This is my second post on Feministing Community, and I was really happy about the mostly positive responses I got to the first one (as well as the constructive negative ones) and decided to ask my fellow Feministing Community members a personal question re: my sister.
My little sister is a 16 years old and a high school junior. She is bright, opinionated, funny, and all-around wonderful, which is why I am very worried about her as of late. She has recently joined a rather conservative Missouri-Synod Lutheran church, a church which tries to tell her that she is not "truly Christian" for being pro-choice and pro-gay-rights. She doesn't agree with a lot of their politics, but unfortunately, one thing she does agree with them on is the idea that she needs to be abstinent until marriage.
I don't think I need to go into the many arguments against abstinence-only sex ed, as I think the majority of you know them. And while I personally believe that until-marriage abstinence is not the wisest choice because I've seen it go wrong so many times (it really does seem, in the situations I've seen, to be a case of buying the car without test-driving it), but I respect others who make this choice, as I would hope they would respect my choice not to save sex until marriage.
However, it is an entirely different ballgame when the person making this choice is my little sister, and when I know that the abstinence-until-marriage movement is rooted in very sexist, patriarchal traditions about ownership of women. My parents (including my stepdad, who is a Presbyterian minister) agree with me, but we have relatively little control over my sister since she lives with my biological dad, whom I am estranged from for a variety of reasons, one of the big ones being that he is a raging misogynist who does not believe in women's autonomy and continues to see my sister and I as "little girls" who are incapable of thinking for ourselves. (For example, he continues to believe that my agnosticism is "just a phase," despite the fact that I've been an agnostic for now over half of my life and show no signs of changing.) He encourages this abstinence attitude, and knowing how much he loves controlling people as well as how sexist he is, I'm convinced it's because he is attracted to the idea of the father being responsible for a girl's sexuality.
Even apart from my father's creepy interest in keeping my sister subjugated, I don't like the idea that my sister is getting such twisted messages about her sexuality and her self-worth: for example, that her moral character is ultimately due to keeping her virginity intact, and that it trumps all other concerns. Recently, while my sister and I were walking around the city on a very hot August day, she chastised me for the shirt I was wearing, calling me a "slut" and saying I should have worn a cami underneath. The shirt was white, and semi-see-through (but not tastelessly so, and I was wearing a neutral-colored bra with it). I had worn it because of the temperature, and explained to her that adding another layer underneath the shirt would have defeated my purpose for wearing it, which was to keep myself cool. It didn't matter to her. Being "pure" takes precedence, in her mind, over personal comfort. While a small example of what she is learning in her abstinence program, it was nonetheless a disturbing one to me, as it showed just how deeply entrenced the idea of purity-uber-alles* is in her value system. Her own wishes, dreams, and desire are subservient to the need to remain pure.
I've tried to talk with my sister about how bad the messages she's getting are, but it's difficult. For one, she's convinced that because I'm not religious, I can't possibly understand why her church and what it teaches are important to her, and perhaps there is something truth in that, though I try my best to understand. I've tried introducing her to feminist thought on the subject - I even bought her a copy of Full Frontal Feminism - but she thought she didn't need it because she said "I'm already a feminist." She's convinced that because her church gives the same message about "waiting until marriage" to both boys and girls, there's nothing remotely sexist or patriarchal about it. (In her defense, I've sometimes gotten so frustrated about her views on this that I've resorted to some very unproductive strategies, e.g. when I got so mad I ripped up her "purity promise card" that she had in her wallet. I can see why she thinks this is more about pushing my views on her than concern for her well-being.)
So I am wondering if any of you have suggestions about opening up a dialogue with my sister about abstinence and how I'm concerned about her. (Even my parents have difficulty with this - despite the fact that my stepdad is a Christian pastor, who has read the Bible in the original Hebrew and Greek, his views are unimportant to her because he's not part of "her church.") I realize I may not convince her that abstinence-until-marriage is a bad idea; she may need to come to that herself. But I would like her to at least see that I'm more concerned about her than I am trying to turn her into an agnostic. And, at the very least, I would just like to get her to start thinking critically about her choice to be abstinent, and what that really means.
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Man, that's tough. It sounds like your sister is more concerned with being part of the 'the group' rather than being a good Christian.
