open letter to feministing
Cosigned. I called out ableist and homophobic language on this post and no mods have done anything about the comments. A feminist space should not let this kind of language go unchallenged, and this space does, far too often.
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I understand where you are coming from, but I think the main problem with the language you cited is that a whole hell of a lot of people don't recognize those words as a pejorative against any particular group of people.
Lame. Yes, when you think about it, it does connote something other than an able bodied person. Its one of those words that I grew up on, and never really paused to think about its connotations until recently.
Pansy. Ok, this one is a lot trickier. For years, I used pansy as an alternative to pussy. When I think of pansies, I think of the flowers. This seemed to be an appropriate word to illustrate what I was going for: delicate, weak, etc. I was informed that it was also homophobic slang, but I have never heard it used in that sense. I think the vast majority of people who use pansy think they are saying "flower."
I agree that these are words that, once we know the meaning, we should try to stop using. However, use of these words does not expressly go against the Feministing commenting policy.
"Comments that contain personal attacks, hate speech or offensive language will be deleted. Victim blaming is never allowed. Commenters who derail threads (i.e. choose not to discuss the subject of the original post) will be warned and possibly deleted if the derailing continues. As editors, we use our discretion in determining which comments meet the criteria for deletion."
I'm not sure the mods here have ever deleted a comment for someone using the word "gay" as a pejorative in an otherwise not offensive post, but I sure as hell have seen commenters take the poster to task on it. I'm not sure it should be any different since a lot of times the issue here is ignorance, not hatred. Deleting the comment could leave the poster wondering why, whereas educating that poster about what the implications of these words are could bring us one step closer to phasing out their usage.
I'm not sure your discussion about the comment policy is relevant since there is concern over language used by Courtney and other editors and an overall atmosphere of ignorance about disability issues on this site.
Furthermore, if you're going to hold up the comment policy and say, "But it doesn't say anything about it!" doesn't that suggest that, again, this is an issue where the editors need to make some serious changes?
I'm not aware of the other issues referring to specific editors, but wasn't holding up the policy to show "nuh uh, they don't say not to say lame," I was holding up the policy to show that it was up to each individual editor.
I stand by the last paragraph in my post and disagree that deleting the comments altogether would be best. Is it possible for the editors to take just a word or phrase out of a post so as to create a safer space for everyone reading, while at the same time educating people as to why those words are hurtful?
Take the time to read the linked open letter, as well as the comments on it and the other open letters that other people have chimed in with. It's a pervasive problem, and one that is documented with specifics.
In my opinion, it doesn't matter whether a particular user is aware that a certain word is a pejorative or not when they use it. That lets everyone cry ignorance and get off the hook, and where do you draw the line? On other sites, I've seen people claim that they had no idea some pretty awful racial slurs were actually racial slurs (e.g. "porch monkey"). Does that mean they should be allowed in comments? And also, imo any pejorative referencing an oppressed group *is* hate speech.
I don't think that should get their otherwise not offensive comment deleted. Do you have an alternative?
Why are you prioritizing the offensive commenter over the people reading it who are being hurt by the language?
This language is incredibly offensive. It surprises me that a website that purports itself as a safe space allows such blatantly offensive comments to exist. Please, check your privilege.
Should I just keep c/p my last paraghaph in my reply to you? I've already explained why. Clearly we disagree.
"I'm not sure the mods here have ever deleted a comment for someone using the word "gay" as a pejorative in an otherwise not offensive post, but I sure as hell have seen commenters take the poster to task on it. I'm not sure it should be any different since a lot of times the issue here is ignorance, not hatred. Deleting the comment could leave the poster wondering why, whereas educating that poster about what the implications of these words are could bring us one step closer to phasing out their usage."
Oh yes, I forgot, it's the responsibility of persons with disabilities to educate you. How silly of me.
*I* don't need your education, and it is silly of you to assume that I do.
Isnt disability a ableist word? Bit of a hypocrite.
Uhm. "Disabilities" isn't an ableist word if used to describe a person with disability. Like how "gay" can be used to describe a homosexual person. Or "bitch" a female dog. It is the tone and context of use that determines the sensitivity of their use.
But doesnt it mean dis-abled?
Yes, it means being dis-abled from doing things that society expects people to be able to do. Saying that someone fits this description is not inherently ableist, especially not when you're using words that disabled people use to describe ourselves.
At one time little people described themselves as midgets. Anyways, just because they are considered by society to be disabled, does that really make it so? Arent they just non-traditioonally abled, not technically disabled. You havent convinced me disabled isnt ableist language.
So PWD don't get to decide which language we use to describe ourselves? Awesome.
I guess dialogue stops here. Way to make your point; you have none.
My point that people have a right to decide what language they use to describe themselves isn't a point? You're right: conversation does stop here, but not for the reasons you think.
Also, how do you know/not know my disabled status?
You're making a distinction that doesn't exist BTW. There's no such thing as "technically disabled" that differs from being socially disabled. Every disability is a disability because it makes participation in the (social) world as it is difficult. Think of an physical issue and imagine a society consisting entirely of people with that physical issue: it might be a difficult exercise for you, but when you managed it, you'd be imagining a society in which it wasn't a disability.
Actually "non-traditionally abled" is in some ways a far more ableist term as its use suggests that being disabled in any way is something to be ashamed of.
Then arent most people disabled since we arent perfect? Arent some people whove been traditionally thought of as disabled actually have special abilities than other people due to their non-traditionally abled status? For ex. auspergers.
your post made no sense
I recall seeing comments deleted with "Deleted for transphobic content", but this may have been a rare occurance.
Thats a good idea.
I just realized that the title at the top of your post was a link, and not the title restated as I originally thought it was. The blog post gave me a lot more insight into what you are saying, and I agree that there should probably be a change. I am still left wondering what other avenues are outside of just deleting an entire comment. Do you think there should be alternatives?
The mods sometimes delete entire comments, sometimes just the offensive words. I am ok with either approach; it was the general lack of any mod response to many problematic comments that troubled me.
Deleting the comment could leave the poster wondering why, whereas educating that poster about what the implications of these words are could bring us one step closer to phasing out their usage.
1. It is not the responsibility of people with disabilities/our allies to "educate" you about anti-ableist language. Think of it as a parallel to "Are you a woman? I DEMAND you teach me about feminism." Take some fucking initiative of your own.
2. Frequently, the person who points out the ableist language gets attacked for being too sensitive, too demanding, etc. The only "educating" that happens is that we learn, once again, that we are not in a safe space.
Please stop attacking me. I wasn't one of the people using the language, I was merely presenting a different viewpoint. I was not demanding a thing from any one, I was merely stating that I don't think these comments should be deleted because there may be those out there who WOULD be willing to educate even though, yes, it is not their responsibility.
I was very happy when someone pointed out to me that pansy was a homophobic slur and I immediately stopped using it. Would you prefer that no one had told me and I continued using it, unawares as to its hidden implications?
I think this is a 'if it's not about you, don't make it about you' thing, Kate. If you don't use offensive language, then Audentia's comment is clearly directed only to those who are. She is, however, pointing out that this 'education' that you think people ought to provide is prioritising the one making the offensive comment over the one who is harmed by it. Making those who are marginalised do the hard yards of educating people means that they are made to do the work that others refuse to do. Which is an important point, one which I think Feministing really needs to take seriously, and about which you, I think, do actually need to think more carefully. Who is required to do the work to make the world better? Why, precisely, is it always those without privilege? Do you think it's a coincidence? And in the end, the fact that so many people are asking feministing to change shows that people are concerned and willing to call out privilege, just like the person who pointed out that 'pansy' is a homophobic slur (and I'm not sure why thinking it's just picking on someone for being 'delicate' or 'weak' makes it okay? It's not just offensive because it's been used towards gay people, you know, but because of what it tries to say about them... that they are delicate and weak.)
Also, I'm not sure why we're talking about deletion of comments here. No one, as far as I can see, has actually stated that they think that comment deletion is the way to go (although, if they did, I could totally see their point). But to make it about comments is to miss that this is about a culture of ableism on feministing, manifested most recently in Courtney's use of 'invalid'. Let's not try to reduce this to 'people who don't know any better'. Feministing does. A blogosphere full of PWD and their allies has made sure of that.
