My boyfriend, who identifies as a feminist, paid a prostituted woman in a ‘massage parlour’ for a hand job on Friday, after being pressured to participate by a male colleague who he was desperate to impress.
He doesn’t even like massages.
I’m totally devastated on two fronts. Firstly, I just finished a postgraduate thesis on feminism and the sex industry. I won’t go into the details of the topic, but the more I researched, the more I came to intuitively feel that the liberal pro-prostitution position and its murky distinctions between force and freedom were problematic. By the end of the process, I became more and more sympathetic to radical feminists like Sheila Jeffreys (whose recent book The Industrial Vagina is a must-read for all feminists). Anyway, I’m too fragile to go into whether people here agree or disagree, so please respect that, I just can’t believe that after months of participating in discussions about my research and reading my paper, he could go out and endorse the industry which, particularly in this region of SE Asia, is prone to the exploitation of women. He said no when I asked him whether he asked her name, how old she was, or where she was from. He said that he didn’t make a mental connection between the massage parlour with other forms of prostitution at the time, as if he was of a different mind. He says that now, after this experience, he identifies with feminism more than he ever did before. Cold comfort.
Secondly, I’m naturally devastated about being betrayed by the person who gets me more than anyone in this world and is my best friend. I’m angry about losing the intimacy, the safe spaces we created, and innocence we shared in our love. I’ve had relationships before – this one was the real deal. Soul mates. Life had never been better. His desperate insecurity to please people had only ever existed outside the house and with minor consequences – petty lies, pointless exaggerations, and stupid displays of bravado at parties. He was so desperate to make the colleague his friend last Friday evening that if it hadn’t have been paid sex, he would have gone along with drugs, cliff jumping – basically whatever was on the table. He identified that he went into it with a combination of drunkenness, extreme arrogance and extreme insecurity. He said it felt like an out-of-body experience. After confessing, he instantly hit rock-bottom and showed deep remorse. After four days of what felt nothing short of mutual grieving, he went to a counselling session at my request because he felt nauseous looking at his penis and was shaking, feeling dirty about his body. I’ve been at a hotel but have starting spending more time back at the house. I want to see if he can transform the true courage and heroism he has long shown inside the house to the outside world, particularly in social situations. I also expect a culture of total honesty and openness. Only then would I even consider staying.
We are living in a foreign country, away from family and my few feminist friends here are in the high-heeled, professional liberal set. They don’t appreciate or understand me on this issue, and when I talk about it they keep saying things like “boys will be boys” or “it’s just a little mistake” (which makes my blood boil as there’s a difference between a mistake and an action that requires 10 decisions). My dad (who I was a rock to after my mum left him for another man) sent me an email basically said that I should get over it soon as there’s nothing worse than a woman going on and on and on about one mistake. Charming. I will go to a counsellor in the next few days but I feel so angry that she or he will not truly understand the feminist dimension to my grief. Ironically, it’s only my boyfriend that gets it and that’s just like salt in the wound.
How do you think I can deal with the loneliness I feel in dealing with this uniquely feminist aspect of my grief?
p.s I categorised this as random as I didn't see a suitable category related to relationships or paid sex.
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Wow. That's a lot to work out in a relationship.
First, you have an SO who feels the need to please and go along with others for acceptance. This is a problem that he needs to deal with especially since it brings me to my next point.
Two, his need to please and go along with others far outweighed his consideration for YOU and your relationship. He knew all about you, your work, and your feelings about sex work. He knew how it would make you feel to go to a massage parlor and be masturbated until he orgasmed. He did it anyway because he wanted to impress someone who wasn't even a friend. When he weighed your feelings against his need to gain acceptance from others, you and your relationship lost.
THAT is what needs to be fixed and only he can do it. It sounds as though he needs some counseling in order to really determine what his priorities and responsibilities are.
You can help him as much as you can through your couple's therapy, but it looks like he'll have to do 99% of the work, himself. I guess it remains to be seen if he will. Until then, you'll have to decide if you want to be with a man who will put your feelings and the relationship you two have second to impressing and pleasing others. You said it's only been minor until now, but it's always been there. Unless he works on it, it will always be there, still and it won't always stay "minor."
My advice is to make him realize that he has put you, your feelings, your relationship with him, and even his own values and beliefs behind pleasing random people who won't matter much in the long run. Then, hopefully, he'll see the need to work on himself.
Good luck.
Thanks ElleStar, and so many others here for your great advice... So helpful xx
Wow. I don't know what's worse, that he betrayed you or that he betrayed you because he wanted to please someone else/fit in. What are the ends to the legnths he would go to distort who he is to be who they want him to be? That's something he should look into regardless of his relationship stauts because people get into lots of trouble, drama and mayhem by doing that.
I am so sorry this happened.
As far as feminism goes, as far as I know and as you've already stated, feminists are torn on the issue of prostitution. Many see it as a very feminsits thing. Women DO desire sex and some WOULD like/love to get paid to do have sex or perform sexual acts. Many of them see their clients as human beings but as customers. You don't have ncie lengthy conversations with customers. You exchange hellos, find out what they want, provide it, get paid and move on.
I'm really sorry. I get nervous over the possibility of my boyfriend going to a strip club with friends in order to keep their companionship, so I can only imagine how you are feeling.
My only advice would be to try to talk it over with him when you can, in a non-accusatory manner. You could also try having a foam-sword or bat fight, or try to have a really big cry with him. Whatever you think will work for you, as people handle situations differently. But your feelings are valid and will be valid as long as you feel them. I wish I could be of more help to you. I wish you luck!
wow oh wow. i can't believe the responses you're getting AND your SO's actions in the first place. what a whole lot of stuff to deal with. i'm sorry this all happened.
it's outright betrayal. some people are able to confidently overcome this and continue a relationship while others are not. NEITHER staying nor going is the 'right' answer for all situations. try to figure out what the right answer is for you. if you can get past it and believe that he will not leave you feeling this way again, good. if not, OK, GOOD move on. but what's really most important is what your ethical lines are and feeling OK about them, knowing you have a right to believe what you do, and being supported. It's not Ok for people to be making you feel bad for reacting to what HE did.
XOXO
I would feel deeply betrayed if this happened to me. I would also wonder why my partner seems to be so influenced by those around them. This seems like a case of succumbing to peer pressure, but it would also make me question if this person is truly feminist...or if they were just trying to impress me by telling me they were feminist. I'd be devastated, but I'm also one of those people who don't deal well with cheating...I'm one of those people for whom things won't be the same after a betrayal...in the past I've chosen to break it off with the person and never see them again. I don't know, that's just me.
