The Tyra Show is looking for women who "refuse to get rid of that leg, arm, or facial hair." Really Tyra? Just read the request for sources/guests on the show, I almost threw up in my mouth:
"DO YOU REFUSE TO GET RID OF THAT LEG, ARM, OR FACIAL HAIR?
Do you pride yourself on being hairy? Are your friends always begging you to shave your
legs, armpits, or get rid of that mustache? Do you hate shaving and waxing
is too painful so you've embraced your hairiness? Is your boyfriend disgusted by the sight of your hairy legs or does he love that you keep it natural? If you or someone you know loves their hairy bodies then please, call or email me asap."
Alright, run with it.
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Meh. I've never seen the problem with social constructs regarding appearance, provided those constructs aren't actually unhealthy (e.g. excessive thinness). Men either have to shave their faces or grow a proper beard to appear "professional"; women have to shave their legs to appear "attractive". *shrug* No biggie.
As a woman who spends a lot of time and money each week on hair removal so that I can be viewed as attractive and as someone who fits the norm I disagree that this is "no biggie". I have to remove leg hair, arm pit hair, the hair on my arms because it's dark and would be considered gross, facial hair, pubic hair, and navel hair (also dark and considered gross). The time I spend removing hair to be considered "normal" for a woman is above and beyond what any man has to do. And, I'm not even THAT hairy. I know women who remove back hair and other body hair.
Am I the only one who first parsed this as biting commentary: "Refuse to get rid of your facial hair? Or your arm or leg?!"
Exactly! "Refuse" is they key word here. I REFUSE to watch you Tyra.
IDK why anyone would watch this refuse.
I never understand removing arm hair. It just weird to me. What's wrong with arm hair? What's next the hair at the base of my neck?
You aren't the only one, and I actually do like to shave my arm hair but have had people remark on how it's kinda weird (for want of a better word). I just like the feel, which is surprising b/c I absolutely do not shave my legs or armpits (and I haven't shaved my arms in a while b/c I'm too lazy and also too broke to buy razors).
I remember getting comments about my arm hair when I was in the third grade. I shaved for a little while when I was older but by then I wasn't getting comments and haven't since, thankfully. I don't consider my arm hair abnormal at all anymore. One of my sisters still shaves her arms however, as does my brother. He shocked me the most when he did that and it made me hate those comments that I got as a child all over again.
I've always considered Tyra to be a raging tool. This just confirms it.
I hope people call or email her professing their love for their natural bodies and reconstructing gender beauty "rules". It wouldn't hurt anyone, of course, how the show would edit things down would be a different story.
I love how Tyra is supposedly all about supporting women on her show....and then she does this. This just shows that she really is trying to encourage the norm in the women who watch her show, well at least part of the norm. And, at least genital hair isn't included....
I don't see a conflict between supporting women and acknowledging or even reinforcing social norms regarding appearance (again, provided the norms don't pose a health risk). How are women harmed by a social norm that favors a lack of body hair?
Because what if they don't want a lack of body hair?! (slash "refuse")?? They're harmed by being a social pariah. Yeah, I said pariah. The wording in this request is patronizing and judgmental. Social expectations, healthy or not, is kind of the whole problem.
How are gay people harmed by a social norm that favors heterosexuality?
But that's the thing - not all social norms are equivalent. A social norm limiting a core identity trait like sexual orientation is different than a norm limiting cosmetic choices like whether or not to shave your legs.
Oh, also, the scope and intensity of the norms matter too. If every aspect of a woman's appearance and conduct is strictly constrained, and all deviations from the norm are heavily stigmatized, then yeah, that's a problem. That's not really the culture we live in anymore though.
Are you kidding me? That's not the culture we live in? Have you tried being a woman who ventures into public with hairy legs and armpits? Or worse yet, go to the pool in a bikini bottom and not gotten rid of the pubic hair that pokes out of your swimsuit? Have you tried being a woman and merely mentioning that you haven't shaved in two days so now there is stubble on your legs in front of guys? Have you tried being a woman with a tad-bit thick mustache?