It was a reply to my comment, so I think it was about me.
I messed up in only addressing the specific terms and slurs in my original post. I thought that bifemmefatale's whole post was this :
"Cosigned. I called out ableist and homophobic language on this post and no mods have done anything about the comments. A feminist space should not let this kind of language go unchallenged, and this space does, far too often."
I missed the off-site link that provided a lot more backstory to the issue.
"and I'm not sure why thinking it's just picking on someone for being 'delicate' or 'weak' makes it okay"
Well, that's just the difference between using a slur and using language to illustrate your point. To say "I was too much of pansy to go walk in the dark" has an entirely different connotation once you know the alternate meaning of the word pansy. Again, when I used it in my speech, I had no knowledge it referred to any group of people so I also wouldn't know that it was trying to suggest any group of people was "delicate" or "weak."
As far as the deletion of comments goes, you are right, I assumed that was the intended action because that's usually what happens when a post crosses a line. I see alternatives to this that may be better until Feministing addresses this in an FAQ section or something like that that can be easily linked to when someone asks "why was my comment deleted?"
I've heard the education argument before and I have to say I just fundamentally disagree. Of course, it is nobody's job to educate the ignorant, but no one should be shamed for wanting to educate either. I don't think we would be where we are today if the people who are knowledgeable on issues didn't educate--not individual people, all day every day, but education is also through things like organizations and lobbyists and protesters who bring awareness...or educate.
No one is wanting to shame anyone for educating, Kate, as far as I can see? In fact, this whole undertaking is about educating people. The shame should be because Feministing is refusing to acknowledge that a) they need education and b) that it is their responsibility to find where and how to get educated. And given that, if you read Meloukhia's actual post, you'll see that there are a variety of FWD raising their hands to be part of that process. The ball is, as it has always been, in Feministing's court. I suspect they'll be hanging on to it, though, and refusing to get educated. And that is shameful.
Oops, re-reading the OP tells me that bifemmefatale could be read as requesting deletion of offensive comments, although I don't think that's the only way to parse her suggestion. For example, if OPs took care to respond with a warning to each occurrence of ableism, perhaps we'd actually get the sense that this community doesn't think that it's acceptable.
I absolutely agree that there should be some change on Feministing, after reading Meloukhia's post and other posts linked off of that site that cited very clearly the examples of ableism. I wasn't doubting it.
My only worry was the the entire comment that contained the slur being deleted without explanation, a comment that could contribute to thread and the debate as a whole. I consider Feministing to be a very big beginner's site. I worry that well-intentioned people could feel silenced and turned away, and I think we need to bring as many people as possible into feminism.
This is not to say that *nothing* should be done about the posts. That's not ok. If the mods take the time to delete a comment and then e-mail the commenter to explain why, I think thats a good solution, or at least a start. If there is a FAQ section with words and slurs that will get your comment deleted, no exceptions, I think thats a good idea. Or even just deleting the offending word from a person's comment is a good idea as well. My worry was that the comment would be deleted, no explanation as to why. Obviously not all comments need an explanation, but I do think there are genuinely thoughtful commenters that may simply be young, dismissive, or uninformed and they should not be banned from discussion.
Yeah, well, as far as I can see, no one was ever asking for what you seemed to think they were. They were asking that PWD not be the ones doing the hard yards, but that the community itself take up the responsibility. If that's what you thought all along, then perhaps you should think about why you assumed people were aiming to 'silence', rather than asking for a community that might support and sustain them, partly through educating its readers in why ableism is such a problem...
Wait, what? I can't follow your reply.
No one ever asked for deletion of comments with no warning/comment policy/discussion/whatever, as you seemed to assume. They asked that the ableist culture be addressed. The equation of the two seems to be pretty problematic.
From the OP : "I called out ableist and homophobic language on this post and no mods have done anything about the comments."
Usually, comments are deleted when they are reported to mods and the mods agree that something is wrong with them. Its not really a leap to think thats a possibility. I don't think its problematic to address a worry with what "doing something" about a comment means.
Not all posts that are reported are deleted. A lot of the time actually the moderators come onto the comments to let commenters know if things have gotten out of hand or that something is unacceptable. Actually, lately I've seen that A LOT more than any deletion unless it's been an obvious troll.
I think you are confusing disagreeing and attacking.
I think the best way to learn about social issues is to talk to people with life experience. I've never met anyone who was eager to learn about an issue say "I DEMAND you teach me about [issue x]." I've never even heard of an actual situation like that. When I do meet people who want to broaden their horizons with my perspective, I embrace opportunities to educate people on issues that on which I have a decent level of understanding (namely, for me, feminism and gay rights issues).
How are we supposed to further our cause by shaming people who are ignorant, especially those actively seeking to learn more?
People can google "disability feminism" and find a lot of sites they can read and learn on.
And yes, I have been demanded of to teach people disability-related issues. It happened just this week. It happened when I last asked an organisation to include disability in mind when designing their website. It happened the last time I talked to my MP. If I want something to change, it's demanded I do their work for them - they apparently cannot google anything, and no one ever thinks I should get paid.
Somehow I managed to find a way to adapt to society as an Aspie even though everyone kept telling me that I should just know these things already. I'm sure that the majority neurotypical commenters here can use their superior social skills and empathy to find a way to treat PWD decently without us holding their hands and walking them through it. Or, you know, as Trouble said they could Google.
Shame is actually a pretty powerful motivator. Fear of it is what keeps me reading in special collections for hours every day lest I miss something highly relevant to my thesis. And even though shame has been used as a tool of repression, I'm actually pretty much OK with using it to change the minds of the privileged.
I've had it demanded of me to teach people all kinds of things because of my status as an adoptee, a person of color, a pansexual and a disabled person.
Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening. I should have to be someone else's educational experience.
*Shouldn't
I think the best way to learn about social issues is to talk to people with life experience.
There is a difference between (a) PWD choosing to share our experiences, and others proactively seeking out those stories and (b) other people expecting us to tell them when they have messed up, and not doing anything to prevent or limit the mistakes. In the first one, PWD do the talking/writing, and others pay attention. In the second, it's the temporarily-able bodied people who are "talking," and PWD are expected to listen/read and only interject when "necessary."
P.S Exactly how, if I used these words, would I have been able to "take some fucking initiative of your own" (nice!) if I wasn't even aware the word I was using was offensive? How could I have initiative about that?
This is kinda the point, Kate. You think that your lack of awareness is just the way it is. It's actually a function of privilege: it's a function of not being marginalised by ableist languge all day every day; it's a function of not needing to be aware of the way that violence towards you is sustained by the apparent 'irrelevance' of people's casual marginalisation of you. This is the point; always the point. People can be generous, and point out your privilege to you. But in the end, it is generous; it's not their responsibility; they're making up for your unwillingness to consider how other people, who are different from you, might experience the world. How they might experience what you are saying...
Ok. But seriously and not to snark, but how would one take initiative on this? How would one discover that a particular word they use, having no evidence or thought that it is offensive to any group of people has some alternate implication? Are we all meant to look up every adjective we use to make sure it is not rooted in derogatory speech?
It seems like a real Catch-22 here. To get offended (and rightly so) when someone ignorantly uses a word that is marginalizing, but then to argue that no one should tell them that they are ignorant to the word's meaning because that's not their responsibility (true.) Where is the solution?
No one is arguing that no one should tell someone when they're being ignorant. Not a single person. They're saying that this is not the responsibility of those who are marginalised. Which also means that when someone does get called out, their reaction shouldn't be the defensive crap we see all the time, but an acknowledgment that they hadn't thought carefully enough about it.
That said, if, say, Courtney had thought about how a PWD might read her comment about 'being treated like an invalid isn't feminist' (paraphrased, sorry!), she would have known. And the vast, vast majority of cases of offensive language would be avoided if people thought about how those they're referring to (y'know, those 'cripples', those 'invalids', those 'blind' people, those 'lame' people) might feel about that reference (one which, in this case, suggests that one is either a feminist or an invalid, and that the latter is a Very Bad Thing that no woman would want to be). I actually don't think that's so very hard a habit to cultivate, like I said above: consider how someone who experiences the world differently from you could be made to feel.