I agree that the main offense he committed is being unable to assert who he truly is and trying to please everyone by altering who he is to suit the taste of whomever he is with. Being like that will create major problems in every area of your life, used car salesmen being the possible lone exception. Sort of like the old saying goes: 'If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything". In this case the casualties were your feelings and your relationship. I also have an issue with people who claim to come clean because of a guilty conscience, when all they've really done is transfer all those yucky, disgusted feelings from themselves and loaded them onto you. I know that generally speaking most of us would 'want to know', but there is also something to be said for sucking up the guilt and carrying it around on your shoulders exclusively as punishment for your transgressions rather than letting them be someone else's burden to bear. So now you both feel like shit instead of just him. Is that even an improvement? I had a married mother of two friend who felt soooo guilty about an affair and I did tell her that her punishment was living with it and that it was unfair to ruin his world just to diffuse some of her heavy burden. He would have been wounded irreparably and since she didn't want a divorce what good would that do?
No one his age should be trying to morph into whomever they are with. He may not be evil but he is most certainly of a weak and fragile character and that doesn't get fixed by crying and begging. I would suggest a real break. I don't even think couples' counseling is needed as much as individual counseling for him because what he did was way beyond fucked up.
And your so-called liberal friends who said "boys will be boys"? Take them to Richmond, CA and let them tell that to the 15 year old gang rape victim.
I am sorry this happened, though. It sucks, but please try to resist the strong temptation to subtly ameliorate or euphemize what he did by focusing on heavy handed peers or alcohol use.
I agree with this wholeheartedly and am especially grateful that you brought up the issues of telling the other person just to ease their own guilt about what they did. The biggest issue with what he did was the fact that even though he knew your stance on what you believed, he still let his friend's view of him take precedence over yours. The biggest issue should not at all be the fact that he cheated (at least I think so because unlike the majority of people, I do not think it is the end-all factor of relationships).
He needs to know that he betrayed you by deliberately disregarding your feelings about an issue and so maybe a break is needed. But I don't think your relationship is unfix-able just because of that. Remember that we are all human and even those of us who try to be the best we can be (or the best feminists that we can be) that we ALL mess up and we ALL have faults. Try and work it out because just throwing it away may be worse than the alternatives.
Thank you Crumpet, there's a lot in that.
I can't begin tell you how much his weakness of character concerns me, not just for my sake but for his own well-being.
Maybe this depends on the relationship, but carrying around regret and keeping transgressions secret is something that I wouldn't widely recommend. I feel that that creates a space where things can be kept secret from one's partner, and there's always room for more things in that space once it's established.
I can forgive and work through transgressions shared with me by a partner, even if it hurts terribly and for a long time. Finding out that something was kept from me is a relationship ender for me, since there's no way to know how many other things might have been kept from me. For some couples emotional trauma may take precedence and some people may prefer not to know, but for others that's an irreparable breach of trust.
Sorry to get on your case about that, but reality management (meaning "what he/she doesn't know won't hurt him/her") is a hard limit for me, and perhaps others.
Your feminist boyfriend is not feminist and I hope not your boyfriend for long.
"He says that now, after this experience, he identifies with feminism more than he ever did before."
Could it be more obvious that he is telling you whatever bullshit he thinks you want to hear?
Kick him to the curb already.
Watch it.....I've gotten some people pretty upset by my no bullshit take on these things, lol. Sometimes people only want you to say what makes them feel better whether it is honest or not.
It's OK - I can take it ;) That's the kind of honesty I've been missing actually...
SS - I just trusted that he was a 'feminist', not just by calling himself that, but for all of his contributions to discussions and community actions. What can I say? It's just one more way I've been betrayed. I can accept the likelihood he was people-pleasing me on this all along, but on some level he must have believed it to contribute the way he did. As I said before, cold comfort.
The fact that he told you instead of lying and not telling you has to mean something. I wouldn't write him off so quickly as I wouldn't gain his trust back so quickly. If you want to, make him work hard to gain your trust back. If he complains, you know he isn't 100% real. If he is compliant every step of the way, you know he really is a feminist. It's just a matter of whether you want to stay with him or not. You know him better than anyone on here does.
I wonder though, what kind of "work" would he have to do to gain her trust again? I mean, his cheating (from the post it seemed clear to me that they define this as cheating) and betraying what is supposedly their common belief is a very concrete action proving that 1- he is not committed to the relationship in the way she needs him to be 2- he is not the kind of feminist she is, if at all
What kind of action can he take to prove that the above is not actually true? And even if he does take those actions, does that mean he is not actually "faking" it? It's much easier to fake regret than to fake a betrayal. Besides, how will she know that in the process of "gaining her trust back" he is not continuing to do things she considers unacceptable in their relationship, just without telling her?
While I'm certainly not defending his behavior, I highly doubt he's just telling her what she wants to hear. If so, he'd have to be going to really ridiculous lengths to fake it. He's probably going through absolute hell, too. And while that isn't a good situation for a healthy relationship, I think you're being really unfair.
Yeah I'm being unfair to this guy, because I don't know him and what's really in his mind. But so what?
Either this guy is
a) lying and sall gets hurt
b) just flaky, and sall gets hurt
Sall, either way this guy hurts you and no one deserves to be treated that way. You didn't get into a lot about what's good about this guy, maybe he has qualities that somewhat balance his actions here and warrant you giving him a chance.
My gut feeling is NO, mostly from that "the handjob made more feminist" comment. It just reeks of excuse making and an inability to be honest with himself. And maybe that's unfair but fuck it.
I do want to apologize to sall for my blunt and insensitive tone. I thought about your comment a lot after typing that yesterday. I'm really sorry you're hurting and I hope you find your way through this tough time. Stick to your principles and you will feel good about yourself when the smoke clears.
Hi Sloppy,
I didn't phrase "the handjob made more feminist" comment well at all... Our discussions in the aftermath have resulted in him understanding feminism more than he did before. For example, I just took for granted that knew what I meant by privilege. When I went looking for gaps in his 'feminism' in the last couple of day I realised that he didn't really get it. He burst into tears when I explained it to him and he finally clicked.