Most people would sum it up with one word: Disgusting. When a woman has to go to the store on a hot day in a hurry and she hasn't shaved in 5 days so she wears clothes to reveal that she *gasp* has some body hair, people look at her in disgust and think she is lazy, unattractive, and gross. That is what I would consider being "heavily stigmatized." And that's just body hair.
So true. I didn't shave until I was 15 because I was against it, and damn, did I get made fun of for it. Yikes. It still am a bit against required leg shaving, but the teasing I got for it was not worth it. People acted like having hair was unnatural and a sign of dirtiness. Even admitting I have a hardcore mustache and unibrow draws disgusted looks from people even though my face is hairless except for my eyebrows. So yeah, before someone can say that the expectation that women be hairless isn't that bad, try and be a hairy woman for a day at the pool.
I've tried being a woman who ventures out in public with hairy legs and armpits. I'm a woman, I had hairy armpits for a few years, and hairy legs for a while as well. I want to take R. Dave's side a little bit here. I went out in public with unshaved armpits all the time, never noticed a lot of staring, and never got negative comments. The few comments I got were from people saying they liked that I didn't shave; I had a few women tell me they wanted to grow theirs out, too. I presume some people noticed & didn't like it, but had the good manners to keep their mouths shut. I've certainly never noticed funny looks when I go out with prickly leg stubble. I live in a medium-sized city in the south.
Not saying there isn't lots of social pressure to be shaved; there must be, since almost all women do it. But I think it's misleading to say that differing from the norm renders you into a hideous pariah. And most people are pretty realistic about the tendency of shaven hair to grow in as stubble, & thus not look perfect all the time.
When I was a kid it was pointed out to me that the hair on my lip was dark which was followed by "disgusting" and laughing. Now I wax it. So, differing from the norm has definitely affected how I see my self and make me feel unattractive.
Do we live in the same culture? Because if so, your statement makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.
The ingrown hairs I get whenever I wax would like to have a word with you.
Seriously, not to sound snarky, but in your comments, you seem to be blissfully unaware of all the pain and expense that goes into keeping oneself hairless (and thus socially acceptable). And I say this as a woman who isn't especially hairy (and who didn't have to deal with relentless harassment as a teenager because of her facial hair, like one of my friends did).
*chuckle* Trust me, Jen, I sympathize. I'm one of those unfortunate guys who has incredibly sensitive skin, and literally every time I shave, I spend the next two days with red bumps all over my throat and feeling like someone rubbed sandpaper all over my face. I personally hate the social norm that says I have to be clean-shaven to look professional at work. But it is what it is. I don't see it as a major imposition on my personal identity; it's just annoying.
Try feeling that sandpapery feeling all over your body, then we'll talk comparisons.
It is more acceptable for men to have a beard on the job than it is for women to have hairy legs.
Men can have beards if they so choose and not be ostracized by the general public, because guess what? Some men have beards. But women are not supposed to have hairy legs in any shape or form. These are the laws of society. So if you walk into work wearing a suit, and are neatly put together in every other way, only you are sporting a beard, you might get a few comments, or maybe even a small warning if your boss doesn't approve, but you won't get branded a freak. But if a woman walks into work with noticeable hair on her legs, she is considered extremely lazy, disgusting, someone who possesses poor hygiene habits, and ultimately this just might affect her position in the company, her standing in a developing relationship, the way she will be treated at the new place she volunteers at, etc.
Do you see the difference?
I remember swimming with a group of friends one day when I was about 15 yrs old. I shaved at the time, but sometimes got a bit lazy and didn't keep on top of it as much as I probably should have. Later that evening, one of my close friends revealed to me that one of the male counselors was talking about me to a group of people and making gross faces in my direction. He was talking about how my pubes were visible, and he had asked my friend to talk to me about shaving. I was mortified, and had to walk around in shame among these people after that.
As far as her standing in a developing relationship, if she's with someone who prefers their s/o with less body hair then that's a reflection of who she chose.
But overall I don't see a great deal of harrassment to women who are hairy or who don't shave their limbs.