We're coming at this from two different angles and I think I see where the confusion started. Obviously, if one takes the time to think about it, the words lame, cripple, etc are offensive to someone out there in the world and should not be used, whether they realize that ableism as a term exists or not.
When I was younger, I used to use "lame" until I realized its connotations--which should have been obvious in retrospect, given my family--and then stopped using it.
I wrongly brought the pansy discussion into this--a related topic for sure, but not the issue at hand--because that and lame were the two comments bifemmefatale objected to when she linked to the other Feministing post. I've been arguing, in my head, based on that example. So when I asked "how could I take initiative on that?" I was asking "How could I have taken the initiative to find out that pansy was an offensive word when I thought I was just saying a type of flower?" So I apologize for the confusion there.
There is a marked difference between the terms. While both cripple and pansy don't seem offensive to the average person, one is much more clearly offensive if given thought. While I thought pansy described flowers, I would also knew that cripple described someone with a differently abled body, and if I cared to give it thought, should also know that as a term it would be offensive to some people. And yes, I obviously see where I would be able to take initiative once I had had that thought. Just type "crippled" into my browser, and I could find out.
I guess my point is that 'having that thought' is, in the end, your own responsibility, not that of those with disabilities (or whatever other marginalised group). Put it this way: if you're using something to be insulting, or negative, think about why it is insulting or negative (or, for example, google 'pansy' to find out why that particular flower got picked out for its negative qualities, and hey presto! you'll find a whole terrifyingly homophobic history). Is it because it's associated with a group of people who have been routinely derogated within our culture? If so, you need to take responsibility for the fact that you are perpetuating their derogation, and that if you continue using it, you're saying that your habits of speech and thought are more important than the harm done them. When people say 'check your privilege', that's often what they're asking you to think about. But, again, not their responsibility; they're doing you a favour.
"Put it this way: if you're using something to be insulting, or negative, think about why it is insulting or negative (or, for example, google 'pansy' to find out why that particular flower got picked out for its negative qualities, and hey presto! you'll find a whole terrifyingly homophobic history"
Do you google every insulting word you use?
I thought pansy was insulting because it was a flower. That's where my thoughts on it ended and I don't think its necessarily privileged that my thoughts ended there.
I did google it, and could find no reason why that particular flower got picked for its "negative qualities."
"If so, you need to take responsibility for the fact that you are perpetuating their derogation, and that if you continue using it, you're saying that your habits of speech and thought are more important than the harm done them. When people say 'check your privilege', that's often what they're asking you to think about. But, again, not their responsibility; they're doing you a favour."
Again, I no longer use these words. I stopped using these words once I realized--some on my own and some by being told--that they were offensive. Why are you still arguing this point with me?
Because you asked how one would take responsibility for one's own potentially offensive language. I'm not arguing anything with you. I'm answering your question, and trying to show that the 'I didn't know it was offensive' is a privileged position to hold, and one which people can educate themselves about.
I think I agree with nearly everything you've said, and we've just gotten tripped up somewhere in this thread because I'm not really sure what you're referring to know. Thanks, though.
Kate: "taking initiative" in this context means "reading disability rights blogs/books/etc and otherwise educating yourself so that you are aware of these issues rather than waiting for PWD (or any other marginalized group) to come to you once you've already done something offensive." You see, the point of educating yourself isn't simply to make yourself look good and to avoid getting your comments deleted/getting taken to task for your comments. The idea is that you should care. You seem to be thinking that the only reason that one would educate themselves, and thus know about offensive language, is the former. If that's a person's attitude, then yeah, they aren't going to know any better. But that's still their choice.
Umm...Cara.
You are made of Rocketsauce.
I'm just sayin'.
We love you.
Yeah, I understand what you mean. Please see this reply above http://community.feministing.com/2009/10/open-letter-to-feministing-1.html#comment-304577
for where my confusion with initiative was.
No wonder people fail at intersectionality if they can't draw parallels between their own experiences and the experiences of others.
I think that a general consensus of feminism is that language matters. 'Cause, how many of us like it when people say: "Stop being such a girl!" "You're a pussy!" "I got raped by that exam." WORDS MATTER. They have meaning behind them, and when that meaning is offensive to women, we shut it down. We don't hold hands and coo and make men feel better about their misogynistic language. When the word "woman" is used as an insult to police men's behavior, we care. And we get pissed.
So why is it such a mindfuck to people that using "lame" instead of "girl" as an insult is nitpicking and not an issue that matters? This is like, elementary school logic here.
Aw crap, that was NOT supposed to be a reply, that was supposed to be a general comment. I thought it just got lost when I didn't see it show up at the bottom of the page. Sorry for that.
No problem. I completely agree. I'm really happy with what this discussion has brought to light. Even though I don't use the terms in question, I've never chided anyone for their use either and I'll have to start. Its hypocritical to call out "pussy" or "girl" but not "lame" or "invalid."
agreed. i read the thread myself. and "pansy" immediately jumped out at me but "lame" did not. after reading the thread, i realized that "lame" was, indeed, ableist.
how could we modify the comment so that people could learn from the thread without people being offended by it?
or are we more concerned with causing offense than with educating? it's difficult to balance both, and i am interested in how this could be done.
but i agree with kate that scaring away newcomers because they are afraid they might accidentally use sexist/anti-transgender/ableist/racist language when saying phrases that they consider wholly innocuous, such as, say, "femme fatale", is not a good idea.
But it is also the responsibility of those who have knowledge to pass it on. Quite frankly, the "it's not my responsibility to teach anyone ..." is a shitty one. If we want allies, the very least we could do is reach out to allies.
We can't expect people who care about issues we care about if all we're going to do is tell them to fuck off and read a book.
Marc, I'm not sure if you've clicked through to the open letter, but comments 112 and 113 on that thread address this idea.
To me that *is* where allies (and mods) should step in. Those of us who care and are not dealing with oppression on that basis every day probably have more energy to educate the clueless.
Oh, and there is no need for the hostile language. We're not your enemies. Your enemies are out there. This is a community of like-minded people, who are at different levels of feminism.
Save your hostility for others, not your allies and fellow feminists.
I'm pretty sure that the point of this entire thread is that there are a whole lot of feminists who don't feel that this space supports them at all, and in fact invisibilises and silences them. Why exactly should they not be hostile?
Because you dont communicate when being hostile and paranoid, thats why. The point is to educate, convince and give a solid foundation for your arguments, not just rattle and rant. Why even read your post if thats the case? Dont people deserve a intellectually stable introduction to your argument? I've done it with asshole misogynists and racists (some whom were really just ahate filled A-holes, others were just insecure and ignorant but more pliable). The audience thats here isnt openly hateful or hostile and that distortion will impede you from lucidly communicating your ideas.
Wow, that's approximately as condescending as they come. In actual fact, I haven't been hostile on this thread. I've snarked a few times, to try to make the point of how unreasonable my interlocutor's position is. (Also, for the record: dialectic: I do not think that word means what you think it means). But you want the point? Here it is spelled out for you:
PWD are discriminated against all the time. The world is made inaccessible to many of them, whether through steps or solely visual information, solely audio information, or information presented in too complex a way. They are more often unemployed. They are more often victims of abuse. They are treated as if they lacked intelligence. Their lives are inevitably assumed to be tragic, and that tragic-ness is always characterised as the result of their bodies, rather than of a world which is built to disable those whose bodies don't fit some constructed norm.
Weirdly enough, many similar issues are faced by able bodied women. And weirdly enough, many people with disabilities are women. Just as women of colour critiqued white feminism for its racial exclusivity, women with disabilities are critiquing able bodied feminists, who, right here on this blog, have excluded the specific difficulties that women with disabilities face. They are also critiquing the tendency of this blog to simply permit ableist language, which excludes this group of women, and reiterates the idea that being like them - living with a disability - is tragic and bad; so tragic and bad, in fact, that using their various disabilities as an insult is perfectly fine, in much the same way (as has been pointed out on this thread) that men have used women as a source of insults for other men.
This has been pointed out to Feministing editors many times. This has been pointed out to commenters many times. For you to behave as if this is the most ludicrous thing you've ever heard is massively disingenuous. It's also massively disingenuous for you to act as if all the discussion of this issue so far as been 'irrational' and 'hysterical' and 'idiotic'. Those are the same terms that men use to silence women about their experiences, and you are wielding them now against women because their experience isn't your experience? Give me a fucking break.