Anyway, I think you could focus on getting your sister to be sexually educated (even if you are waiting til marriage!) but this might be difficult because it seems purity = no knowledge. You might want to get your sister the book "virgin: the untouched history" although I haven't read it--but it might be appropriate.
I would just constantly challenge your sister---keep asking questions. i.e. So if I wear this shirt and get raped is it my fault? Is it your fault if you get raped cuz your are wearing the color purple? What is sexual immorality and what EXACTLY makes it immoral? Are you still pure after going to the gyno? Why or why not??
Keep pushing her on the why.
I one hundred percent agree with the sexual education.
At this point dont push her on her staying abstinent- to many 16 year olds sex seems scary and adult and full of danger. But try to talk to her about being sexual responsible and get her to a point where she is okay with others not being abstinent before marriage. That way when she does start having sex she feels she can talk to you about things.
I second this suggestion as well. As long as she knows what safe sex is, I wouldn't be too worried about whether or not she's actually having any.
Other than that, you might want to back off some. Pushing her is likely to get her to push back. The more important thing is to be available for her to talk to. Deal with the issue if it comes up, but gently and be ready to drop it if needed. She's old enough that you're not going to be able to force her to change.
It seems to me that the first step in getting your sister to engage in genuine dialogue with you would be convincing her that you respect her decisions, her beliefs and her personal autonomy, even if you don't necessarily agree with her.
Right now it may feel to her less like you care about her and want her to be happy, and more like you want to force your beliefs on her. I'm not saying that is what you want, just that it may very well feel that way to her.
Give your sister some time.
For now, being abstinent isn't a bad thing. She's sixteen and sex might feel like a far-off experience, especially if she's not seriously dating anyone (which you didn't mention she was). Abstinence is easy for her right now.
And be there for her and provide the other side. Like when she started calling you a slut, take the opportunity to really deconstruct why she would say that to her sister, what it means, and why it's problematic. She might resist, but you've planted the seed. If she's smart, she'll come around.
Don't go out of your way to attack her beliefs or she'll just cling to them even harder. Just problematize the ones that are misogynistic and homophobic. She'll need to come to this on her own.
With the asterisk up there, I meant to note that by using the phrase "purity-uber-alles" I wasn't trying to make a tasteless Nazi comparison; I only used it because uber-alles literally means "over all" and it seemed to fit with what my sister was saying about how dressing "pure" trumped personal comfort.
Just FYI (and this isn't a very important point), but the Deutschland-ueber-alles song (the actual title is "Das Deutschlandlied") isn't a Nazi thing-- the song was written in 1844. Also, the idea that it means Germany should conquer everything else is a common misconception. It just means that Germany should be more important to Germans than anything else-- not a sentiment I find particularly appealing, but really not much worse than jingoistic "patriotic" songs popular in other countries, like "God Bless America". It's actually still Germany's national anthem, but they've dropped the first two original verses in favor of the third verse, which begins "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" (unity and justice and freedom).
As for your sister, I'd be really concerned about her choosing to join the LCMS. They're extremely homophobic and misogynistic, and if she doesn't conform on these issues soon, they'll kick her out. My girlfriend's father is an LCMS pastor, and he hasn't spoken to her since she came out five years ago. Her parents even tried to send her to a degayification camp. In addition to trying to get your sister to reconsider her stance on the abstinence-only issue, you might want to see if you can get her to think carefully about why she wants to join a church that actively opposes her pro-LGBT and pro-choice values.
I also know what you're saying about Missouri Synod churches. Because my bio dad is Missouri Synod, my sister and I were both raised that way (and I attended a LCMS school from kindergarten through second grade which was extremely conservative, although our church was somewhat progressive), at least until our parents got divorced and my mom remarried. For a while, we were both able to escape that church because we lived with our mom primarily, where we went to our stepdad's Presbyterian church. But she recently decided to live with our bio dad and stepmom, and so they've successfully gotten her back into their church.
My stepdad in particular has talked with her about what Missouri Synod churches are like and explained to her that she has other church options that don't make her feel bad about her opinions on abortion and gay rights. I think her ties to her current church are more about liking the community of people than about theological or denominational loyalty, and since she's now considering a career in the clergy, she's admitted that she's probably going to change denominations at one point since LCMS doesn't ordain women, and when that happens she plans to pick a church whose political views are more in line with her own.
