I wanted to post this because I've seen a lot of abuse posts recently. Abuse posts are bad enough, but some of the advice I'm seeing is kind of bothering me. For some of you who don't know,I, like others, am an abuse survivor. When you're in an abusive relationship, to the outside world, the solution seems so easy, just get out and go. However, sometimes it's not that simple. Sometimes people don't have the financial means to leave. Or they just aren't ready to take that step. I see a lot of posters who mean well, but I see things that border on insensitive. Comments like "If I were you I'd leave", or "you need to find your voice and leave.." Yep, not as simple as finding your voice.
Whenever people would say things like, "If I were in your position, I would have left a long time ago, or I don't know why you're staying" it didn't help. It made me feel worse. Like something was wrong with me, and why couldn't I just get out of my relationship? ("I'm a strong, independent, feminist, why can't I get it together?") It made me feel horrible. Like I couldn't talk to anyone without getting judged, or looked at like "The abused girl". While well meaning, sometimes it's not good advice. The thing to understand is, until the victim is ready to leave, all of the advice in the world, may not even matter. Sometimes the best you can do is to be constantly supportive, or provide resources like shelters, or emergency contact information, so that when the victim is finally ready to leave, they will have the necessary info.
Before you tell a person to leave, first assess and make sure you know he/she is able to do so. In some cases, a victim may not have the financial resources to just leave whenever they want to, in many cases a victim may be financially and emotionally dependent upon his/her abuser. Sometimes their self esteem is so wrecked that they truly believe that they deserve to be abused, or that it is their fault.
I know I may get criticized for this, but I just wanted to give some info so that the next time a friend, or a fellow feministing member is in the situation, you can be more understanding of their situation. (:
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No, you're totally right.
Having been in the situation myself, I have the panic-attack, gut reaction of "get out of there now even though it is gonna suck like all hell in the short term," and that is all that I can think to post.
However, having been in the situation myself, I also know that you are right, and finding the emotional strength (not to mention money/safety, if that is a factor) to leave is in some ways more wrenching than dealing with the aftermath.
BUT: it is worth it.
Thank you.
Thank you for this post. It's important that well meaning feministing commenters realize that abuse is complex and victims need support, not lectures.
while i totally agree, it's also really really hard to be the 'supportive' friend for 5-6 years. having been that person, it took an emotional toll on me that ended up deeply affecting my health. and the friend never left the abuser, and instead left me.
that said, everyone deserves support. but there's a point when sometimes it's just not there to give anymore :(
I think the best thing we can do when a friend is in any type of abusive situation (work, family, drugs, relationship) is to offer to be there on the other side when they are ready to get out.
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Also have been in the situation myself. For me, the "LEAVE" advice is usually in response to questions about whether anything can be done to fix the relationship, or whether the abuser is actually a really nice guy otherwise - to me, the only answer to any of that is, "No, leave."
It absolutely takes time to leave. Whether it's because of financial, emotional, or bringing-oneself-to-let-go reasons. But I'd encourage anyone in the situation to work on THESE issues during the time it takes them to finally leave, rather than on trying to fix a relationship that's clearly working quite well for the abuser who has no incentive to change. The latter just leads to banging your head against the wall, the abusee cannot fix her abuser.
I completely understand the logic here, but I know in my situation, I needed someone to tell me to leave. I would have left my abusive ex long before I finally did if one of my friends had just outright told me I needed to leave. Instead, everyone was too encouraging, too placating, and that's just not what some people need.
The lectures, or the jibes (I recently discussed things with a friend who claimed he didn't understand why women stayed in abusive situations, except, you know, the stupid ones) are unnecessary, but someones straight-up advice is the best thing.
Thank you everyone for replying to this post. Thank you for sharing your stories and perspectives thus far. I hoped I helped in some way.
@Faythren. I probably should have clarified in my original OP, but I didn't mean that you don't tell someone not to leave. I think hearing that makes all the difference to some victims. What I wanted to focus on was the tone, and the way that you speak to an person who is being abused. There's a certain sensitivity that is needed at times.
My intention for this post was to just educate people and help them understand that abuse is not a black and white situation. It is complex. It is emotional. It is not simple.
I think most people who recommend women "get out, now" understand the severity and the complications of abuse.
It's the people who say , "Stay", "Work it out", "Think of your children", "Focus on the good times", "You wont be able to make it on your own"
etc. that could use the schooling.
I agree that most people who tell a person to leave know that the situation is severe. That wasn't my point. My post was based off of commentary on the "abused" post that let me know that people still, are very ignorant about abuse and domestic violence. I was moreso about letting people know more about domestic violence/and the emotional state that many victims are in.
And, yes, I agree. The people who are telling a person to "stay for the children", or "you can't do it on your own", are in definite need of schooling. ASAP.
However, with the statement on "work it out" I think that's purely circumstantial. I do believe that in some cases, a small percentage, that you can work out problems with abuse in a relationship. I say this because I was in an abusive relationship, however, after a period of separation and counseling..I chose to remain with the person that I was abused/being abusive to. In our situation, we made a concierted effort to work on our problems. This included several sessions/a year of anger management on both our ends, and a dedication to learn from the experience, and understand abusive behavior, so we would never go down that road again. We are now in a very healthy, and happy relationship, and we haven't had an instance of physical/emotional abuse in years.