As I said to Marc, please look up "tone argument". Oppressed people have a right to be angry when privilege is being waved around or hurtful language is being used. you do not have a right to be safe from others' anger when you are hurtful.
"Paranoid"?? For real? Fuck.
The "paranoid" trope is as old as the hills. Every marginalized group has been told at some point that they're just being paranoid about their oppression and mistreatment. This is a classic silencing mechanism. Let's leave paranoia talk behind, please.
Please look up "tone argument". You're hitting a lot of bingo squares.
Well, if we'd just stop complaining and cater to our oppressors, everything would be so much better, don't you see?
Sometimes I think commenters get hung up on nuances and lose sight of the bigger issues. Maybe if there was less nitpicking about some of the more trivial things we could have better discourse about what really matters.
*sits back and waits for flaming*
In other words,
Trivial things: things that don't personally affect Liza.
Things that matter: things that do.
If you KNOW you're going to get flamed for something, you might want to think through why you're still insisting on posting it.
Because I insist on having an opinion even if it isn't popular.
Offering insight is one thing. Derailing an entire thread because someone accidentally called something "lame" in a way that wasn't intended to be hateful doesn't solve anything other than derailing a thread.
Feministing comments have been careening toward obsessively nitpicky lately.
The issues we fail to address because people are stuck on one minute detail affect all of us.
'Not intended to be hateful'. Ah yes, the old 'my intention matters more than your oppression' argument. Nice. Perhaps instead of blaming those calling out the offensive language for the derail, you could hold those using it responsible, given that they are the ones perpetuating injustice in this casual way.
The only time it turns into a derail is when the commenter that has used the ableist language refuses to apologize or decides to start a debate about how it's okay to use the word. That makes it not a safe space and that just pisses me off to be honest. If the poster just says sorry and moves on, problem done. I know I've said things on accident before that people have been offended about. When it was pointed out to me I apologized instead of acting like a jerk and we were able to move on.
Oh. My. God. You deserve a flaming. The experiences of people with disabilities are 'trivial', are they? Their preclusion from feminist spaces is 'nitpicking'? And, pray tell, what exactly are these things that 'really matter,' which these marginalised groups are preventing you from having 'better discourse' on?
Wow. Yeah, you've just shown precisely how big an issue ableism is in the feministing community. Congrats.
Maybe we should not use 'flaming' either...
Just in case.
Damn it, you made me chuckle.
Because I was reading this seriously.
lol
I'd rather discuss actual disability related issues than let a single misused word unhinge an entire discussion. If that makes me ableist, so be it.
If you actually read the letter, you'd find that coverage of issues around disability is part of what is being called for. But I'm not sure how, exactly, a website becomes a safe space for a marginalised group by allowing that marginalisation to continue through 'semantics'. If you want PWD to have a voice on Feministing, you have to make it safe.
I don't like equating different forms of privilege, but would you really expect women to participate in a website where they're called sluts and whore and threatened with sexual violence? Or where those terms are go-to terms for insults? Where someone would say, like alixana pointed out, 'you're such a girl' or 'you pussy' as an insult? That's not going to be a safe space for women. And this isn't a safe space for PWD
Liza, PWD are saying this is a real issue that affects our lives and that the language used here actually keeps feminists with disabilities from wanting to access what is a major feminist blog.
And hearing "lame" and other similar terms constantly being used as a pejorative isn't an actual disability issue? Wow. How kind of you to determine for the disabled what their issues are. Are you also going to determine for all the other oppressed groups what their actual issues are? I await your privileged ramblings with baited breath.
You'll see no flaming from me. We can have semantic wars if we wish. Being outraged is easy but building consensus---ay, there's the rub. This protest is built upon good intentions, but it really makes me sad how much energy we devote to finding fault when we would be better served by finding common purpose.
I have seen evidence of this over and over and over again, making me wonder if sustained unity is something we are simply incapable of attaining.
Unity based on the silencing of marginalised groups, and the perpetuation of their marginalisation? Yeah, we're incapable of attaining it. And thank fuck!
The women involved in this protest have been attempting to find common purpose with Feminstining Staffers for *over a year*. Our emails have gone ignored. Our reports of abuse have never been acted on. We've been attacked in comment sections. How long before we're allowed to get angry and demand better from a Feminist Site that insists it's for all women?
I too share your concern over whether unity can be sustained, but I think you're blaming the wrong side here. When relatively privileged people within a movement consistently put down the more marginalized people and their concerns, who's responsible for the lack of unity that follows when the marginalized people get fed up?
Where have I heard this argument before...? Oh, that's right, Why are you concentrating on x when y is so much more important?
For Christ's sake, and I don't even believe in Dude, can we please make our own arguments rather than throwing out some canned response from Feminism 101? Really! Jesus.
This might be an indicator, Marc, that these are very very old, tired arguments that people are weary of repeating the same lines about, and wish that people would get on with actually changing their behaviours already.
If you're getting canned responses from feminism 101, that means you're not actually up to speed on feminism 101. It gets old fast for the rest of us to repeat the same things over and over again to clueless n00bs who think they're just come up with a brilliant new debate tactic that is neither new nor brilliant.
Kinda like how people complain about feministing commenters using "lame" but fail to take any initiative to use the community blog to write any posts on accessiblity issues?
Honestly, if people have the energy to complain about the staff using unseemly language, then they should have the energy and passion to write up a community blog post how NYC hardly has any fucking elevators in the subways.
I'm so sick of people saying that it's not their job to be an educator...it's like, why are you even a feminist? It's called activism for a reason!
Wait, in order to be an activist I have to spend my time on educating feministing commentators? Because none of you can google "disability feminism blog" and read our posts yourselves?
As much as I would love to spend more time unpacking the various issues in disability and activism, including who has the energy to do it, I don't live in New York, so it's hard to do activism work there.
No, Trouble, I've got this one.
Here you go, Liza. And everyone else who wants us to do the fucking work for you. This is long overdue. Here you go.
Because a disabled feminist with a blog is just the same as one who is unable to write and hasn't the economic autonomy to be on the Internet. Right.
No, but a basic Google search is a pretty easy thing to do for people that are already here and crying that they couldn't possibly know something. And your flippant comment shows just how seriously anyone here wants to take us. I forget, why don't I feel safe commenting here anymore?
I confess. I'm happy I'm not the only one. Personally, I dont feel safe here either. I type this sitting behind my barbed wire bunker with a machine gun armed and ready to shoot at any of the people that could pop out of the screen at any moment. I dont feel safe until I've shut my door, locked it, swicthed the trip alarm so that a booby trap will go off in the case of any invaders that will barge through when Im typing, put on my gun vest, safety goggles and couched down inside my bunker/fox hole....only then will I hit the laptop's 'on' button. Then I arm my machine gun and go to this web site.
((whu, whats that!!!Aghh!))
Please Gopher, that's a really hurtful response. I've seen you be really constructive and thoughtful in other places on this blog, but your responses on this thread have gotten increasingly disrespectful.
Obviously nobody's talking about feeling physically threatened by this website. The question is whether the site is welcoming and inclusive, and whether people who experience different types of oppression are going to find something different here, or just a reflection of the oppressions they face every day.
A rape survivor wouldn't feel safe if the site had victim-blaming all the time. A Jewish person wouldn't feel safe if the site promoted hate speech and stereotypes about Jews. A queer person won't feel safe if the site is heteronormative and hateful.
So when disabled folks
1. Tell us that they don't feel safe here,
2. Tell us why they don't feel safe here,
3. Tell us what we can do to make them feel safe here,
4. Stick around and listen to our ignorance, our harsh responses, our sarcasm, and our minimalizing of their oppression...
then it is our job to listen and educate ourselves and change our behavior. Suck it up, check your privilege, and be grateful you've had the opportunity to learn something here.
Jesus Gopher. Grow up already.
Oh, I see.
Well, since Feministing is only concerned about the experiences of women who do not have access to the internet or do not have any resources, I completely concede your point. It was foolish of us to think that our concerns were on par with those of people who were so much less advantaged than we were.
Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.