Just FYI (and this isn't a very important point), but the Deutschland-ueber-alles song (the actual title is "Das Deutschlandlied") isn't a Nazi thing-- the song was written in 1844. Also, the idea that it means Germany should conquer everything else is a common misconception. It just means that Germany should be more important to Germans than anything else-- not a sentiment I find particularly appealing, but really not much worse than jingoistic "patriotic" songs popular in other countries, like "God Bless America". It's actually still Germany's national anthem, but they've dropped the first two original verses in favor of the third verse, which begins "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" (unity and justice and freedom).
As for your sister, I'd be really concerned about her choosing to join the LCMS. They're extremely homophobic and misogynistic, and if she doesn't conform on these issues soon, they'll kick her out. My girlfriend's father is an LCMS pastor, and he hasn't spoken to her since she came out five years ago. Her parents even tried to send her to a degayification camp. In addition to trying to get your sister to reconsider her stance on the abstinence-only issue, you might want to see if you can get her to think carefully about why she wants to join a church that actively opposes her pro-LGBT and pro-choice values.
Sorry, didn't mean to post this twice. The comment feature was malfunctioning. :P
Yeah, I know it isn't a Nazi song, I just know that the term "uber alles" is used, at least in America, when you're trying to make a connection between something and Nazism/Hitler (e.g. the Dead Kennedys song "California Uber Alles"). I wanted to make it clear that that wasn't what I intended before people started jumping on me about Godwin's Law; the use of "uber alles" was just a rhetorical flourish, basically.
Ok; sorry I misunderstood your intentions. I've been living in my German-grad-student bubble for too long and have probably forgotten how things like that are interpreted by most Americans! :)
It's fine, no worries! :)
Unfortunately it's still got the Nazi connotation (like what happened to a lot of nineteenth-century German poets, authors, composers and artists). Which is why it's only the third stanza that's the anthem - singing the first or second in Germany today is basically interpreted as shouting at people "hey, I'm a neo-Nazi!" (need I add that saying "Deutschland über alles" to a German is unlikely to go over well? I seem to keep running into people who think this is somehow appropriate.)
It's a pity, given that the historical context of the lyrics isn't even jingoistic superiority - at the time, "Germany" was still a collection of city-states and minor monarchies, duchies etc., and the lyrics were meant to inspire people to work towards unification and to set the idea of a united Germany above their own tiny state. At least, that's how I understand it.
The problem with abstenance-only is the "only" part, not the abstinence part.
I see no reason to talk a teenager out of being abstinent. Honestly, abstinence is a reasonable way to avoid a lot of problems that plague young people.
Respect her choice, her autonomy.
kbz
I realize I may not convince her that abstinence-until-marriage is a bad idea; she may need to come to that herself.
Your post sounds a little bit like you're trying to encourage her to have sex before marriage, which is kind of an odd position to take, in my opinion. If she doesn't want to have sex right now, or before she's married, that's neither a good nor bad thing - it's just her choice.
It sounds like you should focus on the more misogynistic manifestations of her desire to be abstinent, such as her calling you a slut. I think that part of this whole abstinence thing is far more troubling than whether or not she wants to have sex before she's married.
So if I were in your position, I'd tell her, "I totally respect your decision to not want to have sex before a certain time. Just know that I'm here to answer questions if you ever do need to know about STDs and protection. But can we talk about this 'slut' business? That's really bothering me, because I don't think that our worth as a person is tied to who we do or don't sleep with."
This is a good example of religious people worshipping 'Christianity' more than they actually worship Christ.
Please back off the abstinence thing with your sister. I've never had sex, nor do I plan to have sex until I meet someone I want to spend the rest of my life with. That doesn't make me a bad feminist. I believe that each person gets to decide the when and where of sex; abstinence until marriage is just as valid a choice as having sex for just for pleasure. What is important is that it is a freely made choice. If you feel your sister isn't making a free choice, then talk to her about that, but don't try to convince her to have sex just because you feel it is a 'better' choice. For her, it may not be the right choice. What is important is that it is her choice.
