the tiny box people put hip hop artists in: they're sexist because they exploit women, they're sexist because they...support other black women artists? I know this is an incident with a lot of complicated factors - it's possible, at least to me, that Kanye can have an ego (like most celebrities), feel that Beyonce should have been nominated and should have won, and see an opportunity to get some publicity. Doesn't make it all genuine and good, but some of the factors in this situation make it hard for me to agree that he was only being condescending to Beyonce.
I do think Kanye's ego had a lot to do with it, but if defending Beyonce wasn't at least part of his reasons for going up there, he at least went up there under the guise of "standing up against an injustice" for Beyonce.
I mean, if Beyonce was not a reason he went up there, he's still a royal ass for interrupting the acceptance speech and then bringing a friend into it when he didn't even give a shit about defending her anyway.
and by the way, unnecessarily coming to someone's rescue because she's a woman is sexist, as is exploiting women. Do you think Kanye would have done that if a male artist had been snubbed? Somehow I doubt it.
But we don't know that he was trying to come to her rescue because she was a woman. We can't read his mind. MTV has a long history (before AND after Michael Jackson) excluding and/or marginalizing black artists. Because it happened to a woman, it's sexist? Why not because she's black?
And I agree that he probably wouldn't interrupt somebody's speech to express support for another man, but it's not necessarily because he's likely to do something sexist to a woman, but perhaps because he'll be called a f*g.
Actually, he's sexist because he thinks his opinion is more important than a woman's acceptance speech. Yes, he might have done this with a male. But I'm betting he wouldn't.
Thanks for pointing out the paternalism in Mr. Johnson, Jr.'s article. It goes quite well with Mr. West's paternalism and entitlement.
I did watch, and last time I checked, Ms. Beyonce Knowles was quite capable of speaking for herself. She doesn't need any help from West. I'm glad they showed her shocked face when he mentioned her name. Plus, she showed she's got class with a capital "C" when she gave Swift her post-award speech time to finish Swift's thank-you's.
Also, what sexist entitlement to think you're allowed to rip the mic out of a young award-winner's hands during her acceptance speech? Something tells me he wouldn't have done that to the "Best Male Video" winner.
All this and Beyonce wins Video of the Year, anyway. I hope Mr. West felt like a royal asshat when that happened.
I'd have to disagree. Kanye's stunt was definately NOT staged. He's an idiot and he's known for saying and doing stupid things such as saying he is "the new King of Pop" after Michael Jackson died or that "President Bush does not care about black people" in 2005 during the aftermath of hurricane Katrina. He also got thrown out of the awards show so it was definately not staged.
Could you expand on why you thought Kanye West's saying "George Bush doesn't care about black people" was "stupid"?
"President Bush does not care about black people" in 2005 during the aftermath of hurricane Katrina ...
Um, I don't think this was a "stupid thing to say." Kanye was brave and right for saying it, though perhaps in a more crude and over-assuming manner than most would have said it. The racism and general racial dimensions of Hurricane Katrina continue to be ignored by the general public today.
I was actually glad to hear him say it. It's fucking exhausting to watch politicians and people in other positions of power and prestige tip-toe around it, pretend like shit's all A-OK in this fucked-up country, you don't want to make the white middle class TOO uncomfortable or have to examine their own behavior TOO carefully.
Right, but hardly brave. By that time most of the few people who still liked Bush were the ones who don't care about black people, and not generally Hip Hop fans. Country singers going against Bush in 2003, now that was brave.
What you said. A person (Kanye West leaps to mind) can be an egotistical jerk and still say something that's true.
I'm troubled by portrayals of Swift in the media today. T.J. Holmes from CNN just called Swift a "17-year-old baby, a child" who had her spotlight stolen, though isn't she 19? I'm not sure the age difference would change these characterizations in a significant way...
But I've also been troubled by some of my friends' characterizations of West as having "asserted himself over" Swift. A whole other conversation about race could be going on here. I don't want to prematurely give West credit for orchestrating something that highlights MTV's exclusion of black artists (because I think most are agreed that he has a history of self-publicizing, like many celebrities), but I think that's one result of this incident.