You can have a discussion without being sarcastic. This is what other posters mean when they talk about being irrational. You can make your points, and it's important that you do, but when you get an attitude, we're no longer discussing, we're merely talking at each other.
If you want a real discussion, then start acting and writing in civil ways.
Just because this is a feminist site, and we're both feminists, does not mean that I have to put up with your attitude and treat you with kid gloves.
If you want to have a real discussion, try listening to the people talking to you.
You're not talking at anyone - you're talking at us.
In other words "I'm so privileged I can't possibly bring myself to give a fuck about your issues. And I'm proud of it."
I am SOOOO SICK of all the ableist language I see on this website. It is by far my favorite blog but I feel like ever day I have to make a comment that says something along the lines of "Please DO NOT use the word lame." The moderators don't step in with that stuff enough, only a few other posters, so I don't think the message gets across that it's not okay to say those things. And then in some posts the OP uses the words as well.
And then the last time I tried to talk to someone about the use of the word lame on here I was frickin debated about how it actually wasn't bad and they thought I was wrong. WTF? It's exhausting.
Perhaps no one should ever write anything ever, in the slightest of negative tones, because someone somewhere is going to get offended and pull out a bunch of semantics, right?
It's conservative right-wingers who are supposed to use the, "we are too PC" card when confronted with oppressed people, NOT THE FUCKING FEMINISTS. Really, this is infuriating.
Perhaps this and other examples of feminists gone awry can serve to demonstrate that the infamous "conservative right-wingers" are not always the evil perpetrators, as much as we'd like to keep insisting they are.
Or perhaps you could buy a dictionary and expand your vocabulary so that you could write in strongly negative terms without further marginalizing an already marginalized group. I realize that one is slightly more difficult than the other...
I used the word lame until I was told the connotations of it. I hadn't thought about it that way before and I haven't ever used it since. If you're told the language you're using is offensive you should straight away stop using that language and apologise for the hurt caused by you using it.
So tell me now, what should I do, if someone for some bizarre reason told me that they were offended by evereday language, which includes words like "walk", "sit" or "run"? Should I stop using these words and try to invent some academically more sophisticated and more moronic words in place of them?
If those words were backed up by a history and a present of injustice, abuse and oppression, then yeah. If not, then no. It's not that hard, really!
When or where did the person whom I was replying to mention anything about injustice, abuse and oppression? Didn't he/she present being considered offensive as a sufficient condition for demanding others to stop using a particular kind of language?
What about words like: dumb? crazy? insane? stupid? They all have ableistic connotations. I use them without even thinking about it, and I never would know why it was offensive unless someone pointed it out. Then again, for many people, these words have transcended their original denotations, and have aquired new connotations. Language evolves, after all, and it doesn't evolve uniformly.
I agree that there should me more discussions regarding the bias/prejudice that our everyday language can convey. Its an issue that is too often ignored. But I'd like to see healthy discussion and debate, not censorship and condemnation. Still, Comrade Kevin said it well--consensus is elusive.
Hypatia, did you read the links in this post, as well as the links in the post this links too? We *are* talking about crazy and insane. We *are* talking about dumb. We are talking about finding ways of saying things that don't equate "disability = bad" in one's everyday language. We are women with disabilities, and we don't like being the go-to insult or express of disdain.
Crazy and insane are wrong to use as an insult. I am disabled by mental illness, but that doesn't mean I'm illogical or violent.
"Pussy" has acquired new connotations too. I'm still not OK with it.
I too am sick of seeing ableist language go about unchecked. I propose Feministing adopt a policy similar to that of Hoyden About Town. When offensive language is used, the comment is edited and either the offensive part is "disemvowelled" with a mod note added, or the offensive part of the comment is replaced with [use of ableist/sexist/whatever language removed ~ ModName].
Great model, PharaohKatt!
Ok, not gonna lie, when I first read this post I was feeling skeptical and defensive. But having read the comments here, I'm changing my tune.
As able-bodied persons, some of us may not realize the impact of a term like "lame". But it is really no different than other language issues which have been discussed on this site (like the use of "rape" as a term for beating someone at something, etc).
As members of a community, we need to take it very seriously when our fellows tell us that they are offended or upset by something. We need to check our impulse to get angry and defensive and seriously consider what we're being told. We also need to be prepared to forgive each other our fuck-ups, 'cause they're gonna happen.
As much as I do appreciate your support - and trust me, I do - this is more than "fuck ups",and it's been going on for years.
Please consider reading the post that bifemmefatal has linked to, and the posts linked to there. We've been asking Feministing to take our concerns as women/feminists with disabilities for years without result. It's not just problematic language, it's framing the way women with disabilities are treated as a problem for currently non-disabled people. It's barely acknowledging we exist at all. It's acting like posts pointing to dance and acting by women with disabilities is just like taking on issues that affect women with disabilities.
There is more than language at stake here, even though language is what set this off.
Agreed. Please, everyone, read up on this issue. It's really important. The link at the very top is a good place to start.
I did read the linked post - but not closely enough, and I apologize if it sounds like I am simplifying or belittling this issue. I can't pretend that I put anything more into that post than "hey guys, let's take this seriously and work together, k?"
I need to do more research on this before I can contribute meaningfully. I just wanted to acknowledge that this is an issue we as a community need to address and to voice my support.
I'm actually really confused as to why people with disabilities are offended with certain words such a crazy, stupid, dumb, lame etc.
My friend who is in a wheelchair is not lame in my eyes. She is a person who has [insert issue here].
My friend who has clinical depression isn't crazy....she has clinical depression.
But when my brother decides to drive up a snow bank and fucking flip his car, I call him crazy, stupid and dumb cuz that's what it is.
And my bro is fully able-bodied.
And honestly, that's the language that we have at our disposal to describe what his actions.
Now, if I said to my brother, "What are you? A fucking parapelegic!" Then, I'd have some issue with that.
I am actually in the same boat you are. I can understand lame to an extent and maybe even dumb, but stupid and invalid? Especially invalid because I get comments like that one like, papers or tests in my classes (i.e. that point you made was an invalid one, please redo) or whatever. I definitely do not want to be labeled as 'ableist' but some of these words I have never heard of having a bad connotation up until now.
In response to you and Athenia - so YOU don't understand it, and YOU'VE never heard of it before...but there's a whole world out there where this stuff exists independently of your knowing it or not. So now that you're aware of it, you can do one of two things: you can do what you seem to be doing here and disagreeing with the very oppressed people who say that this is offensive language, or you can go click on some blogs linked through the OP's open letter link and read what people have already written and try to understand it.
(And this relates to Athenia's above statement about hating when activists complain that we aren't here to educate you - there's a huuuuge difference between choosing to speak about your experiences and being told to speak on demand by people who have privilege that you don't.)
there are two different words, same spelling, pronounced different. 'your argument is invalid' vs. 'treated like an invalid'
This has always seemed to me like people being upset about using the word "gay" to mean "happy." That was the original meaning of the word, and it was then changed to men "homosexual" and then to also mean "bad" -- so using it to mean "bad" is always offensive, and using it to mean "homosexual" is sometimes an insult but often just a description or a positive label, but using it in its original sense as "happy" and "playful" (without the connotation of "homosexual") still seems perfectly reasonable and unoffensive to me.
Likewise, "invalid" to mean a person with an illness or disability probably came from the original meaning of "invalid" to mean not correct, not true, not logical, not sound. So using it to mean "a person with an illness or disability" is insulting, but not the reverse -- I don't think it's comparing an argument to a person with an illness by calling it "invalid."
If I am missing something here, please please point me in the right direction so I can educate myself. But I've tried to research this particular case, and I can't seem to find a reason why the word "invalid" should't be ok to use(emphasis on the second syllable) to describe a false statement or worthless argument. Apologies if I am displaying my ignorance here, and I'd appreciate it if someone could point out of I'm missing something or at least link me in the right direction...
I agree.
For the record, I don't think anyone disagrees with the usage of 'invalid' which refers to, say, an argument being not valid. That's really not what's at stake here though.
Sorry, Lily, they clearly are two different words. "Invalid" meaning not on point is an adjective. "Invalid" meaning a sickly person is a noun. No one is saying we shouldn't use the adjective, it's the noun that is objectionable.
