I was scanning the radio this morning and stumbled upon a local morning show that I don’t normally listen to. I was intrigued by the few seconds the scanner caught because it was a woman explaining why she didn’t change her last name when she married. This is one of my very favorite topics, so I listened. In the next segment a man called and asked the hosts to help him with an intervention. I got the idea that these interventions are meant to be fun or funny, but this one very quickly went very wrong.
The man, Ryan, said he is getting married in three weeks, but something has been bothering him for awhile. His fiance doesn’t want to change her last name. She told him a long time ago, but he was never sure how to bring up his problem with the idea, so it was never discussed. Hence the intervention. So they get Stacy, the fiancé, on the phone and break the news to her: Ryan feels very strongly that you take his last name.
She stayed very calm and explained that she felt very strongly about keeping her name. She said the kids could have his name, but she liked her identify—for professional and personal reasons—and was going to keep it. He kept repeating that he wanted them to “be a family,” as if having different lasts names renders you not so. Ryan said he’d be ok with Stacy hyphenating her name, but his last name must be incorporated somehow. Stacy didn’t want to do that, and never once did either of them suggest that he hyphenate as well or that he take her name in order to “be a family.”
Neither was budging, and while Stacy remained calm (though a little shocked and teary at her fiancé’s proclamation), Ryan started to get really upset, even hinting that he may not be able to move forward with her if she didn’t agree to change her name. At this point the radio hosts were befuddled and I think they were leaning toward ending the call and letting these two deal with the issue in a more private forum.
But suddenly Ryan said, “You have to make a choice Stacy. I feel strongly about this, and if you can’t change your mind, I have to call it off. Who cares about all the money we spent. It’s either me or your name.”
And then he hung up.
And everyone else was shocked and confused. They quickly took Stacy off the air after asking her if she was ok (she just cried and said she couldn’t believe this was happening). And they went to break shortly after.
Wow right? I mean, change your name or I won’t marry you? Holy shit. Even if she gave in and agreed to that, how could he accept it? She’d be marrying him under an ultimatum. She’d probably always regret her decision on some level, and maybe even come to resent him in some way. She’ll have made the choice not willingly, but out of desperation and resignation. Maybe eventually she’d get used to it and accept her decision, but it will always have been made under these circumstances. Is it worth that? I surely hope not.
Full disclosure: I plan to keep my last name. And I’ve always been very open and passionate about it, even writing about it several times on my personal blog .
What do you think of the above scenario? Should Stacy give in? Was Ryan crazy for posing the ultimatum? Should they even get married at this point? How might they work this out?
Also, what did you do or what do you plan to do if you marry?
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Ryan has a right not to marry someone who refuses to take his name just as Stacy has a right not to marry someone who demands she takes his name. Because they both feel very strongly about this issue and a compromise can't be reached they shouldn't marry. Stacy is probably much more compatible on a whole with someone who respects her ideals and last name and Ryan is much more compatible with a woman who isn't as attached to her last name as Stacy is.
He should have come forward with this LONG before now but other than that- ending the relationship due to incompatibilities are a painful necessity
This isn't just a case of different values. It's not as if he's a Democrat and she's a Republican and he doesn't feel comfortable marrying someone with different viewpoints. This is a case of coercion, or attempted coercion. He's not trying to convince her of his viewpoint; he's telling her that, unless she does something clearly contrary to her views and ideals, he will refuse to marry her.
Certainly, ideological compatibility is a complicated thing; this is not that. This is an asshole trying to make his fiance enter marriage under conditions she is obviously not comfortable with or agrees to in the least.
"Even if she gave in and agreed to that, how could he accept it?"
Very true. Even if she were to magically change her mind and agree to take his name, it would poison the whole marriage.
I'm not quite sure I buy this. I mean, do I agree with Ryan here? No, of course not, I think he's being ridiculous. However, it is my impression that the is an issue that had recently come to the forefront. It seems that Ryan is a traditional person (something he has every right to be), and assumed his wife would take his last name. In a society where this is the norm, that's not an unreasonable assumption, whether you agree or disagree with it. To him (however ridiculous it may be), this throws a wrench into his marriage. That's not coercion, he's not blackmailing her- that's laying down his own standards for the relationship in which he will have to spend the rest of his life.
