You all know how it goes: the second a female passes judgement on another female that some male(s) somewhere find attractive, that first chick is just a jealous and insecure bitch.
With the advent of the Megan Fox hoopla, I was quite confused about the whole situation of a woman who apparently (no way did I pay money to see Transformers, ha) couldn't act being popular- especially since she couldn't really be popular for her looks, since she wasn't even a natural beauty like Marilyn Monroe (who could sing and act course) or something.
While plauged with ennui, I searched for an answer. Every where I went, here were the two types of answers from people:
1. You are totally right.
2. You are just jealous, get over her.
Why is it that women can't comment on other women these days (besides that, as nothing but physical objects, we aren't supposed to view ourselves/others in that way)? As a bisexual, I particularly find this confusing when a heterosexual male is permitted to call a woman unattractive and I am not permitted, as we both find interest in females.
What kind of response is appropriate for this? I have come to realize that my usual "fuck you, fuck do you know, fucking idiot" is not really an appropriately educated/ing retort.
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I would suggest that a good part of the reaction you are receiving is due to your approach. The only thing "I dont know why anyone likes her; shes not even pretty!" sounds like is flat out jealousy.
I feel that this post is extremely confusing in what you are trying to explain. But either way, this idea of jealousy wouldnt even be an issue if we spent more time doings something other than judging each other superficially...
I would echo this. If you say that you personally don't find her attractive and someone said you were jealous then you might have a case. But if you say you don't like her and don't know why anyone does and can't understand why anyone would be attracted to her - then it doesn't surprise me people would think you are jealous.
Also I also don't understand what you mean by not being a 'natural' beauty. What does that mean? What isn't natural?
Well, like if ghosts do your makeup, or you have a wizard cast a spell of beauty upon you.
You know, supernatural beauty.
Songbirds help my girlfriend dress in the morning, but her beauty is all her own.
You're going to have to explain what you mean when you said that Megan Fox isn't a "natural beauty." Her looks may not be to your taste, but I, personally, find her stunning (and am also pretty "meh" when it comes to Marilyn Monroe). I don't think that you're jealous of her looks because you don't find her beautiful, but you sound as if you aren't making allowances for others to have different opinions.
And for what it's worth, I was actually impressed with Fox's acting in the first Transformers. But my expectations were really low, FWIW.
I guess the whole "you're just jealous" can be a function of how vehemently you dislike a person who you haven't met. For me, I think Fox is entertaining, but can see why people don't like some of the things she says in public. However, hating on her seems a little, I don't know, personal for the majority of the public who hasn't even met her. (Not saying this is your reaction to her, BTW, I was commenting in general.)
I have to agree with ElleStar that my reaction to your line about Megan Fox not being a "natural" beauty like Marilyn Monroe was the same as hers. I personally find Megan Fox extremely attractive, much more so than Marilyn Monroe. The point is, opinions about looks are for the most part subjective (though I get that there are cultural ideas of beauty). I do agree with you that the "you're just jealous" response is extremely annoying and false when received in response to a valid criticism. For instance, if you want to criticize the film industry for favoring beautiful people so much over those with talent who may not meet conventional standards of beauty and are accused of just being jealous of pretty actresses or (as is my case) you complain about the girls gone wild videos or beauty pageants or the objectification of women and are told that you are just jealous then it really is infuriating. I think the "you're just jealous" response is actually believed by some and by others is a way of making the person with the complaint feel insecure and an easy way to dismiss the criticism. However, your post was slightly confusing because you seem to dislike Fox based on the fact that you don't think she can act and don't find her attractive. I find the first reason to be a valid reason for disliking an actress but not the second. (Or perhaps it is an ok reason for you to dislike her but doesn't mean everyone should) I mean, if she couldn't act but looked like Monroe would you think she had a right to fame then?
By the way, I get your point that men slam women based on their looks all the time with no backlash-but I don't think women should aspire to that.
By the way, I get your point that men slam women based on their looks all the time with no backlash-but I don't think women should aspire to that.
Nah, I just mean as far as her plastic surgeries go. Its like, you know, comparing someone who spent 20 years and a ton of money studying music to someone who was born a prodigy. Its just that it seems natural to pay attention to a prodigy, but someone who spent a long time is just like everyone else.
Really, I personally don't care about Megan Fox or her appearance enough to have much of an opinion on either. This post was mostly about the claim of jealousy thats given to women when they express an opinion on other women's looks (or not).
