"Feminism is cool and whatever, but like, women shouldn't be MORE powerful than men."
Do you know how many times I have heard that drivel? If you are a fellow feminist and you have (ever) tried (ever) talking to a male/man/guy/boy/bro/dude or even non-feminist identified female, you've heard it too. I suppose this is just one of the many things that I hear on a constant basis that have always caused some degree of cognitive dissonance.
Do I agree with the aforementioned quote? Sure, I do. I am for complete and absolute equality between all sexes, races, all that. But whenever the subject is broached with males, the first thing I hear approximately 75% of the time (yeah, I don't know, its more than half and less than 100, no studies were conducted) is for some sort of assurance that I don't want to take from them. Like has been taken from us. For thousands of years. (Of course they manage to leave out that last bit.)
When I receive that as a response, several things run through my head, the most prominent thought being that only in discussions involving equal rights for the shat-upon do I encounter clarifications of the word ''equal'' so frequently. At every other juncture in life, I think we all grasped the concept that equal was exactly as it sounded. Having the same value.
I'm sure that there are a good number of men who are pro-feminist or feminist identified, and good on you, you're great, but you're not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about the guys who for some reason, when faced with the idea of women in power, with power, or having any power, stutter their way into an insecure oblivion asking me to assuage their fear, no I don't want to take "their power" before being able to move forward with the conversation or drop it entirely.
You see, what they'd have me believe is that they don't have a problem with women being in control of anything so long as women don't gain control of things men are ALREADY in control of. Which leaves us with... Oh. Wait. Absolutely nothing. Which is where we are now. Yay! Time to give up my feminist struggle, right?
Nevermind, I just remembered I still want things that make all those Dudes Who "Get It" feel as nervous as that time they were 15 and forgot to X out of all the porn when their mom sat down to use the computer.
I want to walk down a street and not be harassed. I want to be able to go to a website and not be bombarded with advertisements telling me that unless I look like this model, wear this outfit, or succumb to X beauty standard, I am ugly and therefore worthless to society. I don't have to want stupid tacky shit for a present on Valentine's Day to make up for the fact that I've been treated like a burden, bore or sex hole every other day of the year (...but I still have to put out on Valentines night because he bought me candy, right?) , I have the right to love myself even if I'm toofat-toothin-toohateful-tooangry-toocold-tootall-tooshort-tooanything.
These things are power that have been stripped from women because its easier to make us buy things we don't need and believe stupid lies when we have been trained to hate ourselves from the get-go. This is the power those men don't want us to have, and this is what I'm supposed to be reassuring them of. That they will still get to treat us like sub-humans and tell us who we should be (for their benefit) but we'll be mollified and feel like our little feminist movement has done something. They just want us to shut up and spread 'em.
So, what am I saying? A synopsis, please?
Only idiots, jackasses, sociopaths, despots and dumbfucks are concerned with maintaining undeserved power when they've been shitting on their equals for thousands of years. The end.
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word.
most especially : "this is what I'm supposed to be reassuring them of. That they will still get to treat us like sub-humans and tell us who we should be (for their benefit) but we'll be mollified and feel like our little feminist movement has done something."
Thank you.
yes thank you very much. I actually had a conversation with one of my guy friends last night that is kind of on the same idea but his response was absolutely shocking he said and I quote "I don't think we are ever going to have equality between the sexes. For as long as men are men they are going to want to oppress women, and as long as men want to oppress women, women are going to fight back and keep themselves from that oppression. I think it would be better for women to be on top however, because women are less likely to oppress men as badly as they have been oppressed, simply because they know what that oppression has felt like. Yes our world would be a much better place if we were to let women rule". I was absolutely shocked by that statement. A guy who actually thinks that women are more competent than men. While I don't agree with him, I think that the more we break down the gender stereotypes and allow women to be equal to men the farther away we will move from the patriarchy and even small steps are better than no steps at all. However, I think it shows that we are making progress when a man can stand up and say that women are more competent at being the ones on top than men.
I pretty much love you.
And of course you're right, but most people don't want to be forced into positions where they are asked to examine their own complicity in an unfair system. Most people barely want to examine their own lives.
