I'm actually kind of confused about the last part of your post. Because if I speak to a strange man on the street, you're damn right I expect him to reply and be nice to me. I would expect that from anyone.

As a woman I've never really had to deal with this idea that someone would be afraid of me, so I really don't know what it's like to be on the other side. But since I have most definitely avoid talking to someone because I was afraid of them, whether justified or not, I could see how some men would feel offended that I was afraid of them. Problem for them is that I don't care. I need to look out for myself first and foremost. But I could see how they might not like it. Too bad so sad though.

If you never find a guy who approaches you a little scary or intimidating, then props. I wish more women were like you.

But some are not. I've tried talking to women who then made it clear they did not want to talk to me. Those conversations lasted about two lines and were finished. Cool; no harm done, no reason to believe they were worried about my presence or anything. And I've tried talking to some who reacted in a noticeably different way. If you're even mildly observant, you can see the split between someone who's uninterested and someone who's decidedly wary.

"Scared" is not often the most precise term, I'll readily grant that. "Wary" or "cautious" are better. Not having seen or heard your specific examples, I won't assume that most likely this is where the guys you're talking about fail- in not being able to distinguish between the two- but if we speak generally about guys in this situation, I would say this is more than likely what's going on. Their comments are based on that more guarded reaction and them trying to figure out why it's happening than the overarching belief women are poor scared bunny rabbits and they just wish they could take that shuddering fear away.

Troglodyte. There it is again. The whole "some men are cavemen" stereotype.

It's old, it's wrong, and it's unproductive. If men are equals to women then calling them troglodytes/cavemen/neanderthals/some other word for sub or primitive human flies completely in the face of that principle.

And yes, women choose not to engage men for reasons other than fear, but that doesn't change the fact that some women do feel fear or anxiety when interacting with male strangers depending on where and when this interaction occurs.

However, you do address an important issue, which is playing out every interaction as if this is the cause, when it isn't always the case.

That said, sometimes this lack of interaction is a result of fear, and I don't think that that in any way dehumanizes the woman. Humans get afraid. What's dehumanizing is applying it writ large with no contextualization. Women do, at times, react to interaction with male strangers with fear. It's important to address the reason for that fear.

Thsi may or may not be a gender issue.

It could be about gender. Women, especially young women, are far more likely to be victims of sexual assualt. They are also more likely to be cautious about their friendliness being misinterpreted as flirting. Erring on the side of caution is often wise.

It may not be about gender though. Personally, I'm a private person. I really don't like to talk to strangers, male or female. I like to use my time reading, thinking, or zoning out. Aside from a brief greeting or a casual question, I wouldn't want to engage in conversation.

Of course not all men think this way, and in some cases, no doubt women actually are frightened.

To give some context, the post was prompted by a story on public radio, that I referred to in passing at the start. A very nebbish guy told a story about how he tried to engage a girl in conversation at length, on a bus, because he was inspired by a lecture he'd just attended about improving the public environment by talking to strangers. From the way he described it, she had no interest in the conversation from the start, but he just carried on, until at last she just stopped even replying to him. At which point he said "So you're not even going to reply to me?" and she said "Yup, pretty much" (paraphrasing obviously). At which point he said he realized "oh she must be terrified of me" (seriously). From his description, she was not terrified in the slightest, she just had no interest in the conversation.

What I was trying to get at is the way that in some situations, some men can’t admit to themselves that a woman wouldn’t want to talk to them because they were annoying, unattractive, seemed like a jerk, or for whatever reason the woman didn’t want to carry on a conversation with them, but instead to protect their ego and/or feel like a man, they assume that she was afraid. Instead of admitting the possibility that a woman formed a negative (though not frightened) opinion or just didn’t want to be bothered talking to him for whatever reason, he assumes that she must have been afraid. Instead of thinking to himself “Did I do something wrong? Was I obnoxious or over-familiar? Does she have other things on her mind and doesn’t want to talk to some stranger?” he thinks “She must be terrified of me”. When it doesn’t go the way the guy had planned, his analysis is that she was afraid. This pattern of thinking denies the woman her subjectivity and agency, her right to form her opinions of others and spend her time how she chooses. It also reinforces a sense of male power, by suggesting that the mere fact of being male makes a person inherently powerful and potentially terrifying. I never said that all men think this way, or that women are never frightened, I was thinking about situations in which the man assumes the woman was afraid, regardless of what her behavior indicated.

