A few days ago there was a post about a Seventeen Magazine article regarding a woman who dated an abusive trans man who was outed when she called the police. He later explained that he was scared that she would break up with him if she knew. In the article she says “The thing is, I would have stayed with him if he’d been honest. I loved him that much… But it was Derek’s lies that really broke my heart.”
The title of the article was “My Boyfriend Turned Out to be a Girl.” The poster was arguing that while the title was transphobic, the content of the article was not.
The fact that he was abusive was not the point of the article or the poster’s argument.
This sparked a long discussion which I believe merits its own post, so I am creating a new one here.
It’s not just the title of the article that was transphobic, it was the entire premise. It assumes that transgender people are obligated to come out to their romantic partners, and that if they don’t they’re liars. This is a highly transphobic position to take.
Trans men are real men, as are cisgender men. The only difference is that trans men are born with bodies that are incongruent with their internal sense of self, and as a result are socialized by society into the female role. In other words, who they are on the inside doesn’t match how they appear on the outside, and so they are raised as girls.
A trans man’s perception of himself as male, and identity as male, is just as real and valid as a cisgender mans identity and sense of self. When a trans man transitions he isn’t being deceptive – just the opposite. He is being himself, despite everything he was socialized to believe about who he is.
If he uses medical interventions, it’s not to deceive people, or even to “become” a man. He’s always been a man. The purpose is to bring his body into congruence with who he really is. It’s his unmodified body that had been the deception.
A trans man might allow people to assume that he is cisgender, and might even lie about it if asked, but this is because our society forces him to do so. We force him to choose between having one of the most basic and fundamental parts of his identity respected, or disclosing private information about his body.
Imagine if you were placed in that position. For those of you who are cisgender women: what if society decided that anyone who’s had a hysterectomy or mastectomy is no longer a real woman? Maybe society decided that such people are men. Suppose you had cancer and required one of these procedures, thus making you a man in the eyes of society. Suppose that society now expects you to take on male gender roles and live as a man, because after the procedure you’re no longer considered a woman.
Would you cooperate? Would you feel like societies expectations of you are fair?
Suppose you don’t cooperate and instead decide “fuck society, I’m still a woman!” You continue to live the way you’ve always lived and be the person you’ve always been, knowing that your identity as a woman would be rejected if people found out. You also know that there are a lot of people who would hate you and even hurt you if they knew, because your body no longer conforms to their standards of womanhood.
How inclined would you feel to disclose the fact that you’ve had surgery?
Imagine society accused people in your position of being liars. Imagine having to hear people describe women like you as frauds. Imagine being told that not disclosing your surgery to your sexual partners makes you an exploitative rapist – that they have the right to know so that they can decide whether or not you’re the type of person they want to consent to sex with, and thinking “I’m just me! Having surgery doesn’t make me any type of person!”
Imagine that you enter a romantic relationship with someone. It doesn’t work out and you break up with them. Later you get outed and you explain to them that you didn’t tell them because you were scared they would leave you. Their response is: “I would have stayed with you if you’d been honest. I loved you that much, but your lies broke my heart.”
To top it off, imagine hearing people comment about what a nice person your partner is, since they would have stayed with you, had you just been honest.
That’s the world that transgender people are forced to navigate.
Think about that if you’re ever tempted to say that transgender people are obligated to come out to their partners.
82 Comments
true true true true true. Thank you for pointing out bigotry and privilege wherever it lurks.
Honestly, I hesitate to comment on this, but I feel like it is important to discuss. Perhaps I am an outlier, but I would consider this important information to share with a romantic partner simply because it could be very important to them. Before consenting to sex with a partner, I disclose everything that I think could be relevant to their decision. I would like to think that my partners would also disclose anything that might be relevant to me. Sometimes that means telling people something that you know shouldn’t make a difference or wouldn’t make a difference to you, but that would be a big deal to your partner. In my opinion, your partner’s psychological state should be important to you, so it would be important to not do anything that could cause them psychological distress.
As a cisgender woman, I don’t have the experience of being a transgender person and can’t speak to that. I can speak to the experience of feeling betrayed if a partner does not disclose something they know could be an issue for me. That situation is precisely why I am so open with my own history when discussing sex with a romantic partner. I would rather have the decision upfront and fully informed so that my partner never feels that I was dishonest – even if it is something that I think shouldn’t matter to them or that in a perfect world would be a complete non-issue.