It's sad to me the number of people who will always perceive of any change as a threat to their existence, and we see this now all over the place with health care reform and the programs President Obama's been proposing. What saddens me are the number of people who have no intent to ever open their minds long enough to realize how their own stubborn views hold them back and hold them down.
the worst thing are that there actually exist men who think that society PRIVILEGES women...
a lot of it is a total lack of self-examination, both of society and of their own attitudes towards women. it's a lack of thinking about the things women have to go through and put up with which men don't. in the end, perhaps a lot of it is not listening to what women say about their own lives or looking into their thoughts. maybe men should check out women's bodies a little less and their thoughts and feelings a little more?
as much as society, the media etc. shapes women's feelings about themselves, it shapes men's desires, feelings and opinions about women. if you're on the oppressed end of it, critical examination comes a bit more naturally since your quality of life is diminished by it. it may just be that if you are in a dominant position, life seems pretty much alright, and your views kind of blind you to what it feels like to be someone else.
an interesting comment i heard one guy say - not sure how relevant it is but i thought i'd add it - was he thought that women were almost always better doctors than men were since he felt they showed more consideration towards patients as people and were more careful how their use of language, both verbal and non-verbal, affected their patients. i wasn't sure entirely what to make of it, but it seemed an interesting opinion. he also said he felt women would make better police officers, though i can't remember the reasons he gave though i think it had something to do with the fact that he felt women would be more concerned with being fair, having been subjected to unfairness.
Well of COURSE women are privileged. They don't have to work, because their husbands will take care of that. They don't have to open their own doors or carry heavy packages! Women have it SO EASY, and they should stop being ungrateful and respect their men!
First, I would like to say that I love and respect women. Do not take Otis as speaking for the majority of men concerned with men's rights.
Privilege is a loaded word. There are some advantages women have in society, just as there have traditionally been some that men have (and are arguably a few we still have today). I have read the various male privilege checklists. Have you read any of the female privilege checklists like this one: http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2008/06/08/female-privilege/ ? You may not find all of the points convincing as I don't find all of the ones on the female privilege lists convincing but you should give them some fair consideration.
Being blinded to female privilege is why some women fight for their rights where they perceive themselves to be disadvantaged, while ignoring or even supporting injustice against men. I know you've heard it all before, the unfairness of divorce court, the one-sidedness of domestic violence laws, the presumption of guilt in rape and sexual harassment cases, etc. You can choose not to believe that these are real and serious problems, but then don't be surprised when men think that feminism is not about equality but female supremacy.
Great post, how many times have we all had that experience? It seems 90% of feminists' time is spent reassuring teh poor menz that we don't wish to cut their balls off.
When's the last time any of us were reassured that we weren't being objectified? I'm sighing and shaking my head as I type.
I just also want to say real fast thanks to everyone for your comments, I was nervous as all get out about posting and am now incredibly glad I did. (Its amazing what feeling understood can do for a person.)
When I first read the quote I assumed it was about men and women in general, but when I read it again and again I wonder if the guy meant that in any specific instance; i.e. a woman should never be more powerful than a guy, i.e. there should never be a female boss of a guy. Not sure, but it is a bit ambiguous.
I agree about the equality of sexes as a goal, but if men are presumed to have the more power of the two genders, then clearly for there to be equality some of this power has to be given up. At least that is the perception of some men and some women I suspect too. But I believe that the power isn't really that tangible and a lot of this is more about perception and values and it can be as simple as cultivating a mutual respect for a person irrespective of their gender.
Troll alert. Move on, nothing to see here.
Oops, I am so so so sorry! I meant this as a reply to the post below, from OtisTheSweaty. You're not a troll by any means!
Great post, thanks for writing. I came across a quote once on a feminist blog (can't remember which one), which I wrote down because it seemed to simplify a lot of things for me.
"Something which is not predominantly about men is perceived as oppression even though it is actually an attempt to rectify the gender imbalance in the mainstream."
It's just something I like to remind myself of whenever I hear shit like this, because it just makes so much sense to me. i.e. someone says some bullshit like, "Why are there Women's Studies classes, but no Men's Studies, that's sexist!" The person who says this believes that somehow men are being oppressed now because of this, when in fact, it is just an attempt to rectify the gender imbalance. Frustrating.
There are occasional masculinity studies stuff you can find. I, personally, think they're fascinating. Of course, I think they're fascinating for exactly the same reasons that most of the guys who whine about there being no men's studies classes would probably flip their shit and be ~so0o0o0o0o0o0o0o~ offended if they ever took one--because they deal with notions of masculinity as a social construct and the effects that these constructs have as men, and, of course, the idea that any aspect of a man's personality would be shaped by culture--that they could believe something just because it was normalized, not because it is Like Obviously Totally Rational And Hey Look Science--that they are in any way, shape or form products of their environment and not 100% Rugged Individuals--well, that'd be sexist tooooooooooooo!
