Hello, I am new to the Feministing community but I would love to get some opinions on this.
Strip clubs!
How do you all feel about them?
I personally am tired of hearing "boys will be boys" or it's "tradition" (when it comes to the bachelor parties). Is it so wrong that I do not want the person I am with to partake in this activity? What is worse is when I am told I am being unreasonable and will never find someone being so "prudish and strict".
In my opinion, I consider it almost like cheating because I find it disrespectful and distasteful. I know others will disagree and I do not mean to offend any others.
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I completely agree with you - strip clubs are disrespectful and distasteful. I once had a man say to me that the point of strip clubs is "for the man to go to and get all worked up and then have their girlfriends take care of them when they get home." Um, what?!? I think strip clubs are the epitome of women putting themselves on display for men and the male gaze. It also is a part of rape culture.
Men see these women on display for their viewing pleasure, and that idea becomes ingrained in society. For example, street harassers feel free to comment on a woman's ass (or boobs, legs, smile, hair, etc etc etc...) because they see woman as being on display for them. Same thing applies to the media, music videos, advertisements - it is all related.
People often say to me, "Well if it's the woman's choice to be a stripper then it's okay" - but I disagree. Those women are enacting patriarchy; patriarchy knows no gender!
I would not date someone who didn't agree with me on this because this is a big issue for me.
Yeah, I don't particularly care for them either.
I think if their partner is ok with it, then that's cool.
But I can't help but feel that if I said, "Oh honey, I'm gonna get all hot and wet at the Chip'n dale's Club, see ya later!"
I'm sure he'd be not so happy with that!
Your feelings are legitimate. I've had ex-boyfriends tell me similar things: it's just a guy thing, it doesn't mean anything, it doesn't happen frequently, I'll never find a guy who refuses to go to them.
Luckily for me, these things are untrue. There are feminist men who don't partake not because their partners ask them not to, but because they don't find anything positive, sexy, or "ok" about watching other humans take off their clothes and grind around for money.
And trust me - these people are far from "prudish" or "strict." :) Good luck!
I see nothing attractive about them at all. I went once because among a certain group of people I was associating with at the time, it was trendy to go to them, though I think one could easily call the practice "slumming".
To me it was a room full of damaged people, from the strippers themselves to the men who frequent them. There are few instances where I feel like I need to take a bath or confess my sins afterward, but that was one of them.
SO, since you were there, your describing yourself as "damaged" also, right?
Point your finger at the participants all you want, as long as you realize 3 fingers pointing back at you- you were a participant.
That you call it "slumming", does not actually make you rise above it.
Just the opposite in fact.
I'm more interested in your actual experience, on a deeper, more authentic level was. What really motivated you to go there and what kept you from seeing the people there as individuals? What made you feel separate, while you were actually one of them?
I suggest you read all other posts that include, strip clubs, sex work, strippers, etc. as well as the comments here.
In my experience, strip clubs were what allowed me, a severely asthmatic, single mother, to LEGALLY earn money and stay at home with my child all week. I did not have to take the meds that were destructive to the human body and mind full time, as I didn't have to be wheeze free full time. I had a sitter on wkend evenings and occasionally traded sitting time with other moms in the affluent neighborhood we lived in. When my breathing allowed, I went in to the clubs, when my breathing did not allow, I waited it out and was frugal. My lungs fluctuated day to day & wk to wk.
I did not have to go on any social services program, I did not have to go on disability (though I qualified), I survived without child support ( no offense toward anyone who utilizes those programs, it just wasn't for me) . We thrived. I was able to buy a computer and programs for film and photo editing (transitioned out of stripping with that) I was able to buy books, take classes, my child was able to make music and play any sport without thinking about how we would afford the uniform.
I worked in strip clubs before lap dances and as they started happening. I was 29 yrs old, had already studied feminist theory and was established as an activist artist by then.
That maturity was a good thing. I was able to identify the wealthy customers and not do lap dances, but rather, dance sensually from a foot away and talk, listen, flirt my way into hundreds of dollars ($400 to be exact) per hour. I was physically fit, my genetic illness (extreme form of asthma) was the only health issue I had.
Strip clubs were liberating for me. I loved the security guards and made sure they knew how I worked (I was a no touch/ no contact dancer). I loved the music, LOVED THE POLE! and loved how fierce I felt in those costumes (the shoes were killer). I appreciate that I learned self defense techniques in there, that I finally turned the table on the prejudice that goes with being physically beautiful by cultural standards. Instead of being harassed, I was making BANK.
