Being one of only two women in a office of men leads to some interesting discussions.
We got on to the topic of women-only gyms and insurance. The men all felt this was completely sexist and discriminatory. I don't know how I really feel about this. I had a look through the Feministing archives to see what sort of things have been said about it in the past.
On one hand there are many women who don't feel safe and would prefer to just get on with their workout in peace and without worry. One of the men in the office, who nearly lost his life to black male who hijacked him, said that this traumatic event meant he didn't feel safe when a black person walked down his road as he has no way of telling whether this person is a criminal or not. Would it be okay to simply make his street a whites only area so he could feel safe and not have to worry? Or could he form a straight men only gym if he feels ogled by gay men in the changing room of his current gym? Although they are completely different issues, the logic is technically the same.
On the other hand this seems to be an easy-out to a problem that would be better addressed head on. Wouldn't it be better to have a co-ed gym where women (or men) were given practical ways to deal with unwanted attention? But will this be enough to ensure their protection?
Are the differences between gender enough of a reason to promote things like segregated gyms, even if the logic it uses can't be applied to other areas? Most places still have segregated bathrooms based on the similar issues as to why people might want segregated gyms.
As for the insurance issue, I did point out that all insurance companies will discriminate based on various categories a person falls into - age for example.
I'm interested to hear what other people think about this topic. It may be more progressive not to segregate, but what about safety? Is gender enough to advocate for certain types of segregation when other types based on age or race are considered inappropriate?
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Is the rationale behind it really safety, though?
My current gym has a women's-only room (my first one didn't), and it's presented as a way for women to work out without being intimidated by the manly equipment and experienced men. There aren't very many free weights in it (and the free weights that ARE there are very light), lots of weight machines, some cardio equipment, etc.
When I first started working out, it WAS pretty intimidating walking up to the rack of weights and picking up a very light one when there was a bunch of more experienced people (mostly men, but women too) working out with really impressively heavy weights. But I was like, fuck the idea of being scared off into my own little room where I could work out without people noticing my inexperience. Furthermore, I've never even considered myself NOT safe at either gym I've belonged to - the spaces are all very open and usually filled with people, including employees.
The only women's-only gym I'm aware of myself is Curves, and it seems a little ridiculous - from what my mom has said, they mainly use weight machines, which don't provide the same workout you'd get with free weights. I don't want to be pandered to as a female with less-effective equipment.
"When I first started working out, it WAS pretty intimidating walking up to the rack of weights and picking up a very light one when there was a bunch of more experienced people (mostly men, but women too) working out with really impressively heavy weights."
That's a very good point, too.
To play devil's advocate here - because I'm not opposed to the idea of women-only gyms - that intimidation is also the reason that I (a cis male) don't use the weight room. I haven't lifted since college, and I know I'd feel intimidated by the large number of experienced weightlifters in my gym. (Compounding the difficulty is the fact that I go to the university gym - so those experienced weightlifters are also, more often than not, immature undergraduates.)
I've often wished that there was a private "learner's" gym for those of us who want to get into lifting but (a) don't have experience and (b) don't have the money to pay a personal trainer.
I signed up at the local fitness club, which also happens to be the place "serious" fitness buffs like bodybuilders (including competitive), powerlifters, triathletes, etc., work out/hang out, because my community is rather small. Yes, it was full service with a wealth of class activities included in the price like karate, aerobics, step, etc., but it just never felt right. The people there look too fit and experienced for me to belong. It was also where I used to work out when I did strength and fitness training during summer break from college over 20 years ago, back when I was 125 lbs. and 8.6% body fat, 45 pounds ago. Things had changed little if at all since then. (As I have mentioned before, all the fitness trainers happen to be women.)
The next day, I discovered the brand new YMCA pool with fitness center, which was also 1/3 cheaper per month, and I can discontinue and resume my membership without penalty. In stark contrast to the fitness club, the YMCA was clearly a place for the family. To use the exercise room, one had to be at least 13 years of age, but it was clearly a place where beginners could feel comfortable. Example: even someone currently out of shape like myself can use about half of the maximum weight on the machines. Average looking people use the exercise room and are not ashamed to set a weight machine at five or ten pounds. There are no men grunting and clanking 400 or 500 lb. olympic barbells, shouting encouragement at each other ("C'mon, man! One more! One more! No cheats!), calling a 135 lb. bench press "pussy weights", or posing in front of the mirrors. Of course. People like that prefer free weights and would stick to the fitness club (or my university's athletes' weight room). So did I 20 years ago. There is a trainer at the YMCA, a youngish and fit man, who instructs for no additional fee. I have watched him patient and professional with total beginners.