Things I disclose: age, gender, sexual orientation, basic sexual history, std status, marital status, relationship status, parenthood status, kink status, purpose (casual sex, relationship, etc.), and anything that I feel will be important to my partner based on what I know about them. This can include anything from political or religious views to the fact that I have tattoos – whatever I think might matter to them in their decision. I also ask if there is anything they would like to know about me that I didn’t cover. It probably isn’t the most romantic or exciting conversation they have ever had, but it means I get to go into the sexual relationship knowing that I was as open as possible. Does this mean that everyone has to be this open when going into a relationship? Obviously not and that is up to each person to decide their own comfort level. However, I reserve the right to choose not to have sex with anyone who doesn’t feel comfortable sharing the same level of disclosure with me.
if you can’t discuss this sort of thing with a person then you shouldn’t be having sex with them. I don’t know how someone can be okay with being so intimate with another person and not be okay sharing that sort of thing with their partner. I agree that transgendered individuals have the right to tell who they want and how they want but their sexual partners or their gf/bf should be one of the people that they want to tell, and if they are truly fearful of what their partner might say or how they will respond then how can they trust them with their body in such an intimate fashion. I personally think that sharing that information with your partner before hand is protection for the transgendered person because it means stopping and thinking about who they want to have sex with, something that a hell of a lot more of us need to start doing
I understand what you’re saying and I agree with you to some degree. It is up to individuals to decide how much of themselves to disclose to their partners before sex unless it is something that might be harmful to their health. Personally, I’m always against actively lying to romantic partners and think people should be truthful when asked directly, or else forgo the sex until one feels comfortable in answering whatever question has been asked. However, if it doesn’t seem important to either participant in the moment, it’s within each individual’s right to not disclose everything.
HOWEVER, once the truth has been found out, the partner who has withheld information does not get to dictate how the other should feel about it. If they feel betrayed or lied to, that’s how they feel and that’s the risk one takes for leaving out the truth. And, also personally, I would never want to have a relationship with someone who was willing to risk hurting or betraying me by not being fully upfront or wholly truthful.
It’s so hard to talk about this when there are competing definitions of truth going on. It seems like the original article calls a trans man a liar for calling himself a man. (I’m not 100% sure that’s the contention though, it seemed like the article might have been talking about him cheating as a form of lying as well). I totally disagree with this characterization- a trans man IS a man, and saying so isn’t a lie. But I can also see, as a partner, wanting to know that although my partner is a man, he has physical characteristics that are commonly considered female. I don’t think this is a first-date conversation, I don’t think it’s any of the general public’s damn business, and I think the magazine article handled the incident in a horrible fashion. But I do still feel like there will come a time within the relationship when the level of intimacy requires disclosure about this.
Your example about the hysterectomy makes a lot of sense to me (as a cis woman). It would be completely awful to be called a liar for presenting as a woman after a hysterectomy, awful and unfair. But I would tell my partner, once we got to a certain point. Over the course of our relationship my partner and I have slowly disclosed all kinds of medical facts about ourselves, as well as our deeply-held values. It’s all part of who I am.
My overall point is, I get that being trans is mostly nobody’s business but one’s own, and that a lot of trans people are unjustly considered to be devious liars. But I’m not entirely convinced that it’s *never* necessary to disclose the fact that you’re trans to your partner.
I know that my experience isn’t the same as a trans person’s, and I’m still thinking about this issue. I apologize if I’m contributing to an ignorant stance, and I’m personally committed to continuing to learn about transgender issues. Thank you for your input, and I’ll keep thinking about it.
It’s so hard to talk about this when there are competing definitions of truth going on. It seems like the original article calls a trans man a liar for calling himself a man. (I’m not 100% sure that’s the contention though, it seemed like the article might have been talking about him cheating as a form of lying as well). I totally disagree with this characterization- a trans man IS a man, and saying so isn’t a lie. But I can also see, as a partner, wanting to know that although my partner is a man, he has physical characteristics that are commonly considered female. I don’t think this is a first-date conversation, I don’t think it’s any of the general public’s damn business, and I think the magazine article handled the incident in a horrible fashion. But I do still feel like there will come a time within the relationship when the level of intimacy requires disclosure about this.
Your example about the hysterectomy makes a lot of sense to me (as a cis woman). It would be completely awful to be called a liar for presenting as a woman after a hysterectomy, awful and unfair. But I would tell my partner, once we got to a certain point. Over the course of our relationship my partner and I have slowly disclosed all kinds of medical facts about ourselves, as well as our deeply-held values. It’s all part of who I am.
My overall point is, I get that being trans is mostly nobody’s business but one’s own, and that a lot of trans people are unjustly considered to be devious liars. But I’m not entirely convinced that it’s *never* necessary to disclose the fact that you’re trans to your partner.
I know that my experience isn’t the same as a trans person’s, and I’m still thinking about this issue. I apologize if I’m contributing to an ignorant stance, and I’m personally committed to continuing to learn about transgender issues. Thank you for your input, and I’ll keep thinking about it.
damn, sorry about the double post
Ok. First, heterosexual people are not heterosexual based on who looks feminine or looks masculine. There ARE masculine looking heterosexual women and feminine looking heterosexual men.
Second, the heterosexual part is less about gender identity and much more about body anatomy. If it was all about who looked the part, ciswomen and cismen who looked like the opposite sex would be referred to as such.
Third, I think it takes an asshole of non-epic proportions to expect ME to have a vagina whilst I can not expect him to have a penis. Wait, an asshole of epic proportions.