I'm freelance now. I miss that money, the ability to live in a better neighborhood and a bigger space, the ability to jump on stage and make my phone bill in 1 hour, my rent on 1 or 2 nights, etc. -having money was liberating.
Now, before you dismiss me as an unintelligent female who has not studied feminist theory, and is a victim of the make gaze- know that I have shifted the dominant paradigm in my own way, even the slightest little bit, regardless of the industry I happened to be in, my whole life.
Currently, I work in the film industry & hire women in positions that woman rarely occupy when I can. I also write and direct feminist stories.
My favorite theorists are Kristeva, Cixous and Hooks.
read more about my experience here:
http://i_muse.livejournal.com/
"I finally turned the table on the prejudice that goes with being physically beautiful by cultural standards. "
You lost me there.
Perhaps i_muse meant that she was successful despite not meeting the mold on what culture deems "beautiful" -- i.e. blonde hair, big boobs, slender body... My husband and I watch G-String Divas and Cathouse on cable and there are a lot of women in those lines of work who are fat, black, Goth, punk, homely, small-breasted, short, old, etc... who would never been seen gracing the cover of Sports Illustrated, but they have a thriving clientele all the same.
Maybe. But if that's what she meant, that's kind of the opposite of what she said.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. It's very interesting to me to hear from someone who's actually been there and for whom it was beneficial.
Now, that said,
as for strip clubs and visiting them, who visits them etc.
It's not really cheating-
the women at strip clubs are less likely to go home with and or fuck your S.O. than anyone at a regular club.
Strip clubs can turn a customer on, they go home and apply the fantasy to their mate. Couples come in - that can spice up a relationship- it has just as often messed up a relationship though -much like 3somes, they don't live up to the fantasy.
Most customers are either there to celebrate a specific occasion or are very lonely men. Very lonely, painfully lonely men. Some of them are in relationships that could use therapy, some are divorced, some are just lost in life in general.
there are also plenty of alcoholics who go to topless clubs to get drunk with a nice view.
If you are thinking of going to a club- please remember to tip the dancers when they are on stage and do NOT try to touch them for that $1, $5 or $20.
Be respectful of the human beings who work there. Dancer/strippers time is money. If you want to talk to them, offer $20 per song, same as a dance.
Have fun.
The thing about couples going together always perplexes me. It seems that the whole focus is on the pleasure of the man and that the woman in the couple is supposed to get turned on vicariously by getting HIM turned on. It's very male-centric in it's approach (unless you have a situation where a woman is aroused by other women, and women getting nude in front of their spouses at that). There is no counterpart for women. It's almost like we're just supposed to suck it up and go along with it for his benefit even if it makes us uncomfortable watching our men get aroused by some other woman in our presence. And I guess it just irks me that few men would agree to the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot, but we're always supposed to go along with what they want. I also get sick of the perpetuation of the porn myth that women are all naturally bisexual and are supposed to get turned on by other women in a way that men are not expected to get aroused by other men (especially ones that are probably more handsome and better built than they are).
This is all philosophical for me. I'm one of those women who is conventionally attractive in the way lots of other women complain about being expected to look. I think pretty people are great and it does not bother me that my husband is bound to find people other than me attractive, or that he may fantasize about them as well. I know that I often fantasize about other men but we just don't feel the need to let each other know exactly who we might think about when we masturbate. I just don't need the specifics in my head and can't see how it would improve my relationship. I would never worry about my man cheating with some stripper, or anyone else. I just get a bit miffed when it is suggested that couples go together to watch naked women dance, as though there is something in it for everyone. I'm not saying the poster here was saying that people should do this, the post just brought the topic to mind.
I avoided couples. They were usually swingers or the female was bi and it was more often her idea and her wanting the dance. That didn't work for me, so I always passed it to another dancer.
I was particular about who I danced for. I maintained an average $1,000 per night off of straight, rich men...most of them were golfers, most of them were "white".
I will say this, if you are a female who's S.O. suggests you do anything that makes you uncomfortable, don't do it and speak out about it specifically.
Strippers do not benefit from you being pushed into a situation, you S.O. doesn't and you don't. I fully support women speaking out about what they do and don't appreciate sexually.