Unfortunately, I know that my situation is a rarity. But I wanted to provide a live example of when sometimes telling someone to work it out, actually may be a positive piece of advice, DEPENDING UPON THE SITUATION. In cases with extreme, consistent violent or emotionally/verbally abusive behavior, where the abuser shows no sign of remorse, or wanting to sincerely correct themselves, (go to counseling, etc), or if the victim's safety is in question, I don't think that these are situations where "work it out" should be used. I believe that "LEAVE" is the best advice; here it is the best choice, period.
After separation = Getting out of there.
I think women are better off getting away from emotional abusers as well as physical (one leads to the other usually).
I believe in strengthening oneself with whatever therapy it takes, and being responsible for your own mental and emotional healing process. I do not believe a woman ought to take responsibility for anyone she is not the legal guardian of.
Step one
GET OUT OF THERE. Do not stop to take pictures.
Step two and three and on and on vary from case to case.
I agree with you completely here. I don;t think anyone should take ownership of another person's behavior. Is this what you think that I'm preaching? I have to ask you now directly, do you think that I am telling people to stay in potentially life threatening situations such as an abusive relationship? I have to ask this because you have made it your goal in this for every comment that I make, to say "leave, leave, leave!". I'm not asking you with snark, I'm honestly wondering if that's what you think of me. Perhaps I should have worded my OP a different way.
I also do think that consistently yelling or telling someone everyday "Leave, Leave, Leave!" isn't always the best way to go about it. Some people respond to aggressiveness, some others shy away from it and feel as if though, if they don't leave that others will be disappointed in them, or that they are failures. I think how you approach or deal with abuse victims, varies on a case by case basis.
Your post is "schooling" those of us who commented on "is this abuse" posts with the strong suggestion to Leave! Get out! Run don't walk! so
yes, it does sound like you expect people to stay and work it out or wait till they have enough money, the right job, weigh their goal weight or whatever other excuse exists.
No one who said get out also said it's easy. The fact that you say your in a good relationship now, that was once abusive may be coloring you opinion. Most do not do get back together after separation and find themselves in a good relationship. Yours is the exception, not the rule.
you wrote:
"When you're in an abusive relationship, to the outside world, the solution seems so easy, just get out and go. However, sometimes it's not that simple."
I strongly disagree. It is both that simple and of course complicated.
Step one is to get away from the abusive situation. It really is, sorry if that sounds crass, it's simply the truth.
Whether it is yelled, whispered, said in a song, or written on a wall-
the point is, there are way to many women staying when they can leave. Women stay when it is "just emotional abuse" and find themselves physically abused. the longer they stay the more the damage, to them and their children if they have them.
You also said, "Before you tell a person to leave, first assess and make sure you know he/she is able to do so. "
The point I make is that she can and has to (especially if she has children) if she wants to thrive.
So, I'm sorry if it offends you when i yell, "GET OUT NOW", but I mean it.
I would also yell, "STOP DROP AND ROLL" if someone was on fire.
I hope the words "get out now", will empower the reader who is suffering abuse and wondering if she should stay.
Here is my issue with your last comment: You believe because I was in an abusive relationship and chose to stay, that I'm not able to differentiate between whether or not a person should stay in abusive relationship. I find that incredibly discriminatory and ignorant. It's that type of narrow mind set that makes former victims feel like no matter how far they have come in their relationships and lives, that they will always be looked at the "abused girl".
I am not defined by my past abusive relationship. Though it seems as if though you would like for me to be. I am to be objective as I have said here more than once, I do not condone physical/emotional/verbal abuse in any way. I have never once said that you should stay in an abusive situation, or have encouraged others to do. And yes, I do believe that I have "educated" others on how to treat victims as evidenced by the comments displayed here.
If everyone was as enlightened about the plights of victims as you say they are on this site, then I would have never posted this, and some of the commentary in the "abused" post would not exist. But they do. I'm not sure if you read that thread, but they were some comments on there that were extremely insensitive, and many others felt the same way. If by posting this bit of information, I can somehow help or "educate" another person on how to deal with an abuse victim, then I feel like my job here is done.
I do agree with you on a few things, as I have said here ad nauseam. I do agree with you on not coaxing a victim to stay for the kids, etc. I do think victims should be told to leave, however, I don't think they should always feel pressure. Your way of communicating with victims is obviously a lot different than mine.
I also must add that I did say that my situation was the exception and not the rule. I said: "Unfortunately, I know that my situation is a rarity" and
"I do believe that in some cases, a small percentage, that you can work out problems with abuse in a relationship". I have been clear in stating this, though you chose not to read this, or maybe you missed it. I just find some of what you have said incredibly offensive to people who have been in abusive relationships. Is almost as if though you are implying that former abuse victims will always have a bias, or are not able to objective because of past experiences with abuse. That is not true. Please correct me if I'm wrong about your assumptions.
