Last night I threw a birthday party for my live-in boyfriend at our loft inviting all of our friends. I have a boyfriend who identifies himself as a feminist and is quite possible one of the best guys I've ever met. His friends on the other hand.....
So the beginning of the night goes well. We served limoncello cocktails and conversation was great. My boyfriend was all smiles and I was really glad that I could put together this event for him.
We had already discussed a month or so ago that there would not longer be any hookah smoking (tobacco for those who don't know hookah) at our home if people had been drinking (this came about as a drunk person knocked it over, burning my hand and ruining my favorite rug at our last get together).
Well last night someone felt the need to bring their hookah over (wtf? I mean I wouldn't just light up a cigarette in someones home). My boyfriend was somewhere else in the house so I confronted the smoking group and told them that we didn't allow hookah in our house. They gave me the dirtiest look and said they'd go upstairs to smoke it ( which is STILL in my home). I felt so non-verbally attacked I went along with the compromise and as they passed me I heard them calling me a bitch making fun of having a purple velvet couch (i.e. nice things) and being a prude. It really got me to thinking....if I could've have located my boyfriend and he said the same, there would been a total apologetic nature and immediate cessation of smoking I KNOW IT. It just threw up a big flag in my face that if a woman is trying to be mature, strong, and stand up for her domain...she is automatically a witch. bitch, fill-in-the-blank misogynist term.
This brings me to the biggest and worst situation of the night (trigger warning) - One of our guests (my good friend's husband) had a bit to much to drink to say the least. We ended up finding him asleep in our bed. She began apologizing and trying to wake him up. After several attempts of "Hey honey you need to get up" she switched to "Get up now! You're embarrassing me!" All of the sudden he jumped up and started kicking our bedroom furniture and punching the wall next to his wifes head. She was screaming crying and ran out our bedroom to have another friend find her convulsing in the hallway. I was the only one to see the incident so people were asking me what happened. I was outraged and ready to call the cops. I was shooing everyone out of the party when several of the male guest who know my friend's husband came up to me and said "Ya know he would never actually hurt her...he was just drunk". I exclaimed "WHAT!?" How could that act be justifiable no matter what? And more than anything....something like that IS abuse whether he actual made physical contact with her at all. Why is it that men are so protective of each other when they didn't even see the happenings!? It was physical intimidation and emotional abuse! As I was crying, and yelling, I heard someone say: "Why is she so worked up?" and one guest responded "Because she is a man-hating feminist who makes everything a bigger deal than what it is." I was irate, told my boyfriend to get everyone out the door and went and locked myself in my room.
I'm getting to the point where I feel like I just can't interact with people anymore. How is standing up for yourself and the ones you love a punishable act?
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FWIW, I think your reaction was justifiable. Your boyfriend's friends sound like real winners.
Of course they'd stand up for him, the majority of men seem to be utterly clueless as to just how frightening it is for a woman when one of them to flies into a rage and seemingly have her in their sights. And of course they'd ignore the fact that not actually laying a hand on someone at a certain point is no guarantee that you aren't about to do so, or won't in the future. They don't know what it's like to grow up being constantly told that you are essentially powerless to stop an angry man, be he a stranger or your lover.
And he's their mate, so he matters more than anyone else. Especially if that 'anyone' is a woman, who are all nagging, overreacting bitches anyway.
I'd say your reaction is justified, and you need to have a word with your boyfriend (if you haven't already) about what happened and express your concerns about his friends' behaviour.
Great for you for not sitting back quietly. You are totally correct on both accounts and the friends are jerks.
However you choose to handle the friends, you need to really talk to your boyfriend about it so you are on the same side and can be a united front. The friends either need to be confronted or dumped.
And I totally hear you about it being hard to relate and interact with people. :(
I feel your pain, and I'm sorry you had to go through it and still had to hear to these disgusting comments.
"I'm getting to the point where I feel like I just can't interact with people anymore. How is standing up for yourself and the ones you love a punishable act?"
That's exactly how I feel.