I went back to the fitness club and canceled my membership.
YMCA with *exercise room*, not a fitness center.
I think the race thing doesn't work because your co-worker is reacting to an isolated event and a culture of racism, whereas women are generally subjected to a lifetime of condemning and frightening sexism along with the culture of sexism. The homosexual argument is slightly more along the lines of what you're communicating, except that while it's uncomfortable to be ogled, I sincerely doubt all gay men are openly ogling straight men in such masculine places as gyms, again, due to sexism and homophobia.
I don't know what I think about women-only gyms. I was thinking about women-only colleges just this morning and was wondering if it's really beneficial to segregate yourself. Are there men-only colleges and would we think that was sexist? I dunno!
I'm never concerned about my safety at a gym. Sometimes I'll feel uncomfortable because I don't think I look my best--sweating, maybe I'm doing something wrong, maybe my pudge is sticking out in front of men who might be interested in me.
But you know, I just get over it.
I think women's gyms are used not so much because women feel safer in them, but because women feel less intimidated by them. Gyms can be intimidating; I think that women who don't feel attractive often feel judged when they exercise in public. The lack of men means less judgment. In addition, all to often, women are hit on in gyms- some women are not comfortable with that and may not choose to work out if they have to face that atmosphere. I've also met women who wanted a woman's only gym for religious reasons. One lady I spoke to said that she wouldn't be able to exercise if she didn't have a woman's only space, as her religion would not allow it.
Now, I want to be clear, I would have no objection if men had the desire to form their own men's only gym. But I doubt that would happen for the above reasons, because most men would not feel as intimidated by women. Men's bodies are not generally as judged and commented on as women's bodies are. The religious reasons might hold for some men, but many religions place more restrictions on women in public than on men in public.
I use a coed gym now. But I might consider a women's only gym if I moved where one was available.
Joan
This is exactly what I was thinking.
Women tend to want to have separate gyms because of the fact that when we are out in public, we are often considered public property where it is okay to ogle and make comments about our bodies. When working out in a gym, some women just don't want to have to deal with that.
On another note, I've always gone to co-ed gyms. There is a strange possessiveness that I've noticed over the free-weights by men. Whenever I wanted to do some basic curls or work on individual muscle groups, I get stared at until I leave. I just feel like they're waiting for me to "screw up" in my form so that they can come over and tell me the correct way to lift weights and shame me from coming back into their area. While I'm not intimidated, I'm more uncomfortable and aware of male presence than in any other areas of the gym. It feels like there's a sign that's been posted that says "No girls allowed" in the free weight areas.
I've never felt unsafe in a gym before, though.
Men's bodies are not generally as judged and commented on as women's bodies are.
That's an interesting comment... not to discount your statement, which I absolutely agree is true on a societal level and probably at the gym as well, but in my experience, the gym is where I've experienced the most body anxiety. When I'm surrounded by guys who are in shape - and some who are considerably more athletic than merely "in shape" - I feel quite self-conscious about the fact that I'm not in shape, that I'm a bit pudgy around the middle, that I haven't lifted weights for over a decade now. There's a whole bunch of junior-high-esque neurosis, self-consciousness, and self-judgment that comes over me - and, I'd imagine, over other men as well - when I'm in that setting.
I think there's something to be said for the idea of making gyms safe spaces for people of all genders, sizes, shapes, etc. I have no idea how to go about that, as my issues with the gym are much more related to my own personal anxieties than to anything anyone's ever said or done to me in that setting as an adult, but it's definitely a question we should be asking, given the number of people who avoid the gym - and possibly avoid better health and longer/happier life - due to self-consciousness and feelings of judgment by themselves or by others.