Well I don't know about the "asserted himself over" Swift comments of your friends, but there has been some racial comments made that I find disturbing as well. In the article I linked an MTV.com editor was quoted as writing that he thought Kanye must've been drunk and "on the Hennessy." I don't know why they felt the need to label the beverage and couldn't have just left it at Kanye seemed intoxicated (for those that don't know, Hennessy has a connotation for being a "black person's alcohol" and "ghetto").
I'm not arguing with you on the racial connotations of Hennessy, but Kanye WAS holding a partially-full bottle of Hennessy on the red carpet, http://www.mtv.com/photos/vma-2009-full-fashion-recap/1620615/4251343/photo.jhtml.
Oh okay, I did not see that before. My mistake.
Oh, not a problem. =) I had just happened to see the picture this morning (without noticing the brand) and after I read your comment, I went back to check if it actually was Hennessy. Because I agree with you that if the MTV editor had just made that assumption regarding the brand of alcohol, that would have some serious racial implications attached to it.
I feel sorry for anyone who actually cares what happens at award shows.
That's funny, because I was just thinking how sorry I felt for people who deliberately follow links and post comments anonymously about how superior they are to the other commenters because they've got like, so much cred and shit.
Wow. I must have touched a nerve.
Don't flatter yourself. Do you really think your comment was original? Flocks of hipsters pull that "too cool for mainstream culture" bullshit every day in comment threads. It`s another trope with which anyone who has been on the net for more than four hours is familiar. It`s boring and tiresome. Find a new hobby.
Being a dick isn't actually something to brag about.
Billy Johnson has most likely never been a young woman or a mother. Of course he most closely identifies with what the father might be thinking.
So when men treat younger women (not even younger in some cases) with baby gloves and act as though they need the protection of a man or father figure it's okay because...they've never themselves been women?
So when you feel like arguing with something I never said you're just going to invent it and start the sentence with "so" to make it look like you're actually responding to me?
This response made me giggle.
So, you are saying smothering puppies is okay if it saves the rain forest?!?!?
;) I am going to use this technique all the time for angry, self-righteous community posting.
Well explain what you're saying because honestly (and I didn't mean my first reply with any snark either) I don't get your point aside from giving him an excuse.
My response was to the OP's ""imagine how her father feels." Why just her father? Why not both her parents? I guess her father is the only one that's really supposed to protect her right? I mean, what's her little old mother to do?"
So you think that a manz columnist who thinks he knows more about a fatherz's point of view than a mother's is a misogynistic monster who thinks women are weak?
What is the deal? I haven't been snarky to you at all and now you keep being so to me. I'm the OP if you haven't gotten that.
And again it seems like you're just saying what he said was okay and excusable because what else was he supposed to think or say because he's a man.
Yes, I admit I think it's okay that a man felt more comfortable guessing at what a father would think than what a mother would.
Except that just because someone is a father doesn't mean he has to protect and shelter his *adult* daughter from all the Kanye Wests of the world.
Shoot, my dad was buying me boxing gloves and teaching me to spar when I was 4. Extreme example, yes, but some dads do want to see their daughters stick up for themselves and be self-sufficient.
I think that's what Lara/llevinso was getting at, if I'm not mistaken.
Ok, maybe your dad wouldn't be pissed off if someone treated you that way. Why don't you ask him?
Uh, I don't really have to. See, I have had people treat me rudely and spitefully. I've had people embarrass me publicly. My folks may gripe about them behind closed doors, and they may give good advice and listen to me vent, but they also know I'm a grownup, and that it's my issue to deal with.
Why is a dad respecting his daughter enough to let her fight her own battles so difficult to believe?
And as you stood there crying, you're *sure* your father didn't want to "have a talk" with the offender? (If you weren't crying then the parallel with Ms. Swift doesn't really hold water.)