It is my brother-in-law (who emotionaly abuses my sister) saying that is unaceptable to jail Polanski because the 13 y/o "knew what was going to happen when she went to a party at Nicholson's house", my husband's "friend" saying that rape "is an act of love" and nobody at the table saying boo, is this same pig saying it is acceptable to hit a woman if she cheats on you (and he is saying that to 2 man and 3 women, two of them have a daughter).
Really, somebody help me. Should I just isolate myseld from these people and have no peolpe to interact with? It's so depressing that people that I consider as "good and decent" accept these comments and say nothing.
I'm very sad with humanity.
The more I hear about these stories, the more I feel that society itself is a trap for owmen, because of our social ties. We can't get away from these monsters precisely because they are related to us. The only thing I can think of to say is that your indignation was understated, if anything, and that your boyfriend must support you 100 per cent against his friends. If he agrees with you - and no other decent response is possible - then he must stand up for what is right. He is choosing to be with these people. They're not even his family. That tells you volumes about him. If he refuses to side with you publicly and will not risk losing these losers, he is one of them. And you will have to escape from him.
Yes, I agree with you, but how does she actually get her boyfriend so side with her? In my case, my husband says he agrees with me, but he always gets nervous when somebody says something sexist (he starts kicking my leg under the table) because he knows I will not stay silent and I will become aggressive with the person, unless she is a woman.
Should I confront him in front of these sexist people? Should I say loudly “Honey, do you agree with that?”, putting him on the spot? Is that acceptable, or will I be violating him by forcing him to express an opinion he doesn’t want to express (even though he says he has it?)
quote: "Should I confront him in front of these sexist people? Should I say loudly “Honey, do you agree with that?”, putting him on the spot? "
Yes.
quote: "will I be violating him by forcing him to express an opinion he doesn’t want to express (even though he says he has it?)"
Let's see. If a Nazi war criminal came to your hosue and said he wanted to kill more Jews, would you find it acceptable for your husband to stay silent? Do you want such a person as your husband? Does he really want to be such a person? Substitute "Nazi war criminal" for "sexist asshole with violent tendencies". For "woman hater". For "slaver". Choose anything. It's still wrong. He should be the one to realize this, of course, but you have every right to NUDGE.
Why, oh why, is the assumption always that the woman must accept being uncomfortable, not the man?
To quote Harriet Jacobs on Fugitivus: "I think entitlement is super important here. Rape is about the ranking of entitlement — “I have a right to sex and that supersedes your right to not have sex” — and rape jokes are about the ranking of entitlement — “I have a right to think the torture of women is funny, and that supersedes your right to think it’s not.” Or, more to the point, “I have a right to make you uncomfortable and you do not have the right to do the same to me.” Which is what I’m hearing from all the comments I’m deleting: I get to make rape jokes, even if they trigger you. You do not get to tell me I’m triggering you and describe how that feels, because that might make me feel kinda bad, and my comfort level is way more important and relevant than yours".
Thanks, I needed some encouragement. You are really helping me out.
I didn't mean to sound like I thought it was somehow your fault, btw, that he kicks you. That's totally on him. What I meant was that you have every right to find this outrageously unacceptable and call him on it.
Not acceptable behavior.
Look, this dude married you. And while there are obvious limitations to "stand by your man," I think that there is a pretty obvious difference between not standing by your husband when he's molesting your child or disrespecting the primacy of your relationship with an affair and your husband kicking you under the table to shut you up because he values the opinions of his friends more than he values your opinions.
I nipped this shit in the bud with my husband when we were dating even: when a man and a woman make a commitment to one another, it's imperative that they understand that coming off as "cool" to douchebag friends is not more important than the commitment they made to their partner.
If you are a feminist and you are married to a man who respects your feminism, there are going to be moments when he will have to do more than just "respect" your feminism and actively side with you against his misogynist friends. It's not about having him "stand up for you" it's about having him stand with you instead of abandoning you to score points with his pals. And since they're his friends, he has a responsibility to be a corrective force in their life.