Being trans, like anoy other medical issue is private. One that needs not to be disclosed UNTIL that medical issue is about to present itself. I think its wrong to wait until a woman is about to fellate your clitoris before telling her you don’t have a penis. Even if it were a cisman that, for whatever reason, did not have a penis. His partner should know this BEFORE they have sex.
We argue abstinence is a fail because its wrong to make people feel ashamed of wanting to have sex. That applies NOT JUST to homosexuals or queer people, but heterosexuals as well. There is nothing bad about wanting a penis inside of you, there is nothing wrong about wanting to penetrate a vagina.
On the question about hysterectomies. Would I call myself a woman? Fuck yeah I would because I am have always been one and nothing anyone would ever say could change that.
BUT would I tell a partner that? Particularly one who is specifically attracted to women with uteruses the way heterosexual men are attracted to people with vaginas? YES! Because he needs to know if I need a uterus for him to be with me, that I don’t have one. He’s not right for me and I’m not right for him.
If he wanted children and I married him and never said squat I’d be a HUGE asshole of epic proportions. Just like he would be if I married him and he’d had a vasectomy. The option to adopt is always there and if he lvoed me for me well guess what, he might just stay but to hide it or downright LIE (the way the ABUSIVE- since when did we start fucking dismissing ABUSE liek it wasn’t the point?- transman LIED about why he covered his breasts, amongst the many lies he had to tell to cheat on his girlfriend in the first palce) about it is dishonest. It’s me making a decision for him.
In an ideal world, everyone would disclose those things and the worst that would happen would be your partner breaking up with you in a peaceful fashion.
But that’s not the world we live in. Trans people have to deal with the incredible stigma that society places on being trans, and the very real threats to our safety that come with that. And that’s on top of the common human fear of rejection that everyone in relationships deals with. We have to weigh whether it’s safe to disclose, whether they’ll react better when they know us better, whether they’ll find out afterwards & how they’ll react then, the nature of the relationship (is it a one night stand, or a long-term relationship, or something in between), etc.
More important than whether trans people should disclose, or blaming them for things when they don’t, is changing society so that it’s safe for trans people to come out or not. Until then, discussion of what’s honest or truthful are missing part of the point.
In the previous post, I was the primary party that disagreed with the OP (in this post).
My position, simply stated, is this — to most people, the gender or percieved gender of a romantic partner is fundamental to the decision of whether to consent. To people that identify as homosexual or heterosexual, their sexual identity is closely tied to the gender of their sexual partners.
This is not to say that transgendered people aren’t “real” men or women … but to say that their romantic partners still retain the right to make the determination on their own whether they want to be in a relationship with a transgendered person. To obtain consent by withholding information is exploitative.
I agree completely that it is entirely up to a transgendered person how, when and to whom to come out. Non-disclosure is fully within their rights. Having sex with someone that does not merit disclosure is NOT within their rights. A transgendered person retains the right to withhold … but they must choose between (1) disclosing and having sex, or (2) not disclosing and not having sex. It is not ethical to withhold disclosure, but still have sex with a partner.
Consent, must be full, INFORMED and enthusiastic. If they don’t know, they can’t consent. If they can’t consent, you can’t have sex with them. Thus, if they don’t know … you can’t (ethically) have sex with them (the transitive property of consent?).
kbz
He disregarded his partner’s feelings so that he could protect himself from being dumped, that makes him a liar.
I wont use medical examples because being transgendered is not comparable to disease but rather national identity. Because even though a specific nationality may have some similar physical characteristics, the behavior and culture that nationality engages in, is learned. The same goes with gender.
Say for example that you were born in Germany and raised in a German home but you always felt like you didn’t quite fit in. Then you moved to the US. You really felt that you actually identify more with being a US citizen and so you presented yourself in such a manner. You got rid of your accent, you changed your name and participated in US society as a US citizen.
Then you started dating a US citizen, and that US citizen assumed you were also a US citizen because you presented yourself in such a way. That is until one day that person saw your passport and figured out that even though you presented yourself as a US citizen, you were of German nationality. Of course your partner would get upset, not because you were not a US citizen but because you omitted the fact that you grew up German. And your partner would feel hurt that you would think that it is okay to omit such an important part of your history. Then you say “well i was scared if i told you that you would dump me”.
Gender identity is learned through our interactions with people when we are children. We figure out what we are comfortable with, what we like and don’t like and then we pick something. Is there something wrong with this idea…NO! Everyone should be able to pick whichever gender they choose. In fact I do believe some Native American tribes had a third gender and children were allowed to choose whichever gender they wanted to be.
Personal accountability for one’s actions with a partner are genderless. He shouldn’t have lied about his past. That is probably what hurt his girlfriend, the fact that she shared with him her secrets and her past and he didn’t. That is why calling him a liar is not transphobic.