I DO see a great deal od disdain for men who wear speedos with pubic hair sticking out as I see for women who wear bikinis with pubic hair sticking out.
I don't know many women who shave their arms (underarms yes arms-no) or legs for that matter and I haven't seen any mistreatment of them based on their hair.
Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, or that it's less painful to people when it does happen.
Well, if you don't draw the line at enforcing narrow social codes about body hair--- then where is the "ok/not ok" line drawn? When should we be upset that Tyra Banks is encouraging cultural norms? Cultural norms are always harmful to someone: there will always be people who don't fit into those norms, who have to do serious body alteration to be "acceptable." Body hair is just one. Think about skin tone and the current world trend of dark skinned women using skin lighteners (while white girls go and get fake tans year round). Or hair color-- even hair texture. How many women in this country straighten their hair every morning?! Or how many spend thousands of dollars getting hair treatments to relax it, or perm it, or get it braided! Then you cross into diet pills, diet programs...and finally, plastic surgery to fix whatever is "wrong" with themselves-- and it is all geared towards women- because women simply have to fit into these cultural scripts that exclude the majority of women.
Then, of course, there are the different expectations of men and women, which I personally have an issue with. If it was culturally acceptable for men and women to choose hairy or smooth legs- great. But, its not. It is just another showing of the inequality in our world. The day that men have to have perfectly groomed eyebrows, or the day that mine can be overgrown is the day that I reevaluate my thoughts on this.
Hells yes, Elizabeth!
Or the social norm that says I have to spend thousands of dollars on suits for work; hundreds of dollars on "cool" clothes to go out to a club/bar with friends; hours in the gym to have broad shoulders and ripped abs; etc. Or I can say screw it. I'll be bucking the social norms, and limiting the number of people who will think I look professional/attractive/whatever, but I can make that choice if I want. So can women.
The difference, though, is that beauty and worth aren't as conflated for men as they are for women. Basically, we have a set of social norms that say to both men and women "this is what's beautiful," but for women, the norm continues "and beautiful people are better than non-beautiful people." I think it's the second part that's damaging.
There are people who are smarter than I am. There are people who are faster runners, better musicians, more efficient workers, and yes, more beautiful than me. That's fine. I don't meet the ideal standards for beauty in this society any more than I meet the ideal standards for anything else. But my value as a friend, romantic partner, employee, or human being in general isn't judged on any single dimension. My value is based on a collection of all my traits. For women, that's less true. For women, beauty trumps most everything in our society. That is what I think needs to change.
If a hairy woman is considered less physically attractive than a non-hairy woman, I don't see that as a problem. If a hairy woman is considered automatically less valuable as a friend or partner than a non-hairy woman, regardless of any other personal characteristics she may have, that I do see as a problem.
"If a hairy woman is considered less physically attractive than a non-hairy woman, I don't see that as a problem."
I think you made a left, when you meant to make a right... IWF is that-a-way ??
"Next applicant, please step up. Ok let's see...you support equal pay for equal work; that's good. Comprehensive sex education - check. Strongly opposed to gender violence and in favor of raising awareness, obviously. Hmm, a little weak on the reproductive rights front, I see. You should really reconsider your position on late-term abortions, but we can work on that.
Wait, what's this? It says here you disagree with the "Body Hair is Beautiful" campaign? Oh I'm sorry, that's non-negotiable. I'm afraid you're just not a good fit with Team Feministing. I'd recommend crawling back under your rock with the rest of the fauxgressives." ;)
Well, MAYBE if your argument made sense...
Someone saying that there is no harm done when women are held to incredibly high beauty standards is pretty much THE VERY OPPOSITE of feminism.
Sorry, but that is NOT going to fly here.
Shaving your legs and underarms is not being held to a particularly high beauty standard.
it is if you don't want to spend the time, money and pain doing it all over your hairy jewish body. i don't understand why any feminist would ever actively support any notion of beauty that isn't "love how you are naturally." anything else just lends itself to self-hatred, crippling self-esteem and judgment of others.
plus, if you havent spent a year or more shaving at least armpits and legs so that you are smooth at least 3 out of 4 days a week, i don't think you are really a viable vote for what is an imposition and what's not. you haven't lived that experience.
it took me 7 years of shaving to realize what a fucking crock it all was. sure, its a beauty thing, but its also fundamentally an issue of female consumption. a way for the patriarchy to take our money. a forced tax, if you will.