The thing about couples going together always perplexes me. It seems that the whole focus is on the pleasure of the man and that the woman in the couple is supposed to get turned on vicariously by getting HIM turned on. It's very male-centric in it's approach (unless you have a situation where a woman is aroused by other women, and women getting nude in front of their spouses at that). There is no counterpart for women. It's almost like we're just supposed to suck it up and go along with it for his benefit even if it makes us uncomfortable watching our men get aroused by some other woman in our presence. And I guess it just irks me that few men would agree to the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot, but we're always supposed to go along with what they want. I also get sick of the perpetuation of the porn myth that women are all naturally bisexual and are supposed to get turned on by other women in a way that men are not expected to get aroused by other men (especially ones that are probably more handsome and better built than they are).
This is all philosophical for me. I'm one of those women who is conventionally attractive in the way lots of other women complain about being expected to look. I think pretty people are great and it does not bother me that my husband is bound to find people other than me attractive, or that he may fantasize about them as well. I know that I often fantasize about other men but we just don't feel the need to let each other know exactly who we might think about when we masturbate. I just don't need the specifics in my head and can't see how it would improve my relationship. I would never worry about my man cheating with some stripper, or anyone else. I just get a bit miffed when it is suggested that couples go together to watch naked women dance, as though there is something in it for everyone. I'm not saying the poster here was saying that people should do this, the post just brought the topic to mind.
Well, if cheating is defined as having sex, then you may be right but I am not sure that is what the author of this post meant. Everyone defines cheating differently and for some a man getting a lap dance and aroused by an almost naked woman is cheating.
When I posted this I was implying that everyone's definition of cheating is different. Sorry if I did not specify this.
Thank you for all the comments, they are interesting to read.
The thing about cheating is that the definition is different for each relationship. It's only cheating if it "breaks the rules". People in open relationships aren't cheating on each other when they have sex with other people, because that's part of the agreement. Maybe you define just sex as cheating, but that definition only extends to your own relationships, not everyone else's. Personally, I consider strip teases and lap dances to be cheating, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.
I think they're boring and gross. So I don't go to them. I don't lose sleep over other people going.
Hi there - don't worry about people saying you're a prude, cheating is whatever you decide it is within the bounds of your relationship. So although for some people their partners going to strip clubs doesn't matter, to others it does. I wouldn't want my partner to go to one because I would consider it cheating - basically I wouldn't think it was fair that he could get sexual enjoyment out of someone else when I can't, whether he paid for the pleasure or not!
Fortunately he understands this (not without some hassle at first, I will admit), but he respects me enough to listen to me when I feel this strongly about something.
I do have to say that I don't think the clubs themselves are wrong - what other people choose to do is entirely up to them and I wouldn't think any less of them if they went to or worked in one. It's just not something I would want in my own relationship.
lledin,
I have never been.
Let's ask the question another way. If a woman proposed to go to see the Chippendales, and her partner took offence, would you say
1) 'yes, of course, the Chippendales are demeaning to men (and women)', or
2) 'hey, I am a free woman, I can do what I want - and if he can't take it, then tough'.
If you say 1) I have no quibble (you are being consistent). If you say 2), then I shall ask 'what is the difference?'.
Your call!
well, particularly given what I've heard of trends in lap dancing, there is a pretty big difference in the level of service expected. so, while I'd like to agree with you, that's a pretty big fail.
that said, I don't really have an inherent problem with strip clubs-they're a fantasy, and as soon as we can work to make those who are providing the fantasy have enough power to really enforce limits they want, everyone can have fun.
Except that the Chippendales is quite different from a strip club. It is a lot tamer (A friend convinced me to go to a show). I found the experience to be kind of sad and really unsexy. People trying to be sexy and taking off their clothes for money just does not appeal in any way to me. Plus, you can't totally divorce the experience from the culture that spawned it and that it occurs in. Women have a history of being objectified, men don't. That doesn't make a rare instance of male objectification ok, I think the event/topic in question has to be viewed within the frame work of the culture in which it exists.
The fact that Chippendales is the only male equivalent people can come up with is very telling in itself.
No its not. Notice how no one mentioned the name of another strip club. Chippendale's succeeded so well as a chain that it became synonymous with its niche industry, and it has no true counterpart in terms of market visibility. Am I to take that as evidence of it being a minor sub-sector?