Here's the thing: This isn't about starting trouble. Anti-feminists and misogynists and all-around ass-smears like these guys are actively and purposefully goading you to make you uncomfortable and they are doing so in order to drive a wedge between you and your partner. This cannot be repeated enough. Once there is blood in the water the frenzy begins. A single innocent slip-up, when they realize they've gotten under your skin and your boyfriend/husband is content to let you twist is all they need to know that there is a weakness to be exploited and I have never known a woman-hating friend to leave it at that one innocent slip-up. So while your boyfriend or husband may feel that he's "keeping the peace" by fucking kicking you under the table to tell you to shut up, woman he's really just capitulating to what these douchenozzles want: which is to alienate you and make you feel like you're compromising on your partner by picking someone who will not even ally themselves with you on something you think is important.
They can go fuck a duck. Sit down with your partner and lay it out and remind them who they're committed to.
Wise words. I appreciate it and that will keep me from feeling like the “trouble-maker” as I often do.
Also, about your husband kicking your leg under the table: you're allowing him to silence you???? That deserves a convo with him. He needs a serious talking to.
If you haven't read Margaret Atwood's early novel Surfacing it might be worth your while.
I agree, that's a perfect choice--I'm actually writing a paper on that exact novel right now. It's a close reading on how the novel is a critique of the way heterosexuality erases a woman's identity and replaces it with that of the man.
In that vein, remember that your opinion is an expression of your identity. If you allow your partner to silence it--whether they are a man, a woman, genderqueer, or anything else--you are allowing your partner to carve their identity over yours. If your partner is a feminist, ask them to show some solidarity and stand up WITH you (because having them stand up FOR you isn't the right way to go). If they don't agree, then that's an opinion they're not willing to defend and thus one they might as well not have.
You should be talking to your "feminist" boyfriend about having such misogynists for friends...
If you don't associate with rascists, misogynists, or homophobes, because you have more sense then that- why is he? Why are all his friends like that?
I would have a real problem with my boyfriend/partner befriending people who would speak to me or of me with such disrespect, in my own home no less. Doesn't that concern you? No one is that different from the people they choose to closely associate with.
I would have a real problem with my boyfriend/partner befriending people who would speak to me or of me with such disrespect, in my own home no less. Doesn't that concern you? No one is that different from the people they choose to closely associate with.
I would have a real problem with my boyfriend/partner befriending people who would speak to me or of me with such disrespect, in my own home no less. Doesn't that concern you? No one is that different from the people they choose to closely associate with.
Yup...been there. My boyfriend and his brother got into a verbal fight while they were drunk, and that progressed into his brother punching him and kicking him as well as yelling loudly in my apartment. While I tried to restrain his brother (who is 6 feet 200lbs of muscle) he still managed to punch a hole in my wall. The cops came...my boyfriend refused to let his brother spend the night in jail, and was arrested for domestic violence to save his brother's ass.
The next day I re-played every moment in my head over and over again. What could I have done differently and so forth. Should I have cut off his brother's drinking sooner, should I have told the police officer that it was his brother who started the fight and kept hitting my boyfriend while my boyfriend kept telling him to get off of him. (my boyfriend is actually bigger than his brother...regardless he just didn't want to fight him)
This moment blew over, the domestic violence charges were dropped and life went on.
This year his brother got wasted and decided to pull a machete on my sister and her friend to scare them because he felt "disrespected". No one got physically hurt.Needless to say that I threw a giant fit the next day when I found out that he threatened my sister and her best friend. But... here's the kicker, his sister (who was there at the time) spun a story about how my sister and her friend "instigated" my boyfriend's brother to get upset. This of course infuriated the shit out of me. This was followed by his defensive mother, who automatically assumed that everything her daughter was saying about the night had been true. How easy it is to protect an abusive person.
I defended my sister, the machete man eventually apologized (over facebook) to my sister and her friend but I never forgave him, and I probably never will.
The only feeling/thought I had during the course of my incident was "Had I been a man, and as big as you I would have beaten the shit out of you and made you feel how you made me feel", but I'm not as big as he is and I'm not a man. So I told him if he EVER pulls something like that again, that I will call the police and make sure that he goes to jail because I will never be able to physically restrain him and that is that.
I have know my boyfriend's brother for about 10 years now. He didn't start out violent, loud, intimidating or scary. My boyfriend (now husband) was never like that. Sometimes I wonder what happened? How did he become like that? What moment in his life changed him? He's not the kid I remember.