They don't actually want men's studies classes, they just want their to not be women's studies classes. The guys that want men's studies classes GO AND TAKE THEM.
Women have done a lot to deserve respect, and I'm not going to honor your misogyny by going through the list of things. If you were that interested in the contributions from women to society you would look it up yourself. But to be direct, what have women done to deserve respect? We're humans, we're people, and we deserve to be treated as such.
well you pretty much state you want to change human nature, (a source of strenght for men and woman ), but just in favor for woman
ps
of all the species on earth only a few have the female in charge and out of those alot are facing extinction (so there's got to be atleast some benifit to it)
Go against human nature(eye roll)? So you think its impossible for men to evolve? So essentially youre for all of mankind being put into prisons so they dont oppress women? Because surely you dont think that if it was truly against mens nature to evolve that women should just put up with oppression, yes?Either which way women arent living in subjugation. Get off it!
And which species are those, lol. Seriously, where do you people get this stuff from?
And I guess if you call male animals "being in charge" living a life of near solitude, being constantly chased and beaten down by bigger males, and being denied access to a mate, then go for it, big guy! Be in charge!
"Only idiots, jackasses, sociopaths, despots and dumbfucks are concerned with maintaining undeserved power when they've been shitting on their equals for thousands of years. The end"
Ok, this made me laugh out loud (in a good way). I'm going to assume you are younger than I and all I can say is that I wish I had your spirit back in the day when I was dealing with these fools. Oh, how I missed many an opportunity...
Only idiots, jackasses, sociopaths, despots and dumbfucks are concerned with maintaining undeserved power when they've been shitting on their equals for thousands of years. The end
This is interesting, because speaking only for myself, I can say that I have no in fact even been *around* for thousands of years. I've been alive for roughly twenty. And call me crazy, but it was my understanding that most others also have not been alive for thousands of years. Assuming this crazy idea is true, it seems a bit silly to accuse men of today of "shitting on their equals for thousands of years".
The past is the past, but none of us were directly affected by that, and it's obnoxious for you, a privileged person of the 2000s, to talk about how "you" were oppressed and raped an objectified back in the Middle Ages. Get over yourself.
It's venting, OK? It's something foolish to counter foolishness, which sadly is sometimes called for. Like say, when I've been told that I am privileged because worst case scenario, I always have the option to sell sex---an option that most men don't have. Yes. I can always find somebody to fuck me-- rain or shine, on a street corner, in a tree, whatever. Because really at the end of the day, THATS what matters.
Um, the comment was meant to refer to men and women as collective, historical groups, not you or your modern day friends. Many of us, as in people in general, have lived in societies where men have oppressed women for thousands of years.
Exactly.
And historical oppression does affect the present day.
When there are few examples of influential women politicians and scientists, it's easy for men today to assume that women are inferior to men in these areas, and harder for young women today to aspire to those careers.
When religions whose holy texts are hundreds or thousands of years old use those texts as an excuse to oppress women today, it makes it harder for women to challenge and reform these patriarchal religions.
When most of the literature read in schools, as well as many of the historical texts and official records of important events were written by men, it makes women feel that we are less important and that half our ancestors' contributions to history and culture have been lost or undervalued.
And so on...
I haven't been living for thousands of years, but the fact that my mother, grandmother, great grandmother and so on were oppressed continues to affect me daily.
"The past is the past, but none of us were directly affected by that, and it's obnoxious for you, a privileged person of the 2000s, to talk about how "you" were oppressed and raped an objectified back in the Middle Ages. Get over yourself."
Yes, because history never effects current attitudes, social norms or rationalized inequalities. Duh.
how about we go through labor to deliver your children?
I don't like limiting women to their childbearing "role."
Also, I doubt sweaty guy has children. I sincerely hope not. He hates women too much.
I'm not limiting us to our childbearing role, just saying that in and of itself means that we deserve respect. Let alone the countless other things that we do. But most men don't understand anything other than the childbearing thing and I was simply allowing him to see the rediculousness of his argument in terms he could understand
What have we done to earn your respect? We're human. What the fuck more do you need than that?