Ok, cool, thanks for clarifying. I thought from some of the posts here that people were saying we shouldn't use "invalid" as an adjective to mean "incorrect," and I was confused and trying to educate myself about that. Thanks to those who have replied.
Why don't you just go all the way and call your brother the R word when he does something fucked up? I mean, if you are going to use people's medical conditions an insults, why go half way? Oh, right, because we know it's not retarded people's fault they are the way they are, unlike those darn crazies.
My currently non-disabled friends have all attempted to eliminate ablist language in their speech. I can't understand why you would have difficulties with it, since they have totally a different opinion from you.
Like women who are currently non-disabled, women with disabilities have differences of opinions on things. We're individuals who do not all agree on everything. "My disabled friend" isn't really a counter argument when people, right here in this post, are saying "Don't do this, it's alienating and excluding language."
As well - this is not the only issue. There are many issues that we have brought up repeatedly, and have been ignored by the staff at Feministing.
Thank you to bifemmefatale and co-signers for writing that letter. Like one of the earlier commenters, I have also used words like 'dumb' and 'stupid' in everyday speech without really thinking about it. That ends today and I'll make sure I pull everyone in my life up on it too.
Thank you, but please note that it's not the entire issue - the problem is more with general discrimination, rather than just the offensive words.
Noted, I get it.
I can't really express how much I don't want to be involved in this conversation but I think a few things really need to be noted here:
1. It's funny to me that some of the commenters here are saying that lack of education is not an excuse for using ableist language because they're the same users I've seen defending derogatory statements toward sex workers and transgendered individuals. So ableist language is absolutely 100% unacceptable even when used by someone who is unaware of the connotations but it's okay to have a free for all on sex workers? Give me a break.
2. Just a few days ago, Ariel posted about Sins Invalid on the main site and none of the supposed defenders of the disabled so much as commented on it. So here's a case where the Feministing staff posted an interesting article about looking at disability in a different way but you don't have time to show any interest in it because you're too busy criticizing them for not policing the comments well enough.
For point one, I definitely agree to an extent (which I touched on with my comment, but unfortunately forgot to include sex workers! apologies).
For the second, that's the first post about disabled people and rethinking disability I've ever seen here. It doesn't excuse the long line of ableism, but it shows an awareness to improve. Not a total plus, but definitely a slight mitigation.
Gular, I really hate to go into this with you in a public space but since I have no way to tell you this privately I'm just going to go for it.
I've been gone from Feministing for a few weeks now. Specifically since Marc's post on prostitution. That's because another Feministing user who disagreed with my position in those comments took the time to find two of my email addresses and quite a bit of my personal information so that they could send me threatening and derogatory messages saying that I was a cunt and that I couldn't call that remark sexist because they were just trying to enlighten me to my idiocy. All of which has nothing to do with you except for the at the end of the first message (there were about ten over a period of two weeks) it said, "PS: Marc and Gular agree with me." Now, I understand that you probably had nothing to do with that and do happen to agree with your position on this post but I think you should know that while you've probably long forgotten that post and the disagreement we had in it it's been haunting me for weeks. I don't want to drag up an old argument and I didn't put any of this in a community post "outing" the harasser because I've seen other users do the same thing and be called passive aggressive. I hope you take this in the spirit it's meant. Sometimes we all contribute to making Feministing less "safe" with out even realizing it.
"That's because another Feministing user who disagreed with my position in those comments took the time to find two of my email addresses and quite a bit of my personal information so that they could send me threatening and derogatory messages saying that I was a cunt and that I couldn't call that remark sexist because they were just trying to enlighten me to my idiocy"
How sad. I always notice when some of the frequent posters leave. Like for example, whatever happend to prairielily?
BECAUSE WE DON'T FEEL SAFE COMMENTING HERE.
For God's sake, people.
I've never felt safe commenting here. Because of shit like this whole fucking thread.
Never. Not even when I didn't even identify as disabled. When I was just a young white feminist getting into this whole reading-feminist-blogs thing and liking it. I STILL FELT UNCOMFORTABLE AND UNWELCOME IN COMMENTS HERE.
Hey, Jessica, Vanessa, Samhita, Ann, Miriam and Courtney. It would be very nice if you would engage constructively with us, like, NOW, because this is starting to get ugly and most of us do not have the *physical energy* to handle all of this.
THIS is the problem we are complaining about. THIS WHOLE THREAD. All of this. This is what makes us uncomfortable here. Like we aren't welcome as feminists. Because of things like this thread.
Please, would you PLEASE talk to us constructively?
amandaw
And here is where I am so fucking done with this site. Not because of the editors but because of the commenters. I do not feel safe here. I do not like what is going on here but obviously for different reasons than you. The Sins Invalid post was constructive. I point out that I have issues with the argument you're making and you flame me. Nice.
So. Fucking. Done.
I didn't flame you.
I responded to your assertion that it meant something that we weren't commenting on one of the handful of posts on this site having anything to do with disability that weren't ADVANCING disablism. And by handful I mean "could count on five fingers."
We don't comment here *because we don't find it safe.*
Because of things like the clusterfuck this whole thread has become.
I understand you have other concerns. That doesn't mean we don't have ours.
If you do have links for the anti-trans and sex worker comments, that would be wonderful - if you don't or don't feel like it - I do understand.
I start my full time job tomorrow and I am already up hours later than I should be, and a missed hour of sleep isn't just an inconvenience for me, I already have like two whole waking hours every day that aren't just me drained dead either being at work, getting ready for work or getting settled after work.
All of which is to say I will try to look into things myself. But I can't promise to find them on my own.
amandaw
I see all caps as a pretty good indicator of a flame. Plus I read through all the comments, I knew what the argument was but you didn't respond to my argument. Instead, you just restated the argument that's already been stated a thousand times in this thread except you did it with MORE EMPHASIS. And refusing to acknowledge when the staff has tried to contribute to a positive discussion on disability seems counter productive to me.
I let the word "lame" slip into a nearly two paragraph comment once and Feministing users jumped to tell me that they wouldn't take me seriously as a contributor anymore because of that even though I did apologize. I used to value having a voice on this site and having other commenters tell me they would no longer listen to it was incredibly hurtful. And if you'll see my post above you'll know that I've faced some honest to God harrassment from the Community site lately. So yeah, I suppose I'm a bit touchy.
I feel that Feministing is becoming increasingly hostile. The users who signed this letter do play a part in that hostility. I will not be coming here anymore. Presumably, a few of you will celebrate that and say that I was just an ableist asshole and good riddance. I really don't care. I know I'm not.
I think there is a reason that the staff is not taking your comments as seriously as you'd like. I think it would be valuable for you to evaluate what that reason is.
And refusing to acknowledge when the staff has tried to contribute to a positive discussion on disability seems counter productive to me.
No, the staff doesn't get a cookie because they posted one article about a topic that they've been aware is lacking on their site for at least a year.
They shouldn't improve their coverage and treatment of disability issues because they want applause. They should do it because disabled women exist and intersectionality is crucial to feminism.
Your comments about the open letter contributing to hostility are laughable. That whole bit we often repeat about angry feminists being angry because we have something to be angry about? Yeaaahhhh....it applies to more than just the white/hetero/cis/abled feminist.
Dont leave! I like as much intellectual stimulation from my fave blogs and would feel it to be a loss if posters started leaving because of some irrational ranters. Youre a frequent poster and I always liked your posts.
Please tell me you just didn't call amandaw an 'irrational ranter'
Whose amandaw? I dont see anyone by that name on this blog. Anyways, so what if I did.
What? You're both saying you don't feel safe here. The poster above was commenting that they didn't comment on that particular post because they don't feel comfortable on this site either...how is that flaming you?
You're rather valuable to this community, and it sucks that you'll be leaving. Perhaps a reconsideration? :)
A post that describes art, even art created by women with disabilities with an activist bent, is not really addressing any of the issues that have been brought up in the letters that have been written to Feministing.
Art is awesome. I like art. Every week I post a link to vids of competition wheelchair dancing, or Bill Shannon's crutch dancing. This is totally a form of activism, in reminding people that certain types of disability are not a barrier to dance.
However, this is not enough. If it were, the entire site about feminism would be dedicated to feminist art, the Vagina Monologues, and similar projects.