Joan
Just to clarify: The abstinence itself isn't really the issue. I personally think abstinence until marriage isn't the smartest choice, because sex is an important part of a relationship and I just don't think it's wise to marry someone without taking that bit into consideration. That being said, I'm currently 19 years old and a virgin, and while I'd probably have sex if I were in a relationship, it's not like I'm desperate to get laid. I think that, especially as my sister is young and still in high school, the fact that she is abstinent right now isn't exactly a bad thing. I don't think she's at the maturity level where she can handle it yet*; more to the point, I like that she's learning how to set standards for herself and be able to tell a guy "no" when he's pushing for something she doesn't want to do.
What bothers me are the messages she's getting about her sexuality from the church, especially how it ties into her worth as a person. For example, the idea that whether she's a moral person or not is contingent on whether or not she's sexually active, or that she "owes" it to God or her future husband to remain a virgin. Whether you're having sex or not, it should be about what YOU want, not about what you're guilt-tripped into choosing. Likewise, the whole idea that girls are "giving guys the wrong ideas" (her words, not mine) by wearing certain outfits, and also that "looking pure" takes precedence over personal comfort, really bothered me.
After that incident with my shirt, when we got back home I had a chat with her about how the "giving guys the wrong ideas" claim is a slippery slope because it's often used as an excuse for rape. She agreed with me that no matter what they're wearing, victims are never responsible for rape, and I think she realized how such rhetoric could be problematic. So I tried to extend that to say how it's not the woman's responsibility to keep away the male gaze, it's the man's responsibility to use self-control, but I don't know if I got that message through to her. She started telling me how men couldn't help themselves. So I just realized she's not going to listen to reason when it contradicts her church's teachings, and decided to put off the rest of that conversation for another time.
*That being said, I'm not saying that no high school kids can handle sex. I think some can. But my sister isn't one of them at this point.
I would definitely work on emphasizing to her that men CAN help themselves, and that she should expect them to do so. The place I've read the most about the "myth of male weakness" is on Hugo Schwyzer's blog, he does a good job writing about his refusal to accept that men need to be kept in check by women and that men aren't capable of holding themselves accountable. The whole idea expoused by patriarchy that men are somehow more animalistic than women and have no ability to use their brains and will simply act on their desires is very dangerous to us and downright insulting to them.
If she's not responsive to the idea that women should be free to wear what they want without being considered impure and unworthy, talking about what standard men should be held to might be a more effective route. Ask her why her church thinks so little of men, why it treats them like they're less than human. She may not yet realize just how degrading that attitude is.
Does it really say in the bible that men are more animalistic than women? I recall that scriptures says "men are the head of women" so I would say, even in the conservative church, that's BS.
Regardless of sexual libidos, one can be sexually respectful.
To be honest, in that case I'd reframe your argument - I don't think the abstinence-until-marriage is really what you need to focus on. Warning for rampant speculation ahead: it *sounds* as if your sister might feel that she doesn't want to have sex now, maybe doesn't feel ready for it, maybe just plain isn't interested, and finds the abstinence movement a good support for her decision *not* to have sex. In that case, people telling her "but abstinence is silly!" aren't just attacking her beliefs, she might interpret it as pressure to have sex - which she probably won't take kindly.
If you're going to attack the abstinence thing at all, I'd focus on asking her to keep her mind open and being willing to change her decision if she doesn't like it anymore. That abstinence seems like a good idea to her now, and that's okay and you respect that - that if it's really how she feels you'd be happy if she doesn't have sex for her whole life if she wants - but that if five years along the line she feels really constrained by it and doesn't feel it's right for her anymore she should be willing to change her mind. Or something along those lines. /Not/ trying to make her drop the abstinence thing now. And you might even want to talk to her about how you're still a virgin in order to reassure her that you're not trying to pressure her into having sex.
I'd mainly urge her to realise that abstinence does not have to entail all of the things her church is pressing on her, because it sounds as if she's not quite realising how much baggage they're pressing onto her along with the idea. In other words, er, what everyone's already said.
A father being responsible for his daughter's sexuality is what the Taliban believes, too. You may want to remind your sister of this.
Oh yeah, and I meant to say this earlier, but I apologize for all the grammatical errors in the OP; I was in a bit of a rush to get somewhere after finishing it and didn't really have time to proofread.