You brought up your personal experience and used to stress your point, I am pointing out how rare your situation is. I can understand how you have hope for others, based on your survival and thriving with the same person. I doubt you would feel the same way if things had gone differently.
From my POV
Everyone who is alive and breathing is treated as a survivor, until they get to thrive, as far as I'm concerned. I've worked with abused women and children, I've taught self defense in the past (it's been years) and part of that teaching includes verbal self defense. You'd be amazed at how empowering it is for women to yell, "NO!"
Women who are being abused are stronger than you think, stronger than they think. I know it.
When an abuse survivor is in my presence, I 1st congratulate them for being a survivor, so far. I do not yell, I suggest strongly & I make a very clear boundary. They know I am only available to them when they are ready for help out. Step one...
The slightest little excuse to doubt one's readiness to leave an abusive situation is sometimes all it takes for one who is in crisis to freeze up and stay or become doubly co-dependent and "try" to fix.
It's a life or death situation that most don't realize was so till someone dies or is severely injured.
hotline:
http://www.avhotline.org/
First off think you for continuing a respectful, argument. I appreciate this. Thank you also for clarifying how you approach victims, and I appreciate your work with survivors. I think that is wonderful. I am in agreement with the majority of your last comment.
The only thing I want to clarify is, that I have stated several times in this post, and other replies that I know my situation is rare. I'm well aware of this. I've had plenty of friends in abusive relationships to know that my situation and the outcome is not a common occurrence. That being said, I also am very of how strong a victim is. Remember I have been one. I have lived it. I guess because I stayed with my abuser, you assume I am not aware of this strength, which in some ways implies that a woman who choses to stay must be weak in some way. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this one as well.) I was/am strong and I know what an victim and a survivor is capable of as I have bee a victim and I am a survivor.
No, no,
I do not for one instance doubt your strength or intelligence. I know that you know how rare your personal path from survivor to thriving is.
My cut to the point approach may have something to do with being from Detroit and having lived in really hardcore dangerous neighborhoods where walking home from work was a lesson in self defense.
Did you respond directly to the comments you found crass?
I think we mostly agree on this issue, but, this post comes off, to me and possibly to anyone suffering in an abusive situation as "maybe you don't have to get out"
when the truth is you do.
For those who are reading that are being abused right now- you can get out, do it now.
yes, I did respond to some of the comments that I found crass. Hopefully, no one is getting that you have to in an abusive situation from this post. I thought I was pretty clear in my op that this wasn't about condoning violence. If that is how people are interpeting it, I do apologize, as that was not my intention. Based onthe many comments that you have made on this post that says to "LEAVE!!!!" I think you are taking me as some kind of abuse apologist or something, which I am NOT. I don't condone violence. I also do not condone ignorance and insensitivity towards abuse victims either, as that was my point of the post.
Yes, I did respond to some of the comments that I found crass. Hopefully, no one is getting that you have to remain in an abusive situation from this post. I thought I was pretty clear in my op that this wasn't about condoning violence. If that is how people are interpeting it, I do apologize, as that was not my intention. Based onthe many comments that you have made on this post that says to "LEAVE!!!!" I think you are taking me as some kind of abuse apologist or something, which I am NOT. I don't condone violence. I also do not condone ignorance and insensitivity towards abuse victims either, as that was my point of the post.
It is a simple as and as complicated as "LEAVE NOW!!!!"
that may include going to a halfway house, a friends, family members, the police station or the hospital. Continued recovery and healing may entail months or years of therapy, it may include group therapy, it could involve relocating to another city, job training, medicare, disablity, school, a new job; it could involve a myriad of different things for each individual situation.
But
first, LEAVE! LEAVE NOW! even if that means running barefoot to the nearest women's shelter.
LEAVE and TAKE YOUR CHILDREN WITH YOU!!!!
before he gets a gun out, stabs you with a knife or lights you on fire. I have worked with women who have had all 3 experiences, they now urge women to "LEAVE!!!!!RUN!!!!" at the first sign of abuse. I agree with them.
Abused Women Shelters in America:
http://www.usattorneylegalservices.com/abused-women-shelters.html
"...even though leaving an abusive relationship can be frightening, the risks of staying are too great..."
http://helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_help_treatment_prevention.htm
No one said it was easy or joyful, but, it is necessary to get away from abuse. Get yourself physically away from any kind of abuse~ NOW, it s not something to put off "until you are better equipped". THe longer you stay, more than likely, you'll become less and less equipped and the problems will become worse, not better.
As I told my mother when I was 4 years old, please don't stay together for us (the children).
Thank goodness she listened.
That's one thing that can really hurt a family. My MIL did just that (BTW, financial dependence was an issue there as well--even now she's living partially off his life insurance) and it wasn't until the children were grown that she realised just how bad that was for them.
It's especially caused problems for my husband, because he was the first one to leave, and it's damaged his relationships with his mother and sisters. Had she divorced my FIL even a couple years earlier, I think things would be significantly better between them.
(My husband is a caretaker at heart, and the pain he's been through, knowing that all he could do was save himself, is heartbreaking)
My mother went to her priest for counsel. He said, "be a better wife."