Ignore the troll... move along...
A synopsis?
Only the pathetically and terminally ignorant embrace the myth that men ever had the power to begin with, and the even more ridiculous notion that the power that men do have isn't used for the benefit of women and children.
In the words of Jack Kammer, "Looking at men in government and deciding they have all the power is like looking at women in grocery stores and deciding they have all the food."
Men have always taken on hardship and the power that comes with it as a way to protect and provide for women and children.
Men's labor earns about 80% of all money earned. Women spend about 80% of all money earned. Where is the power in that? Who really has it?
The answer can be found in the ratio of square footage at your nearest mall. Almost all of it is dedicated to women's consumerism and much of the money they spend is money earned by men and passed over to women.
In fact, most all consumerism is women consuming. It is the only reason so much of this moronic drivel has been tolerated in the mainstream.
Men die seven years younger than women, and more frequently of all major diseases. Yet we have a National Office on Women's Health and the lions share of all gender specific federal research money goes to women's health concerns. At the same time we have a media dominated with imagined accounts of bias against women in medicine.
Where is the power for men in this?
We now have rape shield laws that effectively eliminate the need for proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and incarcerate men, many of them innocent, solely on a woman's accusation. Who has the power there?
Misandry is a multi-billion dollar industry in western culture. Male bashing and sight gags that glorify violence against men are a mainstay in advertising. Men who complain about it are branded as weak and whiners. Where is the power in that?
VAWA, at it's 15th anniversary has become a multi-billion dollar monstrosity of legislation that all but totally ignores the 835,000 male victims of domestic violence annually in the US. Police are trained with VAWA funds and consequently arrest whatever male is in the house in on domestic violence calls, regardless of who the perpetrator actually was.
When action is actually taken on women perpetrators they are generally referred to counseling while men are jailed. And the US DOJ totally ignores the multitude of studies that demonstrate that women commit half of intimate partner violence and the lions share of violence against children in the home.
Who has the power?
Women have always been protected with the blood of men and have drawn benefit from men's sweat. Indeed it was only blind chivalry that let the women's movement go as far as it did unopposed. For if men were not dedicating their lives to serving women, once they had the vote and equal opportunity at education and employment, feminism would had been openly opposed for the modern day fraud it has become.
I don't to be coddled or assured that feminists don't want my "power" I already know they don't. If they really wanted that power, women would be required to register for selective service. Women would represent half of combat deaths. They would take employment at equal rates in the same deadly, life diminishing professions that men do.
They would exercise that power in bistros and cafes when the check comes and they would refuse to take first place in life boats on sinking ships.
Yeah, right, power.
I have yet to meet a feminist who even knows the meaning of the word.
Sorry to feed the troll folks, I cannot resist...
Men die younger because they take more risks and do more things toxic to their health...the jobs that some of them do are sometimes dangerous and oftentimes not open or especially welcoming to women.
Medical research on women did not get started until a long time after many studies were done one men...and the results were assumed to be fine for women too, though no one ever really bothered to put women in clinical trials and see if that was the case. First time people came together to really discuss things affecting women's health - 1991. Here's an article from a group who sponsored the meeting: http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jwh.1999.8.15
The office for research on women's health wasn't founded until 1990. There was no law that said women had to be allowed in clinical trials until 1993. Remind me again how that is not biased and how women's health research is so important...realistically more money is probably being spent to catch up for all those years nobody was studying anything related to women.
Most men who rape don't get jail time, and if they do it's not at all fit to the crime. A 'woman's accusation' carries little weight in court. Perhaps you should withhold judgment until you've actually had to work with people who try to go to court for sexual assault/domestic violence...I have and it's not as easy and cheery as you think it is. If someone does get sent to jail, there is almost always some DNA or eyewitness testimony. Eyewitness testimony is not very dependable, but that has more to do with how our memory functions than with people lying. Rape shield laws are there to protect survivors from people who rape them and then claim that past sexual relations means that everything that ever happens between the parties is consensual...
VAWA funds can be used by men - it says it right in the bill. Check it out: http://www.ncdsv.org/images/FAQ_VAWA%20and%20Gender.pdf
Perpetrators of domestic violence don't get arrested unless the survivor chooses to press charges - the cops don't just walk in and arrest the first man they see. Many men, women and children die each year as a result of a justice system that doesn't take domestic violence seriously and that continues to let perpetrators (of all genders) back onto the streets to continue the violence.