For the most part, I agree with you. I think the area where we part ways is specifically whether a responsibility to disclose comes into play when deciding on a sexual partner. For me, disclosure is an upfront process, even when I know it will likely end any possible relationship. For me, personally, I would be uncomfortable in a relationship with someone that was not able to offer me the same level of upfront disclosure. I think each person, whether cis, trans, or another category, must determine those boundaries for themselves and I feel that it is my responsibility as a person to take into account my potential partner’s boundaries as well as my own. I don’t expect everyone to have the same ideals of disclosure as me – I fully understand that I am far more open with my potential partners than many people. As a cis woman, I don’t face the same dangers and issues as a trans person. I am simply offering a view on how important disclosure can be to your partner and why I believe that all people should disclose important information before moving beyond friendship into a sexual relationship. I would never blame a trans person for choosing not to disclose, but I also wouldn’t choose to be in a relationship with them if they felt they couldn’t disclose that to me – same as if my partner failed to disclose that they were a parent, married, in a relationship, or any other status that was important to me. (All of this pre-supposes at least a minimum relationship. I don’t do one-night-stands, so I haven’t deeply examined how much disclosure I would want/give. I would imagine the situation could be quite different.)
“More important than whether trans people should disclose, or blaming them for things when they don’t, is changing society so that it’s safe for trans people to come out or not. Until then, discussion of what’s honest or truthful are missing part of the point.”
Fair. This totally makes sense to me.
I think this is less about the experience of being trans and more about when to disclose personal information to a partner.
I’m on the dissenting side of this because I feel that, if I were to date someone regardless of trans or cis status, if we were going to go down the physical route, I have a right to know what equipment I’m going to be interacting with. Is my boyfriend going to have a vagina or a penis? Is my boyfriend in transition and therefor will his vagina look a little different than the non-hormone vagina?
I would absolutely and enthusiastically date a trans person, whether MTF, FTM or genderfuck/queer. When it comes down to sexual interaction, however, I would like to know what’s going on. Is it a trans person’s obligation to tell everyone of their status? No. If you want to be stealth, that’s your entire choice and I’m fine with you being stealth. There’s nothing wrong with being stealth and some people are more comfortable that way.
I do feel, however, that disclosure of these things in sexual situations (not all your friends need to know you’re trans, either) is important.
You could equate it in an analogous way to having an incurable STD (Herpes, HIV)*. You don’t have to yell it from the hills, but your partners should know before you engage with them. You could present as completely healthy and normal (in the STD side of the analogy — not saying that about trans people) and so no one has to know, but when it’s time to get between the sheets, then you need to tell the other person.
As I said then, if you’re close enough to have sex (or are looking to hook up), you should disclose this type of information because it could be very important to your partner. Fear of rejection isn’t something that should keep you from that.
*I do not in any way want to suggest that trans people are “diseased”, but this is about sex and the nature of when people should disclose information that could impact sexual activity for the other person. Genitals can be a make-or-break issue. Being trans is not a threat to the other person’s health like a disease, however the vulnerability in disclosure is similar, though different.
I am all for informed consent, but I think people describing this as an issue of informed consent is rather ridiculous, because generally people have no right or reason to assume a person’s anatomy based on their gender. If we have a tendency to assume that all women have vaginas and all men have penises, it’s our duty to STOP ASSUMING THAT, not our partner’s obligation to tell us if they don’t happen to fit into our assumptions.
Now, I could see this being an issue of informed consent in the following situation: if one partner says something like, “I am only interested in having sex with a person who has a penis. If you don’t have that part, I do not want to have sex with you” and the other partner lies and engages in sexual activity anyway. But in most situations, I doubt this is the case.
I think a world without the gender binary this is fair. But, we live in a world where most people of a certain gender have a certain biological sex. It’s like going to a straight bar and being offended, as a gay person, when someone of the opposite gender hits on you. You’re not where it’s expected to be different and so you have to realize it’s not entirely their fault they assumed that about you.
Does this mean that the gender binary is good? or that we should support the binary? No, it certainly doesn’t. But, you also have to remember that most people are gender conforming with their biology. It’s not entirely insane to assume that you, as a conforming individual, would have the same conforming aspects as that other person. Especially with something as delicate as gender identity and expression.
I agree. Transphobia may be the most prominent factor in rejection of dating trans people, but this does not take away anyone’s right to know the physical history of who they are intimate with. We talk all the time about how people have a right to be turned on by whatever they want, and how as long as they have a consenting adult to do it with them they should be able to act it out. Why does this not apply to people who want to have sex with cis gendered people?
The conversation should be about how to get people to stop thinking that trans gendered people are gross and really not the gender they claim to be, not that it’s okay to pretend you are cis so people will sleep with you.
That being said, no matter what your position, it is deception to withhold information vital to make an informed decision. The fact that this man did not say he was trans was withholding information, so it was deception. There are instances where deception is alright, such as safety which most trans people need to keep in mind when telling anyone they are trans.