When it comes to “is he flirting or just making polite conversation”, even if it’s polite conversation, there’s a tendency for men to feel that women are there to serve their needs, conversational or otherwise. No doubt this varies in different communities and contexts, but I would think that generally, in North America at least, if a man tries to strike up a conversation with an unknown woman in public, on the street, or on public transit, even if he does it in a polite way, chances are, there’s a gendered undertone. If he wants to claim that it was just polite small talk and he had a right to a polite response, would he have said the same things to a random guy out in public and expect him to engage in conversation? There’s an assumption that a woman has a duty to be nice, which wouldn’t necessarily be expected of a man (though of course this varies by environment). It’s part of general patterns of sexist behavior in public space; the attitude that females are there for male observation, commentary, etc, while a man out in public can just go about his business without being overtly viewed as a sexual object, being leered at, being expected to make small talk with random strangers or else have obscenities screamed at him, etc etc.

Generally, I am all for being considerate and polite, and if someone wants to try to make chit chat, of course, in an ideal world, they should get a nice response. But the reality, in too many cases, is that there are underlying sexual and/or sexist assumptions when men try to start conversations with female strangers. I can understand why some women just automatically ignore anything a male stranger says to them. These men are not being too considerate if they assume that they have a right to get into a conversation with anyone they fancy. Especially if a woman gives polite signs that she is uninterested, and the man persists, that shows a lack of respect. It would be obnoxious, regardless of the genders of the people involved, if some random stranger insisted on having a lengthy conversation, when the other person was uninterested, but ideas about romance and the wooing male encourage this sort of thing. It’s part of the idea that woman are passive objects, with no inner life, that exist in order to respond to men.

If some women have a frightened reaction to strange males talking to them, it's probably from experience of the way that, in this situation, some men (even ones that seem perfectly nice and normal, even attractive) can go from 0 to psycho at the drop of a hat, if they don't get the reaction they expect. But that's another subject for another post (I seem to recall there was one here a while ago that provided lots of examples).

"If some women have a frightened reaction to strange males talking to them, it's probably from experience of the way that, in this situation, some men (even ones that seem perfectly nice and normal, even attractive) can go from 0 to psycho at the drop of a hat, if they don't get the reaction they expect."

No question. I've had to deal with this, and while it's sometimes frustrating on my end, I don't begrudge women their caution. Clearly, now that we have more detail, your radio guy was a moron above all else, and this concept is probably a mile over his head. But while most guys can understand his perspective to some degree, he's living at a special level of cluelessness. Not unique, but a pretty uncommon depth.

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I think men who do this, do so because of a desire to disassociate themselves with men who maliciously bother women in public. They don't want to admit, to themselves as well as to others, that they were boring/unattractive/annoying/clueless in the situation, so they tsk-tsk about these "other" men that the woman must have been "afraid" of when she rebuffed him. Taking the blame/focus off himself and laying it on others.

I find it annoying when I am commuting on the bus and the only people who are willing to engage in simple conversation are guys who then think I want to meet them later. I'm engaged and just feel like getting my extrovert on, not trying to be picked up on the bus.

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Yeah but like, often the idea that women are scared of strange men in public is correct. Acknowledging that fact doesn't equal "assuming women's lives are determined by male power," or whatever. If anything, I wish MORE men would recognize that women need to have our guard up when we're out by ourselves, for fear that someone who seems "friendly" might turn out to be a creep. Recognizing this would help keep some guys from taking it personally when a woman seems unfriendly or unwilling to engage. And, again, it's often the truth.

