I fully admit I don’t listen to much music. My 1st generation 1g iPod nano broke sometime this summer and I haven’t bothered to try to find the money to get another one yet. My computer has been broken for a few months (I am using a computer lab computer right now) so I don’t have any of my music here, either. But even when I did have those things I didn’t listen to much music. It was mainly feminist/queer folksy or rock with some riot grrrl thrown in there. Popular music is not even on my radar. I go to a tiny little hippie college where I’m only in a car once a week anyway, so I don’t even really listen to the radio. We don’t have TVs in residences so I don’t ever flip on MTV. Sometimes it feels isolating, but it’s also nice at times.
I also don’t go to parties very often. Either I don’t know of their existence or I have no interest in going. Last Friday, however, the LGBT group on our campus threw a dance and, since I’m the president and all, I had to be there. Even while we were setting up somebody put on some music and I was really surprised to hear misogynistic music. I brought it up then and there. I asked why we were listening to music that promoted putting women at a lower place than men and only was talking about the physical attractiveness, or lack thereof, of women. The response was that I was being “too sensitive” or “stupid” and that “nobody would come” if that kind of music wasn’t being played.
This dance was supposed to be a safe, inclusive space. And it definitely wasn’t for me.
On Saturday night all of the resident advisors went to another town to go roller skating together. The drive was a little over an hour long and we were split up into a few cars. One of my really good friends was playing DJ in the front seat and I was just really surprised at the music she was putting on. This woman is somebody who is all about gender studies, she considers herself a feminist, and yet she was repeatedly putting on music that was degrading to women and singing along to it.
Maybe I am being “that feminist” but it was really hard for me to sit there and bite my tongue while people around me sang songs that I disagreed with in so many ways.
And I really don’t know what to say or do when this comes up again. Suggestions?
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It's a frustrating issue for sure.
Thing is, people listen to music for different reasons, and not all of them include lyrics (the presence of Japanese in my own collection speaks to that). I've had music that I've enjoyed until I listened to the lyrics closer and realised what was actually being said. Still, they have to be pretty damn bad to totally turn me off (Nickleback, I'm looking at you right now). And sometimes, despite the lyrics, the song is just too damn enjoyable. That abandonment of normal sensibilities has its appeal.
Unfortunately, the more popular the music, the worse the lyrics seem to be. And genres that are good for dances seem to be the worst, which would explain that experience--there just isn't that much else that would work for the venue.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't have a solution to the problem, either. I like to go to parties, but it seems like the kind of music that is played at most parties is in the "Gs up, hos down" camp. And, while I hate the lyrics, the sound of the music is festive or fun or what-have-you.
So should we, as feminists, draw the line and refuse to listen to this kind of music? I don't think it's as simple as a yes or a no. Sure, it has sexist elements - but so is a lot of classical literature (albeit it's a little more... intellectually substantial than pop music). For me, I think it can still be enjoyed sometimes, if taken with a grain of salt. On the other hand, though, I would thoroughly support a friend who chose not to listen to sexist music, and I would be quick to change the music at my party if someone thought it was misogynistic.
Wow, that's a really surprising response coming from a feministing reader.
We don't accept popular actors saying or doing misogynistic things because they are "good in movies" or there's "not much else in theatres."
I'm not sure why it's OK because, "oh, there isn't anything else to play at dance parties" or "it's really enjoyable" or "nobody is paying attention to the lyrics anyway."
Lyrics like
"Open up her legs then filet mignon that pussy
I'm a get in and on that pussy
If she let me in I'm a own that pussy
Go'n throw it back and bust it open like you 'posed to
Girl I got that dope dick "
and
"Hey ladies drop it down
Just want to see you touch the ground"
and not to mention the prevalance of "no homo" in these songs.
Sure, yeah, they are totally against all of our morals, but, gosh darnit, they're fun!
Not.
I'm sorry, this was supposed to be in response to Notoriously Mandy.
I feel like you misinterpreted my comment as a defense of misogynistic music, which is not how I meant it at all. I wasn't trying to say that I nightly put on some sexist-tunes and run myself a nice, hot bath or anything. I was just saying that I understand that a degrading attitude toward women pervades music that can enhance a party's atmosphere.
I think a lot of the commentators agreed that, sometimes, popular music is hard to get away from, and it's not a shameful thing to like music when you don't necessarily agree with the lyrics. I think ScottRock said, liking a certain kind of music doesn't make a person a bad feminist, as long as they are cognizant of the lyrics and their meaning. I don't think I'm un-feminist or atypical of the feministing community just because I sometimes listen to music that doesn't reflect my values. I think that decisions to watch/listen to certain media should be informed, yes, but, ultimately, it's at the individual's discretion, and what's okay for me might not be for you, and vice versa.
I went to a similar college, and i know exactly what you are talking about.