When I started in my university's athletic weight room in 1986, I was 5'6" and weighed 115 lbs. I was in a weight room with football players who went on to play professional football (well over six feet and 200 lbs), who were bench pressing 500 lbs., or putting over 1,000 lbs. on the leg press machine. There were also guys who were into powerlifting and olympic style weightlifting, fully suited and gloved up, with weight belts, grunting and exhaling as they pulled and pushed up eight 45 lb. plates on a 45 lb. bar, then dropping them down on the mat.
And I was trying to share equipment with them, squeezing in between their sets, using a third or a quarter of the weight.
It's about the least manly I ever felt. In the end, I managed to about double my strength in about a year and a half, but knew I would never compare to those who had the genes to be large and powerful. I wouldn't even be able to run from such people, because they could do 40 yard sprints in three and a half seconds, do 48 inch vertical leaps, or run (not jog) for miles at a time. They conditioned themselves to take full speed hits from men of comparable size and strength, rammed themselves into sleds weighing 800 lbs. and walked off injuries. It was at that point that I gave up on fitness, until I got to Japan, where people looked like me and someone like myself (5'7" 140 lb. Asian) was actually considered physically attractive, despite more stereotypical westerners also being around.
I agree that safety really isn't the primary issue at all, it is about women being intimidated in what is typically a tesosterone fueled male dominated environment. However, small or inexperienced males probably feel even more intimidated because they are actually comparing themselves to these big, muscular guys and they have to share a locker room with them. I like female only gyms. I just like the lower key vibe and I like knowing I won't be leered at. But I could get leered at anywhere else,too, and it wouldn't be legally justified to segregate me from the men in those places (school, work, the beach, the mall).
> I would have no objection if men had the desire to form their own men's only gym. But I doubt that would happen for the above reasons, because most men would not feel as intimidated by women
Actually, there are men-only gyms. Men use them exactly for the same reason: They don't want to expose their current non-perfect body to women.
What I wonder about is why men get all offended at the idea of a women-only space. A lot of places are spaces that men would prefer to only have men, or at least a masculine-attitude-only place. Just because women choose to go to places like these does not mean they are any less man-oriented.
I don't really have an opinion about Curves.. I understand why women wouldn't want to work out around men if they experience discomfort on a regular basis... but I really just wonder why men seem to care so much when they aren't catered to and excluded for once.
Most are probably feigning objection (when they really don't care) just to complain that they couldn't have their men-only golf course, so women shouldn't be able to have women-only gyms.
Its knee-jerk MRA counter-reaction to feminism generally -- along the lines of the guys that complain (or sue) because men are not hired to wait tables at Hooters. They don't actually want to wait tables at Hooters -- they just want to complain and point-out contrived "hypocrisy", as evidence that we "feminazis" are actually misandrists, and thus that feminism is a sham.
kbz
I think at least in part it's the perception (which may or may not be accurate) that women are forcing their way into any and all male-only spaces while keeping female-only spaces for themselves.
"I really just wonder why men seem to care so much when they aren't catered to and excluded for once."
Because a lot of men have trouble understanding that sexism is not quite the two-way street they believe it is. To some men, women-only spaces are discriminatory because they choose to ignore the fact that most public recreation was men-only for most of human history. And, some men have problems grasping the extreme discomfort and fear many women feel at being leered at and ogled in traditionally men-only spaces (you know, the entire public sphere).
Those whiney males need to shut up and get over it. this is NOT sexism!
Many women feel more safe in an all-female gym to avoid the ogling male gaze (admit it, it happens), to avoid getting hit on by guys, and not to worry about wearing certain gym clothes that reveal the SHAPE of your body.
It's also a religious/modesty issue. as a Muslim woman, I know many conservative, religious Muslim women who are NOT comfortable going to a co-ed gym and preferring to stick with a female gym. The same also goes for female hospitals, too. My cousin gave birth twice in a female hospital in Liverpool, UK and said it was such a nice, relaxing experience.
whatever offense men may take to women only spaces stem from the position women take that men only spaces are anti women and must be destroyed. otherwise men wouldn't care.
that response was to lilith
Destroyed? Creating a separate gym for women isn't destroying the original space, just creating an alternative space.