Yes, it's evidence that male strip venues are such an anomoly that Chippendale's is all people can think of....strip clubs where men basically wear what you could see them wearing at the beach any given day. Some stripping, huh? Sort of like how Eileen Wournos is all people can come up with when they try to argue that there are just as many female serial killers as men. Riiiiight.
Chippendale's is so freakin' classy too...
Oh there's LA Hardbodies too. They come to my town sometimes :D
True that the fact that one can only name one or two "types" of male strip clubs while female strip clubs don't even have "types" they are so widespread and also that Chippendale's (the one everybody knows) is really classy and SO many female strip clubs are not
is rather your point though.
Anyways-- some male strip clubs DO have nudity... I have seen pics on gay blogs anyways. Lol
I can't name a single strip club which had anywhere near the success of Chippendale's.
Chippendale's has larger success, because of this it holds a much larger prominence in culture. Not because its the only one, simply because it is so damned successful. Yet you hold this as an example of how rare it is?
The only brand of tissues I can name off hand is Kleenex. Is this because there are no other tissues besides kleenex? Is it indicative that kleenex is the only brand of tissues in the world? Does it prove that because I can name multiple paper towel brands that no one really uses tissues? No. It just means that certain brands dominate certain sectors.
I can't name a single strip club which had anywhere near the success of Chippendale's.
They're called called the cities of Amsterdam, Las Vegas, etc. There are simply too many strip clubs to count in some places, such that the places themselves have been associated with sex and stripping. Whole cities and neighborhoods dedicated to adult, er, I mean 'gentleman's' entertainment vs a few niche joints? Some comparison.
There is nothing wrong with being upset that he's seeing other women naked (and enjoying it). It's up to the two of you to determine what the boundries are that make you feel comfortable. But acting as if this is a social issue not a personal one is clouding the issue.
Are you being honest with yourself? Is it almost like cheating because it makes you jealous to think of him around naked women, or because you think it is disrespectful and distasteful? There are plenty of actions that are disrespectful or distasteful(not leaving a tip for a server, driving recklessly, telling an offensive joke) that would make many people upset with their partner without calling being mistaken for cheating.
Well, I think if you asked the average guy who says "It's no big deal" if he would be okay with his wife being topless grinding on some other man's lap, you'd quickly find out it suddenly becomes a big deal. If you aren't okay with other men looking at my bare boobs, why am I supposed to be okay with you standing next to another woman looking at hers that way? There is no difference in the intimacy. My personal rule is don't ask me to be okay with something you wouldn't tolerate.
Agreed, that is exactly my point. Feeling cheated on at strip club is all about jealousy and not wanting your partner in a sexual situation with another person. And there is nothing wrong with feeling that!
To pretend it's about strip clubs being "distasteful" or anti-woman is clouding the real issue. A man doing something that his partner passionately feels is anti-feminist and upsetting is an ass-hole thing to do, but it's not cheating or like cheating.
"If you aren't okay with other men looking at my bare boobs, why am I supposed to be okay with you standing next to another woman looking at hers that way?"
Try again. How about: "If you aren't okay with me looking at other naked men, why am I supposed to be okay with you looking at naked women?" Last I heard, male customers don't take their clothes off at strip clubs.
If you are going to set up a hypothetical case of hypocrisy, you need to make the activities symmetric.
I said the level of intimacy is the same. It's still your partner being close to another person with one in various stages of undress and engaged in some form of erotic activity. Also, there really is nothing comparable since male strippers most generally never disrobe to the degree female strippers do. In this culture a shirtless male is not the same form of eroticism as a topless woman and you know it. Women get to see men shirtless all the time; it's a special treat for them to get to see the tittays. So, I stand by what I said.
Seriously: how many men who say it's just harmless fun would say the same thing to their daughters or wives who tell them they plan to start stripping for a living, and possibly in full view of their male friends and co-workers? Still harmless? I doubt it.
Also, there really is nothing comparable since male strippers most generally never disrobe to the degree female strippers do.
How many male strip bars have you been to?
It would seem disingenuous to think that there AREN't any male strip bars or male personal strippers that bare all. From what I observe, when female strippers are dancing, if a man decides to touch them, bouncers will be on the man in a sec. The atmosphere is way different when male strippers are performing, women can fondle and stuff without any repercussions.
