"A pregnant woman was forced to lie and promise supermarket staff she would not eat a certain type of cheese before they would sell it to her.
Janet Lehain asked for some Canadian Cheddar while she was shopping at Sainsbury's.
But the member of staff serving her on the deli counter said she could not have it because it was made from unpasteurised milk."
Even though the supermarket, Sainsbury's, has admitted they 'got it wrong' and it's not unpasteurised milk that pregnant women are advised to avoid eating, so what? This seems another attempt to police the actions of women because of the status of their wombs. Lehain wrote a letter of complaint, though, in which she states:
'What followed was the most patronising encounter I have had the misfortune of experiencing in a long time and made worse by the fact it was entirely unexpected given the seemingly simple task.
'The member of staff told me how lucky my generation of pregnant women are to have such information available to them because this was not the case "in her day".
'I could only respond by saying that I thought pregnant women in the past were probably a whole lot less stressed and guilt-ridden as a result.'
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Sounds like they were simply trying to limit liability -- the same reason a bar is unlikely to sell alcohol to a pregnant woman. It has less to do with policing her actions than with not being sued.
kbz
I know this article was about an incident in the United Kingdom, and I have no idea how the laws are different there, but in the United States, it's illegal for a bar to refuse to sell alcohol to a pregnant woman, or even to mention that alcohol has possible damaging effects on a fetus.
While the first part of your comment is true, that bars cannot legally refuse alcohol to pregnant women only because they are pregnant, it's not true that they can't mention fetal alcohol syndrome or other damaging effects on the fetus.
"Most bars and restaurants that serve alcohol have signs posted which advise women that they should avoid drinking due to risk of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. If a pregnant woman should order a drink, it is likely that the bartender will inform her of the risk and, at some bars or restaurants, a pregnant woman may be required to sign a waiver before being served alcohol. All of these preventative steps are taken to provide bars or restaurants with legal protection in this type of situation."
From:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/553331/can_bars_legally_serve_alcohol_to_pregnant.html?cat=52
Interesting, I'd never heard that. I was always trained that the only legal way bars could discourage pregnant women from drinking were the surgeon general's warning signs, but I've never actually witnessed a situation where a visibly pregnant woman was ordering alcohol.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/553331/can_bars_legally_serve_alcohol_to_pregnant.html?cat=52
Thank you for posting that link, but I have to question the validity of the content. Not only does the author clearly state their opinion on the matter, ("the sad truth is that
others put their own wants before their health of their child.") instead of remaining objective, but there are other glaring mistakes like "What can a pregnant woman due if...". Not that I want to be snotty about grammar or anything, but the article just does not seem professional or well thought out.
However, I haven't yet found any information on the legalities of serving a pregnant woman and I'm very interested so if someone happens to know the answer and where to find it, that would be greatly appreciated.
also, bartenders have the right to refuse service to anyone.
To re-post what I said below: The right to refuse service to anyone has limits, based on anti-discrimination laws, which refusing to sell a certain product to a certain person because she's pregnant would fall under.
The latter part is certainly false, there's a freedom of speech protection to the bartender advising a pregnant woman of the health consequences of alcohol. As to the former, while its colloquially maintained that a bartender can't refuse to serve a pregnant woman, that's not the case.
A private establishment can set its own rules, and while it can't discriminate, it certainly can't be forced to incur legal liability by serving a pregnant woman alcohol...if not by her (because the bar "allowed" her to drink) then by her child once its of age to assert its own legal rights...(weirder things have happened, a woman is suing a bar locally because she hit her head after they *allowed* her to dance on a bar top).
If the child wants to sue anybody he/she should sue mom because she choose to drink knowing what the risks were. Suiing the bar like they should have policed her is wrong-it isn't their fault she drank.
Pregnant women have it hader because our adult decisions will have lasting effects postive or negative on defenseless human beings (those fetuses harmed in the womb become babies, toddlers, children adults who remain harmed outside of it). I undersand where people get the righteousness from but seriously she could be planning to abort or be trying to self abort- you don't know and you should stay out of it even if you do. It's her fetus she may or may not harm put your energy into reporting abuse against born children.