"i don't understand why any feminist would ever actively support any notion of beauty that isn't "love how you are naturally." anything else just lends itself to self-hatred, crippling self-esteem and judgment of others."
I guess it depends on what you think it means to be a feminist. To me, it means opposing gender-based discrimination, period. All the "love how you are naturally", don't judge others, self-esteem stuff is nice, but has nothing to do with feminism in my opinion. In fact, I think all that stuff gets in the way of actually achieving the core goal of eliminating discrimination because it creates extra baggage. Now, when you try to convince people to be/support feminists, they think it means signing up for all the touchy-feely stuff instead of just the no-brainer of opposing discrimination.
Being a feminist means being opposed to and fighting discrimination of women. When society systematically teaches women that their bodies are naturally wrong and unacceptable in some way or another, it causes mental and emotional health issues that has the potential to effect the quality of a person's life in a negative way. This touchy feely stuff isn't something I'd take lightly. It doesn't just effect how you treat yourself but how people treat you. Overall emotional health can have a serious effect on your physical health as well, and so I don't think it's something one should take for granted.
I also want to add that I think asking people to be neat and groomed is fine. But telling people that any part of their body is gross and should be removed to be accepted is ridiculous.
If it's not a high beauty standard, how about you keep your underarms and legs hairless for just 2 months and get back to us on how easy it was.
I'm a woman and my legs are hairier than most men. My hair is black and thick. I'm not one of those women who can not shave and people barely notice. I can not shave for maybe 2 days and people will notice and stare.
Men will say they have to shave their face and they don't want to, and I agree that stinks. But believe it or not, many women have facial hair too (!) but they can't get away with a little 5 o'clock shadow. They have to make it appear as if hair on their face doesn't even exist. I will admit that it probably doesn't cover as much of their face, but it can take as much time as a guy shaving if she's plucking each individual hair.
Oh and don't get me started on eyebrows...
me too!
sisterlove
I think you're missing the point that hair removal for women goes far beyond arm pit hair and leg hair to be considered normal.
Not to mention there are many, many people who *would* consider a woman with body hair less valuable as a friend or partner. Granted, I'm from southern CA, but I don't think that sentiment is exclusive to my area.
Perhaps it's hard to imagine the kind of flack you catch for being a hairy woman if you've never been one yourself.
As a woman with dark hair and light skin it is a harmful norm that frequently affects my self-esteem. Women are expected to be hairless or at least have tiny blond hairs all over our bodies, and many of us aren't. We have hair all over our bodies that we wax, bleach, shave, and pluck. But, you'd never know because we desperately want to fit the norm "hairless" and are excellent in hiding our "abnormal" body hair.
"DO YOU REFUSE TO GET RID OF THAT FORESKIN?
Do you pride yourself on being uncircumsized? Are your friends always begging you to snip that thing? Do you hate the scabbing, and cutting is too painful so you've embraced your extra skin? Is your girlfriend disgusted by the sight of your fleshy penis or does she love that you keep it natural? If you or someone you know loves foreskin then please, call or email me asap."
eh that wasn't supposed to be a reply to Elizabeth, but y'all get the idea.
Oooh, I can't wait for this show and I kinda want to apply.
I can not stand Tyra. She always does this. Like the "natural" hair episode all about black women embracing their natural hair, then turn to ANTM where apparently if you're a black woman your hair has to be pressed,straightened, wigged, weaved or practically shaved (unless your hair naturally looks like those springy-loose coils).
Or the episode featuring poly -amorous couples that made them out to be party-seeking selfish a-holes who didn't look after their kids. Or the episode with the woman who was selling her virginity. Or when she walked out in a bathing suit and told everyone to kiss her fat ass. Or, oh horror of horrors, the fat suit episode.