He had just been so good at genuinely contributing to discussions on sometimes quite advanced concepts (mainly my thoughts and ramblings after class) without me ever realising that we'd skipped over the 101. I should never have assumed that he hadn't internalised the basics, nor should I have felt 'safe' from being hurt because he contributed well to feminist discussions and was active in helping out with campaigns etc.
If I can inspire one Feministing reader with a 'feminist' SO to go back and check up on their SO's basic knowledge and not just assume that they are up to speed, I'll be happy.
His lack of 101 knowledge in no way excuses the fact that he betrayed me. That's a different issue. And yes, for the record, he does have many qualities (for one, he is far more generous than I could ever be). I just didn't feel like going into what I love about him in detail, but I can see that it would have helped... Thanks too for being blunt. As mentioned before, I appreciate your honesty.
As far as salvaging (or not) the relationship goes, I'd worry more about the fact that he cheated on you just to try and impress a friend than that he did so in a non-feminist friendly way.
It means that his priorities were (in order):
1. Impress new friend.
2. Relationship with soulmate.
1. Impress new friend.
1a. handjob
2. Relationship with soulmate.
/fixed
BTW, that's not meant to just be a joke.
If he was only doing this to impress the boys at the office he could have paid the money and gone into the room and not got the damn handjob. Heck, depending on how open the sex worker was to discussing it this could have been an opportunity for him to ask her some questions about how she got into this, what her situation was, if she was coerced, you know treat her like a human being and ask some real feminist questions. (And again I stress if she's open to this. I'm sure this might be a very uncomfortable situation for a sex worker to be asked these questions by a would-be john.)
But he didn't do that. Figuratively jerking off his coworkers and literally getting jerked off himself took priority over his relationship with you.
See my response above. Cheating is not the worst thing you can do to someone in my opinion because cheating could have nothing to do with intimacy at all and could just be physical. It can be with no intent to hurt someone, with no intent of your relationship being crappy so you look for something else, or any of the other reasons that people put on it out of anger. Yes, it still hurts people - I am not stating that it doesn't. But I just think that like a lot of things, the idea of how bad cheating really is is a socially constructed idea.
I think it is more hurtful that he knew how she felt about certain issues and how much it would hurt her if he participated in what she saw as the problem. Even in OP's post she stated that was the bigger issue to her.
And just throwing this out there - had this been a male feminist coming in with the same issue, would we have been so quick to be like "oh he is faking his remorse drop him, break it off" etc...
I'm terribly sorry. I deeply feel for you. I have no words to adequately describe the feeling of a betrayal.
My opinion... I do not think it's something that you can or should easily get over/let go. He betrayed you, crossed a boundary that is extremely important in general, nevertheless to you and your work and supposedly him, and he did so all for the sake of impressing some random guy. I am for forgiveness and working things out, but all those factors combined don't look good. He didn't consider you, your beliefs, his supposed own beliefs, the sex worker as a person, the future of your relationship or any other consequence... all because he wanted to impress a stranger!
The consequences of him refusing to participate would have been trivial. In fact it likely would have led to him being more respected, by others and himself, because he'd be demonstrating that he lives authentically, independentally and with integrity. Being strong and true to yourself is an appealing quality (IMO essential).
A person who is willing to do anything to impress some random stranger, including betray his lover and his own moral stances, is *incredibly* weak and makes for an emotionally (if not physically) dangerous friend or lover. How can you trust him to make intelligent decisions? How can you trust him to be himself... and who the hell is he, anyway?
I forgave my SO for something I thought was deeply questionable, but he had to do a lot of work. We have a solid relationship now, but it is entirely situational dependent and most people would not have worked as hard as my SO. Again, the biggest concern I see is that you can't trust your SO to even know himself, let alone know him yourself or have any faith in the consistency of his character. He is apparently willing to do anything, including acting against his own beliefs and deeply hurting his lover, to impress a random guy (and this random guy is apparently impressed by prostitution??! Why does he want to impress people like this?)
Yeah, it really doesn't matter who he was trying to impress, especially since he was not willing to work to impress you.
He needs to take personal responsibility for what he did, and not highlight the fact that other people were pressuring him into doing so.
It is kind of interesting in the abstract to think about the fact that these men were pressuring him into coercive sex with a woman, just as many men pressure women into coercive sex with themselves. However, this is more of an abstract starting point for thinking about how patriarchy affects men negatively.
It doesn't change the fact that he needs to take responsibility for what he did.
I agree that psychotherapy can probably help him understand that he can't hold other people responsible for his actions -- even if he has a desire to impress them. And it does seem like part of him sincerely regrets what happens and is emotionally shaken up. But things this extreme don't usually happen without a serious reason behind them, and if you're going to stay in the relationship, you need to make sure he is willing to stop blaming others for what happened, and work to overcome the reasons that he allowed it to happen. This is for your own sake, not just his.
Good luck.
What an awfully wide range of people we're calling feminist these days.
Absolutely true, aleks. It seems like to be a "feminist" all you have to say is that you have some vague feeling that maybe women are actual human beings. You don't have to act on those feelings. You don't have to define them concretely. You absolutely don't have to fight for them. Give me fewer people who self-identify as feminists if it means that the ones who do are actually willing to take the hard line and stand up for it--whether it's convenient for them or not.
Yes. This.
I know... I realised after that I should have written 'feminist' in the title to reflect how I feel about his worthiness to call himself that.
I'll say one more thing one this in relation to my local friends who identify as feminists.
Since moving here, I've felt very lonely in my beliefs. I live in a place where NGO advocacy campaigns have to basically be checked-over and demonstrations are illegal (except for in a park corner downtown that you have to book and be pre-approved for, register the name of each participant, and basically have speeches pre-approved word-for-word), and there's a fair bit of censorship.
In a place where you don't challenge authority, and authoritative institutions, feminism is very different to back home, and therefore feminists are very different. They are, as I mentioned, mostly very liberal, professional women.
Understand too that I respect that the vast majority of people aren't bursting for the freedom to demonstrate. There are some great campaigns going on (mainly for professional women, victims of domestic violence, domestic workers and women in poverty abroad) but it operates on a whole other interpretation and tolerance of patriarchy that doesn't gel with my somewhat radical ideology. It kills me, but as a foreigner (outsider) here for just a short period time I have no interest in rocking the boat.
My main goal here post-thesis was to start, in a casual way, conversations in the expat community that would challenge expat men into respecting women more but I'm *clearly* not doing so well there.