I'm a little uncomfortable with how you phrase "she considers herself a feminist"--as though she isn't a real feminist unless she conforms to some kind of ideological purity in thought and action. I could definitely be misinterpreting this. But, i don't think that musical taste necessarily makes someone a better or worse feminist--as long as the listener understands the underlying issues with whatever media is in question.
That being said, it's absolutely inexcusable that they should ignore your misgivings. Perhaps a good course of action would be, the next time this music comes on, to take the opportunity to learn about this apparent contradiction. Do they understand the underlying message of these songs? How do they reconcile their beliefs with their taste in music? Where do they draw the line--would white supremacist speed metal be ok as long as "only one person" was offended? These may be kind of extreme examples; above all i would approach the subject with an open mind and inquisitive attitude, avoiding judgment.
The underlying problem is that it's really, really hard to find musicians who perfectly conform to our social ideal. David Bowie once wished for fascist government, and it was Eric Clapton who coined the phrase "Keep Britain White." In some cases (Bowie) they recanted, but in others (Clapton) the artist has never apologized. What do you do?
Not what I meant, and I'm sorry I didn't phrase it in the way I meant it. What I meant to say was, "this is a person who I have heard loudly condemn misogynistic media messaging and will proclaim herself to be a feminist and it surprised me to hear her singing along to these songs about people being degraded."
The thing with music is that there is a LOT of it out there. I know that you've indicated that you don't have much interest in music but I would imagine someone in you LGBT does.
For the next dance or event that your group throws find someone to put in charge of finding some inclusive, positive music. As shocking as it is there is plenty of music that is enjoyable and danceable that is positive or at least not degrading to women or anyone else :-)
Also, when someone does come up with a great pop song that has a positive (or at least neutral) message share that with your friend who might not have heard it.
You can't change her musical preferences, but you can introduce them to songs that you are more comfortable with.
Off the top of my head, some pop or dance songs that I think have a positive or neutral message, they aren't great, but they are fun:
"I gotta feeling," Black Eyed Peas
"Beautiful Life," Ace of Base
"Every time we touch," Cascada
"Shewolf," Shakira
Maybe that can be a place to start for your next dance?
Not sure this helps at all or really addresses your issue, but I think being aware of it and pointing it out when appropriate is a great idea. And if you get an opportunity to bring more positive music up I think you should take it, even if it's not your thing.
:-)
I guess I'm really out of the mainstream music scene, too, because my only thought was "what kind of music WAS this?" It's gotten bad out there, hasn't it?
Here's my (lame) solution - 80s theme parties. Not only do you get to sidestep the "gangstas and hos" genre that's become so popular lately (probably because of the beats, let's be honest), but you can pre-select the playlist in advance. Everyone likes kitsch, so you don't even have to tip your hand to the real reason behind the choice.
Sure, there was some misogynist music in the 80s, too, but "Everybody Wang Chung tonight" seems like a pretty innocent lyric to me. There's good stuff available.
Sorry to hear about your bad experience... especially with an LBGT group! Sigh.
Please do not use the term "lame" in this manner. Here is a link explaining why it is problematic:
http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/12/ableist-word-profile-lame/
Most of the time I can't understand what people are saying when they sing, unless it's a very clearly sung song. Once in a while I'll pick up on some nasty lyrics and after that I have a hard time listening to that particular song.
But I can't sit and review the lyrics of every single song I ever hear to see if it's "okay" to listen to, so I just go by whether I like the tune or not.
This solves nothing of course, I'm just saying that's how I am. :)
Because beleive it or not, there are women who women who actually enjoy sexually explicit lyrics and songs about casual sex. They don't feel degraded when they engage in it and they don't feel degraded by listening to that music.
Its comparable to the whole all prostitutes are victims vs prostitution can be empowering for those who choose to do it willfully argument in feminism. When it comes to things like this we all can't agree because we're all different.
I'm not talking about sexually explicit lyrics, I am talking about misogynistic lyrics. "Ima own that pussy" is clearly a man dominating a woman not a woman enjoying a sex act.
No, it isn't, especially with the precursor lyrics "If she let me in".
"Own" in the age of the internet has multiple definitions, including the idea that one has achieved something to a high degree, i.e. "I owned that Physics test". Given the other lyrics the song seems to suggest that, given consent, said singer is going to perform sexual actions in a high capacity.
Let's not confuse sex-positive lyrics with misogyny.
I'd suggest expanding your knowledge of current popular music. There's just no other way to form any sort of nuanced position. Some current music is misogynistic. Ditto with TV. And movies. And every other form of entertainment.
But life is not a small liberal arts college. I'm willing to wager you'll have to deal with this music thing eventually, especially if you plan on living in a large city.
You're wrong. "Own," in Internet parlance, means "dominate." When you see a photo captioned "OWNED," it doesn't mean "achieved to a high degree." Learn what you're talking about.