Obviously from my comment up above, I take a bit of offense to the women's-only gyms/room, but I think you're being a bit hyperbolic here.
i think you misread my post. coed gyms aren't, in my opinion, all male spaces. i was referring to the attack on all male schools and clubs like Augusta. Many feminists seeks to destroy those spaces and the term "all boys" club has come to have a negative connotation in part because of this movement. nevertheless, there are others that seek to create and maintain women only spaces. that hypocrisy offends many man
I'm will never be convinced by a hypocrisy argument that fails to consider the status quo exercise of power-- especially when it comes to educational institutions and business networking groups...
I will never, that is...
If your boss is a woman, and she attends a female only gym, especially if her boss attends the same gym, the female coworkers have a significant advantage in promotion because they can also become members of the same gym.
How does the situation in other companies, affect the situation in a specific company? Or do you propose that there are should simply some companies where women can be promoted and other companies where men are promoted?
*should simply be
See my comment below to your other comment.
This is an interesting topic to bring up! I find it hard to know where I fall on it, as in most questions about women-only spaces. On the one hand, anything involving segregation makes me slightly nervous, and I'm also concerned about how "women" are defined. I think in any situation like this, transpeople should be included because there is a similar rationale for needing a safe space. On the other hand, I have to admit that having rarely had an opportunity to experience a really safe space, the idea of a women-only gym is attractive.
One other little piece of food for thought, though. I've always thought of safe spaces, especially being a lesbian, as a woman-only thing. This weekend at the Omega Institute, a group of us decided to go to the sauna, and I was naked and at first a little weirded out that there were men there. But then I became more comfortable because Omega, despite being a co-ed space, really gives off a safe, violence-free vibe. So I think that a safe space can be co-ed, if everyone there is peaceful and respectful. It would be interesting to try to establish that in a gym, for example, requiring members to sign a statement that they will refrain from verbal abuse, unwanted looking at others bodies', etc.
I don't really see a problem with women's only gyms. From a business standpoint it allows a more efficient setup of equipment and classes, and there's the bonus that people who otherwise might not go to a mixed gym would be able to get their exercise on.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with women's only insurance. Women have higher health care costs than men, so unless you are trying to increase your cost, then there's no reason to do it. Insurance is all about pooling risk.
They might be talking about the fact that women usually have lower auto insurance costs than men because we have lower accident rates on average...
It's a tough question. Personally, I prefer to exercise totally alone. I want to be able to be really present in my body, feeling how my muscles work and my heart beats. The second anyone else is there to watch me, I feel judged- by women just as much as by men. Even my own husband, whose only judgment is "damn, you look hot" is a serious distraction- because for me, that time isn't about being hot, it's about being in my own body. So I usually stick to simple things I can do at home like walking and stretching, or working out with 5-10 lb weights. For people who like more intensive things though, I understand that a gym is necessary because the equipment is expensive and takes up a lot of space. I don't know that I'd feel physically unsafe in a gym, just judged, and I don't think that feeling would go away in a women-only gym. Also, I'd be very, very concerned about trans misogyny. Attempts to create "women only" spaces in the past have generally degraded into transphobic boundary marking, in a way that doesn't do anybody any good and causes trans women serious harm.
Maybe it would be more constructive to work on changing gym culture than to separate gyms by gender. To regulate things people have been commenting on, like specific groups of men lording over the free weights and being disrespectful of newbies.
I am a college student who works out every day at the school gym. The gym is coed, which is fine because there are by far more guys than girls on my campus, so having two separate gyms just doesn't make sense Plus, my gym partners are all male so if they were separate I would lose my work out partners. However, I must say that when I go into the boxing room to get out some stress and anger that has built up over the day I am extremely intimidated. There are never any girls in the room and always at least five or six guys who stare at me the entire time I am in there. I would definitely feel more comfortable if they would have a separate room where women could go box.
Interesting. No analysis here. All I have is an anecdote from my own personal experience. When I was 21 I was living with my parents and waitressing. I went to a gym most days to work out for an hour or 2. My work hours varied so I'd show up at all different times of day with no set schedule.
A very muscular and I thought somewhat strange older white guy who worked as a trainer at that gym started chatting with me sometimes when I used the weight room. I chatted back, but gave a lot of what I thought (at the time) were obvious end of conversation cues, like "well, I really need to focus on my workout now." Those never worked to my satisfaction.