Stacy has every right to lay down her own standards, and if they are not compatible either one of them has the rule to break off the engagement.
Except the article says she told him about this "a long time ago." So why is it coming up now when they are engaged? Given that it's important to the man, he should have discussed his position with her before the engagement and in a much more respectful way than on a radio talkshow.
I can totally see this not coming up earlier--I had a boyfriend who was headed that way once. We happened to talk about the name issue one night (not as a prelude to engagement, more commenting on some acquaintance about to be married) and it became clear that while I had no intention of ever changing my name, he expected that his wife would take his. And what did we do? Switch topics--it wasn't really that big a deal, considering that we weren't about to get married anytime soon.
This is exactly the kind of thing that's very easy -not- to talk about until it really comes down to the wedding day. My guess is that this guy (like I'm pretty sure my boyfriend was doing at the time) assumed that when push came to shove, she'd change her mind. After all, most women do. And then he was shocked and dismayed when it turned out that his maybe-future-wife actually did care at least as much as he did about the issue, and wasn't about to back down.
Er, most women take their husbandss name, is what I meant. Not necessarily that most women change their minds about it.
Thing is, though, he's trying to control her behavior. Not only that, but he expects her to change herself for him. Let's take this a bit farther. Would it be okay for a person to tell his fiance to lose fifteen pounds before he married her, because his conception of marriage involves a wife that is, to him, physically attractive? Or to get surgery? Or to quit her job because he doesn't think a wife should work? I could go on.
Sure, he has the right to his opinions. But trying to force them onto someone else and threatening to deny them marriage otherwise does make me think "coercion".
That argument fails because she's not entitled to marry him.
True. Perhaps "coercion" is the wrong word. Can we use "dickery"?
For example, say person A tells person B that they'll only have sex with them if they change their appearance in some way (lose weight, etc.). Is person B entitled to sex with person A? No. Is person A being an asshole? Yep.
The part that smacks of coercion is getting her on the radio, putting her on the spot and making her argue in front of and against a whole gang of people. (that also qualifies as dickery.)
Being a a-hole yes being coercive- only if the person is not in a position to make informed decisions.
She isn't entitled to marry him, Person B is not entitled to sex with Person A. These are all things that DO come with terms predetermined by the person you desire to marry or have sex with as you have NO right to unilaterally decide someoe WILL marry you or force yourself on someone for sex.
Just as she shoun't be coerced neither should he. If he dosn't want to marry a woman who doesn't want to take his last name and she refuses to take his name that's an irreconcilable difference.
They wouldn't be happy together and shouldn't be forced into it, better to be forced out of ever having to get a divorce than being pushed into a marriage you don't want to be in to begin with.
Breaking it off does them both a favor.
By the way I'm married and took my husband's name. I was never tightly attached to my last name (or my first name for that matter I want to change it but haven't decided on a new name). My husband however bears a deep deep attachment to his last name. If my first name was osmething I could really love I would've just dropped the last name altogether lol.
Assuming I get married, I fully expect for my wife to keep her name. If she'd like to take mine, that's fine, but I'd prefer she keep her maiden name, quite honestly.
So that's my reaction to his ultimatum.
Problems I have run into before are when kids enter the picture. Arguments can arise about whose last name the child will use. Sometimes employing a hyphenated name with both the husband and the wife's surname works, but I often find that complicates matters at times, particularly during standardized tests (not enough blanks). If kids take either the husband or the wife's last name, then it sometimes causes confusion in having a parent with a different last name than their own.
Would you offer to change your last name, for the sake of the kids?
I struggle with this issue a lot. I don't get along with either one of my parents, so having either of their last names just doesn't seem right to me. However, I also want to show society that you can be married and not have it be a traditional marriage. For me keeping my name would be a way to show that to the world. However, I do not like my maiden name because I don't get along with my father, and I am not close enough with my mother to change my last name to her last name. On this matter particularly I think that this guy is a piece of work, and no woman should be marrying him.