She is a beautiful, clean freak, gourmet who was raising 4 children. She had been an at home mother from 1958 till the divorce, around 1977. There is no such thing as a better wife than my mom was.
Her "friends" in the community she was part of, told her she should "suck it up, no marriage is perfect."
Social Services told her she should do what she could to stay in her middle class situation and not come to them for help until she had sold off everything she owned.
She was sexually harassed at the 1st job she took, before becoming a make-up consultant for Fashion Fair.
This was all before it was common for women to hold jobs outside of the home. It was waaaaay before daycare centers. I don't know if there were half way houses or not, they weren't common knowledge.
Times have changed and thankfully, it is easier now than ever before for women in the U.S. to get away from abusive situations, children or not.
It is still a challenge, but, women can find more support, more easily, than ever.
I'm sorry your husband experienced that. I hope he has forgiven and come to terms with his mothers decision to stay as long as she did.
I am terribly naive and haven't really been around violent domestic abuse. How do friends usually react to abuse situations? If I imagine any female friend of mine being beaten I can't really see just being inactively supportive as a viable option. I can see providing a place to stay for a while if she wants to leave. Mostly, I want to call the cops, and I want to kick some ass. I don't think that the abusee should leave, but that the abuser should be removed. I'm pretty sure that this isn't a hugely original line of thinking, so could someone throw me a reality check.
The reality is that it isn't so easy to remove someone from their house.
If the abuser is being physically abusive and the survivor calls the cops, they can remove him.
That doesn't work for emotional abuse. So the question is, how do you get the abuser to leave and not come back?
If removed by the police,
the abuser can come right back. If there is a restraining order (takes a few days to get) then the survivor can call and wait for the cops. It may be too late by the time they get there.
You are right in not being a sounding board that perpetuates the relationship. I agree with setting a healthy boundary and helping them remove the abuse from their life, in a legal and safe way.
In my experience, I am not at all supportive of staying and trying to work it out when there is abuse. I wont ever be a party to someone's abuse, and that is exactly what that is.
Thanks, that's helpful. How fast is someone free if they have assaulted and injured another person?
I do understand about the lack of instantaneous protection that a restraining order offers. While I do feel that the abuser should be removed, I see the danger of the abusee staying in the same place and the vulnerability that that would create.
I specifically avoided emotional abuse because right or wrong, I see that as a situation in which leaving really is the only choice. I'm guessing that there's no legal recourse for emotional abuse. I guess in some situations all you can do is go help the victim pack.
Thanks you so much. I am now better informed, but I still feel the need to hit the problem with a stick.
They can get out in a matter of hours.
When the cops come to get the abuser is a good time for the survivor to pack.
The house can be sold. The furniture, CDs, appliances, etc. can be put in storage, sold or replaced.
Like a fire, it's sometimes one of those situations where one has to let go of the material things (at least temporarily).
My rules when one who has left the abusive situation arrives at my door:
No calling the abuser.
No giving the abuser, his family or mutual friends (anyone who could be an informant for the abuser) my address.
No emailing the abuser from my safe house.
Breaking any one of those rules leads to immediate relocation. No one has ever broken those safety precautions in my home.
Those rules are to protect me and the inhabitants of my home.
I also encourage:
If there is physical violence, a restraining order can be filed.
Get professional counseling.
Take course in self defense ASAP.
RE: The abuser should leave
That's problematic because 1) the abuser will always know where the abusee lives.
2) A LOT of times the abusee forgives the abuser and believes his/her story of "never doing it ever ever again" and lets the abuser back into their home and their lives. Abusers can be VERY smooth talkers and oftentimes the abusee wants to believe that this was a fluke, that the person they love isn't abusive, that everything will be ok, that they'll get past it.
RE: The abusee leaving
Sometimes its the absloute best thing he/she could do. if the abusee leaves, the abuser will not definitely know where the abusee went. There is a chance the abuser could find out but the chance is better than knowing the abuser DEFINITELY knows where you live. The lapse in contact makes it harder for th eabuser to weasel their way back into the abusee's good graces, especially right after the last attack which may be a highly vunerable time for the abusee.
I know of an abused woman who thought it impossible to leave until she came home to the horrifying screams of her 2 year old son being anally sodomized by her abuser. It took surgery and stitches and a temporary colostemy bag for her to see that leaving while not the easy thing to do- was the only thing she could do.
I know of another woman who while SHE didn't leave her abuser-gave custody of the children to their father until she was ready to make the step into leaving her abuser.
I know of yet another woman who never left until the coroner came and got her.
Staying and enduring abuse is NOT easy, leaving is NOT easy, realizing that your children are being abused too and you can't protect them is NOT easy, fighting back is NOT easy and realizing that you're better off without the abuser isn't easy either. Most abusers don't walk up to a potential victim and start slapping her around. They weasel their way into the abusee's heart with a false sense of love, and security and just when the abusee thinks everything is perfect hell begins.
Thanks for giving me a partial reality check. I can fully see how it would be dangerous, or at least leave the abusee vulnerable to a relapse.
I was under no impression that it's any kind of clear cut black and white situation to the person in the relationship. I understand that there are so very many emotional and dependency issues going on and I wouldn't trivialize those. I wouldn't suggest that someone stay and try to work things out.