Mr. Swift didn't, as far as I know, kick Mr. West's ass around the ally behind the MTV Awards Hall. And the author didn't say he should have. I bet the author's right about him wanting to, I'm a peaceful guy and I sure would, but people want to do all sorts of things they don't.
I agree. I really dont see the problem with what he said, honestly. Its written as though he just views the situation extra-upsetting because Taylor is so young and maybe he sees it on a more personal level if he has a daughter himself. I actually thought the same thing when I watched it happen. Shes just a teenager, recieving her first award and some jackass jumps on stage and tears the mic out of her hand. I think any parent would be upset if that happened to their kid, no matter how old they are. Would this be just as upsetting if a woman wrote about how upset Swifts mother must be at kanye?
No, but I would expect a professional writer to use more inclusive language. If he wants to write about how he reacted based on his lens as a father, he could've worded the piece very differently.
And can't believe this was actually posted on here for cripes sake. I mean I know this site looks under every rock to knock anything remotely to do with hip hop but...damn.
This post has NOTHING to do with hip hop. Is that seriously all you got from my whole post? Seriously? You're the one trying to hard here. It's about GENDERED LANGUAGE for crying out loud!
Just because someone devotes their comment to one aspect of a situation doesn't mean that's a reflection of all they got out of a post. Plus I think this post acted as a catch-all for Feministing since they haven't formally posted about the incident in any general sort of way. That's probably why some of these posts have digressed...but some have productively...
I agree that your post is about gendered language, but there's a race component(s) overlooked in this whole thing, so we need to talk about that.
Yes, there is absolutely a racial issue here, too. But instead of pointing this out, LaLa simply put words in the author's mouth and ignored the entire point of the post. And that's not ok.
... and btw I was at MSG when Jay, Ye and RiRI rocked the hell out of that joint, best concert ever.
......and this means what? We forgive his being a jackass because he puts on a good show? I'll acknowledge, I've enjoyed some of his music over the years, it doesn't negate the fact that he took over the acceptance speech for an award he wasn't even nominated for to tell the winner she didn't deserve it. If he wanted to bitch about it, he should have done it on his own blog after the show.
And, in regards to your above post about hip hop, the genre of music had nothing to do with it. If Beyonce had won and Alan Jackson had jumped up on stage to announce that Taylor Swift should have gotten it, we would be just as annoyed and talking about the paternalism in his actions.
To be accurate, he didn't really "tell her she didn't deserve it." He remarked that "Beyonce [also] has one of the best videos."
I don't think we forget what Kanye did because he's a good artist, but people are acting like he should go live underground now and never make a beat again. A lot of these people will be bobbing their heads to those beats when they hear them, which is fine.
I think LaLa Reina is pointing out that people liked his stuff before and are going to act like they don't know. At least, that's been my take about this whole thing.
I love Kanye warts and all but when I saw those red carpet pictures of him with a half empty bottle of henny in his hand I knew there would be some shit. But I just can't seen to care about MTV. People worry about this bullshit more than the health care debate.
Yeah, because 60,000 people marched on Washington and a bus has been traveling around to rally the troops in response to what Kanye did. Joe Wilson totally didn't get as much attention as Kanye is. And the news will definitely be talking about this for the next 2 months.
This has been blown out of proportion, but I wouldn't say people care more about this than the health care debate.
Joe Wilson got a million dollars for his campaign fund and became a neo con hero.
I read that article, too, and that same segment pissed me off. It's very much an appeal to chivalry, to the idea that women are frail, fragile things incapable of defending themselves, so men should be EXTRA careful around them and their gentle lady sensibilities.
But I gotta be honest. In spite of how "impolite" Kanye's behavior was, let's please remember it was just a stupid-ass awards show, folks. Really, who gives a shit. Hollywood awards shows are generally an opportunity for mainstream "artists" to pat themselves on the back for their mediocrity and great appeal to the ignorant masses while more interesting and unique indie musicians languish on the sidelines.