Remember that anytime you stand up for yourself or anyone else you will receive a backlash. Is it warranted? NO. But it will happen. We have to be friends/relatives with all kinds of people. (Read Refusing the be a Man by John Stoltenberg (sp?)) Sometimes we have to give up our values to have people, this happens most of the time. But there are people out there who will not challenge your values.
The only thing I can tell you, is what my boyfriend told me once. I got upset over how one of his friends treats women like dumpsters and he said. "You are so brave, even when you know what people will say and what their reaction will be you still say what you want to say. That's so brave."
So...my conclusion is that you are VERY BRAVE MolleeM. Continue to challenge other people's beliefs, you never know who you might inspire.
This is why I stopped having people over to my house to drink.
This is why I stopped having people over to my house period.
Bitching on a feminist blog
solves nothing. Throwing
those assholes out of your
loft for smoking and calling
the police for the drunk
lunatic would have solved
everything. Don't your worry
about what people will
think: us dudes never do.
That's what an assertive
person does: (putting ppl
in their place; one chump
at a time.)
You're lucky I have the time to educate you through comment analysis piece by piece, because its obvious you could use some learnin'.
1.)''Bitching on a feminist blog solves nothing...''
What you claim to be 'bitching' is actually a person recounting an experience they had, and wanting to know how she could better protect the ones she cared about, and if so, what is the cost and what are the risks involved? Your diminutive language choice (taking what was a question, and referencing it as excessive whining) has indicated that you don't respect what she had to say. Thats your choice but when you...
2.) Ignorantly assume it is your place to tell people what to do, when what you're suggesting is offensive in that suggests that to be "aggressive" (by which, I assume you mean able to handle confrontation) is a male exclusive trait ("Don't your worry about what people will think: us dudes never do. That's what an assertive person does") or that in order to ably handle a situation one must invoke this maleness you proclaim, you're marginalizing women and saying that in order to be effective, they must act like men. It is not enough to be a woman, as women cannot handle these situation. You're being disrespectful, at the very least.
3.) When you are posting a comment, in order to be a contributor to the discussions that are often incredibly interesting and informative here on Feministing, please remember to take the post seriously, and consider how you would feel if you were a woman in that position. This may be very difficult, but consider a world where your words and actions are not valued to the degree of someone else simply because of what sex you were born as. That isn't all there is to being a woman, but they may help you to better understand what the woman that posted this was saying.
Point 1: You're right, I should have use more polite language. And Mollee did come to the right place to seek council.
Point 2: I was trying to offer advice as to how she could protect her property/self/family: see your point 1. I was just offering a different POV of the situation and solution that involved action and rather than just analysis of the plight of women in general. All I suggest is that Mollee ignore what others think in order to protect herself/property: she'll feel better next time. I didn't mean that only men are assertive.
Point 3: I do take my post seriously. I was trying to help and you don't need to be mean.
Interestingly enough, she DID tell the smokers straight-out that she did not allow smoking in her house, and what being "assertive" got her - despite the fact that it was a reasonable statement and entirely within her rights - was a bunch of guys turning surly and dismissing her and what she had to say because she was just "bitching"...just like you just did.
"despite the fact that it was a reasonable statement and entirely within her rights - was a bunch of guys turning surly and dismissing her and what she had to say because she was just "bitching"..." I didn't say she should just talk at them, I wrote she should have thrown them out. Being assertive means following up with action if necessary. I would give the same advice to anyone. Step 1 define problem Step 2 Say how you feel Step 3 request action Step 4 State consequences for non-compliance i.e. toss them out like yesterday's trash.
Thank you all for your thought provoking responses.
As far as people that can really relate to what I am saying...it's nice know I am not alone.
I think for my boyfriend being friends with this people you must know one thing: My boyfriend is friends with the same people he was in 3rd grade. Yes, its a bit peculiar but I've grown to accept that he's not very good at making new ones.
I asked him out. I kissed him first. Etc, etc, etc. Anyone that knows him knows that he is terrified of confrontation whether it be good or bad.