Really, I personally don't care about Megan Fox or her appearance enough to have much of an opinion on either.
Really, you do.
Regardless of whether Fox met conventional beauty standards before having work done (and I have no idea what she has had done and not and what she looked like before) it doesn't matter to the director looking to cast an attractive actress or the people who go to movies because they think the actress looks "hot" what she looked like when she was younger. (Comparing the attention that child prodigies get for displaying an innate talent to the reasons why a beautiful actress receives attention is like comparing apples to oranges). I also want to point out that if I find out one of my favorite musicians wasn't a musical prodigy and got that way through lots of practice it doesn't make me enjoy the music any less. If you, as a bisexual, want to comment that you personally don't find someone attractive that is up to you (I have made the comment that I don't see the appeal of a lot of male actors) and as long as it is not done in a malicious manner there is no valid reason to get the "you're jealous" response but when you go on sites and complain that because you don't think someone is "naturally" attractive they should not be famous then people are not going to understand where you are coming from and think you are jealous. Now, if you and friends are talking about actresses you think are really attractive/would like to date/etc. and you comment that Megan Fox isn't really your type and you go more for the looks of "So and So" then it sounds less jealous and less like you believe the whole world should conform to your opinion.
I think there may actually be something to the “you’re jealous” response. Bare with me while I try to put my thoughts into words….
Megan Fox is popular for her looks – whether they are natural or not doesn’t matter. Women are mainly judged on looks and Megan is succeeding with hers. While looks shouldn’t make a star, they do.
There seem to be scripted responses that everyone is our society just knows. To insult a man, say that he sucks in bed, has a small penis, and/or is gay. To insult a woman, tell her she is ugly, fat, and/or a slut. I think the "you're just jealous" is just a scripted response.
But I also think that by saying you don’t think she is attractive is like pulling out one of the scripted insults. It shouldn’t matter if she is attractive or not. So I don’t know what a good response to “You’re just jealous” is, but I think instead of critiquing Megan Fox’s looks you should critique Hollywood’s star system that requires beautiful actresses (and actors can be schlubs).
Marilyn Monroe was a "natural beauty"? I don't think plastic surgery was available back then, but she bleached her hair, used plenty of makeup, and wore clothing that was very well-engineered, especially by today's standards. I always thought natural beauty meant someone looked great and didn't do that kind of stuff.
Plastic surgery was definitely available back then.
Honey, why would you even want to point out how unattractive you think another human being is? That's just shallow and downright mean.
When I hear someone saying how ugly they think so-and-so is, that doesn't tell me very much about the appearance of so-and-so, but it does tell me a great deal about the ugliness of the speaker's character.
I can see the overall question here but it kind of took a different turn than what I was expecting. I too have been told I was just jealous when commenting on Fox, however my point was much different than her not being a "natural beauty".
As a hobby actress I find Fox's acting skills to be borderline deplorable and I find most of what she does to be cheesy. Whenever I hear a guy friend say something about "I can't wait to see Megan Fox's new movie. She looks so hot." I point out that its pretty cliche and he-man of them to be so obvious about their placement of what makes an actress a person that you want to watch. I say something like, I'd respect you more if you at least took into account a persons actual talent at their craft.
Take for example Natalie Portman:
Shes stunningly beautiful and INSANELY talented!!
She has an image that isn't hurtful to the lives of the rest of the women in this world by pushing it into society's minds that over collagen lips and suctioned arms to be the definitive of ones attractiveness and desirability.
Now, once I say this all I hear is:
"your so jealous that you could never be as hot as her! hahaha"
No. There is nothing that makes me jealous of a person who's credibility and success in their career is based entirely upon sleezy men's desire to do them.
Now do I think Fox is attractive? Of course! I think she is very attractive...but there are so many attractive women in this world who are saving the planet, expanding their art, making new discoveries in science and medicine, taking care of others, etc.
I just wish it was more attractive to be an inspiring woman than to have really big boobs.
Personally, I wouldn't describe Natalie Portman as all that inspiring either, at least not anymore.
Anyway, I think there's a big difference between discussing oppressive beauty standards, and bashing another woman's looks. If anything the latter sets back the former.
FUCVK!! It's over. Thsi si why I don't trust people.