I don’t think this comparison works, because there’s nowhere near the same amount of stigma attached to being German as there is to being transgendered in our current society.
Sexual attraction is a complicated subject. People who only date men are not necessarily misogynists. People who only date women are not necessarily misandrists. People who only date white people are not necessarily racists. And, people who only want to be in relationships with cis-people are not necessarily transphobic.
They may (or may not) have racist, misogynist, misandrist or transphobic motives — and, those motives may be worth some self-exploration — but people have the right to whatever relationship criteria they want. People are simply not required to be equal opportunity in their relationships.
Like it or not, to most people, gender matters in relationships. We can certainly try to change that. It may be a good thing if we did. But, that does not make it any less true that people have the right to withhold consent for any reason, or no reason at all … and their partners do not have the right to withhold information that is likely fundamental to their decision.
kbz
There’s also a difference between expecting full disclosure from both parties (especially when its clear they are supportive of trans people), as you do, and holding trans people to a different standard. There’s also a difference between breaking up with someone because they aren’t honest, and saying that trans people who pass as cis are lying. For me, whether or not people disclose personal information is important, but also why they didn’t: were they afraid of how I’d react, is it because of past experiences of theirs, were they trying to take advantage of me, did i do something to make them not trust me, are they not a trusting person, did they have a different idea of how the relationship was going, etc.
Lots of people have preferences about what they want their partner’s bodies to look like. Should women disclose whether they’ve had breast surgery, since some men might have preferences? Should men say whether they’ve been circumsized? Should people say whether they’re shaved, or trimmed, or unshaved? Should women who have large inner labia say so, so they don’t surprise men who have narrow expectations based on porn? Where does one draw the line on what should be disclosed, and what your partner will just see and deal with when it comes time? None of those, I think, would we say that people should disclose first; instead people with strong enough opinions should ask, or just deal gracefully when the time comes.
The issues are also somewhat different depending on the op status of the trans person. Post-op trans women can sometimes pass, even in intimate situations, so they wouldn’t have a need to disclose so their partner would know what genitals they have. For some then it becomes more an issue of their past, and not who they are at present.
I do understand the threats to safety. And, I don’t believe anyone is saying that transgendered people should haphazardly come out to every ignoramus wandering around.
But, the threats to safety that you reference are also really good reasons not to be involved romantically with someone. If you don’t feel safe with someone, don’t come out to them — but don’t have a sexual relationship with them either.
I suppose I do not understand feeling safe enough to have sex with someone — but still fearing physical violence upon the revelation of being transgendered. You’re either safe, or you’re not.
kbz
Excellent reply
I agree and my policy is always be willing to disclose anything that is important to my partners – even if I think it is trivial. We cant always know what will be that trigger for our partners, but I advocate for everyone being as clear as they can to prevent negative situations for both partners.
(and it may be because of the circles I run in, but I listed gender specifically because it is something I disclose even though I am cisgendered. Not everyone will think of that as something to mention, but rather than consider anything as obvious or standard I just disclose. As a geek, I always feel the need to state my givens as part of any discussion.)
Should men say whether they’ve been circumsized?
FWIW, I’ve legitimately been asked this question by a sexual partner. And, FWIW, I answered honestly.
But, giving to the nature of the discussion, I have no obligation to tell any of you what the answer is.
“I wont use medical examples because being transgendered is not comparable to disease but rather national identity.”
You’re right, being trans gender is not a disease.
In my example, the fact that she had cancer was not the point. It was simply an easy to imagine explanation for why someone might have a hysterectomy or mastectomy.
My point was that after the surgery, society considers her a man and expects her to play that role, because her body no longer conforms to their expectations of women.
My experience has been that most cisgender women find that a bit easier to imagine and relate to, than trying to imagine being born with a male body while retaining their female identity, or having a male identity but keeping their female body.
If we don’t start challenging some of the premises of the gender binary, it’s never going to change.
Given the nature of our society, it’s fair to assume a lot of things about people – for example, that any given woman is into wearing pretty dresses or that any given man likes to watch sports. I consider it a general feminist duty to stop making problematic assumptions about people, regardless of how statistically likely they are to be correct.
I don’t think the comparison with the bar really works… it’s more like a straight person assuming any person they meet is going to be straight and being offended if they find out otherwise – aka, heteronormativity.
Oops, that was supposed to be a response to rootedwillow
“BUT would I tell a partner that? Particularly one who is specifically attracted to women with uteruses the way heterosexual men are attracted to people with vaginas? YES! Because he needs to know if I need a uterus for him to be with me, that I don’t have one. He’s not right for me and I’m not right for him.”
I’ve dated several heterosexual men, but strangely NONE of them seemed to be “attracted to people with vaginas.” They didn’t even really think that vaginas are attractive in and of themselves.
They certainly never saw my vagina before getting intimate with me, so that obviously was not what attracted them to me.