I agree with Phenicks, but at the same time think Ryan is blowing the whole thing out of proportion. when we got engaged, and later got married, my husband was a little upset when I decided to keep my name. But it turns out that each of us keeping our name doesn't affect how much we love each other or our willingness to work out our serious issues to we can stay together. The only downside about having seperate names is that people outside of our relationship don't always respect our choice. Ryan is upset because taking the man's name is a tradition, and a lot of people can't deal with stories that don't go by THE script. Maybe they are better off without each other, but it's pretty shitty to wait til three weeks before the wedding to spring this ultamatum on her. This is something that should have been figured out before the deposits were paid and the invitations were sent out.
Oh I totally agree he was wrong to wait that long before coing clean about how he felt but then again many people wait until the last minute to come clean about a LOT of things before or even more heartbreaking AFTER marriage. It's heartbreaking, its fucked up but it as for th ebest that they spoke up about their unhappiness than to keep quiet to put on a farce.
I know this isn't logical, but I bet at some level, Ryan feels that Stacy doesn't really love him. Like, if she really really really loved him, why wouldn't she want his name? Isn't she proud that she's married to him? Doesn't she want to let everyone know that she's married TO HIM??
Let's face it--to be a wife in a lot of ways means "to sacrifice" your identity for your family. So, if Stacy doesn't what to sacrifice her last name, then he probably feels that she won't sacrifice other things.
Not that I agree with that though.
As for changing my last name, that would depend on how cool my husbands last name is.
I think I'd definitely give my kids my maiden name as their middle name....maybe I'd ask my husband to add my maiden name to his middle name.
Yep, it does seem like he's saying "If you really loved me, you'd do it!"
And as I was taught in seventh grade, the correct response to that is, "If YOU really loved me, you'd respect that I don't want to."
Funny, this is exactly what we were told to do in sex-ed if someone tried to pressure us into sex.
The family issue is interesting to me because my father and his oldest sister carried my grandmother's maiden name, while their younger sisters carried her married name. I'm not aware of that causing any issues for them.
"Let's face it--to be a wife in a lot of ways means "to sacrifice" your identity for your family."
Pfffffffft!!!!
Okay, yes, relationships involve sacrifice and compromise, but if it involves a sacrifice of IDENTITY (particularly only one person's identity) that's...that's just...blech.
But if Mommy is galavanting around Europe or going out to lunch with her friends and spending money on other things----what about the children! Who will take care of her husband!
[/sarcasm]
Stacy should run away as fast as her legs should can carry her.
I don't think there's anything wrong with Ryan wanting them to have the same last name, and there's not necessarily anything wrong with him wanting it to be his name. There is a huge something wrong with his utter disregard for the feelings of a woman he supposedly loves and his willingness to hurt and humiliate her in public in order to pressure her into doing something she doesn't want to do. To me, this reeks of control issues.
To nitpick ableism -- Ryan's not "crazy" for laying down an ultimatum, he's an asshole.
You beat me to it. Stacy should run like her panties are on fire. He should not have waited until this late to bring it up and he is a douche for putting her on the spot publicly. He is a controlling jerk. I happen to be of the personal opinion that men who always expect women to be the one to make sacrifices 'for the sake of the family' are assholes anyway. Maybe he's doing her a favor.
Yeah, I stopped listening to morning talk radio because of these kinda calls. It's like really, what right does that guy have calling his wife out like that in a public forum. At least the radio people weren't taking his side after he started getting all angry. I've really never felt too much attachment to my last name, so I have no real convictions about changing it or not. Neither does my boyfriend. I always imagined us combining our last names, since they are incredibly similar (Hild and Holden... could easily be Hilden or Hold). It's not that I don't think the guy can feel strongly about the issue, since I feel the woman is totally entitled to her opinion. People get weird about names. I do think they should compromise on it, at least if they loved each other enough to want to get married I would hope they would be open to compromise. Hyphenating seems to work (as long as they BOTH do it) or like my idea of combining the names. That way everyone has the same name, both of them have to go through the annoying name changing paperwork (like driver's licenses and all that annoying stuff) and they can be a family (whatever a name has to do with that).