I actually have reverse experiences. I find that a lot of people actually have feminist values or ideas that relate to feminism but they do not want to call themselves feminists because they are "not that radical", they "don't hate men", they "don't think women should be better than men" etc...
It depends which group are considered the defining feminists. At Shapely Prose they think I'm a great feminist. At Feministing they think I'm something called an MRA. So am I a feminist? Depends what that means.
I'm sorry for being callous about this, but I don't see him contributing to some sex worker's bottom line as particularly heinous. I've known and respected too many women who do some sort of sex work. That he bought into or pretended to buy into your set of beliefs and morals and then broke all of those rules, that I see as a problem.
Further, what I'm seeing is that when he's with you in your home he is the person you want him to be. When he's with other people he'll try hard to be the person he thinks that other people want him to be. All of these desperate insecurities seem to be a bigger issue. Someone once pointed out that you need to watch the way your partner treats other people because they will likely treat you that way. If he routinely engages in petty lies and pointless exaggerations with others, what's to keep him from doing the same with you? Is he just pretending to be everything you want him to be in the home because that's what he thinks impresses you?
For me, those are already some dealbreaker qualities. His having gone and done something that he totally knew would devastate you is just above and beyond. Faking morals and beliefs to gain your affection, weak. I can't help thinking, what kind of freak doesn't like massages? Maybe you can resolve the hurt to your feminist beliefs, but that seems to be dwarfed by the rest of the ways that this guy appears to be poor relationship material.
I sincerely wish you good luck, and I hope that you make the decision that makes you happiest in the long run.
This is the kind of advice that OP needs, very articulate and addresses the greater issue at hand. Beautifully written, I had to say.
I appreciate the compliment. I feel so pretty now.
Thanks Sex Toy James, you've given me a lot to think about.
For the record, he can't stand massages as he's too ticklish...
If it makes you feel better, your "thank you" right there means a lot to me. I'm so glad that I could help in some way.
I've had experience with significant others whom I thought I could save/fix. I've learned that I can help someone through something, but I can't change the way that they think or feel.
Good luck.
Sorry, I can't let this one go. The problem with massage parlors is a separate problem from the ones that affect sex workers who are doing their work by choice. The problem with massage parlors is that they are very often involved with human trafficking, and given that "happy endings" are usually illegal, depending on the country, you have no way of verifying which is a "legitimate" business and which is keeping women as slaves. Please, for the love of god, read my article on this.
http://aletheia-in-the-shortwave.blogspot.com/2009/06/sex-tourism-in-thailand.html
I completely agree that the purchase of the woman's services is an important feminist concern, since, as the OP noted, the bf did not even know her name, let alone if she was underage, abused, forced into this, etc. The OP also notes problems with the "massage parlor" industry in the particular region where this took place. The "feminist" bf should have been concerned about this. Purchasing a sexual service from someone who is being FORCED to provide it is, basically, participating in a rape, even if you chose to not ask to remain ignorant of whether this is being forced or not.
I would always be suspicious of purchasing sex services in any sort of 'establishment.' Because that means there is always someone who essentially acts as a pimp, which is way to problematic. It's one thing if this was someone he knew was selling her services on her own, in her apartment or a hotel room or something like that. Then it would be possible to argue (although I know people who would disagree) that this was not an act fraught with deep humanitarian and, of course, feminist issues. But he had no idea if this woman was doing this willingly and a good reason to suspect she wasn't - did he care? doesn't seem like it.
Second thought: he is saying the experience has made him more feminist. does that mean that he can (hell, should!) repeat this experience to increase his feminism? more bj's from (possible) sex slaves = increased feminism. what a nice position.
as the OP noted, the bf did not even know her name, let alone if she was underage, abused, forced into this, etc.
The problem is, who is to say that she would have answered these questions had he asked them, much less answered them truthfully? Particularly if she WERE underage, abused, and/or forced into prostitution. I do agree, however, that the boyfriend did not seem particularly concerned.
I completely agree, which is the source for the issues I have with these sorts of establishments. But the fact that he had absolutely 0 information about this girl, and didn't care to even try and find out anything shows the true nature of his cocnerns
I would have replied sooner but your article is long. You definitely have good reasons that one should think twice before supporting the Thai sex industry. Your article was a little confused, and you did tie a lot of things together. I agree that things should change. My only problem is the question of what one should do? I don't like the idea of boycotting the whole industry just because part of it is exploiting people. Under that same philosophy I'd never eat at restaurants again because many of them hire illegal immigrants and underpay them or steal tips. I don't know which ones, but I wouldn't condemn their entire industry. I wouldn't want to tell people that they have to go do some other demeaning job for less money when they find that sex work is more appealing.
I don't feel that the outrage is constructive. Where's the link to the fair sex trade rating industry? If I were a sex tourist, how would I be able to find the places where the women are there of their own free will and always insist on condoms? The sex trade can't be morally outraged away, but can it be reformed through better transparency? There are too many people who depend on it for their livelihood to try to just shut it down. If someone were going to go patronize it they'd likely ignore your outrage, but would they ignore you if you showed them how to be a better safer consumer?
I understand your concern, and I'd support a practical solution. Honestly I can't really pretend that I'd have any impact. While I support people's rights to sex work, I don't actually support it in a contributing to the bottom line kind of way. When I go get a massage I'd like to know that there are no happy endings, since I want someone who was hired for their massaging skills. I don't even do strip clubs or lap dances. So I can't really help impact that industry with my dollars. I have contributed to the economic well-being of other Thai industries though, if that helps.
Well, this is emphatically not just a problem in Thailand, James. Have you seen any of the posts on here about Girls Educational and Mentoring Services, founded by Rachel Lloyd for survivors of commercial sexual exploitation in the United States? Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fX6EaHuRCg
The average age of entry into prostitution in the United States is THIRTEEN.
I agree that transparency would make things easier and I don't think sex workers should be criminalized, but I really don't think that I have any obligation to provide anyone with a list of "safe" sex work establishments. I think anyone with a moticum of intelligence and human empathy should be able to distinguish between a woman who is being coerced into smiling over her terror, for you, and a woman who wants to smile.
Also, my article is confused? What? Outrage isn't constructive? I was making money from this website: www.seekingarrangement.com to pay for health care, and I was violently raped by a criminal psychologist for the FBI, and I have no legal recourse because of MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. How dare you tell me my outrage is not constructive.