Also, since you may have missed this: I am not a "supposed defenders of the disabled". I have a disability. My husband has a disability. We don't need "defenders", we don't need someone to speak for us. We are speaking. The women who have written open letters to feministing are women with disabilities. Do not erase that.
I so agree with this. We have been speaking up, but we constantly get dismissed. If feminist issues were getting dismissed on this site, all hell would break loose, but I guess it doesn't matter when you're only insulting the cripples, crazies and retards.
All of those are terms I've seen used to describe people on this blog. This is not a safe space.
I'm on board with this 100%. I'm hesistant to co-sign only because I feel I'm not educated enough in ableism to contribute to the discussion and spot it when it happens.
As noted in the open letter, this is not a safe space for many people. Trans issues are often trounced on and we've only recently become gay friendly (but only when it's in a satirical sense, which peeves me a bit). Race issues often get ignored unless it's POC's hair or physical appearance.
This site has a *long* way to go and I think part of the evolution of the process is everyone, including the mods, being open to the idea that we do use offensive language without intention. We also use it with intention for effect. We need to learn how to own *both* instances of problematic language and move to change it.
When someone says "[this statement] is problematic" responding with "that's not the point" is inappropriate (not to mention privileged and rude). I'm fairly confident we're all here understanding what the point is, but want to make sure that the language used it not repeated in the future because it *is* hurtful language, even if you don't believe it to be so.
This site is most known for being pretty ruthless in commenting. Unfavorable opinions are trolling; problematic language ignored and the mods are usually "too busy" to fix the problems at hand by, well, modding. It's frustrating and taxing as a frequent reader/commenter to have to contend with "will this comment get flamed?" every single time I post.
My opinions are not always popular, but I am always apologetic and rephrase when called out on problematic language. I feel it's my duty as a feminist to ensure that I do not exclude anyone who may fall under my same umbrella.
After all, what would I do is someone called me a faggot here?
If someone called you a faggot I'm sure they'd get deleted. I'm bisexual and mainly into women and I'm sure if I wouldve noticed any overt homophobic slurs. Why not paste the specific comment youre referring to? As of now without that, your claims are unsubstantiated and arise more from delusion than anything lucid.
Gopher, as I pointed out in the post, homophobic slurs do get past the mods fairly often.
Athenia said : "I'm so sick of people saying that it's not their job to be an educator...it's like, why are you even a feminist? It's called activism for a reason!"
And I have to wholeheartedly agree.
Yes, I understand the "it's not [oppressed group]'s responsibility to educated [priviledged]" idea. Nowhere in the following comment am I advocating that anyone takes the burden of educating another onto their shoulders and relieve the other of responsibility entirely. I'm merely protesting the idea that those of the marginalized group are being somehow "generous" in their addressing the marginalization issue.
It was suggested above that "taking initiative" involves reading blogs/ articles/ self-educating about the issues of a marginalized group. And once the issue is presented to an ignorant person, I wholeheartedly support this.
But to suggest that this is the inherent responsibility of every person without any prompting or otherwise introduction by an advocate of said marginalized group is not only unrealistic but also grossly irresponsible.
I fail to understand how someone ignorant of an issue, of the fact that they are being offensive or that a certain controversy/ oppression even exists, can be expected to research and fully understand the ins and outs of the issue.
No, it is not your responsibility as a PWD, as a feminist, as a woman, as a POC, as a queer, to educate the ignorant.
But that *is* your responsibility as an activist. Not to hold their hand and walk them through every step of their education, but certainly to present the issue (of which they are obviously ignorant, and you are not) and the problem you have with their offensive behavior.
Assuming that ignornance and privilege are "unwillingness" to consider the marginalization of others is ultimately going to undercut the progress of whatever cause you support... as someone who recognizes a problem and wants it to be fixed, it is your responsibility to try to fix it. If that means including people from outside of the community (previously ignorant people), then that isn't something that you should complain about. Specifically, if you want an organization to include disability in mind when, say, designing a website (an example mentioned above), then you are specifically addressing a problem that clearly you see where others don't... it then becomes your responsibility, as someone who is actively supporting and attempting to create this change, to at least provide a starting point for whatever organization it is you'd like to change.
To suggest that it is not at all our responsibility as activists for a cause is frankly, to me, one of the most confounding ideas I have ever encountered.
No, it is not your responsibility as a PWD, as a feminist, as a woman, as a POC, as a queer, to educate the ignorant.
But that *is* your responsibility as an activist. Not to hold their hand and walk them through every step of their education, but certainly to present the issue (of which they are obviously ignorant, and you are not) and the problem you have with their offensive behavior.
Many people do do these things! In these super nifty places called "their blogs." The kind of places where, if the person engaging in the offensive behavior actually cared, they would already be hanging out. I do believe that I addressed this in my previous comment up above.
http://community.feministing.com/2009/10/open-letter-to-feministing-1.html#comment-304570
So, no, activism is not about explaining the same thing forty gazillion times no matter how much it hurts you to do so and no matter how likely it is that the person you're trying to educate is going to call you hysterical and overly-sensitive, and it's certainly not about begging what is supposed to be your own fucking community to give a shit about you.
Although I suppose it was not the initial topic of this post (and thus apologize if you see it as a derailment), I'm not addressing "begging your own community to give a shit about you," but about people generally ignorant [and probably privileged] of the marginalizations you talk about.
I'm concerned with this "if they cared, they would already be educated/ hang out in these blogs/ communities... and if they're not, there's nothing we can/ should do about it" vibe I'm getting from some of these comments.
The inherent ignorance of people of privilege does not preclude them from caring about issues; because they might legitimately be unaware that the issue exists (and thus are not aware of the offensive terms/ actions, and will not be hanging out in issue-specific communities) does not mean that they will not care about the issue or further educate themselves once the issue is presented to them.
I appreciate that many people have wonderful and useful blogs which try to help educate and introduce people to issues and further discussion and tolerance... but it's unrealistic and unhelpful to expect everyone to stumble on these blogs, on every issue that may ever arise, and educate themselves perfectly. As activists it is indeed our responsibility, if we really advocate for change, to enlighten and bring to the forefront these issues which we find so pressing, and which offend us. I'm not sure how useful it is to expect the ignorant to simply up and introduce themselves to issues (of which many of them are completely oblivious) and educate themselves to our standards.
Even in communities like this, as has been demonstrated, not everyone is even aware that certain issues exist, or certain words are problematic. That does not mean that anyone is being lazy, dismissive, or malicious, and it doesn't demonstrate a lack of care or concern for the issue... it's pure IGNORANCE, and as someone with the *privilege* of being educated about the issue, and someone advocating for change, it is our responsibility to correct that.
Agreed. Look, no one is perfect, and we're not clairvoyant either. We can't anticipate every issue that will arise. The sinister genius of privilege is that it is often invisible to those who have it.
Therefore, it is indeed our responsibility as activists to point it out to people. "Hey you over there, that thing you said was fucked up, because it devalues people". If we hope to change the world, we have to call attention to the problems.
But I happen to believe that the obligation stops there. After you've called someone out, you can choose to walk away. If you're sick of having the same argument, or it pains you to discuss something, or if you just have somewhere to be, you can walk away from the encounter. For those who feel they can, and want to - hey, go further. Have the debate, educate, whatever.
Saying and doing offensive things isn't always deliberate cruelty. Ignorance isn't an excuse, but it really isn't something that people should be attacked for. I'm not telling anyone not to get angry - go ahead and get pissed! But don't go to the default assumption that someone is the enemy just because they're ignorant. On the flip side, when someone points out your ignorance, think about what they're telling you. Everybody needs to work on handling issues constructively - and attack and defense are both counterproductive.
I'm not telling anyone not to get angry - go ahead and get pissed! But don't go to the default assumption that someone is the enemy just because they're ignorant.
Well put.
Right. Well, now that it's hit the front page of Feministing, perhaps we can take it as read that everyone has had their privilege pointed out to them, and is now responsible for their own education? That they too can run off and use google? Now are we allowed to get angry that someone is using hateful language, and sustaining its usage within a community in a way that makes other, marginalised people feel unsafe? No? Not yet? When will it be time for PWD to be heard?