I know that a lady I used to work with got married and had her named changed but a few weeks later she was really upset that she had changed it since she liked having the Italian heritage in her name. Everyone's got their own thing going on with their names, but relationships have to be about compromise and any dude that gets that enraged about a name and controlling you (seriously, he sounded really scary to me) I would really think twice about marrying.
Yeah, I can get behind this. I'm not saying that Ryan isn't acting like a jerk- he is. But I guess I feel that with something as big as marriage, people are entitled to be jerks about certain things. That said, bringing it on radio was not cool.
I've always disliked hyphenating, because it makes things needlessly complicated and then what about when our kids grow up and get married? You can't hyphenate a hyphenated name. I also would not change my name mostly because there's a social stigma attached to that, for a man. I really would not care whether my wife changes her name or not. I think I would probably at least end up taking her maiden name as my middle name, or something along those lines.
Multiple last names aren't all that tough - much of Latin America has them!
The usual pattern is that if Maria Garcia Lopez marries Juan Hernandez Vallejo, their children will have the surnames Lopez Vallejo. It's not perfect, as the male-line names are still the ones preserved through generations, but it's closer to equality than the standard European system.
That's what I was thinking. :) I remember learning about those name endings in Spanish class (way back in the day in highschool) and was always like "Hey, that sounds pretty close to right on."
I also think in some countries, they do it this way:
If Maria Garcia marries Juan Hernandez, her name would be Maria Garcia de Hernandez . . . and her kids surname would be Hernandez. How do you guys feel about that?
I thought that was pretty much how it went in every country... I can't think of one right now that has the kids take the mother's maiden name. They may keep her maiden name but generally it is attached tot he father's name. So the father's name is always a given but the mother's name is sometimes added on kinda as a courtesy? I dunno. I like the idea of kids taking both names over just the father's name. They aren't just HIS kids after all. And I'm not going to get Eurocentric on the "de Hernandez" name thing since I'm not gonna knock another country's system of naming and imply ours is better in any way. I think it's about time the woman in a marriage in every country got some recognition on person hood and was allowed to keep her family lineage going. Or if she's allowed not get practically stoned to death anytime she mentioned it. *shrug*
If he feels so strongly about it, why doesn't he change his last name to hers? Apparently he wants her to change her last name so they can be a family..well they can achieve that by him changing his last name to hers.
Run Stacy Run!!!! Ryan has the right to marry whatever he wants but he has monopolized this woman and has been dishonest about his feelings about something that should be her decision. What other kinds of decisions will he make for her if she gives in on this one???
The idea that women should change their names for the sake of the kids or to be a "family" is a load of crap. If a man wants a one-name family then he should change his name. This isn't about "family," this is about male pride. Ryan doesn't want everyone to know that he couldn't reign his woman in.
This issue bothers me to know end. I'm married and use MY name (I refuse to call it my "maiden name"--so archaic). It was my decision and I'm sure my husband would preferred that I changed my name but he realized it was my call--not his. I did not keep my name because I am close to my family--I kept my name because it is part of who I am.
Our children have both last names but my son uses my husband's name and my daughter uses mine. Both found it cumbersome to hyphenate. It is only confusing for people who cannot think beyond tradition.
Ryan has a right not to marry someone who refuses to take his name??? No, he doesn't! Women have the right to retain or change their surnames, and anyone who refuses to accept that is denying that right. No-one has a right to deny others their rights. Women have rights. Repeat that to yourself every night before you go to sleep Phenicks,Canlord and Athenia.
The idea that a woman sacrificed her life for her family was also sexist. Equal partnership is a much better idea.Repeat that to yourself every night before you go to sleep Phenicks,Canlord and Athenia.
Ryan is a bully and a coward. He tried to coerce and shame Stacey, and showed a deep lack of regard for her. I really hope the marriage is off for Stacey's sake. Marrying someone who doesn't respect you is a very bad idea. I also hope Ryan runs about telling people he called the wedding off because Stacey refused to cave in to his bullying, and that people smack him on the head when he does so.
Ryan has a right not to marry someone who refuses to take his name??? No, he doesn't!
Yes, he does. If he doesn't want to marry her because she refuses to take his name, that's his right. He's no more obligated to marry her than she is to marry him.