I would still like to know, what happens when someone does call the cops?
The woman who was on Oprah a couple weeks ago knew she was in a verbally abusive relationship. She said he had not been violent prior to the day he picked up a gun and shot her face off.
I hope women will gather their strength and get out before anything remotely so horrid occurs.
If you or anyone you know is in an abusive relationship, please call:
National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1?800?799?SAFE (7233) or TTY 1?800?787?3224.
State by state:
http://members.tripod.com/~CatEyes_TX/Hotlines.htm
HAWC, Healing Abuse, Working for Change:
1-800-547-1649
Signs of abuse:
http://www.stoprelationshipabuse.org/signs.html
Signs of abuse 2:
http://helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_types_signs_causes_effects.htm
There is a lot of money out there relatively speaking for “battered women’s shelters”. And until there’s more weight given to the word of the victim usual a women it will be tough to change the “get out mentality”. I don’t think society even want this to change. It’s a country where we bully the “weak’ and women are thusly viewed.
But it’s wrong.
Brainwashing Techniques
1. Assault on identity
2. Guilt
3. Self-betrayal
4. Breaking point
5. Leniency
6. Compulsion to confess
7. Channeling of guilt
8. Releasing of guilt
9. Progress and harmony
10. Final confession and rebirth
• Assault on identity: You are not who you think you are.
This is a systematic attack on a target's sense of self (also called his identity or ego) and his core belief system. The agent denies everything that makes the target who he is: "You are not a soldier." "You are not a man." "You are not defending freedom." The target is under constant attack for days, weeks or months, to the point that he becomes exhausted, confused and disoriented. In this state, his beliefs seem less solid.
• Guilt: You are bad.
While the identity crisis is setting in, the agent is simultaneously creating an overwhelming sense of guilt in the target. He repeatedly and mercilessly attacks the subject for any "sin" the target has committed, large or small. He may criticize the target for everything from the "evilness" of his beliefs to the way he eats too slowly. The target begins to feel a general sense of shame, that everything he does is wrong.
• Self-betrayal: Agree with me that you are bad.
Once the subject is disoriented and drowning in guilt, the agent forces him (either with the threat of physical harm or of continuance of the mental attack) to denounce his family, friends and peers who share the same "wrong" belief system that he holds. This betrayal of his own beliefs and of people he feels a sense of loyalty to increases the shame and loss of identity the target is already experiencing.
• Breaking point: Who am I, where am I and what am I supposed to do?
With his identity in crisis, experiencing deep shame and having betrayed what he has always believed in, the target may undergo what in the lay community is referred to as a "nervous breakdown." In psychology, "nervous breakdown" is really just a collection of severe symptoms that can indicate any number of psychological disturbances. It may involve uncontrollable sobbing, deep depression and general disorientation. The target may have lost his grip on reality and have the feeling of being completely lost and alone.
When the target reaches his breaking point, his sense of self is pretty much up for grabs -- he has no clear understanding of who he is or what is happening to him. At this point, the agent sets up the temptation to convert to another belief system that will save the target from his misery.
• Leniency: I can help you.
With the target in a state of crisis, the agent offers some small kindness or reprieve from the abuse. He may offer the target a drink of water, or take a moment to ask the target what he misses about home. In a state of breakdown resulting from an endless psychological attack, the small kindness seems huge, and the target may experience a sense of relief and gratitude completely out of proportion to the offering, as if the agent has saved his life.
• Compulsion to confession: You can help yourself.
For the first time in the brainwashing process, the target is faced with the contrast between the guilt and pain of identity assault and the sudden relief of leniency. The target may feel a desire to reciprocate the kindness offered to him, and at this point, the agent may present the possibility of confession as a means to relieving guilt and pain.
• Channeling of guilt: This is why you're in pain.
After weeks or months of assault, confusion, breakdown and moments of leniency, the target's guilt has lost all meaning -- he's not sure what he has done wrong, he just knows he is wrong. This creates something of a blank slate that lets the agent fill in the blanks: He can attach that guilt, that sense of "wrongness," to whatever he wants. The agent attaches the target's guilt to the belief system the agent is trying to replace. The target comes to believe it is his belief system that is the cause of his shame. The contrast between old and new has been established: The old belief system is associated with psychological (and usually physical) agony; and the new belief system is associated with the possibility of escaping that agony.
• Releasing of guilt: It's not me; it's my beliefs.
The embattled target is relieved to learn there is an external cause of his wrongness, that it is not he himself that is inescapably bad -- this means he can escape his wrongness by escaping the wrong belief system. All he has to do is denounce the people and institutions associated with that belief system, and he won't be in pain anymore. The target has the power to release himself from wrongness by confessing to acts associated with his old belief system.
If there are physical, financial, or even life-threatening reasons that you cannot leave you abuser, then I completely have sympathy for a woman who is abused and wants out but doesn't feel she can get out and wants to post a thread about her abuse but hasn't taken steps to remove herself from the relationship. Obviously, you want to give her the resources she needs to overcome those obstacles, but the whole "leave now and don't look back" is harder to tell a woman who's looking at homelessness if she tries to leave the abuser who keeps a roof over her head.