Well, this is emphatically not just a problem in Thailand, James. Have you seen any of the posts on here about Girls Educational and Mentoring Services, founded by Rachel Lloyd for survivors of commercial sexual exploitation in the United States? Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fX6EaHuRCg
The average age of entry into prostitution in the United States is THIRTEEN.
I agree that transparency would make things easier and I don't think sex workers should be criminalized, but I really don't think that I have any obligation to provide anyone with a list of "safe" sex work establishments. I think anyone with a moticum of intelligence and human empathy should be able to distinguish between a woman who is being coerced into smiling over her terror, for you, and a woman who wants to smile.
Also, my article is confused? What? Outrage isn't constructive? I was making money from this website: www.seekingarrangement.com to pay for health care, and I was violently raped by a criminal psychologist for the FBI, and I have no legal recourse because of MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. How dare you tell me my outrage is not constructive.
Clearly you and I come from different backgrounds and I clearly know nothing about you. I'm not trying to say that the world is fair and just and that you're just overreacting or crazy. Clearly I'm exposed to a very different side of the sex industry. I've met a lot of smart entrepreneurial women who chose to work in some aspect of the sex industry. I respect those women very much. On second thought I've met men who do sex work as well, so I wouldn't want to dis-include them. So clearly I'm viewing this from a different angle. I am aware and have been aware that there is child sex trade in the United States, and that is a terrible thing, but it doesn't make what others are doing wrong.
I don't think that you have an obligation to be a sex tourism travel agent in any way. I'm sorry, I was attempting to think constructively.
As for whether a woman is willing or coerced into the sex industry, I wouldn't trust my gut on that one. Just because someone comes to term with their life or has good customer service skills doesn't mean that they had all the choices that they should have had in getting into that job. I'm especially not trusting my judgment if there are language barriers.
I'd love to know all about your making money on SeekingArrangement.com and how that ties into your thoughts and feelings on this issue. I am truly interested.
As for your rape and being unable to seek justice, I'm not sure how that ties in, but I'm not going to even pretend to have had experiences relevant enough to even come close to understanding how you feel.
Your saying "How dare you..." really just makes me think that you're upset and not really clear on the argument that you're making. At least, you've lost me a little bit. I think that you're intelligent and have good points, I just wouldn't want them to get lost. I'm still unclear on how you think that outrage is constructive?
The average age of entry into prostitution in the United States is THIRTEEN.
Actually, it's not. That figure comes from a 2001 study at the University of Pennsylvania about women under the age of 18 who are prostitutes. I haven't seen any statistics concerning the percentage of child prostitutes who go on to become adult prostitutes, or the average age that adults enter prostitution.
For the most part, the feminists speaking out against sex trafficking don't seem to want a trafficking-free and coercion-free sex industry; they want to abolish prostitution full stop. Bear in mind that the movement against sex trafficking and forced prostitution has its roots in anti-porn feminism, with all that entails.
If you've looked at the history, it probably won't surprise you that said movement is quite happy to push for laws that actual sex workers say will endanger them. Nor should the actions of one Sheila Jeffreys, a white Australian feminist academic who uses the idea of privilege to raise her own views on prostitution above the actual experiences of sex workers, and who has managed to become the Australian government's main advisor on these matters.
(This is actually relatively mild stuff. During the feminist sex wars, the anti-porn feminist movement used violence and the threat of violence against women who had sexual preferences they disapproved of - mainly lesbian BDSMers. Not against men, just women, which is probably partly why it's so poorly documented.)
Thanks for the clarification and back story. I guess that I'm never going to make peace with the anti-porn anti-sex work crowd if they really want to try to eliminate those things. I don't like to speak in absolutes, but I'm fairly confident that there will always be sex workers. I find myself speaking out against people who feel that that choice of profession diminishes a woman, allowing her to be treated like an object or as being of lower status. Placing legal restrictions on sex work makes it easier for people to do that, and puts them in greater danger. I can't see supporting an impossible cause at the cost to the respect and well-being of women everywhere.
It's mind boggling that any open-minded individual could act against the lesbian BDSM community.
Thanks again.
I think the big transgression here is the cheating, not the specifically feminist issues. The truth is, feminism is mostly incompatible with professional career paths in the western world, and specifically in teh United States. The soul-sucking need to offer up your identity, body/health and principles to a professional career path is directly opposed to feminism, which should be inherently ideological (people who just like to wage Privilege wars notwithstanding). Your boyfriend betrayed you by getting a handjob from another woman, not by failing to be sufficiently feminist. In his internal life, in his private, non-professional life, he is the feminist he claims to be and you want him to be. But nobody in the professional world is themselves in the workplace, and teh things that professional culture compels from you is not a reflection on who you are, except at the broad level of being able to compartmentalize your real self from the things you have to do to get ahead at work.
It sounds like your boyfriend needs a new job/career path.
Are you saying that he should be held more accountable for infidelity than for visiting a sex worker? Are you aware that legally speaking, in this country, we are sending a huge amount of children under the age of 18 to prison for "solicitation of prostitution" even when they have been forced into sex work at gun point, and even when they are too young to legally consent to sex?
Are you kidding me? The johns who contribute to this cause, even if they don't directly pay for sex with a commercially sexually exploited youth, get off (pun intended) with a fine, maybe some community service, and then their records are expunged. In the meantime the 14 year old girl who was held at gunpoint in a home by a 30-yr old pimp is sent to prison.
Honestly, the massage parlor bit is the icing on the cake. The problem is that even if you remove the massage parlor (seriously, he couldn't just pay for a massage and say no thanks to the hand job?), then there's still the issue that he did this in order to make a new BFF. Like the OP said, he would have been up for anything that night to impress his new buddy. There's no reason why the nights activities couldn't have included beating up on some homeless, doing some smack, or posting naked pictures of their girlfriends up on Facebook.
Sticking with regular unfaithful SO, at least you have a grasp of what you might be in for. With old spineless here? The sky's the limit.