From the NY Times:
"Women are barred from joining combat branches like the infantry, armor, Special Forces and most field artillery units and from doing support jobs while living with those smaller units. Women can lead some male troops into combat as officers, but they cannot serve with them in battle...
But the United States military may well be steps ahead of Congress, where opening ground combat jobs to women has met deep resistance in the past...And while the military is doing more to address the threat of sexual harassment and rape, it remains a persistent problem."
Here's the entire article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/us/16women.html?pagewanted=3&_r=1
If men were actually spending their time 'protecting' and 'serving' us, they wouldn't be cat-calling, ogling, groping, objectifying, sexually harassing, raping or beating us at such alarming rates.
It's bad enough that you just say stuff, but you don't have any information to back it up at all.
I should note that I think that perps of dv can be arrested if the cops see them doing something...I'm not sure exactly how that works or if it's the same in every state
The VAWA FAQ I linked to also addresses your other points, like why women are so violent (more often it's self defense) and other stuff.
Wow, you MRAs are great at making up statistics and trotting out quotes that are full of misrepresentations and outright lies, aren't you?
It's obvious Feministing management is away. This place is being overrun by trolls.
I know!
Take this gem:
In fact, most all consumerism is women consuming. It is the only reason so much of this moronic drivel has been tolerated in the mainstream.
I wonder if this includes porn? Google too the rescue. Survey says....
Porn revenue, $57.0 billion world-wide, is larger than all combined revenues of all professional football, baseball and basketball franchises.
US porn revenue, $12.0 billion, exceeds the combined revenues of ABC, CBS, and NBC (6.2 billion)
and someone else breaks it down elsewhere:
The pornography industry is larger than the revenues of the top technology companies combined: Microsoft, Google, Amazon, eBay, Yahoo!, Apple, Netflix and EarthLink
And we all know who the primary consumers of porn are, lol.
oops...typo..."google TO the rescue", Gah.
Let's see, cosmetics sales in US annually:
25 billion
Women's clothing: 28 billion (four times that of men)
Women's shoes: 12 billion (six times that of men)
That is 65 billion just to walk out the door in public without a purse, jewelery or other accessories. (and not counting the cost of the vibrator, excuse me, massage unit, under the night stand)
Google didn't rescue you. It sank you.
Whatever the numbers are on pornography, it is microscopic in a 14.4 trillion dollar economy.
Shoes, clothes and make-up? Right, because feminists are the ones driving the demand for women to look like cartoons, lol. You should be a regular here, you have a knack.
And I hope you are including the 90 billion a year slave labor economy, where 40% of the profits generated are from---drum roll please---sex.
So men apparently spend almost all of their money on porn and sex (and maybe meat?) That's a lot of money to, what did you say, "walk out the door?"
Oh, but wait:
Shall we tackle illicit drug consumption? How about weapons? Hint: these things might also be cutting your life 7 years short, so pay attention!
and I know I shouldn't but:
Women have always been protected with the blood of men and have drawn benefit from men's sweat.
See the thing is if men are protecting women from other men (which was universally the case up until recently) then it sort of neutralizes your point. Wouldn't it just be better for communities to stop being land grabbing, greedy, violent folk so that men don't have to shed blood in the first place?
And it's women's toil and sweat that men have benefited from as well. Your cute little numbers above don't include all the unpaid labor that women do including taking care of children, elders and aged spouses. Instead, you'd begrudge a woman a handbag or a pair of shoes.
@CaroJ
LOL, Being told I am making up stats by a feminist is like a peace lecture from George Bush.
And what is a troll here, anyway? Anyone who disagrees?
Never mind, I know the answer to that one. And don't worry, I am sure someone will come along and delete all the bad, bad men so you won't be offended by them having their own ideas. This place does it all the time.
I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but I have a few minutes to waste.
Let's see... one common definition of troll is someone who posts inflammatory comments on a board. You know... kind of like an admitted MRA spouting phony stats on a feminist website. And if you want to prove you didn't make up your stats, we'll need a few citations, please.
One last thing... I wouldn't throw stones at women not wanting to be offended by bad,bad men having ideas of their own. Turn that around and you have exactly the reaction of the "bad, bad men" to feminist ideals for the past few decades.
Last time I checked, human civilization does not exist without women. That's a pretty big accomplishment...