Ok so for a bit of disclosure up front (hah!) I’m female, trans, transsexual even, pass as cis (I’m neither stealth not out, I disclose when and to whom I chose to), I have a penis. I’m in a long term relationship. But if, if, that ever ended I fully expect I would never have another partner again. Why? All of this.
Basically there is not ever a good time to say “Oh btw? I have a dick, I’m trans.” When could it ever be a good time? First date? That will be the last date unless one is truly lucky to have found someone not /only/ fair and openminded but who is also prepared to look beyond stereotypes and to also accept the possibility of a relationship with someone that is going to also be challenging for them to be in because of others stereotypes and expectations. And all on the first date. I can think of no better mood killer and romance destroyer than dropping that into a conversation when you are just tentatively getting to know someone. Consider:
“Hey! If this goes anywhere btw not only are you going to have to deal with some sexuality and identity issues of your own that I will cause in you unless you are by any chance bisexual (might help you but even so…) but you are going to have to relearn what you think you know about gendered bodies and sex and how to do sex and also if we get to a relationship you will /also/ have to deal with prejudice yourself from being with me and… oh… you’re not sure you’re interested in me… oh … ok”
I can really see that working. I really wish to have the opportunity to mix being a living education tool on the idiocy of the binary sex and gender construct while trying to find a partner.
You want trans people to be upfront? In an ideal world everyone ought to be. In an ideal world people would /know/ the gender binary and its concepts of sex and gender are rubbish. But it isn’t ideal. And that is not our fault and neither is the onus on us to personally educate everyone all the time.
So people wait until a few dates in, maybe a few months even to mention it, then you have issues of fear of rejection, fear of being called a liar, all of the things you all have been discussing. And yes, people have made some valid points. But those points take no account of the trans person in your scenarios as a feeling, fearing emotional being who is way, way more likely to be rejected and even physically hurt /just for being trans/. Do you really wonder why trans people don’t want to own up on the first date? The second, third? Anyway why should we? Oh yes, otherwise we are lying…
So here we get to the meat of it. Liars. Am I lying when I pass as cis? Or only when someone else thinks I am cis and wants to fuck me? I haven’t told them I am cis, they have assumed it. I haven’t told them if it is ok to be attracted to me, they have assumed it. Why is that the trans person’s fault? We have not created the assumption.
Yes there comes a point where one would be best off saying something, because yes a relationship does need to be based on trust and knowing your partner is not someone who hates you just for existing is a good idea. Not to mention that yes, I personally think that morally I should say something well before nudity was likely. Hell I’d be stupid not to. However, it is /not lying/ about myself if I do not say so until /I/ judge it to be the appropriate time to do so.
See I think what some people are missing here is the particular charge that the accusation of lying about gender caries for trans people. We are told, often, that we are lying just for being trans. Hell it’s a big part of the trans panic defense. So when people start bandying the word about we are, unsurpringly, going to make the wider connection. Because a conversation about transgendered bodies and sexuality is not going on in a vacuum.
People are also missing the point that we suffer from huge pressure to be ashamed of our own bodies and sexuality as trans people, so telling us that /all/ the responsibility and consequences for whether people are sexually attracted to us falls on us, and that all the consequences of not coming out immediately and up front at the first signs of interest is our fault is not only insensitive but massively one sided.
As with anything, it is just not as simple as this. People are rich and complex beings and there cannot be a single solution. Responsibility in a relationship should be equally shared, and so should respect. As trans people we tend to learn through bitter experience that we cannot expect respect and indeed tend to expect the opposite, so a level of trust is needed before one feels safe to disclose. That can take time to do. We have to tread a fine line between protecting ourselves from not saying we are trans and protecting ourselves from /saying/ we are trans.
People treating our transgendered bodies as something that could be so shocking as to cause mental anguish is just not cool. Some of the comments in these two threads have been incredibly upsetting. Basically our bodies are being talked about as something potentially traumatic unless we mention it up front. We are being shamed for our bodies not conforming to the expectations of society. That sounds familiar doesn’t it?
Our sexuality is being talked about as something of less relevance and importance than that of cis people. Cis people’s fears, needs and feelings are being placed above those of trans people.
There needs to be perspective, balance, compassion, to and for /everyone/. Responsibility, trust and openess ought to be earned things, developed together, not imposed by default on one party simply for existing.
I’ve gone on enough now. Sorry it got so long, I hope some of this makes sense. Thank you for reading.
I think the point is not that this is something that will *never* be disclosed, but that if neither you nor your partner had brought up your circumcision status, your partner would almost certainly not have broken up with you for “lying” once he/she discovered your status — even if, for instance, you seemed like you were probably circumcised or uncircumcised. “You seemed Jewish so I assumed you were circumcised and by not disclosing the state of your genitals you deceived me and are a liar!” would not be seen as a reasonable statement.
mahjani and rhoanna, I appreciate your discussion very much!