It's illuminating to read these comments because almost the same thing happened to me 15 years ago. My boyfriend at the time knew my views thoroughly. I'd discussed my opinion of lap dancing, specifically in view of the fact that many strippers were objecting to it but felt they had no choice because they faced dismissal without complying. He went ahead one day and got a lap dance at a local strip joint with his roommate, then told me about it, giggling as if he'd simply put a frog in my pocket. I broke up with him. Of course, his friends thought I was being much too ideologically rigid. It also hurt like hell. I felt like there was a gaping hole on one side of my body. However, reading this reminds me that he didn't value my opinions and emotions as much as he wanted to impress his roommate. It helps give me a reality check.
i also had a bf, who knew, that i dont like, when he stares at other girls on the street, when he is with me. so he did this only to piss me off. once he sent me before out of a bar, just to ogle at the gogo-girl on the table, dancing. when i returned after a couple of minutes waiting at the car, i found him looking at the girl... and he said it was initial, just to piss me off. don't worry, i have already left him...
I'm a little confused about why you were at a bar with a go-go dancer, someone whose job it is to attract attention, when you are hurt by him looking at other women.
They don’t appreciate or understand me on this issue, and when I talk about it they keep saying things like “boys will be boys” or “it’s just a little mistake” (which makes my blood boil as there’s a difference between a mistake and an action that requires 10 decisions). My dad (who I was a rock to after my mum left him for another man) sent me an email basically said that I should get over it soon as there’s nothing worse than a woman going on and on and on about one mistake. Charming.
Wow. I cannot believe this is the response you are getting from friends and family. They should be supporting you and letting you cry on their shoulders. It's okay to be angry. It's okay to be sad, and you don't have to just get over it and move on. I would be deeply hurt if I were in your situation. And you are hurting, understandably so! I cannot say what I would do in this situation, as I have not been cheated on. However, I have put up with other major problems in relationships where I looked the other way or tried to work it out and in the end I was the one who was "let go". So, I think, if he is truly, truly remorseful he should do everything in his power to fight for you and this relationship without excuses.
However, I know relationships are not black and white and taking a no bullshit stance can be unrealistic. On the other hand, I feel like if one party makes a mistake of this caliber then it is now in their hands to pick up the pieces if they really value you and the relationship. Otherwise, they may just be along for the ride.
I know you said you didn't really want to get into this but... just want to make sure you know that you're not the only one who would rather live in a society where we don't commodify sexual services (especially women's sexual services).
I agree with what a lot of other folks have said here:
1. your boyfriend was unfaithful to you, and that hurts no matter what.
2. he was unfaithful in a way that he knew would be particularly hurtful to you (with a sex worker).
3. he was unfaithful in a way that he knows you believe is not only hurtful to you personally, but to women in general.
4. he was unfaithful to you... to please someone else. He wasn't strong enough to say "No, I don't want to do this" or "No, I won't do this because it would hurt my partner."
It's up to you to decide whether these things are bad enough to give up on the guy... but honestly, it seems like you're pretty devastated about it and see it as a major betrayal. If he doesn't understand why it's a big deal to you, or if he's unwilling to make an absolute commitment to stand by you even when pressured to do something that would hurt you, then he's not worth keeping around!
Good luck, and stay strong!
As a male, your boyfriend's "pressured to participate" excuse sounds like total bull-shit. I've known several guys who have done things like this but very few are honest enough to admit the real reasons why they did it, especially to their partner. The real reasons were often things like: I was curious, I didn't think it was such a bad thing because "it was just a massage", I was a little drunk and it felt good at the time, I never thought I would get caught, etc...
From what you wrote it really sounds like your boyfriend is trying to please you too, so he tells you what you want to hear, not what he really thinks and feels. If you want to save this relationship, I think you are going to have to talk with your guy to find out what is really going on inside his head, and try to find a way to do this without being judgemental. Every partner has their own personal collection of of quirks and flaws, yet you have find a way to truly love them for all that they are, and hope they do the same for you.
I agree with the first part of this comment. The whole "I was pressured" line sounds like just that. I would wager that in the very least he got the hand job in part because he wanted to. Maybe there was the whole "man culture" at work here, but I'm betting he made the choice to get the "happy ending" because he himself wanted to. I learned from a bad experience with my ex who deceived me for years that if someone changes around different people to the level that they act "fake" or lie or drastically misrepresent themselves or values that they say they have or if what is seen at home doesn't match what is seen in public then the partner of these people is not getting the "real" picture either. My ex used to lie about things like education level, income, height, etc. to others he wanted to impress and called himself a "social chameleon". I only learned after years that he misrepresented himself and manipulated me also. Also, that whole "this made me a better feminist" line also sounds exactly like something my ex would have said. He used his bad choices that hurt me to find something "positive" to try to put a better slant on it and make it seem like it was a "life altering" experience and he was going to change and become better. I know I can't judge your bf on my ex, the similarities are just interesting. At least you bf told you though. Mine never would have. I think that telling someone if you cheat or betray is a good thing, not a selfish thing, because it is a sign of feeling guilty. Some people honestly don't feel guilty. I also think that a partnership has to be open and honest to move forward, and coming forward about a transgression means it is less likely to happen again.
I support keeping prostitution legal and regulated, but I too would be horrified if my fiance frequented a prostitute, even if there was no risk of disease. Regardless of one's feminist status or opinion of cheating, that is a betrayal of the expectations of a committed relationship and unacceptable behavior.
You need to seriously consider if this relationship is worth it. I'm not going to suggest you break up, that's your decision. But you need to weigh it carefully and make sure he understands that you are weighing it carefully. He needs to see how much this has affected you and disturbed you, and why-- make sure he understands your concerns about him and peer pressure. Do not focus on the actual act, as that can be misinterpreted as simple jealousy, or on the feminist angle, which can be misinterpreted as ideology (both of which issues you mentioned); focus instead on his decisions and his choices, and your concern about his priorities and judgment. That way he thinks of this not as "my girlfriend is jealous and hurt" or "my girlfriend is mad because I was unfeminist"-- they may be true, of course, but ultimately the deep underlying issues are can you trust him in the future? Will he be a good partner? Do you share the same values (the number one predictor of relationship success)? In short, will the relationship work, or does this prove you are too incompatible?
He may put forth the effort to change, in which case you might be able to salvage things, but you should accept that if he does not change, it may not be worth it.
You poor, poor thing! I have a friend who just found out last summer that her bf (was about to be fiance, he said he hoped!) was, up til she and he became exclusive (so, AFTER they got together), a lifelong user of prostitutes. And having seen what she went through I truly feel for you. Even though I've never met you I wish I could give you a hug!