Pretty soon, I started to avoid lifting weights when he was there. Then he would seek me out while I was working out on the aerobic machines. Again, the subtle i'm-not-interested-in-you messages I thought I was giving clearly were just not having the intended effect.
I started practicing other avoidance tactics-- for example, I'd take note of the days and times when he wasn't there and I'd aim to repeat those days and times in hopes I'd have a workout free of his attention.
In retrospect, I could have told him something like "I'm here to workout and I'm not interested in a friendship or other relationship with you socially, so please leave me alone." I could have talked to the management, which perhaps would have been the best option, since I highly doubt I was the only client he was pursuing. But that seemed way too difficult to me then. It also seemed really "mean" and so I chose avoidance.
When an all-women's gym opened nearby, I did a trial membership for a month or so. It was okay, but it was a new concept then and the gym offered far fewer services-- no yoga classes, no spinning. So ultimately I didn't switch... I kept avoiding gym stalker until I moved away a few months later. I personally didn't really want a women's only gym. No other male person that I remember caused me any worry, but the one who did just made me so uptight and anxious.
Part of the failure was my own, I think. I wanted to be nice and liked by everyone. I didn't want to make a big issue and maybe ruin someone's career. I was doing what I was socialized to do: think about how my choices might negatively impact the life of a random, strange, older white man who was bothering me. If he had been a man of color or any woman or teenager, I may very well have acted differently to the same relentless actions taken to seek me out. I suspect I may have been more assertive.
I'm intrigued and troubled by that last part, but it seems true to me, no sense pretending that part's not there. It's pretty clear to me I've been socialized to respond to perceived classifications of people differently, and I've learned that lesson well.
Just so you all know, the owner of Curves was giving money to anti-choice organizations. "Safe space for women" indeed!
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/curves.asp
Of course, since those Operation Rescue losers are apparently broke, maybe they stopped?
Thanks for this! I've read this before I think, but forgot.
I have been thinking about women-only gyms myself after Sodini's killing spree and this NYT article that ran last week: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/health/nutrition/10fitness.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=women,%20exercise,%20gym,%20burqa&st=cse
I think we should all be aware that women-only gyms and insurance coverage issues could significantly affect Muslim women in America. And we should be thinking about this demographic more when considering whether women-only gyms should be a viable option for all.
However, what about the same argument used against many men's social clubs? Many managers are female, and many of them go to the gym, an enterprising subordinate who wants to get more face time with management can go to the same gym. Much as one might become a member of the same golf course. Yet if the manager is female, and attends a gym which is limited to women, that predisposes the situation to gender discrimination because a primary route of promoting oneself is closed to the male subordinates.
I agree that would be a problem. Is it a reality, though? That would take some investigation.
I've heard stories from men who have faced that situation, where they basically hit a wall in their career path because their underneath a female manager and they aren't able to go through the full motions. They didn't feel that they could bring it up as an issue of discrimination because they viewed it as simultaneous career suicide and an endeavor which was terribly unlikely to succeed. So ultimately they had to choose to simply find another job which didn't have the barrier.
Then perhaps one of your goals may be to work with poli-sci or sociological statistical tools to make a systematic study of this sort of phenomenon possible. Those sorts of results strike me as much stronger than anecdotes, which is also all I can offer in the way of gym stories.
I agree with an above comment that this is feigning marginalization. So men may or may not be able to network at the women's only gym. How many women are given the chance to network at the golf course or the strip club or the hockey game? Here you are calling out sexism as it pertains to you missing opportunities. Where were you when women had to create these networking opportunities for themselves because they were excluded from so many others?
I just recently moved away from Utah, where I lived for 2 years. during my time there I tried to find a gym that had good hours, nice facilities and was in a convenient location. There were 2 women only gyms close by my home but both closed around 7:00 on weekdays, 2:00 pm on Saturdays and were never open on Sunday. This was mostly a cultural issue since almost all women over the age of 18 in the Utah suburbs are married with children and Mormon. But still, I felt like they were saying "yes we want women but not you."
I think that when you start excluding people it gets kind of hard to stop. This isn't always a bad thing, for example, Curves. Curves isn't for women who run marathons, it is for women to get into shape, plus they don't really call themselves "gyms".