That made plenty of sense, and was all very well said. Thank you for your perspective. I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be to have one’s own truth be called a lie, and of course if that’s what going on the “you’re a liar” meme would be a hardcore trigger for trans people. I’m gonna go contemplate what equal responsibility for disclosure would look like if we actually had it in society.
In college, I dated a trans man before he transitioned and still identified as female. Fortunately, since then, his partner, who he identifies as his wife has been tremendously accepting of the process—which has included testosterone therapy and top surgery. She has been, I regret to say, far more understanding than I was initially.
I suppose I didn’t get it at first. He, at his own admission, still found me attractive to some degree and I think my emotional involvement/feelings of rejection probably blinded me to the fact that sexual orientation is completely separate from gender identification. Now, having educated myself, in large part due to recognizing how difficult a process transitioning has been for him, especially with conservative Christian parents, I regret my original attitudes and I’m glad he doesn’t hold them against me.
I am a transgender man. If I begin dating a cis woman, should she disclose at some point that she is cis? If she did not disclose and I assume that she is trans because of society or my own life experiences, am I justified in believing that she was deceptive?
Why should trans people be held to a different standard?
I’ve never claimed to be a cis man, but I certainly identify as a man. If a cis person does not explicitly ask about my trans status, ze has no right say that I am lying. There is nothing about my identifying as a man that is deceptive. If a cis person’s privilege leads hir to believe that all people who identify as “male” are cis men, fault lies with hir.
Your example would be more accurate if the person in question were a US citizen, but had German parents thus leading others to believe that ze wasn’t a “real American.”
Ze is a US citizen and the fact that hir parents are German is not important enough to warrant disclosure. If hir partner required hir to have American parents, the partner needs to be upfront with that desire. But because ze is who ze presents hirself to be, ze has no additional requirement to disclose.
Derek did not lie about his past. He didn’t mention his trans status just like he may have failed to mention the time he had a tonsillectomy or played the lead role in his school play. If his trans status is insignificant to him, he has no obligation to disclose it unless he is specifically asked about it.
What you are basically saying, is that trans people are obligated to either be celibate or disclose their trans status to their partners.
Your reasoning is that to “most people”, their partners trans status would be fundamental in their decision to consent to sex, and that therefore, not revealing this information is exploitative.
I asked you whether you would apply this standard to other private matters regarding the body: “Genetic predispositions to diseases? Blood type? Previous pregnancies? Previous abortions? Racial history going back X number of generations? Whether or not they have an invisible disability? Whether or not they’ve ever had cancer? Natural hair color? Whether they take acne medication? Whether or not they’ve ever had surgery for any reason? Whether or not they’ve ever had a cavity, and if so how many?”
Looking back, I really should have made that list more neutral. Blood type, Natural hair and eye color, racial history… that type of thing. The difficult thing is that most neutral things aren’t widely considered private.
You’re response was “I specifically stated that people should disclose that which will likely be fundamental to consent being granted. This qualifies. Dental cavities don’t.”
Basically, what you are saying is that because society rejects and marginalizes trans bodies, people with these bodies are obligated to disclose to their partners.
On the other hand, cavities are considered trivial, so people that have or have had them are under no obligation.
Just to make sure I fully understand your argument:
What if some individual does find cavities or other trivial and private matters to be fundamental to consent being granted? Is that persons partner obligated to disclose? If not, if it’s just about societies expectations rather than individual expectations, what percentage of society has to consider the matter fundamental? 50%? 75% 99%? More importantly, how do you come to the conclusion about what percentage matters?
okay you going to be having sex with this person. You are going to be sharing your body in the most intimate possible way with a person who you are not comfortable talking about those things with? What you and a lot of other people don’t seem to be understanding is that if you can’t share your thoughts with this person, which is a much more safe thing to share than your body, then maybe you shouldn’t be sharing your body with them either
“If a cis person does not explicitly ask about my trans status, ze has no right say that I am lying.”
I completely agree with that. Besides, there are lots of cases where what the other know is not very clear. Personally, I am quite out and tend to speak of my transness quite a lot, so I wouldn’t have the idea to tell someone that I am trans, because I assume they know. Yet sometimes it’s not the case, so does that mean that if I date someone that didn’t realize it, I am guilty for not wearing a flashing sign saying I am trans?
And, well, if I was stealth, I don’t think it would be a great sign of trust to feel the need to warn the person I’m dating at first date because I fear ze might react badly otherwise. Actually, if I *really* trusted hir, I think I wouldn’t feel the need to tell hir before we get nude and ze sees by hirself.
A common theme coming up in the comments, is that transgender people should come out for their own safety.
I think most transgender people already do that, but it’s extremely presumptuous for a cisgender person to tell a transgender person when they should come out, and even more presumptuous to tell a transgender person when they should feel safe to come out.
No one is in a better position to know when a transgender person is safe to come out than the transgender person themselves. Their agency and right to privacy must be respected.
So because of your personal experience you do not believe those men should have the right to decide whether they want to have sex with a partner who has a penis or not?