If we want to call him an asshole for refusing to marry her for that reason, that's our right. And we're very clearly exercising it, and with good reason, because it would appear that he is indeed an asshole.
The system works.
What the hell? Of course Ryan has a right not to marry her- for any reason whatsoever, no matter no petty, and that includes this. It's his life. Whether or not you agree with it is irrelevant- you can't force him to do anything.
SHE DOESNT HAVE A RIGHT MARRY RYAN IF HE DOESNT WANT TO MARRY HER!!!! You MUST repeat that to yourslf at night. Stacey has that SAME RIGHT NOT TO MARRY SOMEONE SHE DOES NOT WANT TO MARRY. NO one has a right to marry someone who does NOT want to marry THEM.
Where on Earth are you getting the idea people here think Stacy has the right to force Ryan into marriage?
She's having some difficulty understanding my posts.
"Ryan has a right not to marry someone who refuses to take his name??? No, he doesn't!"
Perhaps the difficulty lies in the above sentence....
I have explained it as clearly as I can.
My point on this, although there are people out there who believe the personal is always the political, I also believe the personal is always personal.
No one is entitled to sex, or to have his partner change his name. If this is the make or break argument, so be it. Nothing wrong with it.
Giving the fact that you can change both of your name to something awesome like "Baby Jesus in can" makes me wonder how lame some people are....yeah I was kidding....
I got married in 2004, and my husband and I both kept our original names. He was completely ok with this, and I would not marry a man who wasn't. This was honestly not an issue for him, not even a little bit. Whenever I hear about stuff like this, it just makes me extra proud of him, and I realize how unusual he really is.
I knew at the time that keeping my name was atypical, but I was SHOCKED at how much it confused and even upset people. I mean come on, this is the 21st century! I have to explain to EVERY doctor, insurance agent, and telemarketer that yes, we are married, and no, we don't have the same name.
I actually had to take a copy of our marriage license to my husband's workplace so he could add me to his insurance. Ditto with our mortgage lender, who required a certified copy! (I know for a fact that they do not require this of couples with the same name.)
One time we went to a corporate event that required ID at the door. We were identified on the guest list as Mr. and Mrs. XXX. They almost didn't let me in! The attendant said, "But don't you have any ID with the name XXX.?" I said no, I did not, because that IS NOT MY NAME. I also don't have any ID that says Princess Jasmine, because that is not my name either.
So for all those planning on keeping their names, I support you, and be prepared!
My mom didn't change her name, and I never heard about her having any problems like that, but maybe she just didn't tell me. I remember a few people in elementary school asking me if my parents were really married, or if they were divorced, (based on the school directory listing), but it wasn't a big deal. Maybe they had more problems when they were first married, I don't know, but I don't think she ever regretted it. I don't think I'll change my last name, although I'd be ok with something like each of us taking the other's last name as a new middle name. And since you can't hyphenate names forever (exponential growth after a few generations), I'd probably give the kids my last name as a middle name and the dad's last name as their actual legal last name, or something like that. It doesn't bother me too much to choose one last name for the kids, but I don't want to go to the hassle of changing my last name-- Its the name on my degrees, my email addresses, everything.
As for the guest list, the people who put you on the guest list should have gotten your name right. Its not really the fault of whoever had the list if your name wasn't on there.
Whether tradition is "important" to Ryan or not, using an ultimatum to get what he wants (especially over something that should be such a small matter) is just frightening in an adult relationship.
Were I Stacy I'd be running for the hills right now, thinking "Man, I just dodged an effing BULLET in the form of that douchebag!" Although I'm sure she loves him for something...
The name thing doesn't matter a lot to me - I feel like no one should be required to give up their name when getting married or whatever (neither of my parents did, and I've got a hyphenated last name). The bigger issue at hand is the guy's reaction.
Well, to be fair, everyone is allowed to have his or her own opinion on that one. If that is Ryans decision, so be it. He isn´t entitled to her though...
Ryan had no right to demand Stacey change her name. He had no right to make that a condition of the relationship. He had no right to call off the wedding on those grounds. I'm heartily glad he did, thus freeing Stacey from a relationship with an abuser; and as it seems obvious Ryan has a responsibility not to marry anyone ever, request we have that printed on his license.