Where I am living now I can't afford to buy a a gym membership because I am a student again. The School Fitness Center is mostly weights and weight machines and you have to sign up for cardio equipment (during peak hours the weight is 1-1.5 hours). To be honest I would rather go have a graduate student fitness center than a women's gym, if that were the case I would never have to wait for an elliptical machine.
I just think we need to be careful when we say women only gyms. From the comments it sounds like what we mean is gyms with light free-weights, classes, and cardio equipment that doesn't actually mean women.
One of the men in the office, who nearly lost his life to black male who hijacked him, said that this traumatic event meant he didn't feel safe when a black person walked down his road as he has no way of telling whether this person is a criminal or not. Would it be okay to simply make his street a whites only area so he could feel safe and not have to worry? Or could he form a straight men only gym if he feels ogled by gay men in the changing room of his current gym? Although they are completely different issues, the logic is technically the same.
Not even close to the same, not even technically. As a man who is straight and white, your coworker is a member of the privileged class, whether he wants to be or not. Feeling threatened or uncomfortable by an individual from a marginalized class is nowhere near the same situation as feeling oppressed by the oppressive class.
The difference between most existing male-only spaces and female-only spaces is that male-only spaces become so by excluding women. Female-only spaces become so by including women. Likewise with other privilege-class-only spaces and marginalized-class-only spaces. Exclusion of the privileged class is frequently necessary to retain the inclusivity for the marginalized class. It is telling that men who get their knickers in a twist over women-only spaces propose to even the score by establishing men-only spaces. There's another option - work to break down the barriers to women's inclusion in what purport to be co-ed spaces.
Based on the discussion, it seems to me that religion warrants a women-only gym. Other than that, I've seen plenty of programs, classes, etc that focus on increasing female confidence in the gym. I think that is a good way to remain co-ed but still encourage female participation.
I would just like to chime in that I attend a women-only gym, and it has been a very rewarding experience.
In high school I began weight training and was on our school's co-ed "Power Lifting" team. I attended a local co-ed gym everyday and was one of those "experienced" lifters people are talking about in the comments. Even at this age though I realized a beef I had with my gym. All of the equipment was sized for body building men! I often could not adjust the equipment to really fit my body, and would just make do with what I had.
I continued on like this while attending my college's gym all through school. Since graduating I decided to try out our local girls-only place because it was close to where I lived. I was amazed when I walked in to see smaller equipment sized for my body! Now I can work out with out worrying about hurting myself on equipment that is really too large for me.
Do your co-ed gyms feature equipment made for women? Mine never did. I should also mention that my new gym carries all the same kind of equipment as I would find in a co-ed gym...it's not just ab crunchers and thigh shapers. Also, the quality of the equipment is very high (I don't want you to think that it's all pink and not of high quality because it's "made for girls".)
I wanted to bring this up because everyone in the comments seems to be focusing on social reasons for female gyms. I do feel more comfortable at this current gym as I can wear what ever a like, and it has an overall positive atmosphere. (Oh, and it's not a Curves, as I will not give them a cent of my money ^_^)
I belonged to Living Well Lady when it existed, and loved it. Not only did I have to not worry about anyone "ogling" me at any point (if any lesbians did, I totally missed it), I was NEVER subjected to verbal abuse based on my gender or weight while I was working out there.
My sister worked out at a co-ed gym, and had a guy who, if he saw her there, would follow her around calling her fat, and then glare at her the entire time she was trying to work out. When she tried to report it to the front desk they said it was her word against his and they couldn't do anything about it. She wound up dropping the membership, and having to pay a penalty for cancelling it early.
The last gym I worked out at before my current gym was co-ed, and I had the privilege of dropping a weight on the foot of some young, dumb musclehead who felt the need to point out that he thought I was a whale. I dropped the weight, and apologized profusely for the weakness caused by my fat that made me drop that on his foot.
Yeah, I don't think he bought it either. He never came near me again, though.
I currently belong to a co-ed gym through work, but really don't have any problems. I put on my headphones, take a book for the cardio machines and ignore everyone else unless forced to interact.
But I understand why women like women's only gyms. I really do. And if Curves didn't belong to anti-choice jerkoffs and had real exercise equipment, I might be tempted.