I didn't hear half of this outcry over Chris Brown, half of this indignation or remarks about "how it's more important to be a good PERSON than a good ARTIST." Give me a flocking break. Take the mic out of the hands of an innocent-looking white girl at an awards show and all hell breaks loose - you're a total douchebag, a terrible person, one of the most-hated people in Hollywood - but beat up your girlfriend and you're still kind of OK, I guess. I'll put money on it that Chris Brown will be back making music and on the charts in a year or two, tops. And no one will feel a bit bad mingling with him.
P.S. I'll also draw your attention to the numerous anti-black racist comments Johnson's column inspired, posted below his piece.
"Take the mic out of the hands of an innocent-looking white girl at an awards show and all hell breaks loose - you're a total douchebag, a terrible person, one of the most-hated people in Hollywood..."
This is something I've been thinking about, too. I know there are folks on here who were outraged that Rhianna was hurt, and outraged that Taylor Swift's moment was lost, but it's weird that I'm encountering a lot of friends who normally don't have a comment who are crazy-mad at Kanye in a way they weren't at Chris Brown. Suddenly a lot of people who are sexism-deniers suddenly know what sexism is when it's a black man taking the mic from a young white woman.
I've also been wondering if people on here (and elsewhere of course) are overstating the sexism in this whole thing because of how HUGE the transgression appears to them when a black hip hop artists interrupts a sweet white woman country singer. I know good gosh darn well that there are some male country singers who adore Taylor Swift who have uttered the N-word in the last day...(and to country fans, I'm not disparaging country music as a genre, just some artists whose no-blacks-or-women-allowed attitudes are scary).
Simply because something happens in a medium/venue you deem unworthy of attention does not mean it is not culturally important and, therefore, not important to analyze. It's the exact opposite.
There is absolutely a racial component here to be analyzed, but the fact that he's black and she's white does not mean we can't discuss this and criticize him. Last I checked, black men were still men, and therefore have male privilege that they can exercise in this sexist society. Race complicates this analysis, but it in no way invalidates it. Basically, my point is that labeling this entire discussion racist in order to shut it down is not appropriate.
I don't know what you're referring to by something happening "in a medium/venue [I] deem unworthy of attention." I'm just going to say that this is too large a step to take based on what I have written. I've indicated nothing "unworthy of attention" in this discussion. Please re-read my post before making that kind of claim.
Suggesting that sexism against Swift may be overstated because she's white reflects not just historical occurrences, but attitudes that need checked from time to time today. Yes, Kanye was rude and inappropriate. I think we can continue talking about why and how he was rude and inappropriate. But your comments seem to suggest that conversations and claims about him address this and this alone. I think we all know that situations are complex and multi-layered, and some have purposefully overstated certain aspects (like race) in order to highlight them in what many are treating as a "race-neutral" situation (or, "gender-not-race"). This is rhetorical and not malicious or akin to calling something "racist." Many in this comment section have suggested that race has nothing to do with this situation, and I'm wondering if this is because gender is most evident to them. It could be, or I could be wrong, but it's worth talking about.
And never did I "label this entire discussion racist in order to shut it down." Again, that's much too large a claim to make based on what I have written. I wrote that sexism can be overstated, and it has been historically when it comes to white women. This is not to say that white women do not experience sexism, and it's not to say that black men cannot be sexist. Just because race enters an analysis as a significant variable does not mean that someone is being accused of racism. Please let's be careful not to make claims like this.
I'm sorry, that first part was supposed to be addressed to Allegra.
And I think questioning whether race has an impact on people's reactions to this is a totally valid thing to bring up. This, however, took it somewhere totally different: "I've also been wondering if people on here (and elsewhere of course) are overstating the sexism in this whole thing because of how HUGE the transgression appears to them when a black hip hop artists interrupts a sweet white woman country singer." You're mocking the entire situation; it's clear you think this is all bullshit. That's fine, but come up with a better way of saying it then basically telling everyone they have nothing to complain about and no right to be complaining. You can't deny the implicit message of that sentence no matter how you spin it-- it was an unfair way of using racism to shut down the discussion instead of opening it up.