There was another Feministing poster who posted on this regarding why there no outcry when it comes to men stripping (most people seem to think the men ENJOY it...mmmhmmm...).
Agreed. This is like a case of comparing apples to oranges. Going by that logic, it would be totally okay for women to go Male strip bars, :apparently there's nothing special about seeing men stripping. And of course, men ENJOY being naked in front of clothed women anyway because in THIS culture, that's how it IS.
There is nothing inherently wrong with a strip club... and is there something wrong with a person not in a closed relationship going to one? Debatable...
Is there something sexist about most strip clubs and the people going to them? Probably, I would say. I would doubt that someone who goes there would see the sexual performances as sexual, and the performers as performers, and then go home and view all women as human beings. But its possible that one can go there and still be a feminist.
IN a closed relationship. NOT in an OPEN relationship.
My sister-in-law is getting married next month. I have never met her fiance, as he has been back and forth to Iraq on many occasions, but there is a slim chance that, if he has a bachelor party, I will get invited. Thing is, though, I am diametrically opposed to strip clubs, porn, or anything scenario that depicts women as nothing more than objects for the male gaze.
I anticipate a fallout in my certain refusal to involve myself in any bachelor party. I'm just not sure how to go about dealing with it.
I'm not going to get into whether strip clubs are wrong or right on a social level, but I'm uncomfortable with them being a part of my life or my partner's life and there's nothing wrong with that. It is possible to find a male partner who isn't into strip clubs. If you're a man who likes strip clubs, it's also possible to find a female partner who likes them.
I'm personally not into them and I wouldn't be with someone who was. Different strokes for different folks.
I see nothing wrong with adult strip clubs as doing so is a DIRECT judgement against the women who willfully decide to strip for a living. Sex workers are not beneath you and by extension neither are their lawful customers.
Some women take issue with it- its their perogative to do so and find a man that will respect their feelings and their right to be anti-strip clus. Many men do NOT have an issue with strip clubs and for some of those men the right to go to a strip club is one worth finding a woman who will respect that right as opposed to one who will shame him for it.
I've been to strip clubs before with male dancers and if you think its anything short of big flying penises, gymnastics and grinding then you have a very small view or little knowledge of what goes on in one.
I have no problem with women who decide to be strip club workers. None at all.
However, I too find it frusterated that the idea that we're forced to allow our committed partners to go to one and if we don't we're a "ball-busting bitch".
I always think about if a woman turned to her husband and said, "I need to unwind with the girls, I think I'm going to go and imagine I'm have sexual encounters with other random men for awhile. Don't wait up!" Pssh!
Like that would fly. (with most)
That's exactly how I feel.
I know that in the next couple years my boyfriend and I will be getting married and his obnoxious friends will be planning some sort of tie-him-up-and-put-a-strippers-boob-in-his-mouth maneuver. I've decided already that I'm going to strongly object no matter if it makes me look like a "prude, controlling, bitch" to everyone or not.
Yeah, interesting that you're the ball-busting b**** for expecting him to be considerate of your feelings. Fcuk is that?
Heaven forbid a man take some responsibility.
We eloped, my wife and me. Plus, I didn't have any obnoxious friends as I've always been somewhat of a loner. I'm hoping I simply don't get invited to my future brother-in-law's bachelor party, if any. It'll save me the trouble of turning him down and save my wife the trouble of taking the blame for that fact. Fortunately, my sister-in-law has expressed desire for a coed type of pre-wedding celebration, where everyone can get together - male and female. That'd be cool - and much more in sync with what I stand for.
Have you TOLD him you object to him having strippers at his bachelor party if he wants to marry you?
Some straight men will lie about it, Some straight men will see it as a deal breaker and seek out a woman who doesn't think she has the authority to allow or NOT allow him to go to a strip club just as he wouldn't think he had the authority to tell her where she can't go. There ARE those straight men out there who wont go to strip clubs. Any woman against or has a problem with men going to strip clubs should only seriously date those men who wouldn't dare enter one for any reaosn including a bachelor party for himself or his very best friend.
Oh yes he knows. And he's voiced his opinion of not having the slightest interest in the idea.
However you noticed my usage of the words "tie him up". The MTV show "Engaged and Underage" used to be a secret guilty pleasure of mine. If I saw one groom shackled with a stripper forced on him, I've seen 20!