But... for women who declare that they would totally leave him except that she really truly loves him (read: is afraid of being alone) it's different because being sympathetic and listening to abuse stories and not being firm about "you have to leave, now" can become enabling of abuse. I have a very strict policy: If I catch whiffs of "I just want to crab about my situation and even though I have it within my means to leave I don't want to, so I'm going to vent my frustrations on my friends just to go back to square one" then I get a LOT less sympathetic and pretty much cut that person off. I've learned the hard way that I'm not doing anyone any favors by being the sympathetic ear when the *last* thing my friend needs is a release valve.
tell that to the woman's whose face was shot off the first time his abuse went from verbal, emotional to violent.
Would you tell someone who was in a house caught on fire to stay until she could save some money?
It's ludicrous.
"homeless" in a woman's shelter is alive.
Shot, burned, stabbed, raped, and mentally destroyed is not worth waiting till you improve your circumstances.
they can't improve from within that hell.
As they say in NOLA, when you're in hell, don't stop to take pictures, just out and get out FAST.
You're very glib.
Let's see how well you do completely isolated from friends and family, without a job, and when someone who has left you with a black eye more than once tells you "If you ever leave me, I will kill you" and you know that threat is real.
If you think that all you have to endure is occasional abuse when your husband gets mad, but if you try to leave he will attempt to kill you, you might have some pause before you try to take off. "Just leave" might have more serious connotations than simply trying to find a place to sleep at night.
And if you have children, that threat takes on a whole new dimension.
Homeless shelters aren't the safest place in the world, and domestic violence shelters might as well be the Illuminati for how hard they are to find in your community, particularly when you don't have the resources to look.
Tell you what -- the next time a woman says her husband is beating her and is threatening to kill her if she leaves, you can have her and her children move into your home immediately while she straightens shit out with a shelter and getting herself on her feet -- and you can share in her hope that the threat to come over with a gun and shoot everyone was an idle one.
I have don't that 6 times. My house is a safe house with safe house rules. I was trained in the 80's, and have kept up my training in order to volunteer as I do.
Lets see your method of placating and participating in the abuse by not strongly suggesting you are there to help her out of it, not feel ok with being in it, kill someone and then come talk to me.
I lost one that way and I wont experience that again.
Good luck to you and remember, if you ever do find yourself to be a strong enough supporter to actually take in a woman and her children, you are going to need some guidelines for safety.
Women who have allowed abuse for yrs and yrs have lost control of their lives. help them regain control.
That's I have done that 6 times. I took in 6 different women. 4 of them had children.
In addition to volunteering at women's shelters, halfway houses and teaching self defense.
I am a thriver, I help survivors. The victim mentality and the people who enable impede a survivors efforts to thrive.
Hi Mighty Ponygirl,
Have you taken in anyone who was experiencing abuse?
Are you prepared to?
I Muse has stated more than once, that she has.
Perhaps you can ask her, or others who've done the same, about their experiences. It sounds like she is writing from experience, maybe she can offer some sound advice or at least let you know what she has gone through.
I know from my experience, that if I do not implement safety precautions, things can go very badly for the abuse survivor as well as anyone living in my safe-house.
You can house someone, that is not too hard to do, but, to have a safe-house takes certain precautions. The person offering a safe-house to stay in must be assertively, clear about those rules/ precautions.
It's absurd to expect someone who has had decades of experience to go about it a way that you theorize would work better. Who are you to condemn I Muse's choice to set a clear boundary?
Setting clear boundaries is a healthy thing to do.
So, are you saying because a person has had decades of experience, that they can't learn to adapt or alter, or even consider a different approach/way of doing things? I strongly disagree with that line of thinking. I think each and every one of us has every right to criticize or analyze the method that people, such as I-muse are using. As a survivor, who had several methods used on me, I think I personally have enough experience as well to know what may or may not work. I'm not discounting I-muses body of work, b/c what she is doing is amazing. However, we should be able to have an opinion, and share said opinion on what we think works, or is right or wrong.
Wow. I have a real problem with a lot of the ideas presented here. Even aside from the fact that it is NOT always safest to leave (with intensely coercive controlling partners, stalking, violence, and risk of homicide increase after the survivor leaves), there are other concrete issues.
Since when is it empowering to tell a woman what she HAS to do in her relationship? Saying, "I'm concerned for your safety," is completely different than, "GET OUT NOW!" Because what happens if she decides not to leave? Now she's disappointed you, she's failed you, and you've effectively cut yourself off as a support system. The corrollary to GET OUT NOW! is "It's your fault that the abuse continued because you didn't listen to me." ie- "I told you so." How patronizing.
While it is very apparent that some of the commenters INTEND to cut themselves off from friends and women in that situation, is that really the best thing to do? You're adding to the isolation she is already experiencing. And you know what? You don't know her situation better than she does. She's the expert, not you.
Advocacy is based on empowerment models; it relies on giving women information to make their own decisions. It's about options and the potential outcomes of those options. The second you start telling them what to do, the likelihood of them shutting down and shutting you out increases. Because their ABUSERS make all the decisions. They don't need another person deciding for them.