I'm actually not mocking the situation, and please don't foreclose and invalidate future responses from me by saying there's no way I can "spin" my own sentence in any way that changes your own interpretation of it.
Instead of shutting down this particular way of talking about race, perhaps we could instead discuss to what extent you think my claim could be accurate and what that might mean in this situation. Is it possible that some on this board can overstate the sexism because the optics of black man/white woman appears even more a sexist transgression? I do think it's possible because this resembles many past occurrences where that dynamic was at play. The initial way I wrote the sentence was indeed shorthand for an even longer explication of that, but it doesn't mean I think this conversation is "bullshit," and no where did I say that people don't have a "right" to complain. Just because I look at those complaints differently than you doesn't mean I'm trying to step on people's rights.
I'm sorry you've discerned something sarcastic or malicious in what I wrote, but I'm really not that hard-headed or unwilling to hear views to the contrary of what I said. Those have not come yet, though I'm willing to have that conversation.
Simply because something happens in a medium/venue you deem unworthy of attention does not mean it is not culturally important and, therefore, not important to analyze. It's the exact opposite.
I am indeed a fan of cultural analysis. It's important and necessary. But people are somehow failing to put this incident into perspective. For example, I've seen and heard several people compare this to Joe Wilson interrupting President Obama, which is simply ridiculous. Neither Kanye nor Taylor Swift are elected officials or national policymakers with the power to influence law. Kanye interrupted Swift while she was about to offer the obligatory "thank you," nothing more (people act like she was going to dispense some gem of wisdom that Kanye made them totally miss out on); Joe Wilson interrupted Obama while he was giving a speech on a serious matter of national importance. Which, I'm sorry, but a pop video music award is not. Yes, pop music very much *influences* people's attitudes, but it's simply not going to decide how much you have to pay the doctor.
No one's attempting to "shut down the conversation by calling it racist," but we should be examining the racial element here, especially since this faux chivalry has historically come out during instances of black men challenging or having relationships with or actually just looking sideways at white women. And, as JessWin mentioned, an awful lot of people are trotting out the racist name-calling and taking his behavior as some representative example of those rude "ghetto" black people who don't know how to behave decently in public. Again, I'm still really baffled, when compared with something like the Chris Brown incident, that this weird hatred is being dumped on Kanye simply for impropriety in public. To be honest, I don't quite get it.
First of all, what we're analyzing here isn't pop music, it's an awards show. Secondly, it's absurd to characterize an acceptance speech as an 'obligatory thank you'. It's getting your 30 seconds in the spotlight to really enjoy your achievement, and Kanye West feels he has the right to determine who's allowed to enjoy her achievement, and who isn't-- it was a ridiculous display of male privilege In fact, it's just about the biggest display of non-abusive male privilege I can think of-- grabbing a mic from someone during her acceptance speech at a major awards show. You decided to dismiss this as 'someone taking the mic out of the hands of an innocent-looking white girl,' which is using the racism analysis not to add to this discusion, but to silence it because you don't believe it's valid. So please don't try to back track or turn this conversation somewhere else. That was incredibly obnoxious and dismissive thing to do.
Yes! When will Taylor Swift apologize to Kanye West for what she's put him through?
I don't know why you replied to me. It's such a grossly wrong conclusion to make based on what I've written that I'm just hoping you were trying to reply to someone who really thinks Kanye is a victim in this.
Peace.
I don't even know what you're talking about.
Suddenly a lot of people who are sexism-deniers know what sexism is when it's a black man taking the mic from a young white woman.
That's what I'm feeling, especially in this Billy Johnson, Jr.'s blog post. I recall that Johnson just recently wrote some other sexist tripe on that same blog; I know it because I distinctly remember reading it and posting a nasty response. Wasn't he the one who compared Brett Favre to a loose woman? Anyway, I can't quite remember.
No.