Natalie Portman was my dream girl until I discovered Tina Fey. Neither Britney nor Megan ever did it for me. Honestly, yuck. But you know what? Your sleazy friend is going to see a movie. He's not marrying her. Do you think Brad Pitt has his fan base and gets the big roles because of his acting talent?
Also, Natalie Portman is rail-thin. That's not why I liked her, I prefer curvier looks (or to you "really big boobs.") And she looks healthy enough. But how is her idealized image not hurtful if Megan's is?
I see your point. I've just never thought of Natalie's thinness to be something that she has to work at feverishly with a treadmill or with a plastic surgeon. She always seemed to just be a naturally small person. But I guess thats irrelvent to my comment.
I agree she's not been on top of her game lately and I really was just using her as an example.
I see what you mean about the Brad Pitt thing. But if we look critically at the works in which he has been involved with, he has made an impact on his art. I can watch a Brad Pitt movie and be both aesthetically and intellectually stimulated. hahaha.
When Fox randomly removed her clothes in Shia Lebouf's backyard in Transformers 2....well...lets just say I was disappointed that movie makers don't even feel as thought they need to create a scenario of why a women needs to be undressing ot have her do it.
Brad Pitt's been in some good movies as well as some stinkers. Meg's only ever been in crap, apparently, but just as Brad's enduring hotness led him to be cast in movie after movie and some of them turned out to be good ones, if the new It Girl lasts she's bound to be in something not-entirely-awful sooner or later. If Brad (whom I like, but he is a dummy) is too much of an icon to assail, how about Ashton Kutcher? Even fine actors like Denzil Washington and George Clooney probably got farther on their looks than their genuine talent. The guy from Titanic actually grew up to be a decent actor, but who'd ever have heard of him if he hadn't been a beautiful idiot back in the day? And then you have a few geniuses like Morgan Freeman and Angela Lansbury who slipped through on extraordinary talent. I would suggest that the true sexism lies in the fact that men are rated hot for longer. It's not that Ashton is any better an actor than Megan, it's just that his fans will want to bang him into his thirties.
As for Megan stripping, I wouldn't see Transformers 2 on a dare, but her bare tummy really was the strongest aspect of Transformers 1. It's sad that the eye candy is the only thing they did right, but that's Hollywood.
As for Natalie, I'm not suggesting that her appearance isn't natural to her (even though she just broke my heart into a zillion weeping pieces, see above). But most girls/women would have to starve themselves to be that thin.
Don't bother reading all that. My point is that if you wanted to see genuine acting talent, the Hollywood Summer Action Blockbuster was not the place to find it. Even Natalie sounded like an idiot (and looked smokin' hot) in the Star Wars prequels.
Maybe this all boils down to my beef with Transformers 2....The "Jive Robots" and a completely unexplained scene in which Fox's character decides to change in the yard in the middle of the day for 3-5 minutes with the camera zoomed in tight. lol
Oh Hollywood! Annoying.
No argument there, I wouldn't see it or Transformers 1 again with a gun to my head.
Marilyn Monroe had her teeth fixed and her chin and nose done. Natural? Debatable. Determined by her genetic makeup? No.
Regardless of Megan Fox's, Natalie Portman's or Marilyn Monroe's acting abilities or aesthetic qualities, I think this article makes an excellent point. Basically, a woman is not allowed to criticize another woman if the second woman is more "better" - more attractive, talented, etc. And that's all there is to it. Example?
Woman #1 makes an observation that Woman #2 is too thin. Well, Woman #1 is secretly just jealous that SHE can't be that thin, so she is lashing out because ALL women are naturally petty and jealous.
Woman #1 makes an observation that Woman #2 is wearing too much makeup/a dress or skirt that is too short/flashing too much cleavage. Well folks, Woman #1 is just jealous that Woman #2 is flaunting her hot body, and getting all the man-attention that all women "naturally" crave.
And that's all it boils down to. I think the example of Megan Fox is applicable because she is the epitome - and I use that word loosely here folks - of what men desire sexually in their women. So, naturally, all women want to look like her. Following this line of thought, logically, if a woman makes a criticism of her, whether it's her acting abilities, looks, personality, whatever, that woman, regardless of the factual nature of her criticism, is obviously only making that comment because deep inside her soul she is an angry, bitter shrew, furious that Megan Fox is getting more attention than she is.
Another example of our fabulous, not-at-all-dysfunctional society.