I think the confusion here is people thinking about two different types of public conversations. When the OP wrote:

"Whether it’s an intellectual young man on public radio recounting his misadventure when, after being inspired by a lecture about the need to create a public social space by engaging with strangers, he attempted to start a conversation with the young woman sitting next to him on a bus"

I drew a different conclusion as to the type of conversation it was referring to. I didn't get the impression that he was just saying "hello" and giving a nod of his head (which may or may not lead to later conversation depending upon the respondent), I took it to mean more of a "hello - how are you today?" and then waiting for a response (i.e. forcing someone to have a conversation whether they like it or not). They are two different types of conversations with strangers, and the first one is polite whereas the second one isn't. It's judged by a mixture of common sense and knowledge of basic good manners for a public place.

I can't honestly say whether or not the second example is a more common occurrence when it's a man addressing a woman, although I do have both most weeks as I'm a regular user of public transport. If a man were to ask me the time of a bus, or to mention that a train had pulled in (just in case it's the one I'm waiting for) then that's fine - it's then up to me to carry on the conversation or not, although a firm but polite "no thanks" or "I don't know the times, sorry" should be offered, even if you don't want to carry on with the chitchat. If, however, he wanted to talk about his day, or made a direct enquiry about me, or carried on with the chat after I've politely but shortly answered, then that's just plain rude - my life, my time, I choose whether or not to spend it in conversation and with whom!

The only instances I HAVE seen of gender-based differences in stranger conversation that has happened to me (and many other women, especially in my small town) are the various well-intentioned comments that are only given to women: "give us a smile, love!", "oh, if only I were 20 years younger", "nice to see a pretty girl on a rainy day", "cheer up, petal!" etc. etc. These are kind of old-school, usually made by older men, and only ever directed at women - these same men don't tend to make any kind of conversational overtures to young men unless it is a conversation where you need a response. What's sexist about it is the fact that apparently a response isn't actually warranted from me, I'm to look at and comment upon, whereas young men are to talk to. It seems to be dying out a bit as the generations move on, hopefully it'll just be a thing of the past soon!

So basically I think it's not so much about gender, more about politeness, although I get the impression too that a lot of guys may attribute it to gender when they put it down to the woman being scared - it genuinely is just about a person (whether male or female) who doesn't want to speak to you, or get to know you, that's their right and they don't have to give you a reason, any more than I do!

"Secondly, I don't feel the burden is on those men to turn the other cheek or assume that she has a valid reason. She's sacrificed those men's goodwill, and I don't blame them."

Wait, what? No, sorry, the burden IS on those men to "turn the other cheek." Are you suggesting they retaliate somehow because the woman they approached simply didn't feel like talking to them? That's sure what it sounds like.

I've been trying to take you seriously, but that's a really effing creepy thing to say.

Okay. It isn't nice to be rude. But it's not illegal. Suck it up, guys, and go do something else. We put up with enough abuse, catcalling, getting followed around, etc., that we have earned the right to ignore anyone we want. So maybe it's not about you. Who cares. Move on.

Of course this is a gendered issue, I don't see how it possibly couldn't be. You don't have to suck it up- or 'appreciate' anyone's 'goodwill'. We aren't a charity case, we're just human beings trying to go about our day in peace. If a man was silent, he would be branded mysterious not a cold bitch. Of course, sometimes conversation is a natural progression in human interaction, and if someone is in trouble its a great thing to try and help them. However, its generally very obvious when someone doesn't want to chat and if you try to continue engaging them (well, they didn't specifically say no...) your just being insensitive and asserting your dominance over someone (dare I go that far?).

And frankly, we do have our safety to look for. Rapists don't exactly wear shirts that say "Caution: I may sexually assault you", and frighteningly enough it doesn't take long for a stranger to go from friendly to stalker. I mean hell, I was at a club the other day when I smiled at a guy and he took it upon himself to look over our shoulders at our cameras when we took pictures and eventually made his way over to me where he proceeded to rub his groin on my leg while asking me where I was from. Needless to say, I don't even know where I stand anymore, since that guy looked extremely unassuming and not at all creepy which makes me feel like I should just stop interacting with guys in clubs altogether. Or hell, for all I know, the next time I smile at a guy on the bus maybe he'd take it upon himself to rub his groin on me then!