I just want to say I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I was thinking about this today as well. Would the reaction have been so visceral, if it was say, Pete Wentz who took the mic out of Taylor's hands? I want to believe there's no racism involved, and it's just simply people reacting to Kanye West's overinflated ego and attention whoring. However, when I see reactions such as "stupid nigger", or the very common, "what did you expect..he's black!", makes me think that I shouldn't completely rule it out.
C'mon, Allegra, you didn't see this much flak over the Chris Brown incident? Really??? Well where were you??? Not here. I mean, geez, Feministing, must've had what, 5, 10, 20--it seemed like 50 posts--on the subject.
I'm a huge Kanye fan & I'm hip to his occasional Afro-centric streak, but at least at Feministing, Chris Brown got a ton more treatment. For what its worth, I certainly agree with your point that in the culture generally, the black-white aspect of it has certainly sharpened the optics of the incident. But as I said, I'm a huge Kanye fan & have every one of his CDs, but 1st thing this morning I told all my Facebook friends that KW was a huge asshole, proof positive that talent & tact have nothing to do with one another.
The other angle here, of course, is class. And I don't simply mean Kanye's lack of it. I mean the fact that 1 of music's biggest superstars saw fit to sh*t all over an up & comer.
Thank you so much for writing this post. I had the exact same thought when I read this article this morning. Honestly, the way the media talks about TS, I really thought she was like 16 or so. I didn't know until this morning that she was actually older than that. That's a whole other thread we can pick at.
Good job!
Geez...so this is a little off topic, but I looked for the video on youtube and found a few made by folks who had watched the show and were commenting on his ridiculousness. Some people are adamant about defending Kanye, to the point of calling people really horrible names...I continue to (for some odd reason) be amazed at what the anonymous nature of the internet breeds...even over something as inconsequential (in the grand scheme of things) as someone believing that Kanye's behavior was inappropriate.
Did anyone else notice the It's simple math that even a "College Dropout" should be able to figure out. jab? A person isn't stupid just because they drop out of college or (gasp!) never go at all. Wasn't it enough to just focus the criticism on Kany West's behavior? Why was it necessary to discredit him in this way?
I'm trying to imagine what this situation would have looked like had Kanye West and Taylor Swift been two women or two men, or Kanye been female and Taylor male. And I can't really picture it happening at all. It feels very much like Kanye's behavior stemmed from a place of male entitlement (interrupting Taylor) and benevolent sexism (unnecessarily defending Beyonce).
College Dropout was the name of one of Kanye's albums. I think it was less of a jab at college dropouts and more just a little bit of a snarky joke type deal.
It was the name of Kanye's first album but he also dropped out of college.
I don't have time to read all of the comments here, so I'm sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere.
I'm really disappointed with the analysis offered in this post. Yes, the quoted statement is incredibly paternalistic (for the reasons identified), but it's main point is completely valid: that Taylor Swift is young and female absolutely played into the incident. Do you think Kanye West would have done this to a man? A man older than he is? It's possible, but much less likely. What Mr. West is doing here is exploiting cultural misogyny and ageism and not even realizing it. In short, he's a tool.
I read through all of the comments, but i apologise if I missed someone already pointing this out.
Kanye West has done this before, but instead of going up on stage on 'behalf' (used loosely) of someone else, he felt that his video was far better than the winners.
Asshat-ness ensues
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5jLwDHF4uQ
Kanye West will trash talk a president of the country he resides in on national TV directly and by name and with specific accounts, why is it any surprise that he wouldn't call MTV for what they did in the middle of someone else's moment? He's a VERY VERY selfish person, very inconsiderate and an egomaniac. Someone should ave been there to redirect him to his seat when he started making his way onstage. He's showed his tail before at the MTV awards show when he didnt agree with who won.
I want to know what MTV was thinking in making the statement that Taylor Swift had the best FEMALE video but Beyonce had the Best video of the YEAR over everyone when Beyonce is female also. It's like saying Usain Bolt is the fastest person in the world but someone else is the fastest man in the world. Are they sayng Beyonce is somehow *not* female, or that she is *less* female than Taylor Swift? I think Taylor Swift is great and would have parred better getting an award for best new artist or best new female artist