I'm not a legal scholar; I have, however been trained as an alcohol server by a few different independent establishments/programs. It is discriminatory and illegal to refuse service to a pregnant woman, and one can be sued for refusing service (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/553331/can_bars_legally_serve_alcohol_to_pregnant.html?cat=52). There are reasons one can refuse service (e.g., s/he believes the person is intoxicated or underage); medical condition (including pregnancy) is not one of them. I'm right about this.
Another difference is that when you buy a beer at the bar, you're doing it to drink right there and then, so you are definitely exposing the fetus to a known risk.
When buying cheese at the supermarket, you could be buying it for someone else to eat. You could be buying it to eat after you give birth, or after you have an abortion. You could be buying a hunk of cheese but only intend to eat a small amount of it yourself. Even if non-pasteurized cheese were proven to be harmful to babies, there's no reason that pregnant women shouldn't have the right to buy whatever they want in the grocery store!
Except that they DID sell it to her once she promised not to eat it herself. They were factually wrong in this instance, but I wouldn't be surprised by something like this happening in the U.S. since you can sued for anything (except being rude).
This kind of paternalist crap drives me crazy.
This isnt paternalist. It isnt sexist either. The grocery staff was simply misinformed.
I may be wrong, but alot of places do have the right to refuse service to anyone, which would include selling cigarettes and serving alcohol to pregnant women.
Its kind of like when doctors will not prescribe a certain medicine because the patient is pregnant, no?
Um, actually NO. A grocery cashier is not a doctor and does not have the right to make calls on what someone is and is not allowed to purchase or consume. You don't have to have a fucking prescription to buy cheese.
It doesn't matter if they were misinformed or completely correct regarding the type of milk. They have no authority to make health or diet related decisions for her. Policing her actions is not their job. Arguing that food servers should be able to arbitrarily decide who's allowed to buy and eat what is ludicrous. Why don't we also let them decide if someone's too obese to buy junk food? Oh, and meat is dangerous to everyone if it's not handled and cooked properly, so if someone doesn't seem up to it, no meat for them. It's for their own good.
And yes, thinking that you can tell a pregnant woman what to do because she's pregnant and your opinion on how to have a healthy pregnancy is better than her own is absolutely paternalist and sexist. Like Johanna said below, being pregnant doesn't make your body public property.
I suppose I was wrong about the refusing service rights- but still- this is not against women in any way. I was commenting on the irrelevance of this to the purpose of this website.
Why can't this employee simply be wrong? So the employee erred on the side of both cheese and whether or not someone's pregnancy was his business. Doesn't that just make him a) cheese-ignorant and b) one of those annoying busybodies who think everyone else's business is their business?
Come on, you guys. There's no evidence to say that this was from sexism and not stupidity. This is all just jumping to conclusions. Cheddar cheese is so freakin' widespread, the person must have been high and paranoid to think that its dangerous to one's health.
Supposing the same annoying and cheese-uneducated employee had encountered a very frail and elderly person on oxygen trying to buy the same cheese, and subsequently, from both their ignorance and ability to be irritating, had refused to sell the elderly person the cheese on the grounds that they were sick enough. Would that make them geria-phobes or whatever? Or would it just make them annoying and ignorant of cheese?
Whether or not this is "sexist" per se, it is a women's rights issue. Maybe this person would do the same thing if men could get pregnant, but this still is an issue that affects human beings' (and specifically women's) autonomy. And yes, it would be geria-phobic to deny an old person on an oxygen tank cheese (I think cigarettes might have been a better example). It's an individual's right, always, to make decisions for themselves (at least once they've reached a certain age).