I am also a member of a women's gym and I honestly do not think I would ever have gotten into better shape without this safe space to go to. Mine is definitely not a Curves, no pink or pastel anywhere, all the same equipment as a co-ed gym, the locker rooms just smell a bit of eucalyptus and lotion. For me it is very much about being able to relax and focus on my health, as I am deeply insecure and would be too mortified to say run on a treadmill, flab and all, if men were around sizing us up. We have male trainers and teachers so its not completely segregated, but all in all its a very positive space where I feel women of all ages, shapes and sizes feel comfortable and welcome.
On that same note many of my closest friends attended women-only colleges and I have seen how empowering and rewarding that experience was for them. Sure ideally women need to be able to make it in the real world with men all around, but as things are right now, that real world is incredibly stifling for women, so if we have to segregate at certain times to develop our minds and bodies, so be it.
The assumption is that somehow some target group: racial, gender, sexual orientation or otherwise must be up to no good and if we manage to prevent them from entering the gym, then we'll effectively limit the likelihood that anyone will be a victim of violent assault.
The problem with that assumption is that it's not as easy as summarily designating any particular group as wholly problematic. That's the same logic that goes into racial profiling. And as for gyms set up so that only women are allowed to be members, I know that many females believe that such places provide a sense of comfort and freedom of expression that a co-ed gym cannot provide. However, this degree of isolationism might be more comfortable, but if the ultimate aim is for us to live together not in spite of our difference, but because of them, I would hope we'd believe that incorporating everyone would be in everyone's best interest.
So, Comrade Kevin, now that you have warned us of the isolating dangers of all-female gyms, what are you doing to address the problems that cause women to seek out female-only gyms in the first place?
Why the snark? Why the hostility? Sometimes I think that posters on this site with masculine user names are attacked for things that others wouldn't. It's wholly inappropriate.
I agree with Comrade Kevin in that I think it's more productive for feminists to bring men and women together, as opposed to isolating them. So you feel intimidated at a gym...so? You have just as much a right to be there as anyone else. Chances are, too, that nobody else cares. The intimidation is probably all in your head. And as far as being oggled at, that happens pretty much everywhere, not just at the gym. I'm not about to avoid any place where I'm likely to get oggled. Women's only beaches? Pools? Nightclubs? Bars? Sidewalks? Buses?
That said, I'm not against women's only gyms. I especially feel for Muslim women. I just don't think it's a very feminist thing to advocate.
Women simply have to go to the gyms and create a presence. How do skinny or very fat men cope? This idea that even coed gyms are make spaces or male dominated will only change when women step up to the plate.
"How do skinny or very fat men cope?"
I avoid men who act tough or macho, and places they are likely to be. I only went to my university's athletes' gym, because it was nearby and free. I should point out that not even many female athletes went there, despite my university having awesome softball and volleyball teams, and it was their gym as well as the football team's gym.
You are right. The societal forces that encourage women to join women-only institutions are indeed a problem, and almost undoubtedly a bigger problem than isolationism at that.
So? That doesn't invalidate the point that isolationism is a problem, and that it probably isn't something that we want to encourage.
And really, don't we hear "why are you complaining about X when there is Y to worry about?" all too often in response to the issues that feminism seeks to address?
Summary of dormouse, ekpe, and unequivocal:
"So women are intimidated? Big deal. They should get over it and go to the gym b/c it is their responsibility to solve the problem of men being intimidating. Oh, and stop being so mean."
Comrade Kevin's comment, whether sie meant it to be or not, is concern trolling. "Oh, I'm just worried that this completely hypothetical problem might happen to women when they try to get away from what is a very real problem."
You want to prevent isolationism? Solve the harassment problem. Yeah, you. If you are worried about X, fucking do something about it.
Summary of dormouse, ekpe, and unequivocal:
"So women are intimidated? Big deal. They should get over it and go to the gym b/c it is their responsibility to solve the problem of men being intimidating. Oh, and stop being so mean."
Yes! That's precisely what I said! Thank you for paraphrasing me so effectively; I wish that I could "like" your comment multiple times.
Maybe next you could discuss how totally wrong of me it was to advocate kicking puppies for fun.