I say it again: no-one has a right to deny others their rights. Women have rights. Repeat that to yourself every night before you go to sleep.
Ryan is not denying anyone their rights, because as big a moron as he is, Stacy is not forced to marry him. You on the other hand, seem to be under the impression Ryan should be *forced* to marry her and that he has "no right" to call the marriage off. Hmmm... seems like you're the one advocating we take away someone's rights.
No one is saying women don't have rights, least of all here, on Feministing. Calm down, kiddo.
I'm reading that commenters here feel Ryan had the perfect right to lay down the law to Stacey about her name.Is marriage being regarded as a gift bestowed on one person by another, or a commitment by two people to make a life together which calls for compromise and respect?
If he and Stacey had disagreed about having children, or where they would live, or what shifts they would work I'd perfectly understand his decision to issue ultimatums.. I'd still condemn him as an immature bully for his manner of ddoing so, but I'd see how it was a deal-breaker. But changing her name?
He's the one creating the problem. She hasn't put him in an untenable situation.
How is retaining her name having her cake and eating it too? Why on earth is he entitled to have her change her name? Why is accepting your partner's choice to keep her name an untenable position?
I'm also wondering: is marriage being regarded here as a gift bestowed on one person by another, or a commitment by two people to make a life together which calls for compromise and respect?
Oh,and canlord, please don't call me kiddo.
It isn't important to YOU but its important ot him. And that's all that matters. If we had a panel on whats a good reason to marry or break engagments or divorce suicides would be even more prominent in American culture because we'd all be miserable.
I find it SCARY you think you have a right to marry somone even if they don't want to marry you. Do you also feel you have rights to another person's body? Ugh.
Phenicks, I see in your newest comments that you feel disagreement over names is an irreconciliable difference, whereas I don't. It's good we have clarified the issue.
You might want to review that last comment to me, because it's both a demonstration of your inability to understand what I have been saying, and very rude. Not good form to imply another poster condones rape on a feminist forum.
It's not that we see it as an irreconcilable difference, it's that HE does. I don't think it should be, but if is *is to him* then he does have the right to call off the wedding on that basis.
I'm not understanding what you are saying. Are you advocating that Ryan should be *forced* to marry Stacy? Because that's sure what it sounds like.
Thanks for asking so politely. I am absolutely not suggesting Ryan should be forced to marry Stacey. I've been saying he should not be allowed to marry anyone, because he is a bully and a potential abuser. I have been very surprised that people feel he is entitled to make demands of her that would be unacceptable for a woman to make.
It's an irreconciliable difference to him : which suggests that he expects her to obey him. That's acceptable behaviour in many cultures/religions, but hasn't been equal partnerships between two people have been popular and legal for a really long time now.
As I've said, making marriage conditional on one partner obeying the other denies the rights of that partner.
Her name is hers: changing it is her choice to make, not his, and she has a right to keep her name. He's showing an incredible lack of respect to her by insisting she change it.
After she told him 'no', why didn't he just accept that? Why were his feelings more important than hers? How does it affect him if she keeps her name? What feeling is directing his behaviour when he insisted she change it?
Is that any clearer?
He shouldn't be allowed to marry anyone? Allowed by whom? Who do you propose we empower with the ability to decide who is and isn't worthy of being permitted to marry?
I didn't say rape- I said rights to another person's body. That's very general.
You've bene saying- repeatedly that he has no right to break off the engagement "just becasue she wont change her last name" but its a legal fact that he DOES that have right. Not only is it an irreconcilable difference (and if you read my post fully you'd see that) but its a right of freedom to not be forced to marry someone you DONT want to marry. Even if it was because you found out your betrothed had a biracial background or because he or she isn't a natural blonde or maybe somethign as silly as an ingrown toenail!!! It doesn't matter you don't HAVE to marry anyone no matter how badly they want to marry you, if you've made plans or even if its the wedding day you still have the option of saying "I don't" instead of "I do."
"How is retaining her name having her cake and eating it too?"
She expects to keep her name AND still marry a guy who considers keeping her name to be a deal-breaker.