So they have the right to refuse sex for any reason, but not that reason? At what point does one lose that right?
You also have to acknowledge that most people aren’t in the position to question the binary at this point. Most people — as privileged people in some way, especially in regards to trans issues — aren’t going to think about trans gender status and what those implications might be. They’re going to look at someone say “man” assume “penis” and move on. What we want for the future isn’t what there is now. What there is now is what we’re talking about and, while I support and endorse the binary deconstruction, I’m not naive enough to think that I’m in the majority in understanding how that social construction works.
There are a lot of things assumed by people because of society’s reinforced norms, I agree. I also agree they need to be challenged and changed. This does not make them any less of the norms we’re combating now and doesn’t mean that there general populace is going to actually think too far gone from that norm.
‘s more like a straight person assuming any person they meet is going to be straight and being offended if they find out otherwise – aka, heteronormativity.
I fail to see the difference between the straight/gay interaction at the bar and what you’re proposing here since heteronormativity is what causes the straight person to approach the gay one and subsequently be surprised to learn that they’re gay.
Actually, what was going on downstairs was a disappointment for an ex of mine because of his preferences. Even more to the point, if you’re going to be having consensual sexual contact, the other person is going to find out about your genitals regardless of warning. I think it’s more respectful to let them know what you have, if asked or if you willingly offer, than to have it be a surprise.
What if some individual does find cavities or other trivial and private matters to be fundamental to consent being granted? Is that persons partner obligated to disclose?
If they have in someway reason to believe that this is likely to matter. Then yes they have a moral obligation if not a legal obligation to disclose that information.
If not, if it’s just about societies expectations rather than individual expectations, what percentage of society has to consider the matter fundamental?
Society’s expectations are in large part merely a conglomeration of individuals expectations.
50%? 75% 99%? More importantly, how do you come to the conclusion about what percentage matters?
A percentage at which a reasonable person would have reason to believe that the information is relevant to a persons informed consent. The same standard we would use for any information in any type of contract, agreement, or other act which required consent from one of more people.
Ok, What?
There is a difference between
a) “Hello, nice to meet you, I am a lady with a penis,” and
b) “Sweetheart, before you decide to be in an exclusive, long-term relationship / have sex / have children with me, there is something you need to know, which is that I’m transgendered”
What is the problem here? No one is arguing that there is an obligation for people to disclose their status as transgender, and I’d like to see the person who thinks it’s a good idea to fuck, marry and/or plan to have a family with someone who you’re not comfortable coming out to as trans.
*That sentence should read: “No one is arguing that there is an obligation for people to disclose their status as trans gender as it’s done in example ‘a.’”
“So because of your personal experience you do not believe those men should have the right to decide whether they want to have sex with a partner who has a penis or not?”
Of course they have that right.
If their partner tells them they have a penis, they have the right to break up with them.
Of course they have that right.
If their partner tells them they have a penis, they have the right to break up with them.
Except they have the right to know before anything sexual occurs. The person has the right to not have sex with the other person. That right never goes away.
No one is suggesting that transgender people have the right to perform any sexual acts on another person without their consent. That’s rape.
Likewise, no one has right to penetrate me with a dildo without my consent. That’s also rape.
But, it would be ludicrous to suggest that my partners are under an obligation to inform me that they own a dildo.
It only becomes relevant when they plan on using it on me.
It’s a question of agency, who has the right to decide when it happens. Some people are arguing that trans people who do not do so at the earliest possible time are essentially lying and that that is obtaining consent by deception.
We’re trying to say, the timing and the right to choose how and when to come out is always with the individual doing the coming out. And that trans people presenting in their gender identity are /not lying/ about themselves by not saying they are trans. That’s all.
There are some (to me) unpleasant assumptions going on under the surface of these two threads, not deliberately I think, but in general. And I think that some of the cis people replying are not seeing those and so are wondering why we trans commenters are getting upset. The answer is partly the subtexts. The underlying premises here, whether people mean them or not, are that our bodies and selves might be in some way nasty, unnatural or potentially traumatic and that we are deceptive in our gender performance if we pass enough to be attractive to someone who might otherwise find us unsuitable.
I think you’re totally correct about this being easy for cis people (like myself) to miss. It took several clarifying comments before I got that this was the central point of the thread from the perspective of trans people involved. I really appreciate all the clarification, it’s been incredibly helpful to me and I suspect to others as well.
But isn’t that a huge part of what people do on this site, and most other feminist blogs out there? Calling people out on their privilege and asking them to think about things in ways they might not be accustomed to thinking about them?
I understand that a lot of people haven’t thought about these things already, but you could say exactly the same thing about sexism, racism, etc. Most people probably don’t know a reasonable definition of consent, but does that mean we shouldn’t ask them to learn? It is an interesting topic, but I don’t see how this is any more relevant to my comment than any other comment or post on this site that tells people to rethink what they have been taught or check their privilege.
I think I was confused about what you were trying to say with the bar example, sorry about that.