I don't think I can tell you what to do because you don't know what someone's relationship is like behind closed doors. So as for my friend, I've written out some questions and thoughts that you might want to consider alone or together, that might help clarify your thinking. I've adapted it a bit as my friend's bf said he really didn't believe he'd done anything wrong as technically, unlike your bf, he didn't cheat. I don't know which is worse - the one who isn't breaching his own principles, only everyone else's, but has done it loads of times, or the one who violated his own morality, but only once - but I do know your bf DID cheat. Unless you agree to be in an open relationship the only person who should touch his penis, besides you and him, is the doctor.
So here are some thoughts it might be useful to mull over. I've tried to keep it brief where others have covered the same ground but it's still long I'm afraid!
1. How would you feel if it happened again? Next week? Next year? When you're pregnant with his child? If it were full sex? Unprotected full sex? What can he do, besides therapy, to show you that it will never happen again (eg do some work for charities who help prostitutes/trafficking victims, assert himself more with his friends)?
2. How much time and energy have you invested in this? How hard would it be to leave, emotionally, financially? What support can you marshal living where you are? If you stay are you doing it because you think he's your last chance to have babies or there's a shared mortgage etc, or because you truly believe it was a one-off idiocy and that you can work it out? Couples DO work through worse than this and go on to be even stronger, but if you stay, be honest with yourself about why.
3. You can't fall out of love with someone overnight even if they do a terrible thing. But you can stop respecting them overnight. It is OK if you take a couple months or longer to fall out of love, because without a topping up of ongoing respect, eventually love will die. It is also OK if you try to stumble on together during that time and break up with him later. That is normal (it just happened to my friend, it took 2 horrible months). Be gentle with yourself during this time and make sure you have a round-robin of friends on duty to cheer you up or be a shoulder to cry on, whichever method helps you through it. But, be clear with him that even if you agree to try working it out, breakup down the line is a possibility - because if you say 'I forgive you', you can't reproach him with it again, so don't say it until you can mean it and can truly move on. And ask yourself, DO you respect him now? If not, what can he do to earn that back?
4. Do you trust him in other ways? Has he ever let you down before, say over money or another of the really big issues? What is the rest of the relationship like, day to day? If you were out in a group and a person said something sexist or otherwise offensive to your beliefs (and what he claimed were his beliefs), can you count on him to always fight your corner? How come he doesn't do this when you're not around, and how can he show you he can start?
5. What is his behavior with other risky/immoral/impulsive acts? Drugs, speeding, spending etc. Even if the sex act is a one-off, is this part of a wider pattern? Is he young or not very worldly (if he's under 25 or grew up extremely sheltered perhaps he gets the benefit of more doubt)? Are his friends cheaters or users of prostitutes (the likelihood a man will cheat is more strongly linked to his friends' views/actions than almost anything else)? You can't tell him to dump old friends (new ones maybe) and he can't always choose his colleagues, but you CAN insist that he stand up to his friends, or at least walk away where they are doing something he doesn't approve of.
6. He dumped his guilt on you rather than just shut up and shoulder it. That adds insult to injury. If he didn't put your health at risk how dare he do this to you emotionally? Does he realize that this compounded the initial cruelty?
7. YOU dumped HIS reputation into the muck when you told your dad. Part of the reason your dad is defending him may be that his image of this nice boy his daughter was probably going to marry wouldn't survive accepting that said boy may be a weak and immoral craphead. Part of your bf's offence is also that he put you in an impossible position; you can't turn to HIM for support because he is the source of the pain, but you couldn't turn to your family without doing something awful - shaming him before the world. Be prepared that your bf may resent you for this and use your counsellor instead of family from now on to discuss this (you can lean on friends but don't tell them specifics where you know it'll be fatal to their respect for him). Otherwise if the relationship survives your family/friends may always resent or not trust him. That said, say sorry once then do not let this become about you telling X or Y person, or about the way you express your anger if you scream or shout, because those are red herrings. If he does this, he is invalidating your feelings and values, feelings he chose to cause by doing it and then telling you, and values he chose to make valid in his life by dating you.
8. What about the other woman? How does he really view women? Is he supportive of your dreams? How does he treat those women he definitely isn't going to get to sleep with? How is he to his mother, or any sisters?
9. If you work it out and go on to have kids, what will you tell them about sex and morality? About the definition of rape, consent, fidelity, etc. Are you OK with being with a man who (because he didn't ask her age etc) has a serious lack of authority on any of these things? Are you sure he won't say one thing when you're in the room together but another when it's just him? Would you want him to tell your kids about his past mistake? Remember to consider it with regard to future sons and daughters as you may feel differently about each.
10. Crucially: if you stay, will you feel like you have compromised something fundamental about who you are and what you stand for? Part of being in a relationship is that the other person ennobles you, they build you up, not drag you down. He has already compromised HIS self-professed morals. Can you love him if you feel he is implicitly asking him to compromise YOURS?
11. Remember most of all, which nobody has said but I am sure they would all agree: THIS IS NOT YOUR FAULT. This is something HE did. It's not about thinking you're unattractive or not being happy with your sex life or any of the things women in your position can torture themselves with, or are told by spiteful people. It's nothing to do with you. This is his shit and he's making it your problem. It's also not normal; even in some quite patriarchal societies the vast majority of men NEVER pay for any sex act and of the minority who do, most only do it once. Of the majority who never do it, or whose single time was before they married/settled down, many of them have problems in their relationships and still choose not to stray. He also had that option. If there was a problem at home he had the option to talk to you and fix it together (your post proves you have a relationship where this is possible), or to honorably end it and THEN see other women, paid or not. He chose the other road. There was nothing you could have said, or done, or offered him in bed, that would have prevented it.
The very best of luck to you. I hope you find a positive way forward.
Wow, zes, I will go through each one of those in my mind. I appreciate you taking the time to draw on your experience with your friend.
Just on telling my dad: I called him on the night when I felt as though the world was falling in around me. I was deep in panic and deep in shock. I felt so vulnerable that I needed more comfort than even my best friends could provide - I'm not sure if people can relate to that. If I had any sort of a relationship with my mother I may well have been on the phone to her instead. My dad and I are really quite similar and we are close following my mum leaving.
I also instinctively trust men more than women following years of abuse from my mum when I was younger, though I have worked on that and I do have some great friendships with women. Anyway, my dad was a great help on the night, but not so much in the follow-up email...