But in the parlance of sex it can have multiple meanings. In the context of the other lyrics the issue isn't dominance over a person in general, but rather dominant command of a sexual act.
You're obviously hung up on one word, to one sung. But what about other songs the specifically talk about violence against women?
Is "bitch, bleed, bitch" also about taking control of the passion?
Of course that's wrong. My issue is conflating sex-positivism with misogyny, and I think I've made that clear from the very start. That's why I'm "hung up" on the example. The OP brought it up as a misogynist lyric, when in fact I find it to be, instead, simply a sex-positivist lyric.
And this is part of a larger phenomenon whereby people decry sex-positivist culture as harmful and akin to misogyny. It's particularly prevalent in criticism of music, too.
I don't think this is me being "hung up". The lyric was provided as an example of something it wasn't.
I agree that "sex-positive" and "misogynistic" are separate concepts that should not be confused. I don't agree that the OP confused them, and I don't agree that the song s/he posted as an example is so clearly on the sex-positive side.
He compares part of her body to an expensive cut of meat, describes what he's going to do to it, and crows about his sexual prowess. What he does NOT do is make any reference to her personhood or her pleasure. Saying that "if she let me in" is about consent, which therefore makes this all sex-positive and not misogynistic, is a seriously weak argument. He could just as easily be describing a physical struggle as a discussion about consent.
And even if he IS talking about consent, it's pretty clear that the rest of the encounter is all about him. And even if this is, for both parties involved, a satisfying and positive encounter, this is still only one kind of encounter in a galaxy of real-life positive sexual experiences. Priviliging this male-centric experience by describing it over and over while nearly every other kind of sexual encounter is ignored is STILL misogynist, NOT sex-positive.
See, I just disagree here. The filet mignon line is a verbal pun about eating with relish, not about turning the woman into a piece of meat. And the "like you 'posed to" line is in clear reference to skillful oral sex.
As for the pleasure involved, it's a description of the act from a male perspective. There are songs out there that cut both ways in this regard, but the idea that a male is getting pleasure from giving oral sex well isn't sex-positive? Not buying it. Something doesn't have to describe the pleasure of both sides explicitly if it's implicitly suggesting the pleasure of the partner the entire time.
Is the song boisterous and boastful? Yes. But misogynistic? I just don't think so.
Well I still disagree, but this is derailing so let's table it. If you want to make the topic of misogynistic vs sex-positive song lyrics its own post, I'd be happy to follow you there and hash it out more.
Because songs about "smacking a ho" and "tearing that pussy" are about positive sexuality and not about degrading women.
What the fuck world do you live in? You can defend being sex positive, but you can't EVER defend lyrics of rappers like Eminem as a feminist.
The band 3OH!3 has a song called "Don't Trust Me" -- it takes the entire thing to a new level. It contains lyrics like "Shut up girl, close your lips. Do the Hellen Keller and talk with your hips."
WARNING: This song also brings the phrase "trigger warning" to a new level.
Don't look it up if you're not feeling emotionally up for some ASTONISHINGLY misogynistic lyrics (which is understandable).
Do look it up if you are feeling a little more resilient, because I think it's important to realize that this song was at the tops of the charts for a while -- in order to remember how far we have to go as a culture.
In terms of the party situation, I think its always good to have a variety of music. While 80's music is fun, its super played out. Quite frankly, I've grown really bored with 80s dance parties. But not everyone, especially when its a party, will agree with or like all the music being played.
I've found some safe playlists for such parties usually cover a wide range of musical tastes...always remember not every artist in every genre supports misogyny. There's more than a handful of underground and even mainstream hip hop artists who are female friendly and have a good dance beat. AND...just about every genre is danceable.
I'd like to build on what tryingtosmile said above. I known you (the OP) said you haven't been keeping up with contemporary music, but you might need to make more effort to educate yourself about it if you want to make a difference. Now that you know this could potentially be a problem at future events, you'll want to prepare early. Maybe you could ask everyone involved in planning (or other friends) for recommendations of music with positive messages and then compile a list. Look up music reviews in publications that share your values (magazines, blogs, etc). Keep adding your finds to the list. If you're in a position to do so, take charge of the music planning (or put someone you trust on it). Let the goal of providing music that coincides with the group's principles be a clearly stated goal. I guess an underlying point here is that, just like in many areas of life, if you let others be in charge of things, you're not going to have much say in how things go. But if you make the effort to learn about music that you can get behind, you might find the effort worthwhile. And then you can share the treasures you've found!