Or how the first and only plus-sized model to win was like a size 12 and a bad model especially compared to the likes of Toccara and some others who auditioned. I really started disliking Tyra more and more once I started watching a couple of episodes of her talk show.
But I take it this will be different. She will be just as sanctimonious as ever in condemning those who look down on women who don't shave and then will have such women on ANTM. Either that or she will pat herself on the back and/or spend half the show showing the women "pain/hassle free" hair removal options (I heard that buff-it thing actually works well. Might have to eventually get it for my arms).I vote a combination of option one and two with extra back patting. But whatever Tyra, you've made peace with your cognitive dissonance, who am I to interfere. And maybe I'm jaded. Maybe this episode will rock, and maybe I'll be on it.
Maybe its just me, but I don't find this particularly offensive...?
I know that Tyra Banks seems like a walking contradiction in so many ways, endorsing cultural norms on one hand and then willfully defying them on the other. And now she comes out with a shoe celebrating "hairiness" when you know that she will come onscreen waxed and shaved and shined. But I think her contradictariness is one of the main reasons she is so appealing. Don't women today balance their ideals and "guilty pleasures" in their lives? (*think unfeminist guilty pleasures).
I'm not a rabid Tyra fan in any way, but I do think she can be frank and outspoken about issues the media tends to shy away from. And I'm sure that many women watching this show have always assumed that not shaving just isn't "normal". Maybe this show would make them reconsider that.
Maybe I'm wrong, just my thoughts...
I don't think society deems hairy people are less than people who shave, but that some people are not attracted to hairy people.
I don't see this as a societal norm so much as a media norm where most of the people (men and women) ar ehairless. Men DO grow chest hair but I rarely see that in movies or tv shows. Most of the actors and models are in shape and hairless regardless of gender.
You rarely see it in movies?
Huge Jackman
Jude Law
Jake Gyllenhaal
All three are current A-list actors often named "sexiest men alive" and it looks like they all have their chest hair intact to me.
Thats three hairy men who arent always hairy. Wolverine was hairy so Hugh Jackman was uhhh..not a good choice to make your point. His character was supposed to have hair.
Denzel Washington
Morris CHestnut
Shemar Moore
Brad Pitt
Pierce Brosnan (mostly is hairless, he has had hair in some movies)
Matthew McCoughnehey (im sure I spelled his name wrong)
Hugh Jackman is hairy in all of the movies I've ever seen him in.
I could name more celebrities that have hair. I know that there is a trend towards men having less hair on their chests. However, they can opt to keep the hair and still be considered sexy and even more sexy than a hairless man because it's "rugged" and "manly". Women don't have this option.
"Do you hate shaving and waxing is too painful so you've embraced your hairiness?"
Do you hate proofreading and following the rules of English grammar is too much trouble so you write sentences that make no sense? Sheesh. The mangled grammar is what really offends me.
The amount of nasty comments I received from my own friends for wearing skirts with unshaved legs (not just unshaved-I mean completely natural) was really astounding in itself. They found it to be absolutely horrendous and disgusting, and they sincerely wished I would just 'shave it off already'. One of the most offended persons was gay friend of mine, to whom I replied "I'll shave my legs if you shave yours" to which he said he wouldn't because its just something girls have to do. This is when I realized shaving is bullshit (because even when I did eventually shave my legs, not a single person who had been lamenting even noticed).
If shaving really isn't a harmful social norm for woman, then please explain to me why its okay for all the ridiculous amount money spent on stupid useless vibrating razors and 'girl' shaving cream and waxing and depilatory creams and hours spent shaving, burning, waxing, cutting and plucking? Just so that we can appear natural or normal, so that no one will notice it or comment or care about it. It isn't anybody's business what I do with my own body hair, just like it isn't anybody business how many times a day I go to the bathroom or wash my clothes or whatnot. You make a conscious decision to shave, and not as a much a choice to remain as you were originally supposed to be.
If shaving is just a partner's preference, something we are naturally supposed to be inclined to like, then tell me-how did anybody find love before the invention of razors? Or in our earliest stages of humanity, were men just constantly turned off while looking at their partners hairy bodies? Something tells me that it was never an issue until we made it one.