I think that your mom and step dad need to get her away from your father. They need to take her away from that church and put her back in one that isn't so misogynistic. You as her older sister need to ensure that this happens, even if it means threatening your mom and step dad to file for custody of her yourself. No one should have to put up with misogynists especially not young girls at the hands of their father. You need to do something and you need to do it now.
Believe me, they've tried time and time again to get custody of her. She makes up stuff about my mom to make my dad look like the better parent. They've been battling my dad since my parents divorced over 12 years ago and he's drained so much money from them they just can't do that much anymore. It's horrible.
I don't know if your sister is up for any feminist literature but I suggest The Purity Myth. I'm reading it now and it's truly fantastic and addresses so many of these points in clear, direct and even funny ways. It's not too long and I think, if she's willing, could really open up her eyes to a lot of this stuff.
From what I've read of The Purity Myth, it really does sound like good recommended reading for her. I'm going to buy it for my 17 year old sister. I understand where you're coming from- it's not so much being abstinent as it is about this garbage that we have to remain pure and that this basic human act will make us "unpure." Also, the fact that there's no pressure for men to stay pure is complete bullshit. The Purity Myth really seems to address all this issues and I bet if she reads it, she'll see the abstinence movement in a completely new light.
Also, I recommend this article: http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/religion/2008/01/25/eve-was-a-risk-taker-not-a-temptress-or-victim.html. It's by a female author about the Creation story and it doesn't buy into this idea about Eve being the fall of man and therefore making all women deserving of punishment and submissiveness. It's not a perfect article but I think if religious people have to hear one version all the time it's only fair that we see how other people interpret Biblical stories. It completely changed my view of the Creation story.
I have a close friend who is choosing to stay abstinent until marriage. When one of her friends had unprotected sex for the first time, it was actually my abstinent friend buying her condoms and encouraging her to get std testing. It was definitely cool to see that even though she didn't want to have sex herself, she was doing it because it made her happy and she clearly isn't clueless about contraceptive either. I'm trying to encourage my own sister to be the same. She's already told me that sex won't be happening for her until she's at least 18. Still, it doesn't hurt her to know about contraceptive at this point either.
Thanks guys! I've read the Purity Myth as well and I agree it would be great for her to read it. My problem is that I think that if I give her a book about why the notion of "purity" is not good she'll assume I'm just trying to change her decision and not trying to just get her to think about it. She's very stubborn.
I have some friends who are abstinent until marriage and yet don't buy the idea that it's their entire identity, nor are they against other people getting the info they need about safe sex. Hell, despite being a virgin myself, I've made sure I know everything I need to know about how to keep myself safe for when I do have sex. I'd just like my sister to get a healthier idea of her sexuality than the very skewed, misogynistic one her church is giving her.
I understand what you're saying about stubborness, I'm very stubborn myself at times. Maybe if you gave her the book but also talked to her about it beforehand. If you explained that you were not trying to say that abstinence is wrong or anything and that that is not what the book is about. It is more about the idea of purity and how these labels hurt women regardless of what they're doing or not doing sexually and we can't just put women into these little boxes of "pure" and "unpure."
But I think you need to get away from the whole "I think waiting until marriage is silly" idea. I understand that's your belief, but if you start a conversation with her that way (or even just mention it at some point in the conversation), she's going to shut down. Even if you're trying to say that abstinence is a fine choice, she's still just going to hear you calling her choice silly. If you take out language like that maybe she won't be as stubborn because it won't sound as much to her like you're trying to change her mind about abstinence.
That's a good idea! Thanks for the advice!
I don't know if you're still looking at comments so I'll try to say this briefly. I think you'd both benefit from taking a break from talking about this. Seeming like you trying to convince her to change which will probably just make her more confident in her beliefs. But then if she makes a comment about you again (or someone else) related to being slutty or about purity, then you can say you haven't been criticizing her decisions or beliefs lately, so she shouldn't judge yours. Why should her morals apply to everyone? What seems most possible is that she could at least judge other people less and I have a theory that if you judge other people less you judge yourself less.
And she is 16. I wanted to abstain till marriage at 16 too but it didn't happen.
Yeah, I'm going to keep looking at the comments for a while. I'm liking most of the suggestions here. :)