And by the way, this 'privilege of being educated about the issue' to which you refer? For many people, that's the privilege of everyday seeing that others use you as their go-to insult. The privilege of not being treated as fully human. And the privilege of having those who supposedly try to deal with the intersectionality of that identity 'woman' consistently denigrate all those who don't live up to their standards. Some privilege. (Yeah, there are TABs, like me, and some others on this thread, who are educated about issues around disability. Not in the same way, because living something is different.) Understand that these here threads, where people are working hard to make the oppressive practices clear, are threads in which we're working to educate you. And over and over again, people seem to be slipping right past the issue at hand, in order to tell us we have to be prepared to educate all and sundry. How about, now, you step up to the plate? How about you call out your community for its oppressive practices? How about you, now that you've had your privilege pointed out to you, go and educate yourself so that you can participate in these conversations in a manner that isn't simply about defensively telling PWD that they're not doing what they ought to be doing?
I'm not entirely sure to who or what you're responding, because at first it seemed to be to my comment about being educated, but by the end I was lost; you seem to be suggesting that I (and anyone who has advocated a point similar to mine and/or defended the notion that activists should be educators) am not only uneducated, but am not involved at all in activism/education about ableism, and in fact you skirt a tone which suggests that whoever you're responding to is indifferent and actively offensive.
By defending the notion that activists should be educators, and not attacking the ignorant simply because they're ignorant (I understand attacking offensive rhetoric, but not suggesting that, as dj_sex_ed put it, the ignorant are the enemy), I am not suggesting that PWD or any other marginalized group should not "be heard" or "be angry" about anything offensive. I'm not even saying, on this very specific thread, that anyone has an excuse for being ignorant or continuing to perpetuate offensive pejoratives. I'm arguing in general that the response by some members of this thread, and by some members of all marginalized groups, is irresponsible and nonsensical from an activist standpoint. This idea that the educated activists are being "generous" in pointing out offenses, that it is not their "responsibility" to inform the ignorant of their transgressions... that is what I'm claiming runs contrary to the very idea of activism.
I'm not skirting around the real issues, and if I can be frank and personal for a second, though I realize it's not contributing to the discussion, I feel like your tone is completely unnecessary. I rather dislike being treated as though I'm trying to silence some larger issue or that I'm part of the Big Bad Other who couldn't possibly be doing anything worthwhile for The Cause. Just because I'm not discussing everything or even the main topic does not suggest that I am dismissing its validity or that I somehow don't care. I feel this "educators" argument is also an important one to have, because the exclusion of "ignorant" people into such learning and activist communities (by treating them as the enemy, as simply too lazy or uncaring just because they don't already know about the issue) runs contrary to any intention of increasing tolerance or advancing a cause.
Yes, the issues have been pointed out to anyone reading this thread. No, nobody who has participated or viewed this should have any excuse for using offensive language such as what has been described in above posts and the original post/ open letter.
But the point of my contributions is that this isn't the last time anyone is going to run into this kind of language, this kind of ignorance. And to simply throw your hands up in exasperation and say "well there are many detailed threads on the internet/ there are many great books/ there are many people who know all about this ... you must just not care, you must not be trying hard enough, you must just be the worst kind of person" is not ever going to help.
You as a person are not obligated to explain anything to anyone. PWD are not obligated to educate or introduce the issue if they so choose.
But if you make the choice to be an activist, to actively work to change what you find offensive and wrong in the world, then it is your obligation to act, and to inform, and to educate. Nobody is forcing you to, nobody is demanding that of you.
Look, in the end, the point is that this post was supposed to be about feministing's ableism, and how problematic it is. Instead, it's turned into 'how those who are concerned about ableism ought to deal with those who are being ableist.' As far as derails which ensure that the actual point isn't being heard or discussed or acted upon go, that's pretty problematic.
When you said: The inherent ignorance of people of privilege does not preclude them from caring about issues; because they might legitimately be unaware that the issue exists (and thus are not aware of the offensive terms/ actions, and will not be hanging out in issue-specific communities) does not mean that they will not care about the issue or further educate themselves once the issue is presented to them., all I could think of was the many many emails that have been sent to Feministing about this issue. Even if we disagree about what it means to be 'legitimately unaware' of an issue, I think we can agree that Feministing cannot pretend to be unaware of the issue. In which case, I'm really not sure why we're spending all this time discussing whether or not we should - as the activists we all are on the internet? - explain to people the problems with ableism.
So yeah, it does feel like a derail; a shift of responsibility from Feministing to PWD in a rare thread dedicated to discussing Feministing's overweening atmosphere of ableism. I don't pretend to know what you're doing to support The Cause (whatever that is). I'm responding to what's going on in this thread here, and calling out what I think is problematic.
To be fair, you did initially bring up the argument about who's responsibility education was in our conversation above, so thats a good pinpoint where the derail started.
Oh, certainly, being an educator can be an important part of activism. In meatspace, actually, I am a HOPE mentor (epilepsy awareness/education) and mental health educator. And I am thrilled to do it.
BUT.
The problem is that you (generic) are EXPECTING us to educate you. In a space like Feministing, it should be a two-way effort.
I agree.
I suppose I should have made it clear (if it isn't; if it's not, I take responsibility) that I was defending a nuanced point, not overarching education in all instances to all people.
I've pointed out that I don't believe it is anyone's obligation to hand-hold and lead someone through an issue. I'm only advocating patient and open introduction to an issue, and not Othering the ignorant because of their ignorance.
I agree that after this thread, the Feministing community can consider itself well and fully "introduced" to the fact that there is an issue, and we can all work to educate ourselves where our education may be lacking and continue in construstive discussion and advancement.
The only thing I expect of anyone (and everyone educated in an issue who identifies as an activist and wants to work for change) is to work to correct the wrongs about which they feel passionate.
If that means pointing out when someone unwittingly uses an offensive term, then yes, I expect that. I don't think that's a terrible burden to put on anyone.
Whew, finally got through all the comments.
I just want to thank the writer of the open letter, and all the folks who have spent so much effort bringing this to the attention of the Feministing staff, and those of you who have called out ableist language when you've seen it on this site and enlightened users who may have been ignorant. It's not your responsibility to educate temporarily able bodied people about our ignorance, our prejudice, and our privilege, and it would have been pretty reasonable for you to give up on this community and move on.
We're all a member of some privileged group at some time in our lives (whether through our gender, sex, sexual orientation, race, class, education, language ability, religion, nationality, age, occupation... and on and on), so we all know that it's difficult, no matter how hard we try, to anticipate all of the concerns of non-privileged groups in all contexts, in our words and our actions. And likewise, most of us have been a member of some marginalized group at some time in our lives, and so we know the frustration of educating people again and again and again and finding ourselves continuously disrespected, marginalized, silenced, and even threatened.
That we collectively can make an effort toward educating each other, checking our privilege, having honest discussions even if they are painful, being willing to change our language or behavior when we learn it hurts others, being willing to challenge popular people's views at the risk of being shamed or harassed... all of this is a step in the right direction for feminism, and I applaud all of you who initiated it.
To everyone who is complaining about how it's so hard to be aware of the potential negative connotations of certain words...I call bullshit. 20 seconds on wikipedia starting from the "ableism" entry and you can get to a list of disability related terms with negative connotations.
The only reason to not know that lame is a perjorative term is because you haven't spent even ten minutes looking into disability related issues. And not everyone has, that's understandable. But when someone calls you on it, the proper response is not "But there's no way I could have known that!!! Lighten up!!", the proper response is to apologize and take ten minutes to google it.
I'm dripping in white, hetero, cis, and able privilege and yet I can still manage to avoid using blatantly offensive terms because I took a few minutes out of my life to educate MYSELF.
and yet I can still manage to avoid using blatantly offensive terms because I took a few minutes out of my life to educate MYSELF.
Are you sure? Are you one hundred percent sure? Because earlier in your post you say "I call bullshit", almost undoubtedly without knowing that bullshit's use in this fashion is derived from the Middle English "bull," which means to befool someone, and that fool is, in some circles, considered to be ableist language.
In all honesty, I point this out not to be a jerk, but to make it clear that we really genuinely don't understand the offensive origins of some of the common terms that we use, and that in some cases those offensive terms are so far removed from common usage that they are no longer relevant. That doesn't mean that