"Why on earth is he entitled to have her change her name?"
He isn't. Nobody here says he is. Not even Ryan says he's entitled to that.
He understands that, because this is so important to him, and they are incompatible options, he gets to choose only ONE of them. If he were "entitled" to have her change her name, they would be married right now and she would be Mrs. Ryan. Obviously he _isn't_ entitled to it, and obviously he knows that, otherwise he would be the one insisting that the marriage go forward with her taking his name.
Keeping your name is a personal decision. There is either agreement between the two parties, or it is an irreconcilable difference. This isn't any different than any other personal decision; no more are you "entitled" to demand that your partner stop drinking, stop picking his nose, or start going to your church before you will marry him. If he's cool with that demand, great -- if not, maybe you are dating the wrong person.
Thing is, Ryan didn't say "sorry Stacey, I'm not marrying you because you won't change your name." That would have been him making a choice. He demanded Stacey change her name. "Change your name or else."
Just not on. He doesn't have the right to bully her.
I think that dropping the news to her on the radio was a bad idea. So was not talking about it earlier. But in itself, there is nothing wrong with refusing to marry someone who refuses to take your last name. Why are you trying to stigmatize and socially regulate his personal, private decisions that have little effect on anyone else? Locke would not be pleased.
If only Ryan had made a personal and private decision that had little effect on anyone else. Such as decide he would or would not change his name. But what he did was try to force his fiancee to do what he wanted.
I'd like to go on and explain why I'm stigmatising him, but I'm too excited by the news that women can now demand their husbands-to-be change their names or the marriage is off!
This is great news for women about to be married everywhere. Thanks UD Conservative! Locke will be pleased.
Um, well, I don't know if you're trying to be sarcastic or something... but yes, of course women can demand husbands can change their last name as a condition of marriage. And just like Stacy, those husbands have every right to say no and, you know, not marry them.
"But what he did was try to force his fiancee to do what he wanted."
He didn't force her to do anything. Did she have to marry him? Did she have to change her name? No, and no.
What he did was exercise HIS option to not agree to a situation that he found untenable. Just like she did. Granted, he was a complete asshole in the way that he went about it.
But both of them exercised their rights.
Some people apparently think that not getting to have your cake and eat it too constitutes being forced into something.
The fact that nobody mentioned the possibility of hyphenating -- including the talk show hosts -- was interesting. I can't help wondering how Ryan would have reacted if hyphenating had been put on the table? I suspect he would have blown it off, being a traditionalist; but it certainly would have exposed the assymmetry of his opinion (wanting her to do what he was not willing to do himself).
Stacy should dump his ass.
It's pretty clear a husband like that is not only a bully but a real creep and fraud artist. The least he could have done is to disclose this *waaaay* before they "spent all that money". She should be able to sue his ass in court for misleading her and making her go through all that time, money and aggravation. Period.
I'm agreeing with people who have said that he wasn't "required" to marry her. But yeah, he's a total asshole.
I don't know if I'd change, keep, or just hyphenate my name whenever I get married. I guess I've never given it much thought. But I definitely wouldn't put up with this kind of shit.
He may not be "required" to marry her but he wasted an enormous amount of her time not being honest, and made her spend money on something that she will now have to back out of if she wants to keep her spine. That should be actionable. So no, she shouldn't marry him but yes, he should pay up for the aggro.
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Stacey needs to dump the guy. Anyone who would blow that open ON THE AIR and humiliate her like that is an asshole!!!! If my guy did that to me, he woudln't be my guy after that.
As for the general name senario this is how I see it.
If one person feels more strongly than the other about one family name, that person should change her/his name, and not force the other to do so. The kids should take the family name, if they truly want a family name.
If both want a family name, but don't want to give up theirs, they should come up with a solution that works for them.
If both feel that a name does not make a family, then they should just keep their names.
My guy and I kept our names.
What a douche. DTMFA.
BitchPhD has some excellent thoughts on the name change. That post is not on her sidebar anymore, but to summarize: By changing your name (when you don't want to), before the marriage has even really started, you are accepting the role of the one who keeps the family together, and accepting that it should be you who keeps the family together.