Bcause some people dont want to be hairy, social norm or not most girls dont even have hair until puberty. Depending on who you are, you have grown breasts, hips and everything else long before hair got on your legs and arms and just prefer yourself that way.
Some girls have hair before puberty, some have less. The vast majority of girls have hair on their bodies before puberty, it's just less noticeable on some. Girls with darker hair and of some ethnic backgrounds tend to have darker hair on their arms and legs a few years before they hit puberty. Not all girls with dark hair have dark body hair though.
Okay, arguing that hairlessness is "just a social norm" and not gendered is effed up.
It's true that guys in movies often wax their chests and backs.
However, hairiness is also often considered sexy, particularly for the average dude, and at different times in recent history, has been more sexy than hairlessness (Burt Reynolds in the 70s, anyone?)
Hairiness for women is only considered sexy by a small, small minority of hippies and also the queer community (and even many queer women shave).
The percentage of body covered by hair removal is also incredibly different. For the average guy, he's expected to remove his beard and possibly he's expected to trim a bit in the pubic area. However, he can opt to have a trimmed beard.
For the average woman, she is expected to remove ALL VISIBLE HAIR EXCEPT ON HER HEAD (and maybe a landing strip on her pubic mound.) This thus entails waxing, shaving, bleaching, etc. She must shape her eyebrows, wax or pluck anything on her torso that's visible (happy trail, nipples), shave her legs and underarms, and trim and wax her bikini area.
All told, there is more effort, expense, and pain involved for the average woman than the average man.
The desired result and reasons for doing this also matter. For men, the desire is to be "clean cut" and neat looking. There's probably an effed up assumption that more hair = primitive. That's bad. But for women, it's much worse. Hairy women are considered unclean, lazy, gross, sexually repulsive (Not just unattractive), manly (whereas a hairy man is only more manly - possibly too manly or unprofessional, but still in keeping with the assigned gender identity), lesbian (which is bad), etc. The goal is not just to look "clean" but also refers to a prepubescent ideal of attractiveness which is gross.
Another key thing is that while shaving for a man is an open and even vaunted activity (boys look forward to being old enough to shave) as a sign of maturity, a woman is expected to keep any signs of her hair removal beyond leg shaving under wraps. She is not only expected to remove the hair but to pretend she doesn't and pretend that it never existed.
There's also a racial component of this where the white Anglo woman is held up as the feminine ideal and women in hairier groups are somehow less feminine.
And I say all of this as a woman with remarkably little body hair, which carries its own oddities. If removing body hair is really only necessary when it's visible, then why is it still unacceptable for me not to shave (I don't, which is easier for me because I'm queer)? I would suggest that this points to the performance of internalized self-hatred that women are expected to repeat. Aren't I afraid my hair MIGHT be visible? Don't I want to make sure I'm as feminine as possible? Bikini wax is really a misnomer since there's no bathing suit induced reason for me to do it - a bikini more than covers my natural hair. The real reason for women to remove hair is not just to make it invisible, I would argue. It is to keep us ashamed and fearful, and to remove a sign of... I don't know what. Testosterone? Maturity?
No idea, but this is NOT just some neutral societal norm. It is effed the hell up.
Ah, the body hair. What a fun issue.
I don't have thick body hair, but I do have BLACK body hair. So every hair I have is very, very visible. I have always been incredibly self-conscious about it, going to incredible lengths to rid myself of it, even going so far as to shave my belly, until about two or three years ago, when I threw up my hands, said "Fuck it!" and haven't touched a razor since. It's actually incredibly liberating. It's also a very effective way to weed out the douches from the non-douches, in my opinion. If someone negatively comments on it, ("How gross!") or if someone assumes I'm a lesbian (hilarious!) that is a big red flag, for me at least. Ever since I stopped shaving, I've been seeing how physically mature a woman looks with body hair, and how physically immature a woman looks without. Guess who doesn't have (especially) underarm/pubic hair? Little girls! Why are women pressured so hard to reduce themselves to pre-adolescence?