You do realize that a lot of the time, there's no evidence that something is sexist or racist or whathaveyou-ist except for the very fact that it happened. Most people who do something sexist aren't as openly and explicitly misogynist as the anonymous trolls who populate the anti-feminist mailbag. They're acting on beliefs fed to them by society that certain things are true - such as the idea that pregnant women are public domain for policing.
I wonder what would happen if a jaundice man tried to buy hard alcohol. Would he be questioned? Drinking with a serious kidney problem could actually be more damaging than a pregnant woman eating some brie (which is an ill-advised cheese). I agree that it is a women's issue because so many people feel the need to patronize us about what to do with our body's on the daily. We should stuff it into some Spanx, we should wear flats because heels are hard on our feet/we should wear heels because they tone the legs and make us look leaner, and we should definitely eat like an obsessive nutritionist when pregnant and breast feeding (because we would be completely inhumane if we decided to not subject our bodies to the intense sucking and deflation of breast feeding).
Now that being said: Will I eat healthy if I decide to have a baby? Yes, and I'm proud to have a personal choice and not having a total stranger "schooling" me.
The right to refuse service to anyone has limits, based on anti-discrimination laws, which refusing to sell a certain product to a certain person because she's pregnant would fall under. And, like TroubleBaby said, cashiers aren't doctors.
Why do you think amusement parks keep visibly pregnant women from amusement park rides? Because they're meanies? Or sexist? Or patronizing? Its a legal liability issue.
You can't discriminate in service, but neither can you force a private establishment to incur liability. So unless you sign a waiver right then & there, its not actually discrimination...And since there'a a 3rd party involved--the unborn child--its not clear that an expectant mother could sign away the rights of the child.
"And since there'a a 3rd party involved--the unborn child--its not clear that an expectant mother could sign away the rights of the child."
Really?
I agree that's it's not necessarily sexist, but how is it not paternalistic*? Are you thinking patriarchal?
*the policy or practice on the part of people in positions of authority of restricting the freedom and responsibilities of those subordinate to them in the subordinates' supposed best interest
I agree that's it's not necessarily sexist, but how is it not paternalistic*? Are you thinking patriarchal?
*the policy or practice on the part of people in positions of authority of restricting the freedom and responsibilities of those subordinate to them in the subordinates' supposed best interest
Further evidence that once you get pregnant, everyone considers your body public property. I hope they have a full-on pregnant lady boycott.
I guess everyone considers us public property unless it involves giving up a seat on the train, then people learn to mind their business REAL fast
While I agree that she should be able to use unpasteurized milk if she wants - there are definite risks.
"Pregnant women run a serious risk of becoming ill from the bacteria Listeria which can cause miscarriage, fetal death or illness or death of a newborn. If you are pregnant, consuming raw milk - or foods made from raw milk, such as Mexican-style cheese like Queso Blanco or Queso Fresco - can harm your baby even if you don't feel sick."
http://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/ucm079516.htm
I only recently learned that pregnant women should eat raw eggs or soft cheese. Sort of shocked me and chalked one more up for not having babies.
There are things that pregnant women KNOW are harmful, like smoking and drinking.
I think that it probably doesn't hurt (and yes, limits liability) if you point out to a pregnant customer if the product she is asking for is harmful because it's a fresh-water fish (mercury), it's got unpasteurized milk or raw egg in it (salmonella/other bacteria). A woman may not know that Rainbow Trout is freshwater. But when she nods thanks you and then asks for it again, you STFU and give her the product because you don't know if it's for her anyway.
Fresh water fish? I thought it was Tuna you had to avoid... shows how much I know.
I think that women should be left alone and allowed to make the decisions that they think are best for their children. Doctors do a good enough job informing pregnant women about what the risks are for eating certain food during pregnancy. Women do not need random people in the grocery store to tell them what they can and cannot do
If we had universal health care in this country and every pregnant woman was able to go to a doctor regularly, I would completely agree with you. But I think that there are a lot more pregnant women than we realize who only know that the Big Three (drinking, smoking, drugs) are harmful but don't really know the rest because they can't afford their prenatal visits.