(moving on to my own thoughts) Relationship and family work is truly unequal in het relationships. If you want equality in sending out Christmas cards, remembering birthdays and anniversarys (yours and others), keeping lines of communications open, resolving conflicts, then taking his name is not going to set the stage for that.
I like hearing other people's stories about douche bag SOs. Preps me ahead of time for when this behavior crops up in my own SO and gives me the fortitude to DTMFA.
Changing or not changing a name with marriage doesn't make a person more ir less feminist. For me, Names don't hold that much importance, so I changed it. For my sister in-law, she had published works so it made practical sense for her to retain her name. There were no fights about this, as there shouldn't be.
The thing about this guy is that he fights dirty. He can hold whatever opinions he wants, we all hae that right. But Calling a radio show? Hanging up on someone to ensure you had the last word? And not addressing he issue seriously until the eleventh hour? Holy crap, she should run because he is clearly an infant, and this is how he'll handle all future conflicts.
interesting discussion.
power to stacy who stood up for herself. i agree that if having a wife with his last name is a priority for ryan, he should not marry stacy. she should be free to find someone who accepts her values, and he should be free to find someone who accepts his.
i support people finding out what they are comfortable with and making their own decisions.
i thought about this issue for a long time before i was married. my husband thought it would be nice if we had the same last name but understood the decision was up to me, and ultimately didn't care that much - he would go along with whatever I chose. i think the fact that he was nice about it helped me to make the decision.
but honestly - this is what gave me the most peace. ultimately, i wanted a name that honors where i came from - in my case, this is my mother and father. my original last name had everything to do with my dad and nothing to do with my mom (other than the fact that she took his when she was married). my first name, however, is one they chose for me together. it's the only name i ever had that reflects my mother and father equally.
once i made that realization, i suddenly felt like whether i changed my last name or not - it didn't matter - i was keeping the name that mattered to me the most. my FIRST name. no one could take that away. it was this weird, obvious realization for me.
that thought combined with the fact that my husband seemed understanding about the whole thing made me much more willing to oblige and take his last name. i knew the gesture would be appreciated on his part - not expected, and i felt peace in that my new full name reflected everyone that was important to me - my parents, my in-laws, my husband, and myself.
i do understand why many women choose to keep their name - or to take their husbands for reasons different than my own - and i definitely respect that as well.
I think I saw a comment (which I can't find now, its a longish thread) by someone upset at people saying that Ryan has a "right" to demand that Stacey change her name or else he won't marry her.
Here's my response. It depends what you mean by a "right". Does he have a legal right to call off their wedding at the last minute for any reason whatsoever? Yes, of course he does. On the other hand, does he have a right to act like this without anyone who hears about it calling him an ass and not wanting to trust him ever again? No.
(It may be possible to insist that your fiancee change her name without being a total ass, although I'm not convinced that it is. But if it is possible, an important condition of that would be mentioning it MUCH earlier than this, and in private. Bringing it up a few weeks before the wedding on a radio show is so extremely disrespectful, humiliating, and controlling, that it wouldn't really matter what he was asking her to do, he'd still come off as an ass.)
That was me. I clarified for canlord2 back up there in the middle a little while ago. Sorry for repeating myself here.
They had the discussion about changing her name a long time ago, Stacey is reported as saying. Ryan couldn't accept that Stacey would not capitulate to him. Not compromise, capitulate;on an issue that mattered to her, and affected her, not him.
I understand that people get twitchy at the idea of denying rights and freedom to anyone, but I just can't come at the idea Ryan has the right to be an arsehole to Stacey. Why does he have the right to treat that her in that way? He has the freedom to, but not the right.
Ryan absolutely did the right thing. If he had herpes, it's the right thing to disclose it before the wedding. Same with cancer, or a genetic predisposition to some disorder or another. And if you suffer from terminal douchitude, it is very important to disclose it before the wedding.
Granted, he could have done it in a more gentle way, but given his aforementioned douchitude, perhaps this is the best he could manage.
On the flip side, it was nice of him to give his fiance a "do this or I'm gone!" ultimatum in such a way as to make it as easy a decision as possible.