My solution to the scenario will probably be to do a joint bachelor/bachelorette party with belly dancers and fire breathers!
This is a bit of a coincidence as i was talking to my boyfriend about this just today.
I am really really super conflicted about strip clubs (as with porn and prostitution) and i think i always will be. I will admit I have only been to a strip club once, and only because at the time of day (I think it was about 5am) it was the only place that was open where me, my boyfriend and our friends could get a drink after a long night out.
I really didn't want to go in there, i felt uncomfortable with the thought, i don't know if i have a problem or not with others going, it's so hard because on the one hand, obviously i want people to have agency and choice to do whatever the hell they want in their lives, on the other hand, i can't help but feel like stripping is inherently sexist (This is not to demean the women who choose to strip at all, please believe me), so anyway i ended up going in even though i really didn't want to, i was the only girl of about 6 guys (my bf included).
Once i was in there, i was trying to hold it together, be calm, but i was really ridiculously uncomfortable. I told my bf that we had to leave after i realized he was watching a stripper who was completely naked behind me, and i lost it. Once outside i was in tears, and i still don't really know why, i think maybe if i went on my own accord it would have been different, but since i would have been letting everyone down being the 'prudish feminist' by saying no i went in anyway.
After this, i made it clear to my boyfriend that if we were to be in a relationship, i would not be able to stay in that relationship were he to go to a strippers (he went to strippers in the past regularly, but often just to sit down and chat to them rather than lap dances, his reasons being that he thinks the female body is beautiful, and he has once given a stripper 20 bucks on the spot to come and sit with him to get away from 4 other guys who were hassling her) precisely for the reasons already mentioned such as him not wanting me to go to and see other naked men in a male strip club. And another interesting comment i got from him was that i asked him if he thought those strippers had boyfriends, or husbands, and he said he really hoped they didn't. So by that reasoning, if he didn't think it was cool for strippers to be in a relationship (which i don't agree with, but was arguing from his perspective) then he should very well understand that i didn't want him to go while we were in a relationship.
So that's my story on stripping, but having said that, i have some literature by strippers and sex workers i want to read, to get their perspective, I'm a ridiculous book worm and can't help but read everything under the sun on a topic once I'm interested in it. So I'm quite certain my opinion could be swayed either way. I apologise for the length of this, the comments on here are really great, and illuminating. I would love to hear from more people who see it from a positive view, either people who like going or the workers themselves, because i just don't know where to place my thoughts about it yet. This topic is really really difficult for me to sort my thoughts out about.
gemski, I'm gonna try and point something out that I think may be happening here (but I could be way off so let me know what you think!)
It seems to me that you DO understand how you feel about strip clubs, but rather, you are becoming conflicted about what your boyfriend is saying to you. I assume you respect him, so you're giving his views a chance. However, from what you wrote, it sounds to me like his point of view is highly unfair, and his varying expectations for what he can do and what women should do is entirely ignorant. He's viewing women as vulnerable, including you, and he's utilizing double standards. Am I off-base?
Umm I'm not too sure. I just asked him before how he would feel about me going to a male strip club, and he said he honestly wouldn't care, and that he would feel more insecure about me dancing with a random guy in a club than having a naked lap dance from a male stripper which i was really surprised about. That was prompted by my telling him about this post, and all of the comments, most of which he agreed with (being that 1.strippers are still people who have choice and deserve respect and not shame 2. Each relationship gets to decide for itself what the rules of that relationship are 3. If one partner does not want the other to go to a strip club, that should be honoured...just to condense the most common arguments.)
I should add, my bf is 100% supportive of me not wanting him to go to a strip club, and he understands completely. And i think with more discussion a few of his other negative views (strippers not having bf's) have changed since then, i must also add that after i left the strip club and he saw how upset i was he was really apologetic and his face was white with guilt at how upset i was and said that he should have told the others that we should go somewhere else. So he really is not a bad guy at all, and yes he does deserve my respect.
Initially he was a bit wary of my feminism, seeing as it sort of flourished while we were already together, we have a lot of heated debates about a lot of things. The latest being fat acceptance which he just can't get, but ill keep on trying. But for 99% of the time he is really supportive. Recently he said to me that my studying Gender Studies has 'opened his eyes to a lot of the unfairness in the world' which has to be a good sign right?