You're thoroughly misunderstanding what we are saying, or seeing what you want to in our words. It's not really worth it to try to discuss this, because you don't really seem into this whole civil exchange of ideas and opinions thing. You seem pretty set on rudeness. I know it's hard to respond to people respectfully (it's taking a lot of effort for me to hold back my inner snark right now), but I think any online discussion community would benefit if more people made a conscious effort to do so.
many have argued that women actually aren't intimidated or threatened at these gyms, but generally feel inadequate, though some use the word intimidated. which is why i raised the example of small or very fat men.
I highly doubt women who avoid coed gyms feel inadequate due to the men; I believe, as a number have stated, such women can do without the unwanted male attention or harassment, i.e., intimidation or feeling threatened.
If a woman feels "inadequate" comparing herself to other females in a coed gym, then she would probably not go to an all-woman gym, either, to compare herself against women there.
Being part of the lowest 5% of men by height, and lowest 5% for weight, I certainly felt inadequate in a gym with males.
Is it really expected that people will do things like joining the same gym as their boss to "get ahead"? I've never had a job where I'd want to hang out with my boss outside of work. Isn't it inappropriate for a boss to make promotion decisions based on personal friendships, no matter where the friendships occur? I'd say rather than worrying about whether the boss might join some club that not everyone can join (and there's a ton of possible reasons for that besides a gender exclusive club-- it could be far from where someone lives, too expensive, an activity they're not good at or interested in, etc), that the boss shouldn't be discussing work with employees outside of work, and shouldn't be basing any important work decisions on non-work conversations that happen in non-work locations.
I'm aware that this was the whole problem with country clubs and golf courses and stuff, but I still think I'd hate to have a job where I had to play golf with the boss on saturdays in order to get ahead. And the whole idea of basing promotions on who you play golf with seems just as bad to me as not letting certain people into the golf club in the first place.
This post is about whether female-only gyms are "sexist." But they exist because women are willing to spend their money on this service, rather then put up with the possible inconveniences or annoyances of a co-ed gym -- it's a type of business that exists because someone figured it would pay, not because someone chose to exclude men. Male-only social clubs or golf courses are potentially sexist because there's a long and insidious tradition of women being barred from public spaces (and the public discourse that goes on there). There's no corresponding tradition of men being unwelcome in public spaces. These gyms would only be "sexist" if they were government-funded, or if women had the privilege of access to much better or lower-cost facilities. As far as I know men still have plenty of gym options, and they're not burdened with poor service.
Dormouse writes: "I think it's more productive for feminists to bring men and women together, as opposed to isolating them. So you feel intimidated at a gym...so? You have just as much a right to be there as anyone else." Yes, but women aren't going to female-only gyms to promote feminism or end the problem of male-dominated public spaces. They go because they don't want fellow gym-goers trying to date them, they feel self-conscious grunting and sweating in front of men they've never met, or some related reason. They're willing to patronize a business that lets them avoid that potential discomfort. It's not particularly feminist or anti-feminist choice, as far as I can see.
It seems un-feminist in that it avoids rather than confronts the problem. The solution to sexism isn't to remove men from our lives, but try to repair gender dynamics.
I certainly understand why women want gyms to themselves, but I think I wouldn't ever go to one. Just because I feel like I shouldn't have to.
I don't think it is sexist at all. In fact there should be spaces that are not just safe for women but people belonging to the LGBTQQI community where they can work out without any fear. The more gyms the merrier. In fact maybe there should be plus sized gyms, where plus sized people would feel comfortable swimming in a pool or working out without getting strange looks from other people.
Just because you are "brave" enough to stand in the same space with people who are judging you or feel the need to make comments doesn't mean everyone wants to be subjected to that abuse. And if you do feel "brave" enough ask yourself why? It is much easier to feel that when you haven't experienced constant verbal abuse about how you look.
Haha... I feel so bad for your male friends, it must be hard carrying the burden of such sexism and discrimination.
This is the same kind of bull as your typical Pat Buchanan "reverse racism" whining. Racism and Sexism are about power, not making decisions based on race or sex. In a perfect world no one would have to be uncomfortable or afraid in a mixed sex gym, but we are not very close to that right now.