And the bottom line is that her decision to stay is not the problem. His decision to continue the abuse is.
are you kidding me?
have you not experienced this at all?
Maybe I am too old, cuase I've seen way too many women go thru this. they all need the affirmation that not only is it OK to get out, it's imperative and frankly, when a child is also involved, it's not just about them anymore.
If I know a woman is being abused and she chooses to stay to the detriment of her child, I will inform her and give her warning before I call social services to rescue the child.
the bottom line is - if someone is beating you, you need to get out of there, whether you are a male, female, adult or child.
If you can't protect your child, you need another person making decisions for you. Period.
I hope you'll get out in the field, volunteer, get educated in it, and see for yourself what really helps and what just keeps the abuse going till someone dies or is destroyed in other ways.
While you're at it, work with drug abuses too. You'll discover that the best thing a loving friend or family member can do is offer to be there on the other side when they are ready to quit. Otherwise you are participating in the abuse.
get educated in it with some real life experience.
years of it.
women get hurt and die at the hands of their abusers more often than women die on fires.
if a woman is on fire, please yell, "Stop, Drop and Roll"
if she is in an abusive relationship, yell, whisper, sing, write "Get out, I'll help you"
Perhaps I misread your earlier comments. Offering assistance in escaping and validating that as an option is essential. However, repeatedly telling someone they should leave is not helpful to a lot of survivors. Particularly not when it's coming from an advocate.
And as I'm sure you know, estrangement is a high lethality indicator, and the fact of the matter is that sometimes, it's safer to stay. And an advocate's job is to increase safety and respect the choices a survivor makes, not to make them for her. That support can't be limited to if and when she decides to leave.
When there are children involved, you're still probably not making the decisions. In most states, advocates are mandatory reporters, which takes it out of your hands. I would hope, however, that you would work with the protective parent to make the report together. And if she refuses, then you do it yourself.
And please don't make assumptions about my experience in the field.
If a child is in an abusive situation and you do not take steps to get that child out of there, you are participating in the abuse.
You can not force an adult to make a choice, you can make a choice about how you will participate.
I only participate in survivors working towards thriving. I wont participate in victimization, victim mentality, etc. I wont listen to stories of repeat attacks. I will listen to how you plan to get out.
That is my choice.
If you are being abused, you are not in control of your life. You need help.
Sometimes the best thing a friend or family member can do is look in your eyes and say, "I love you, but, I wont participate in the abuse your choosing. When you choose to leave this abuse behind, I am here to help you. I am here for you." in other words, Get out. Next time she calls, "Oh I'm so glad you called, you must be ready to get out." If she says no, I repeat, "I love you, but, I wont participate in your choice to stay."
Of course I am paraphrasing, but, that is pretty much the gist of it with my loved ones.
Sometimes is takes an intervention. Just as you and your friends and family gather to give the ultimatum of rehab or being cut off to the drug addict you love.
Someone is always in control. If you aren't controlling your life, your abuser will, or your family will or the govt./police/social service/ hospital will.
Someone has control, eventually. It's important to let the abuse survivor know that she has a choice and you only support one. Her taking control of her life.
If you let her stay with you, take precautions that make your home a "safe house"
there are specific rules that can be implemented for everyone's safety.
And yes, going by your comments, you do not sound experienced or trained.
Taking control of her life does not necessarily mean leaving when you want her to. A survivor was getting her head bashed into a wall on a regular basis. There were hooks for coats on the wall and she was terrified she was going to be impaled. She believed that if she left, he would find her and kill her. No one could convince her that she could be safe anywhere.
So she moved the hooks.
Eventually, she left. But that piece of safety she created for herself was what she could do to control her life at that time.
I have a lot of respect for most of your comments in other threads, and I understand that I came out on the offensive here. I hope you'll take the suggestion to look into best practices concerning DV advocacy. Obviously we tend to react differently when dealing with loved ones, but I don't think that has to be the case. Safety is foremost, and if advocates are not willing to have a conversation about what safety looks like while survivors are still in the relationship, they're at best being negligent and at worst placing them in more danger.
You have chosen to support survivors only when they make the decisions you want them to make. You have the right to make that choice, but don't come onto a forum and behave as if there can't be a debate about whether that's the correct one.
I do not feed the victim mentality, I wont enable it.
If your lungs are breathing, your heart is beating, then you have survived this minute and are ready to survive the next. If you want to thrive by leaving a dangerous situation, I am there for you.
There are others who will talk to to you everyday while you choose to stay in an abusive/ life threatening situation. I believe those people are enabling you to stay there. If you are in my life, I will be very clear with you about what I choose to do.
Not what others choose to do,not what you choose to do
What I choose to do.
Like, right now I am choosing to take the time to explain this to someone who I think helps enable women to stay in very dangerous situations.
You and I differ in approach and opinion. You can choose what works for you and I can choose what works for me.
I lost one in a most horrendous, 11 O'clock news way. I wont go through that again and I warn so that you wont also go through that.