And we are both growing, especially with each other. He has 3 brothers, so his upbringing has been very full of masculine influence, but he is also extremely loving and cuddly. And like with any new venture, especially feminism (since I'd say I've only been a self proclaimed feminist for 2 years, but have prob now looking back have been one since i was about 12) it takes time for growth, and he is always willing to change and see things differently, so while some of his views are somewhat questionable, i am confident that with time and mutual discussion he will become more feminist, even if he won't admit it :P
ps. sorry these posts are so long :S
No worries about the length.. I like reading too :)
I realize my post was sort of harsh on your boyfriend, but I was just responding to the words you had written-- Thanks for responding and clarifying past/present for me. Your situation seems very similar to my own, actually. I'm glad to hear you and your boyfriend are having such a positive influence on each other.. I hope you continue to grow and challenge one another! Rock on sister!
thankyou for the kind words and encouragement :)
I'm ambivalent on strip clubs in general. I don't think sex work is immoral or necessarily anti-feminist, but I am wary on the potential for women to be exploited in these industries and the kinds of attitudes it feeds men about women in a larger context. Of course, the same could be said that these same women who are taking in fistfuls of cash from horny men are, in turn, exploiting them. Sex work also one of the few fields in which women out-earn their male counterparts, which is sad, but financial autonomy is also a cornerstone of women's rights.
I seem to be in the minority here in that ever since I met my husband four years ago, I've been BEGGING him to come with me to the one strip club in town and he won't go! I don't drink, so I rarely go to bars, and I've certainly never been to a strip club. I'm more curious than anything. Yet strip clubs just aren't my husband's bag (he doesn't drink either) and he would feel very uncomfortable at one, so I don't press the issue. I think that if one partner feels uncomfortable with the idea of the other going to a strip club, for whatever reason, that the other partner should respect those feelings and wishes and refrain from said activity. Having said that, I wonder how many people here who said they don't like the idea of their SO going to a strip club also have a problem with them watching porn. Are the two so very different?
For me i think it is different. I may fail miserably at explaining why, but i will try. First of all, i think its different basically because of physicality. Obviously when one watches porn, you can't touch it, talk to the people involved, flirt, etc. But you can do these things (except for touching usually) with a stripper, for me it was physical proximity. I have no problem watching people have sex in movies or porn (only if its consensual and not extremely degrading of course), but to me these things for the most part aren't really real. They are sort of separated from reality, you aren't physically in the same area and aren't able to interact. I don't think i would have a problem with my bf watching porn, unless it was seemingly non-consensual or really awful like i mentioned before.
I think perhaps that explanation is far too simple and full of holes, but someone else might be able to elaborate.
I am wary on the potential for women to be exploited in these industries and the kinds of attitudes it feeds men about women in a larger context.>>
Considering that a high number of sex trafficking victims are first brought into strip clubs and then forced or coerced into prostitution, I'm incredibly wary of them. While I understand that many sex workers choose to be in the field and maintain control of their finances and lives, it cannot be ignored that many are not there by choice.
While I understand that many sex workers choose to be in the field and maintain control of their finances and lives, it cannot be ignored that many are not there by choice.
Truth! As a man who gives a damn, I'd rather not take any chances, what with so many better things to do with my time.
If a man wants to go to a strip club, I don't care but if MY man wants to go to a strip club then that is a problem. The first reason is that it immediatly makes me feel inadequate or not enough for him. He would be going outside the relationship to get something he could just as easily get within the relationship,I view this as a form of cheating. If this man thinks that seeing another naked women is worth causing me to doubt myself than that man is not worth my time.
The second reason I would not want my man to go to a strip club is because he would then be supporting the idea that a woman's purpose is to be appealing to men.
One of my exes was trying to justify his strip club experience by expressing his disdain for the strippers. This only make me more pissed. by him saying he would never date a stripper did not make me feel relieved, instead it helped me realise that he did not have respect for these women. Its a double edged sword. They say they don't have respect for the strippers yet they feel it is neccessary to see them. This sends mixed messages to the girlfriends as if to say "I want to be turned on, but I don't respect people who turn me on" where does that leave us? do we try to emulate the sex goddess strippers or would we lose respect? It is sad that these "boys" have more respect for the tradition of going to strip clubs than they do for the women who are stripping.
I now have a super awesome boyfriend who is not a fan of the strip clubs. being with him makes me realise how dis-respectful my exes really were and I will never settle again.