You have this problem too!? I'm that girl in EVERY group of friends I'm in. One way that I've found I can make my ideas work with the music my friends listen to is to make sure they know how I feel about music. When Love Story by Taylor Swift came out, I was astounded- that story has 'daddy's little girl' written all over it. That's just one song-- other songs, if I had a problem with them, I'd say something. Even if the song didn't get changed (we were usually in a 12 passenger van), I hoped that my comments would make people think about the songs we were singing. I cannot deny-- I do enjoy some songs that play on the radio because they're catchy and fun to dance to in the car. Also, if we want to be aware of what is going on in the music industry- we need to be listening to the songs that are popular- because if we just ignore the popular genre, how will things every begin to change?
Yeah, I've been deemed the Ruiner of Songs among my friends for actually paying attention to the lyrics. In my small circle, it's fine- they know I'm not going to stop and they're friends with me for who I am. In the larger world, it's still problematic.
I can totally see what the OP was saying. The looks on my friend's faces when I asked them to please stop playing "I kissed a girl" by Katy Perry because I find the lyrics very insulting to me and other lesbian women... However, I don't think you have to write off pop-music all together (80's themes get old). One of my favorite bands in the top 40 right now is the Gossip. Their music is pro-gay, super feminist etc. and the lyrics express that. Their music is also really fun!
So my advice to the OP would be, keep expressing your distaste with misogynistic lyrics but also find some music that your friends will like/works for parties etc. and sends a message you like. Who knows, your friends may actually even become fans!
One of the reasons I stopped playing live music is because I rarely confronted people who were emotionally stable, mature, responsible individuals. Misogynistic attitudes, sexism, and behavior degrading to women was pretty much the norm, and after a while, it all began to wear on me.
However, every musician has to learn to navigate and cope with this madhouse if success is ever to be attained. Making it is a lot of luck but it is often an endurance test. My larger point is mostly to say "examine the source" and yet not let the power and beauty of music be lost in the process. Music has a way of both inspiring us and brightening our spirits and without it, I would be utterly lost.
You were definitely within your rights to express your dissatisfaction with your friend's musical choices, but I think it's incredibly misguided to pull a "no true scotsman" on them just because they're feminists who happen to enjoy some trashy pop music. It's unrealistic to expect people to be consistent all the time and as long as they're not perpetuating or directly supporting those negative stereotypes/images, there's nothing wrong with having a few anti-feminist guilty pleasures.
"This dance was supposed to be a safe, inclusive space. And it definitely wasn’t for me."
I don't mean to derail the comments but just because something is LGBT oriented doesn't mean it's always an inclusive or safe space. i have taken a break from attending a youth group at my city's pride centre because it so disgustingly fatphobic.
that being said, i think the best thing you can do is look for fun, dancey songs that don't have these lyrics. you said you're the president of the lgbt group? you should definately selectivley choose music beforehand. i can't speak for you, time wise and such, but i'd go out of my way if it prevented people from feeling uncomfortable. in cars, you can't control what people like and what they listen to, but you can just let them know that you don't like it. rather than saying "i can't believe you like such mysoginistic music!" say "the evident mysogony in this song is making me uncomfortable, can we put on something else?" "I" phrases really do make a difference.
I'm more than aware that not every LGBT space is a safe space. However, I'm the president of the group that put on the dance and, because it is an extension of the group, was supposed to follow the same guidelines as the group. It didn't.
There is plenty of non misogynistic music out there. Last.fm has turned me on to so many great bands, that while not super poplar, have a good following and great music.
Imagine if the music to a song consists of "fuck that white Christian asshole up and shoot him in the head." There would be a riot and outcry of systematic hatred, even through music.
I can't imagine I'd feel very safe going about my daily life knowing that people are listening and dancing to and getting pleasure out of music about violence toward any social group I belong to.
Violence against women, even in musical lyrics, is violence against women. MRAs will always claim there isn't sexism - but this is a case of sexism - and people who say sexism isn't taking place aren't paying attention.
This is the kinds of shit feminists - and women, hear everyday. What I wonder isn't why it exists, but why aren't there more people concerned about it. Is this something that women have gotten used to at clubs, bars and other venues that play music?
Yeah, I feel like sexualized misogyny and homophobia is the last place in entertainment where you can spew as much hate as you want, and still be "edgy". No apologies, not excuses, just keep on pumping out the shit until the last penny is spent.
I found it particularly hilarious and pathetic when those in the recording industry where defending themselves during the Imus scandal--trying to act like what his ass did was somehow different than the messages that some of their own worst offenders are putting out, lol.
I suppose there are various degrees of what is considered "feminist" in music. For example - I absolutely love the song "I Kissed a Girl" because of its beat, and because of the bubble-gumish sounds, but I don't think it's feministic. Listening to it doesn't make me any less feminist, but I may only be seeing this because of my experience.
I don't doubt that your friends in the LGBT organization are genuine, but perhaps such blantant misogyny just doesn't relate to them, thus they see absolutely nothing wrong with it.
I wish every were as introspective as you, we'd be putting a lot of misogynistic entertainers and products out of business - but since that isn't possible, all we can really do is engage them in that conversation.