I respect your passion, and what you do. I know that you are trying your hardest to avoid losing another person. However, honestly I think your method sometimes does more harm than good. We are different. Our methods are different. I prefer to change my approach depending upon the situation that has been presented. Sometimes assertiveness is needed. And sometimes it's not what's best for the vicitm. Not everyone is the victim that you lost. Not every victim is the same person. Please remember that.
Do you know what children of abuse ask most often when they grow up?
"Why did you stay so long"
OK, that's enough from me on this subject here. thank you for reminding of how much work still needs to be done. Back to volunteering I go again.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for this. I feel like you could have wrote this post for me. I agree with you. I don't think being aggresive to every abuse victim is the way to go.
Stop confusing Assertive and having a healthy boundary with aggressive.
The choice to draw a line regarding what you will or wont have in your life, as a friend, collegue, family member of one in an abusive situaton (some go on for year and years) is a valid choice.
Be careful not to enable and participate in anyone's patter of abuse.
Okay, based on your constant usage of exclamation points, your tone, and your very aggressive posting style, I am assuming this is how you are coming across to the women that you work with. Please, please correct me, if I'm wrong. There is a difference between empowering a woman, and being in her face. As I said to Hara in another reply, I have worked with victims/survivors, and have been trained. That's why I can say with certainty that the way you are doing things, is not always the most effective method.
Also, I have a bone to pick with you. I am really insulted that despite what I and others have wrote here, that you think somehow I,(Opheelia, etc), am enabling victims to stay with abusers, just b/c my method and viewpoint is a lot different than yours. I'm not saying being assertive or even aggressive in some situations does not work. Because it does, and I have been privy to seeing the power that it can have in getting women to leave their abusers. I'm not going to take away the significance of this.
However, I don't think that it's for everyone. Sometimes, victims CANNOT leave. Sometimes it is a matter of financial resources, safety, and mentality. I do believe in letting a victim know that they have options. That they are worthy of a loving, safe, and healthy relationship and environment. I think that you think that I just sit and listen to victims without even having them consider the possibility of leaving. I definitely want them to know that there is a way out. However, I refuse to be in your face about it. That's just not my MO. As a survivor, I remember people getting in my face about my situation, and believe me, it does not always empower a victim to leave. In some cases it made me more helpless, like, "Damn, they keep telling me this, why can't I do it? what's wrong with me". Sometimes assertively, consistently telling a victim to leave can have the opposite effect that you intended.
Are you suggesting that sometimes the safest thing to do is stay with an abuser?
I strongly disagree. "Get out as fast as you can", is sound advice. How that ends up happening varies from case to case.
In talk about how to intervene I'm seeing one huge gap and that is the importance of intervening with an abuser to let that person know that he (or much less often she) is responsible for the abuse and this is unacceptable no matter what the abused person did wrong.
Not everyone can challenge abusers on their behavior for safety reasons, but those who can too often don't. When abusers see their victims being scolded while they get treated with deference (even if it is out of fear) that sends a dangerous message.
When abusers complain about their victims they should be told to leave if they are even tempted to become abusive.
Mrs. S
Have you been trained to help anyone who was experiencing abuse? Have you considered volunteering in that way? I hope you will.
You can work with a Women's Shelter or Halfway House and learn more about having a safe-house. With that training, you can be prepared for the day someone you know, or a friend of a friend, needs a safe place to get away to while she regains control of her life.
That training will include some assertiveness, it will include setting clear boundaries and it will include safety precautions/ rules.
Yes. I have been trained, and I have worked/volunteered with abusive women/worked at a shelter. That's why I can say with absolutely certainty that being assertive, or being in your face about telling a woman to leave, is not always the best method. Also, I have been in an abusive relationship. I know firsthand how I felt when people approached me a certain way.
I think that some of misinterpreting what I, Opheelia, and others have been saying. I think you and I-muse have interpreted our comments as "You must stay with your abuser", which is definitely not what we are saying, at all. From personal experience sometimes listening, and being supportive is the best way. I'm sorry, there's no other way that you can convince me of this. I'm not saying that telling someone "Leave, leave, leave!" constantly isn't a great option as well, and I don't want to take away from the impact that it could have in helping another abused woman take control of her life and get out of the situation; this is where we see eye to eye. However, there is no one size fits all way of dealing with a victim or an abuse survivor.
Yes. I have been trained, and I have worked/volunteered with abused women/worked at a shelter. That's why I can say with absolutely certainty that being assertive, or being in your face about telling a woman to leave, is not always the best method. Also, I have been in an abusive relationship. I know firsthand how I felt when people approached me a certain way.
I think that some of misinterpreting what I, Opheelia, and others have been saying. I think you and I-muse have interpreted our comments as "You must stay with your abuser", which is definitely not what we are saying, at all. From personal experience sometimes listening, and being supportive is the best way. I'm sorry, there's no other way that you can convince me of this. I'm not saying that telling someone "Leave, leave, leave!" constantly isn't a great option as well, and I don't want to take away from the impact that it could have in helping another abused woman take control of her life and get out of the situation; this is where we see eye to eye. However, there is no one size fits all way of dealing with a victim or an abuse survivor.