However, this incident happened in a country *with* health care, not the US. And I still don't want grocery store clerks advising me on health care--they're not qualified.
Very true. But like I said in my earlier post, I don't think it hurts anything to point out if a product contains something harmful--a pregnant woman might not know that the mousse contains raw eggs or the cheese contains unpasteurized milk or that a particular kind of fish is freshwater. But you shouldn't deny sale.
There are definite risks to smoking and eating too much. Does this cashier refuse to sell cigarettes, potato chips, and Coke as well? Last I checked, competent adults were allowed to make their own choices, even if those choices weren't "the best".
And yes, pregnant women are tending a entity that cannot make choices for itself. But so are parents who feed their kids Ding Dongs and smoke around them.
The majority of cheddar contain pasteurised milk, which is probably where the mistake was made. The official advice on cheese containing unpasteurised milk (including cheddar, although you have to search for that) is that it shouldn't be consumed by children, pregnant women or people with a weak immune system. This has been printed on all the cheese containing unpasteurised milk I have bought recently. I can therefore can see why the person behind the deli counter mentioned it, however going so far as to extract a promise seems extreme. How she was going to use the cheese was not known and a simple warning should have sufficed in my opinion.
Personally I do think it is quite a big issue that the person behind the cheese counter got it wrong. Most commercial cheddar is made from pasteurised milk, while many soft cheeses such as Brie aren't. If you are going to give health advice you should get it right. You hope that the deli counter running has had minimum training in the products that they sell and Sainsbury's fell down here as well.
Oh I don't know if this is a purposeful invasion of a woman's pregnant body as much as someone tyring to offer advice, albeit in an extreme and perhaps inappropriate manner. As a pregnant woman ready to deliver my second child I imagine I would be pretty appreciative of another woman- especially when the article implies an older woman, takes the time to point out that the cheese I want to buy is made from unpasteurized milk. Wheather or not you want to eat "soft" cheese or even a harder cheese like cheddar that is made from unpasteurized milk is your own decision. At least for me, when I'm hurrying through the store frantically trying to buy cheese with a two year old on the verge of a meltdown, I can see myself just grabbing the cheese and heading for the line. But believe it or not, cheese is a concern for many pregnant women. Listeria however rare, and is not very harmful to the pregnant woman BUT it can be fatal to the fetus. I would like to pose that instead of jumping to conclusions or assumptions that the cheese was perhaps to be eaten after an abortion or that the woman at the counter alerted the customer with the sole intention of invading the pregnant woman's body or denying her right to buy cheese, perhaps it was just her way of alerting someone as to the product they wanted to buy. I imagine if I was the woman behind the counter I would have alerted the customer, as I cannot live as a potential bystander. I would have taken the chance that I would offend the person and that they would have reacted they way they did than stand by as a potential bystander to a potential disaster. Furhter, if I was the customer, I would have DEFINITELY appreciated the heads up. Even if I was going home to have a bunch of cheese after an abortion, there aren't enough people willing to stand up for what they think is right- alerting someone of a potential danger. What they then do with that info is their decision, but again, at least it would be off my back- especially as the salesperson/expert behind the counter.
FDA recommendations (or their equivalents elsewhere), while they have some base in studies, deserve a healthy level of skepticism in their own right.
Remember that the FDA advises everyone against eating raw milk products or foods containing raw egg, and the matter has been subject to legal scrutiny in many places.
For my own part, growing up on a small dairy farm, I primarily drank raw milk as a child. Not only did the milk never make me sick, I was rarely sick at all, something I attribute, at least in part, to raw milk.
I can see the FDA's reasoning in asking people to think about it, and their reasoning in regulating raw milk products, especially were it from the megafarms where they can barely keep their stock healthy. However, The concerns about raw milk are no more worrying than those about the hormones and antibiotics present in milk from cows shot up and fed with the stuff. This amounts to another way in which legislation tends to support large factory farms instead of small producers.