We are both fine with my role as the more dominant person in the relationship. I'm sure if any of you have had a relationship like this you know that their friends have a hard time accepting it. For example:
When I hear someone doing something offensive towards my boyfriend, I stand up for him because I know he's upset inside with fear about speaking up. When most people hear this I get a reaction from men of "Why don't you let your boyfriend speak for himself?" or "Looks like we got a man on a leash here!" On the contrary if someone put down a woman or "stepped on her toes" and her boyfriend spoke up: "He's so valiant!", "He just loves her so much and never lets anyone hurt her!" BLAHHHHHHHHHH!!
Thats a bit off topic but I just wanted to discuss what it is like to be in a relationship (that I'm EXTREMELY HAPPY WITH) in which we are both fine with some "role reversals"
The good news is after discussig with my boyfriend the next day about what happened, he contacted his friends and told them that they needed to apologize to me in some way because all I was trying to do was help him have a good time on his birthday without also wrecking or burning down our place. I've only recieved one so far out of 20+ perps. We've also jointly agreed no more parties with more than 10 people.
Also, I called and confronted my friend's husband. I'm not sure I feel any better about his explosive state but at least I feel like I've done what I can do to try to protect her. As far as some of you commenting on calling the cops. Even though my friends aren't completely feminism bereft, there are few people around where I live in a college town in the Midwest who feel as strongly as I do or are educated about violence against women. If I would've called the cops I most likely would have lost her as a friend which would've put me further away from helping her. Its really hard for some people to formally "turn in" spouses, family members, etc. As a child of abuse I know its really difficult to speak up knowing that the family member you love but hurts you is going to jail and you put them there. Whether its completely justified or not.
Vacuum cleaner entrepreneur James Dyson wants us all to spend $299 on a fan that has no blades.
I guess I've learned to deal with this type of behavior out of "friends" or guests by, well, being more forceful and persistent about it. A lot of times people don't take women seriously when they put their foot down, or act like they're joking, or they can be convinced otherwise, or someone can weasel out of it. Men often feel they have a right to challenge women's authority, especially young women, in all kinds of situations (I learned this from teaching a college class to students I wasn't much older than; I honestly had to develop a special comeback repertoire just to deal with the obnoxious freshman boys). I can see how you relented on letting them smoke upstairs; I may have done the same if everybody was partying and having a really good time and I didn't want to ruin the mood. But the minute I heard someone calling me names behind my back, I would have confronted them directly. Just remember: DON'T BE NICE ABOUT IT. You're letting them into YOUR house, offering them YOUR hospitality. You don't OWE them a fucking thing. You need to remind them of that. THEY are the ones acting like dicks, NOT YOU.
And, really, even if this had all resulted in you hollering profanities and kicking everyone out of the house, as I've done before with my brother's friends at my parents' house, I don't think you have any explaining to do, not even to your boyfriend. Any reasonable person would find the friends' behavior inappropriate, uncalled for, and generally intolerable.
I'm sorry you're feeling bad about this. :( As a woman, I know being insulted and especially witnessing a friend's abuse can be painful and make you want to curl up in a ball and cry. But you need to DEFEND yourself, and it's generally difficult to do that while crying. Don't be afraid to get in people's faces. I guarantee it'll make you feel better.
As Audre Lorde wrote, "I was going to die, if not sooner then later, whether or not I had ever spoken myself. My silences had not protected me. Your silence will not protect you."
Your silence will not protect you. This quote has perhaps been the most powerful one in my feminist life.
As for the friend's husband: If you know him well enough, I'd certainly confront him about it, or at least let him know it's totally NOT cool or acceptable in your book. Or have your husband talk to him about it. What the hell?
Oops, sorry, your boyfriend talk to him.
You expressed what I wanted to write but more eloquently. But i got backhanded twice for my suggestion...
"find her convulsing in the hallway."
I suspect that this woman's husband is abusing her.
Thanks. This was a very timely post for me. My situation is different but still involves minimizing my feelings and trying to make me feel like I'm the one who's wrong, even though he is. Reading this, and all of the supportive responses, is really helping me stand up for myself where I might have just given in or wavered before.