Sall - re telling your dad, I totally get it, when you are that low the list of people you want to talk to is very short, and the no1 person on it had self-eliminated. My friend said one of the most upsetting things was that she'd always told her parents everything and felt she couldn't, and that her bf had therefore created an isolation that was horrible. Perhaps you're better off; when she did eventually leave she had to stay with her folks and for them it all came out of the blue. I guess I'm saying be prepared: this may be a legit issue, but that doesn't mean it is THE issue.
I didn't realise last night how long that first post was! I hope it is helpful!
I had to make a similar decision. What was hardest for me was that I could see his potential. If he would just do A,B,C, things would be great.
But I couldn't make him, and though it took me a long time, I realized that unlike houses, people fixer-uppers are never a good deal. Check back in after HE'S done the remodel.
i did not read all comments, so sorry, if smbdy has already written down this:
in hungary, we have a very wise custom for women. they say, check out the man's behaviour on the first date towards the waitress. that's how the man will behave toward you after 10-15 years. the sociological pattern of this is, that the waitress is inferior to the customer, as inferior women will be in the marriage after lots of years to men. so to see, how a man will behave, when you are in weak situation (like raising kids, having no job, doing housework etc, oh, yeah, and we do not have wife support after divorce in hungary! only child support...) you can check it prior on the first date. if he is an asshole, he will be asshole as well, when you are into the marriage a few years.
sall,
i am sorry to say this, but those people, who are telling you boys will be boys, and etc, are not your friends... i have experienced the same situation, and it is awful to know, that those persons, who say "friend" pity your problems, and make it seem minor, when it breaks your heart. a true friend does not say this.
and thinking about your boyfriend: if he thinks, it's ok to go out and sexually expoit a woman by his money, how will he behave towards you? (i am sorry, i don't beleive in "prostitution by free will", i can understand, that there are some, but the most are exploited and trafficked, or just simply financially forced.) if a man is ok to handle a woman as masturbation toy, that man is not considering any woman as human being with basic human rights. if he cheats on you with a prostitute, what kind of respect can you expect at all? if he respects women only be as sex providers, and buyable goods? what next, he will impress others to rape women? or have unprotected sex, and give you aids?
and another thing about your boyfriend. if he is so impressible, what will be the next excuse? he will hit you, or rape you, because you have "provocated" him (say, you were not on his opinion about anything)? what will be next? will he do drugs, to people please? will he drink? will he kill people to please?
he is not a feminist. he doesn't respect women as human beings. he doesn't respect you. he doesn't respect your relationship.
so my opinion is about the whole situation: RUUUNNN!!!
(actually, your story has made me to think over my relationship as well...)
I agree that if a partner is rude to a waitress (or waiter) then you should run. However, a lot of asshole men are clever enough that they are very charming to people like waitresses and the general public because appearing like charming wonderful people is important to them and then they treat the people closest to them like crap. Thats how you get the abusers who everyone but those who know them intimately claim they are so wonderful, generous and charming and "good guys". Just saying, being polite to serving staff is no guarantee. I would bet that since the man described in the post cares how he appears to others that he has likely treated his waitresses great.
you are exactly right. actually, my mother did this waitress test, married my father, and my father turned out to be exactly this kind of psychopath. we were the "perfect" family from the outside, rotten in the inside... blahh.
Allow me to weigh in: give him another chance.
If for every mistake that we make, our SO dumps us, a lot of us would be single.
He obviously cares about you enough to be truthful toward you, and the issue bugged him enough to render him that open and honest with you - that's something to be said of his character.
I don't make excuses for what he did - but I also see this as a learning opportunity, one you can use to open his eyes about the sex work industry, as well the plight of women. This is an opportunity for you two to grow together in your feminism.
The point is that for many feminists, the moment that clicked is a very personal and emotional one - this could be the moment for him. I know, in my own experiences, that my growth in feminism would have been thwarted had, each time I made a mistake, the woman who introduced me to feminism dumped me.
You have no obligations to teach him anything - but if you still gave a shit about the relationship, this is a good way for him to make up for his mistakes, and for you to help him along.
Of course, all bets are off if you no longer love him, though.
Marc
some mistakes are just too egregious to give someone another chance.
Yeah, it's not like he bought the wrong brand of peanut butter at the store. This was not a mere mistake but a major betrayal, and a deliberate one at that.
So, in a perfect world, where all relationships are the same, you're correct. But the point is neither you nor I know about the intimate details of their relationships. We can only offer pros and cons, rather than blanket decisions, with the information we're given.
Maybe this is the final straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back - maybe this is a one-time mistake, either way, we're here to give the OP our opinions, not debating one another over which answer is best.
Not everything in feminism has to be a debate.
I don't think that any mistakes are too egregious to be unforgivable. The question is whether they're part of an underlying pattern that you don't want to be with. I'd give credit to the guy for being honest and open. There seem to be other factors that make him look like an insecure weenie.
I've made mistakes and paid for them. I've forgiven others for mistakes, and sometimes too many times. I feel that I'm a lot more forgiving than many of the ladies on here. I don't think that there's a blanket answer given all of the factors that we don't know.
There are myriad possible relationships that one could be in. You don't have to fight for the one that you're in if you think that you could have better chances of future happiness elsewhere.
Sure, everyone makes mistakes. Not everyone cheats. Not everyone cheats with a sex worker. Not everyone cheats with a sex worker at a massage parlor. Not everyone cheats with a sex worker at a massage parlor when they claim to be feminist and have a girl friend who they know feels very strongly about this topic. Using your logic that everyone has made bad choices in a relationship (which may or may not be true) could be used to justify staying with someone who beats the crap out of you badly enough to put you in a wheel chair (but he only did it once, we all get our "one mistake" right?) or just about anything. If you could make a comment like, hey, we all have had a happy ending in a massage parlor even though we know our significant other is dead against this, then maybe you would have a point. Thank goodness that isn't the case.
Infidelity - unacceptable as it might be, is not the same as being a domestic violence terrorist. There is a diffence.
Let's not discount the survivors of domestic violence by comparing it to having been cheated on.
Bill Clinton and John Edwards do not belong in the same category as OJ Simpson and Chris Brown.
You're boyfriend is a loser. Leave him and move on.
And Marc, you're right. This is not the same as beating someone up.
And I would rather be single than having a boyfriend with no balls.
Without commenting on the complexity of the issues debated in this posting, i think it must be pointed out how much of a caring person OP clearly is.