All I know is that when many (not all of course) guys assume that a girls lifelong dream is just to snag a man, they start to feel like they're doing us a favor by catcalling at us, groping us, randomly grinding on us and so forth. That somehow all girls as a collective entity only leave the house in the hopes of winning a husband at the nearest train station or grocery store. Its highly condescending and harmful to say the least, not to say that it isn't harmful to generalize about all men being criminals just waiting to pounce-because they aren't but you know that really doesn't have anything to do with whether I am obligated to interact with them or not. Maybe I'm a black belt in martial arts who can kick everyone's ass and I'm not afraid of getting assaulted-but that still doesn't mean I have to talk to you. Maybe I just lost my job, or I have a terminal illness or I feel really angry about be harassed on the street, and that doesn't mean I have to put up with the nauseating facade of pleasantry because I'm a young woman. It really just doesn't, there's a difference between passive dismissal and aggressively rejecting someone.

As far as the question being not responding to someone specifically because of their race? Of course it is problematic to disregard someone words because of the color of their skin-anyone can see that, but does that now mean I have to constantly engage in conversation with every single person of a minority status that I see just to prove that I'm not racist? Obviously that's problematic too. Its extremely close minded to disregard someone's voice because of their race, but its within a person's own rights to choose not to interact with a specific person if they don't want to?

Do you see where I'm going with this? It may be close minded if I disregard you because your a man, but it is in no way a violation of your basic human rights. Casual human interaction is a privilege and not a right.

I don't know if this accurately portrayed what point I was trying to make but if you need some clarification, then so be it.

Im more of a feminist than average joe. I could agree to most arguments on the feminst agenda, of pure humistic reasons. But.. as the feminist has objections about how men behave, i have objections on how women behave. As much as you hate the typical male chauvenist.. the ones seeing women beeing inferior. I hate, the much more "accepted", tendencies among women about WANTING to feel inferior in a man-woman relationship. Maybe you havent reflected over it but look around. Women hate the coward, women hate seeing their man cry, women hate sensitive men. "-Thats my role"/"-Be my rock, my protector". Feminists wants to take on all the positive things about beeing a man, but arent even considering taking on any of the hardship. Or giving away the positive perks of the woman role. Thats what makes me lose respect.

For a genuinely intelligent explanation of why some women react with suspicion and a defensive mindset to being approached by men, and why men should accept and respect that, please read KateHarding.net's Schrodinger's Rapist:

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

Just curious. How many people advocating for unconditional politeness extend that courtesy to homeless or down-on-their-luck folks asking for change? Do you even bother to look them in the eye? Do you say, "Sorry" and smile at them EVERY TIME?

I suspect that most people do what they are feeling in the moment. In a hurry? Look ahead and go on about your business. On vacation or a stroll? Throw some coins their way, etc, etc.

Entitlement is complex here. I know I'm exercising my entitlement as someone who has change to spare. And I'm not begrudging folks asking for money or who are selling stuff on the street. At the same time I will not give people the opportunity to manipulate me and harass me. Where I live there are a lot of newly immigrant males down and out selling stuff, who will smile and make a gesture to take your hand, call you "sister" "brother", "beautiful", etc. And I've seen how they'll take a polite, "no, thank you" from young men, yet follow and badger women and elderly folks who give the same answer. So just because I'm smaller and a female, I deserve a hard approach? Nope. I'm not playing that game. And yes I've been followed and threatened by men on the street selling stuff in the past, so I'm sorry if it hurts their feelings that I'm not up to engaging their curiosity or sales pitch.

I bring this scenario up, as another poster did above, because I think that whenever these posts come up, some men seem to fixate on this as some kind of "cockblock", when in reality the situation is much more complex.