"minimizing my feelings and trying to make me feel like I'm the one who's wrong, even though he is"
This is what I've been going through, since I realized I've always (really, always) been a feminist and decided to be vocal about it.
These comments, that support us, have been very helpful in making me feel less uncomfortable when I stand up for myself, just like you.
Wow, the whole situation is so awful and fucked up. And that he kicks you under the table? I thought you first meant it in that he was TRYING to get you to speak up, because he couldn't possibly be THAT dismissive. He should get uncomfortable because of the sexism, not because you might call it out! He calls himself "feminist", and I call myself the Queen of England. Reminds me of my ex-he called himself a feminist too, but if I criticized someone he was friends with for being sexist (or even a movie), he would get pissed and say I hate men/am just like glenn said (my rapist). Needless to say, he was a grade A asshole.
Actions > Words. Always. Look at what he does, not what he says. Does he act feminist? Hell no. And I'd agree that the woman who's husband woke up and abused her IS being abused. Which is not ok. You're not overreacting, getting pissed and crying in the face of people who hate women is healthy, I'd say. It took me a while to get to this point, but it's honestly the only advice I can give. It's hard to be happy when there's still misogyny in your life, no matter how "small" it is-and standing up to it pushes people away. But that's up to you-I couldn't be happy that way, but maybe that's better for you. Neither choice is wrong, bitchy or wimpy. It's all about what you can live with.
I have 2 rules for friendships and lovers, and while they've shrunk my social circle a ton (down to like 4 people), my life is also much better.
1) Do not be friends/lovers with abusers, misogynists, racists, etc, or anyone dismissive of your (and other people's) feelings.
2) Do not be friends/lovers with anyone who defends abusers, misogynists, etc, or remains friends with them.
It doesn't make you a bitch, it just means you have high standards.
Standards, full stop! I'd count dismissing racist/misogynist/abusive friends as the base level standard rather than high standards.
I'm not trying to have a go at you because I completely agree with your post - but it pisses me off no end that some of my former friends act like I'm some kind of snob because I refuse to interact with ignorant assholes.
To the OP: just because your partner has been friends with these people since school does not mean he needs to be friends with them forever. He needs to dump them quick smart if they are ignorant to the hurt and damage they caused.
Perhaps part of the reason it is difficult for him to make new friends is because his long time friends are like they are? Better to have no friends at all in my opinion.
I appreciate what you're trying to say...and I must make a statement that I think the happenings at this event opened a lot of eyes and thing will be much different in the future.
With that being said...although we all hate to admit it we have to decide how far we are planning to take our abstinence of sexist culture since there is a small factor called SOCIETY that plays into our daily lives.
I can't emphasize enough that we attend graduate school in a small rural Indiana town at a notable conservative Agriculture college.
I've run out of options aside from becoming a full on hermit to avoid all sexist situations. And I'm sure the same goes for my boyfriend if not more so. Fellow male feminists are about as rare as they come around here.
Now with that being said, I agree that we shouldn't be best friends with full on misogynists, racist, etc. But without employing full on social recluse status it would be impossible to root out all acquaintances that hold at least a sliver of those "values".
I never once asked how to deal with my boyfriend. I know if I could have located him during this issue thing would've turned out differently. I was simply asking fellow community members how they deal with misogyny and sexism that they encounter in their daily life.
Tokidoki- What you are commenting on are things said by two different people. The issue of table kicking came from a commenter not the OP (me). One in the same is what your post seemed to be implying.
Sass- I understand the snob comment and can relate, however, what do you do in your daily life? I doubt you can imagine my environment in which I live outside of my apartment and find it not helpful for you to imply that to avoid this anti-feminist things in my life I should just stay at home and stare at the wall or blog on here (lord knows I can't watch TV if I'm removing all sexist elements of my existence.) I know that sounds like I'm being extreme but I mean, if we didn't associate with people who had ignorant views...well what I said above is what we would be doing.
wax ghost- I hope whatever is going on for you that has drawn you to this post resolves and I'm very glad it helped you in some way.
We all have to remember that if feminists withdraw from society we can't make change. We have to SUPPORT one another so that we can decide the proper actions to take when dealing with the anti-woman issues that arise in our daily lives.